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I think the comparison between the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and this “EQ Uncertainty Principle” is a perfect anecdote to share with an Elders Quorum, when the right opportunity comes up. |
Absolutely, the presence of a man changes RS; fortunately they usually stay only to make some announcement at the beginning, or to participate in some musical role, also at the beginning. My experience with male discussions, whether church, professional, political or commercial, is that men almost universally prefer to talk about theory, universal applications, general principles. Men like to suggest one-size-fits all universal solutions to problems. Men like to state a position and stick with it, arguing, presenting logic, beating each other up verbally when a discussion gets heated. Women speak that language when men are present. I do it; I’m quite fluent, but it isn’t my native tongue. Women in women’s groups of any kind almost always discuss things personally: how does this affect me, my family, my work unit, my town. We recognize that each person, family, unit, whatever, may have slightly different circumstances and may need to adapt any solutions that are proposed. We tend to negotiate more and adjust our positions as we strive for consensus, without the rhetorical head-butting that so often accompanies male discussion. (The exception to this is when a woman is attempting to establish her personal authority — in that case, she speaks like a man, rejects verbal give-and-take, doesn’t betray any personal information that lets her companions see her as anything other than “in charge.”) When even a single adult man attends RS, the group becomes an entirely mixed group. Most women will not speak up at all; when we do, we avoid being personal, we try to state “right answers” and universal principles rather than personal variations. We speak male. This from a woman who is comfortable in mixed groups and women’s groups, but NOT in a women’s group that unexpectedly becomes mixed. As comfortable as I am speaking to and in front of men in ordinary circumstances, I clam up when a man walks into RS. |
I don’t know how that smiley got in there –I was being serious about an occurrence that is sometimes very off-putting. |
Ardis, some combinations of symbols are coded to turn into smiley faces. If you go back into your post and somehow re-arrange symbols that are appearing (where the smiley-face is) you should be able to get rid of it. |
I clam up, too. But you know, Daniel, in my ward, men hardly ever come into Relief Society–they do, occasionally, but not often. I’ve never heard of a woman attending Elders Quorum. I would, just to see what happens there, but I’m sure they would think I’ve finally decided I’m the prophet. |
I mean, John. :) |
annegb, But my point is that even if you did go you wouldn’t see what goes one there because what goes on would change drastically because of your presence. |
I went to an all-male college (Wabash College) after I got thrown out of BYU. It was very different; a much more intense educational environment. As a philosophy major at BYU, the classes in my major were sometimes composed entirely of men. When there was a woman in class, it didn’t change much. But if you had one in the study group, the study group was quite different. It wasn’t a terribly obvious transformation, like making it more about socializing than studying. It’s more like this: if it was just guys at the study group, I’d throw a baseball cap on and never check to make sure my clothes weren’t wrinkled. If a chick was going to be there, I’d come my hair and grab a shirt off a hanger. But when a single sex-environment is only occasional (like it was at BYU), the changes are mostly superficial. In a full-time, single-sex environment (single sex meaning female peers — there were female professors), there was a more profound difference. |
John, this rings quite true to me, although I’d reverse the observations of your third paragraph. Every other week or so the female head of the activities committee visits the EQ to plead for participation in a raffle or bake sale. This is always accompanied by a bizarre phenomenon – the _entire_ quorum, like the Borg Collective, flirting en masse. It’s hard to describe, but it’s definitely there, punctuated by a certain raucousness that vanishes as soon as she leaves. She bears it with good humor, but it’s one of the more faintly unsettling things about going to a singles ward. |
I have never heard of women going to EQ excpet to make an announcement, but sometimes men are in RS. I actually haven’t noticed a difference if men are there or not. It seems that RS is cheesy all the time. Although it seems to me that when men are present they usually sit at the back and I’m not sure many women even notice they are there. Then again, I’m in a singles ward, maybe it’s different in family wards. |
I can’t remember ever attending a RS meeting in full (I’m not counting combined meetings). Any guys reading this ever do that? Why? Just curious. |
Just to clarify, I have only witnessed women attending EQ a handful of times. This is excluding setting apart a new EQ presidency. I am not sure why they were there. Generally they were visitors that I did not know. My wife tells me that members of the bishopric attend RS somewhat regularly. |
I asked Bill the other day if the guys would talk about different stuff if a woman were/was present and he said, “well, it would be a more interesting meeting, that’s for sure.” He thinks his priesthood meetings are boring. Then he told me about this serious discussion the guys had about how to build a cathouse for an older widow woman in our ward. They are remodeling her house, putting the laundry room upstairs, etc. She feeds a whole bunch of cats and wants the men to build a little house for her cats. That brings all kinds of thoughts to my mind and I don’t know how those guys had that discussion without cracking up. But then they are high priests. Probably most of them were asleep. |