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First, Napolean Dynamite should not be catagorized as mormon cinema. It was not about mormons, nor produced by any ‘mormon’ production company. Second, the reason mormon cinema is not sucessful is because its not very good. People talk alot of Dutcher, but frankly his films are trite. Everything from the photography to the acting to the script are just second rate. As soon as mormon indie films are produced in the quality you see elsewhere, they will make money. And you don’t need alot of money to make a good film…just a little more artistic vision and a little less canned film-school dialogue and filming (watch Primer for a really good example of an extremly low budget but excellent film). Characters make good stories and direction makes good films. There is a way for a film (or book or music or any other piece of artistic entertainment) to be distinctly mormon and about mormonism and still appeal to a wider audience. There are countless ways, they just aren’t coming from the current producers of said media. If someone made a film with the raw intensity and honesty and complexity of real life - mormon or not, well…maybe it would be good. The reason Napolean Dynamite was successful isn’t because it wasn’t specifically about mormons. Its because it had fantastic dialogue, phenomenal acting (playing appealing characters), and ground breaking photography. Dutcher’s films have not come close to having any of those characteristics. As for Singles Ward, home teachers, etc…those were just plain painful. I mean talk about bad acting and direction…they were like bad HS plays. Just not good. |
I also think Dutcher’s stuff is just kind of blah- but I have yet to see States of Grace and have heard it is much better than his previous work. It seems that he is trying to reach a broader audience and tell a story not even through a mormon lense- but a story that includes that lense just not exclusively. I think that Latter-day Saints are becoming somewhat more mainstream as characters and that may do a bit to allow more exploration of themes through a Mormon lense. However, it becomes challenging in how to do that within the broader range of film since it really is a question of “who is the audience?” A lot of themes that might be explored would require a PG-13 or R rating and thus not appeal to many members, on the other hand something being “too mormon” may turn people off. (it might not in the future- as people are familiar with a mormon lense as one potential for a general story it wouldn’t be any stranger than a catholic lense) |
I like Dutcher for breaking new ground. People can rip on God’s Army and it has its small problems, but I still like the fact that he took a project like that on - that he felt Mormon content could be the focus of a movie. Since then Mormon writers/cinematographers have thrown out all kinds of products, some of them better or worse than others. Still, the genre exists. I think it will continue. Speaking of Dutcher, I also enjoyed Brigham City. It struck me as a sort of made-for-tv-movie … but I still thought it was thought-provoking and suspenseful. I’m planning to see States of Grace soon. |
First, Napolean Dynamite should be categorized as Mormon cinema. Given that it was set in Preston, Idaho it most definitely was about Mormons, or at the very least a place with a rural Mormon culture. I could go on about instances of Mormoness in the film (the DI, a painting of the first vision, the fact that nobody swears - unheard of in this genre) but I learned on the KB thread on this subject that there isn’t any point in trying to convince a doubter. Just because it wasn’t about home teaching or church basketball (and doesn’t suck) doesn’t disqualify it. To me Dutcher’s films are fine. I thought God’s Army was much better than I expected given the subject matter and that Brigham City was even better. I haven’t seen States of Grace. We see very few movies in the theater now that we have kids. What is killing Mormon cinema is the fact that there is a stream of crap comedies coming out of Provo that has turned people off. Even if something that was excellent came out it would have to deal with the marketing situation that is currently poisonous to explicitly LDS films. I think that because of this situation that the real hope for LDS cinema in the near term is more films like Saints and Soldiers and ND that don’t wear their Mormonism on their sleeves and appeal to a wider audience. Hopefully over time the perception that Mormon films are poor quality will change and the market will open back up for films that are able to be more open about their Mormoness. |
I don’t tend to like the term "sell out" when used in regard to art (loosely defined). Nobody can define what constitutes selling out for a particular artist, because they’re not privy to the artist’s (often changing) goals. We reflexively talk about commercial success vs. artistic success as though the two rarely meet, when the truth is that neither of them is realized very often at all. Woody Allen’s "Bullet’s over Broadway" illustrates beautifully the importance of commercial success, which is arguably the best surrogate measure of how well an artistic product has connected with its audience. Thus, I tend to think that artistic success generally does overlap with commercial success. We remember all the exception, because they’re novel. We mustn’t forge that Shakespeare wrote plays that hordes of illiterates paid a penny to see. Dickens wrote novels to sell dime magazines — he came out of retirement to write Great Expectations because he was hard up for cash. I think that Dutcher is a brilliant filmmaker. More than any other filmmaker I know of, he is able to adapt the medium of film to the outlook and expectations of a very particular audience. God’s Army is the Mormon American Graffiti. If his goals are (and remain) associated with a niche audience, then artistic success will be exclusive of large commercial success. But if he choses, like Spike Lee, to change the scope of his personal success criteria, then there’s nothing inherently bad about that. It will all depend on how he feels. Sure, I’ll miss his Mormon movies just as much as I miss Woody Allen’s early, funny films (Woody Allen seems to have chosen the reverse track of most artists, and sold out to existentialism), but that’s just me being selfish. |
I’ve seen States of Grace and it’s a very well-made movie. It’s production values are *much* better than Dutcher’s previous movies. I had issues with some of the plot, though, and I suspect many Mormons will too. So far, my favorite Mormon movies are the ones I’ve been able to show my non-member parents: Napoleon Dynamite and Saints and Soldiers. And the one I can recommend to non-member music fans: New York Doll. |
Yeah, I enjoyed New York Doll, also. Does anybody like that basketball movie? It looks funny. I think Richard Dutcher is quite hot. Unless it’s Neil LaBute I’m thinking of. Either way, that guy is hot. |
DKL, when you say you miss Woody Allen’s early, funny films, I assume you are talking about such purely comic films as Bananas, Love & Death, Sleeper, Take the Money and Run, Play it Again Sam, etc. Do you also include comedy/dramas like Annie Hall and Manhattan? And does your fondness for Allen’s work end with those films? You mentioned Bullets Over Broadway, a rare latter work (90s) that is funny and somewhat original (as opposed to being derivative of earlier Allen films). Like you, I’m not a big fan of his purely existential, wannabe-Bergman films, but I have to say my favorite Allen films are Crimes & Misdemeanors, Hannah and Her Sisters, and Husbands and Wives, three films that have both existential and comic moments. Sorry for the thread jack! Answering Matt’s question… I like movies set in real (not watered down) cultures that tell universal stories. Such films are not “insider films.” One need not understand every element of the culture as depicted on the screen — i.e. what certain words or ceremonies or foods or clothing, etc. mean). But these cultural elements are interesting in and of themselves, and they add an authenticity to the film, framing an otherwise unoriginal idea in an original way. Almost any foreign film, especially more exotic foreign films from, say, China or India, is an example of this. Closer to home, I could cite such random examples as Big Night (Italian American culture and restaurant culture) to Master & Commander (nautical, Napoleonic War-era culture) to The Believer (both Jewish and Aryan Nation culture) to all three of Richard Dutchers films. Halestorm movies are “insider films” that have limited, if any, appeal for people outside of Mormon Culture. I’d also argue that such movies do not tell universal stories, but are fairy tale, escapist riffs on generic sitcom-ish scenarios. Such movies/books/stories are common to most cultures though, and they serve an important insider cultural end unto themselves, like home movies. |
May I assume, Matt B., that you have repented of your intimate familiarity with Exile from Guyville? If not, please proceed to your Bishop post haste. (Just kidding; I love Liz Phair.) I liked States of Grace, but there were aspects to the plot that were preposterous from a non-LDS perspective. I can enjoy a movie like that, since I am indeed LDS, but I can’t help but see it through the eyes of non-LDS attendees who must be saying to themselves “What the hell?” SPOILER ALERT: For example, in States of Grace the missionary trying to off himself after having sex with the cute neighbor makes sense if you are immersed in LDS culture and folkways (better to die than to come home “unclean”), but the motivation is going to be totally lost on almost anyone else, who will sit there scratching his head and saying, “huh?” (BTW, I actually liked Singles Ward, which I realize destroys whatever credibility I might have to comment on Mormon film.) |
Just a note on LDS films … my wife had a non-Mormon friend in medical school who loved watching Mormon Cinema films. She made a point of watching them. I don’t know how much they taught her about the church, but they got her interest. I think that LDS films (love them or hate them) provide another means for people to become interested in what we believe, our culture, etc. |
Matt, I had in mind the pure comedies, because I was borrowing a joke from Stardust Memories (an interesting, sometimes moving, but ultimately unsatisfying remake of Fellini’s 8 1/2), where Woody Allen plays a film maker who is struggling to deal with serious questions about life and everyone he runs into says, "I just love your films, especially the early funny ones. I actually like most Allen films. The films that you mention as your favorites are exactly my favorites. His recent Match Point was also brilliant. Though it lacked the comic moments, it’s the first film I remember seeing by him that did not have that Woody-Allen-type feel. It was to Theodore Dreiser’s An American Tragedy what Crimes and Misdemeanors was to Crime and Punishment. I never tire of watching Annie Hall or Manhatten. Manhattan Murder Mystery is as outrageously funny as any of his "early funny films," and Mighty Aphrodite is just brilliant and conveys an unusual amount of warmth — especially a Woody Allen film. As far as this being a threadjack, perhaps it is. But it’s proof that Matt’s got a really great post when it begins to evoke opinions and feelings from a broader field of topics than those strictly confined to point he touches directly. I must admit that I’d never heard of Liz Phair before this post. And I think that The Singles Ward is a thoroughly funny film. It’s the subsequent comedies that have gone downhill and become increasingly formulaic and contrived. |
I love Liz Phair too, but I haven’t bought (or really listened to) anything since Exile and Whip Smart. I’d put both of those albums in the general category of “great music/art,” not unlike, say, P.J. Harvey, or even Sarah McLachlan; whereas I’d classify the work of Alanis, Meredith Brooks, Joan Osborne, and many other Lilith Fairers as, excuse the crudeness of the term, “vagina music.” The Hillary Duffs and Avril Lavinges strike me as Vagina Music 2: Electric Boogaloo. Why Liz would stoop to that level is beyond me. Since DKL and Kevin Barney have gone on record as Singles Ward fans, I guess its safe to come out of the closet myself… my wife and I laughed our asses off the first (and only) time we saw it. The few Halestorm movies we’ve seen since then were so excruciatingly awful, I’ve wondered if my positive reaction to Singles Ward was a case of bad Red Vines? DKL, yes, I’m familiar with the Stardust reference/joke, one that continues to be repeated ad nauseum since. I thought Match Point was a nice return to form, though it mined similar territory as Crimes & Misdemeanors, but not quite as well. I actually prefer Manhattan Murder Mystery over most of his early comedies. The back-to-back-to-back of Husbands & Wives (1992), Manhattan Murder Mystery (93), and Bullets Over Broadway (94) is as fine a run as Woody has ever had. Match Point notwithstanding, his output since Deconstructing Harry in ‘97 has been mostly cringe-inducing pabulum. |
Not living on the Wasatch Front, I don’t find out about all the Mormon movies. Maybe I’m just seeing the good ones–in fact, I think that’s almost certainly the case–but the last few I’ve seen have actually been pretty good. I’d put the following in this category: Saints and Soldiers, New York Doll, Brigham City, and Pride and Prejudice. On the other hand, the recent Johnny Lingo movie wasn’t very good. I’m not sure where the Dutcher backlash comes from because Bringham City is the only one of his movies I’ve seen, but I thought it was pretty well done and had a broad appeal while also offering a nice subtle critique of Utah Mormonism. Does The Other Side of Heaven count as Mormon cinema? It seems like it should, but it had a pretty big budget. It even had Anne Hathaway. I thought that one was pretty good too. I did see Singles Ward and I definitely would not put it anywhere near the “good” category. Hated it. I loved Napoleon Dynamite, but don’t see anything particularly Mormon about it. |
Matt Thurston: DKL, yes, I’m familiar with the Stardust reference/joke, one that continues to be repeated ad nauseum since I apologize for contributing to the unfortunate state of affairs relative to this joke/reference. Matt Thurston: Match Point notwithstanding, his output since Deconstructing Harry in ‘97 has been mostly cringe-inducing pabulum. I think that’s a bit harsh. Deconstructing Harry was awful — worse than September. But Small Time Crooks was a good comedy. The Curse of the Jade Scorpion was a fun ride, not quite as good as Radio Days, but in the same league. Hollywood Ending had its moments, in all a tidy and watch-able little movie. Woody Allen is, in my opinion, the most talented director in Hollywood right now. When you write and directed 40+ movies, you’re gonna make some bad ones. Even Shakespeare wrote some lousy, tiresome plays (have your read Love’s Labour’s Lost?). With an output of close to a movie a year, you can’t fault him for having a few off-years. It’s not like he, like most movie makers, produces a film every 3 years, so that a run of three films means that the last good film was more than a decade ago. |
I think the debate over whether Napoleon Dynamite is ‘Mormon’ is fascinating, because it gets to the heart about what Mormon art is. Does it have to be explicitly about Mormon themes? Is it enough to simply have a picture of the First Vision on somebody’s wall? I think it’s about Mormon culture; not necessarily about Mormon theology, though the Mormon issues it addresses are buried deep enough that even Mormons can argue about whether they’re there. Dave #5 - I don’t think the question here is between commercial and artistic success; rather, it’s a question about audience and the possibilities of commercial success, something that applies to ‘Church Ball’ as much as to ‘States of Grace.’ I like Matt T’s insider-film concept; I’d also note, of the examples he listed, only Master and Commander did much boxoffice, and I’d question whether it was a true ‘insider’ film, because it mines territory not unfamiliar to most of us - it’s a war movie. The Believer, though, is a great example. Greg - I think TOSOH is definitely Mormon, though I think it’s like Napoleon - it’s more about Mormon culture than the Mormon faith. I disliked Singles Ward overall, though I liked the exuberance of it. And Crimes and Misdemeanors is Woody Allen’s best movie. |
Matt B said: “I like Matt T’s insider-film concept; I’d also note, of the examples he listed, only Master and Commander did much boxoffice, and I’d question whether it was a true ‘insider’ film, because it mines territory not unfamiliar to most of us - it’s a war movie.” You are probably right. I was probably more influenced by the books by Patrick O’Brian that the movie was based on, books that assume the reader has a bosun’s knowledge of every sail, spar, knot, gun, in short, every last part of an early 1800s man o’ war. The movie captures a little of that, but it is still far more accessible to a mainstream audience. I’m sure there are better examples of American films that mine lesser-known details to specific cultures, but I couldn’t think of any off the top of my head. |
At least I found someone to trade Woody Allen opinions with… It’s been awhile since I’ve seen Deconstructing Harry, but I remember liking it. It remember it being darker and angrier than a lot of Woody films. No Woody film is worse than September, except maybe Anything Else. I thought Hollywood Ending and Melinda and Melinda were poor films, but I’ll grant that Jade Scorpion and Small Time Crooks (and even Sweet and Lowdown) have their moments. I’d still consider them “lesser Woody” though. Radio Days is charming. Haven’t mentioned Purple Rose of Cairo yet, but it is probably in my top 5 or 6. I wouldn’t call Woody Allen the greatest director working today, but I’d definitely put him in my top five for the past 40 years. He’s certainly the most prolific writer/director of the past 4 decades, maybe ever. And he’s an American original, the likes of which we may never see again, though many have tried… Speaking of which, have you ever watched any of Whit Stillman’s movies? Particularly Metropolitan or Barcelona? Of the many writer/directors who have been influenced by Woody (i.e. dialogue-driven films, somewhat neurotic, overly intellectual characters, lots of naval gazing, etc.), I think his films are the best. Noah Baumbach is pretty good too. Ed Burns and Kevin Smith are two examples of bad Woody clones. |
Jumping into this thread way too late… @ Matt B, who said,
I think there is actually a third approach, which most people seem to forget when they talk about Mormon cinema. Just tell good stories. Actually, this may fall outside of the purview of what you’re talking about, depending on your particular definition of Mormon cinema. Still, I’ve long thought, almost since its inception, the definitions of “Mormon cinema” bandied about by various parties are ambiguous and troublesome, as you’ve acknowledged at least in part:
Back in the 90s, when I started thinking about the cinema seriously, including the problems present in bringing Mormon film to a global audience, I concluded there was nothing necessarily intrinsically worthwhile in making a film solely because it was about something Mormon-related. In other words, if the story is interesting and it happens to be Mormon, by all means make it. But make it because it’s interesting and compelling, not just because it’s Mormon themed, etc. I believe I am accurate in saying this is how some of the filmmakers of Nappy D. feel, since I attended a panel featuring one of the producers and an assistant director who, in essence, said the same thing. Still it appears that many, maybe most, current Mormon filmmakers making Mormon-themed films (however you view that), are a little too conspicuous in what they create — creating films that draw attention to themselves. It seems we have seen a wormhole open up to propagate the Mormon film species, and amassed enough propaganda for a small torrent. My feelings are this will change with time, but I have to admit, I’m still waiting for a renaissance. I fear I’ve gone OFF TOPIC. But this was, after all, right up my alley. By the way, your math was truly funny, but I suspect it’s just the wrong equation. In other words, the Liz Phair problem is not universal. |
Matt, whatever else we may disagree on, we’re of one mind about the fact that September was a truly bad movie. Purple Rose of Cairo is a great one — the one movie where Mia Farrow is actually likable. I think the most underrated Woody Allen movie is Broadway Danny Rose, which (like Mighty Aphrodite) has a good deal of warmth, and unlike his other movies has a lot of heart — I mean, really, how often has Woody Allen made a movie about forgiveness? I haven’t seen Metropolitan or Barcelona. I’ve seen a few Ed Burns films, and they’ve struck me as lackluster. Kevin Smith is intermittently very funny, but intensely overbearing even at his best. The only Noah Baumbach film I’ve seen is The Life Aquatic, which I very much enjoyed. (Here’s a review that I wrote about it as Miranda PJ when I was blogging at Banner of Heaven. Incidentally, the thread that follows contains one of the best putdowns that of DKL that Miranda PJ ever fired off.) I’d definitely put Woody Allen at the top of the film industry. His good movies have endured, and are as good today as when they first appeared. Annie Hall is one of the 2 or 3 most memorable good films of the 70s. Crimes and Misdemeanors is clearly one of the 2 best movies of the 80s (the other being Branaugh’s Henry V). By the mid-90s, my wife and I had children, and my awareness of movies in general has diminished greatly, so I can’t say with any confidence how important his contributions have been relative to other movies. |
Agree about Broadway Danny Rose. Your mention of it reminds me that I need/want to see it again. Neither of us mentioned Zelig, a groundbreaking film at its time, and probably the Woody film I’ve seen more than any other. Well, definitely check out Metropolitan (first), and Barcelona (second). I’d be very surprised if both films don’t charm your pants off. From Baumbach, check out Kicking and Screaming (first) (and no, not the Will Ferrell soccer movie) and then The Squid and the Whale, probably my favorite movie from last year (2005). Mr. Jealousy is pretty good too. The Life Aquatic has its moments, but it is more of a Noah Baumbach/Wes Anderson collaboration and not indicative of Baumbach’s other films. Loved your review though! |