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Very, very interesting post, and a topic that I think we sometimes gloss over in the Church, due to our focus on Gethsemane. I think I see reason to agree with all four of your posits, just maybe not entirely in the context you’ve framed them. That is to say, I also agree with some of your case-against-case arguments. There is another (fifth) way — that I’ve always found compelling — of looking at the ignominy, prophecy, test, and rendition of Jesus’s martyrdom.
This may actually fall into your fourth posit, the dramatic rise and black moment in Act II. But it seems to span all four. It becomes a metaphor for how we shall be raised from the dead. Actually, there’s an even simpler (sixth) way of looking at it all. It’s just the way it happened, and God had the foreknowledge to use it for all his purposes. I think this must be partially true, in fact, given God grants agency and lets us choose how to use or abuse it. |
I would add that unless He suffered in such a way, how could we say He descended below all things, since people throughout history have been brutally treated and killed. I also think there is significance in that He died in a way that left marks that He has kept so we can recognize Him when He comes again. |
I tend to lean towards John Yoder’s ideas in “Politics of Jesus”. He argues that the saviors death on the cross is the perfect example of how we deal with the evils of the world. i.e. we do not run to the desert like the essenes and check out of society, quietism. Nor do we take up arms and overthrow the powers violently such as the zealots and militant Jews of his day desired. We face he evils of the world, we condemn them and we accept the consequences even that of the cross. The cross is the burden we may be required to carry if we truly are pacifists (literally peacemakers in latin). If we truly stand up for the oppressed, condemn those in power, stand up for the prisoners, and proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord (ie. jubilee year). See Luke 4 for what his mission about in part. I find in the cross a dramatic, beautiful example of what we are called to do in this life. Follow him, even to the cross if necessary |
I have viewed the Atonement as beginning in the garden and then continuing through to the cross–with various “grand finales” of triumph along the way. That Christ applied the principles of forgiveness and love throughout the physical ordeal seems crucial to his overall mission. There is also the moment when Christ cries out on the cross when feeling forsaken, something he did not do in the garden. I admit that I don’t really understand what he meant by that, but I tend to believe Talmage’s explanation in “Jesus the Christ”: that the Father withdrew (again, I don’t know what that means) from Christ for some period (I think there was a discussion of this in the Bloggernacle recently, but I was busy and missed it). So regarding your four points, I agree that 1 and 2 are too problematic, and #4 is inconsistent: when was Christ’s mortal life ever about show-boating? So I guess my belief is a mix of #3 and your reason (#5). |
I am not sure that I have any answers to this question. However, I am almost certain that Josh M.’s proposition cannot be the case. If it is the case that we are merely supposed to see evil, acknowledge it, condemn, but then suffer the consequences of it is something that few are ready to claim is God’s will. Certainly the Anti- Nephi Lehies are one example of a group of people willingly suffering at the hands of evil. However, they had a prior reason for doing so. By the way, I cannot think of a plausible reason why they thought that their continued penance was necessary, unless someone had some idea that maybe their ruthless deaths would lead others to the truth. However, I do not think that most Mormons or the Christian world at large thinks that death is the proper course to take when evil comes upon us. We see the various generals, for example, in the Book of Mormon, going to great pains to avoid needless death and suffering, but they go to war. Consider part of Moroni’s speech when hoisted the Title of Libery: “Surely God shall not suffer that we, who are despised because we take upone us the name of Christ, shall be trodden down and destroyed, until we bring it upon us by our own transgression” (Alma 46: 18). And this description of Moroni: “He was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and he had sworn with an oath to defend his people, his rights, and his country, and his religion, even to the loss of blood” (48:18). So what is my position on this? I don’t know. I think the sentiment that Josh M depicts is interesting and even inspiring, but I think that generally speaking the followers of Christ have a commitment to fight evil. In that sense, I conceive of the crucifixion as a rather unique event. |
wayne, I do not disagree that we have a commitment to fight evil. however, I believe that christ shows us how we fight evil. not by sword. in my opinion the cross is both the culmination of the atonement for our sins and the defining example of non-violence and love. and as to war in the BOM most of the so called righteous wars occur before christs coming and new law. mormon after all this bloodshed and looking over the nephite/lamanite history could only conclude that we should never take up weapons save God commanded it. mormon 7:4. I also find it it significant that the only example of a how a God would live is Christ, a loving, non-violent, but still actively opposed to injustice and evil. dkl, you state christ did not die for our sins, literally speaking. I know many lds have the atonement end in the garden, but it seems the scriptures bear out it was not finished until christ stated so. |
Wayne, you stated “However, I do not think that most Mormons or the Christian world at large thinks that death is the proper course to take when evil comes upon us.” I believe Christs example is that we confront evil and do everything to oppose it. However death is better than being a militant, better than taking life. I find that a call to be a pacificist, which I see in Christ’s example is not easy, requires much more thought, much more suffering at times, and much more of God’s grace. Neverthless that is how I see his life and crucifixion. I find myself much more sypathetic to Quaker and Anabaptist traditions in this. And frankly, the traditions of the early Christian church which was extremely pacifist even suffering death rather than serve militarily. For them the cross was often martydom rather than take life. |
DKL, You’re starting from a blanket assumption that Jesus did in fact perform the atonement in Gethsemane. Then you’re asking what role the cross played. I think you have to bolster your assumption first. Yes, D&C 19 gets a lot of the credit for this notion, but I think we’re keen on Gethsemane mostly because it offers a nice reason for cross-aversion we inherited from a certain strain of icon-hating Protestantism. (BTW – what do you make of the idea that the “bleeding at every pore” line is a later scribal insertion?) So, why the cross? No idea. I will just say that for whatever reason it is the tokens of crucifixion that are made into temple sacraments. Also, Jesus only said, “it is finished” when moments from death on the cross. |
We need for Him to have died in the most brutally humiliating fashion imaginable. This validates our claim of His greatness by depicting a God who is forgiving enough to save a creation that would execute Him. It is what imbues the Christ tradition with it’s power, with its dramatic force. This is nice. There’s a heartbreaking poignancy to the Jewish God suffering as he did. |
As Mormons we claim that the atonement covers both physical and spiritual death, yet we make a distinction between the two and even further distinctions about who will benefit from the conquering of physical death (everybody) and who will fully benefit from the triumph over spiritual death (only those that inherit the celestial kingdom.) I’ve somehow been of the impression that the garden was more about spiritual death and the cross more about physical death. Reading this post and the comments that have followed I’ve realized that I don’t have any basis for this thought. Perhaps it is the Mormon emphasis on the garden as the scene of suffering for our sins while the cross was the scene of Christ’s physical death. But I’m not aware of any scriptures that call out this distinction. It is also interesting to me that the wider Christian world puts so much emphasis on the cross, which in the thinking I’ve outlined above, represents the freer gift of the resurrection, while putting less emphasis on suffering in the garden. Meanwhile Mormons seem to do the opposite, concentrating on triumph over sin and paying relatively little attention to the triumph over death. Perhaps this stems from the second article of faith, which seems to free us from worrying about the fact that Adam and Eve brought physical death into the world but places the burden of our own sins on our shoulders, which we then transfer to our Saviour. |
I think Ronan’s right that we are cross averse, probably out of a desire to make ourselves separate. But there is good reason to beleive that Gethsemane wasn’t complete without the cross. The doctrine and covenants repeatedly uses the phrase “crucified for the sins of the world.” Paul certainly makes a big deal of the cross and says very little about the Garden. But that still leaves the question: why the cross, why not some other kind of death? Of course I don’t know. But my opinion is that because it was the most humiliating thing the world had to offer at that time, that was what was used. But there is a certain imagery to it. The whole idea of being lifted up that he might draw all men unto him. The cross makes this a very real thing, not just a metaphor. As a tangent, it’s interesting to look at the way the Book of Mormon treats the cross. Nephi sees it in vision and mentions it. Then he uses it as a metaphor for the beleivers, as in “bear the crosses of the world.” Jacob mentions it, saying even that all men should “view his death, and suffer his cross.” King Benjamin and Abinadi use the word “crucify.” But then the cross is absent from the Book of Mormon until the Savior talks about it. Was it somehow lost to post-Jacob societies, or did they de-emphasize it, or what? |
Why Was Jesus Crucified? Why not? It happens to be what they did back then. If they happened to have a technology that was more torturous they probably would have used it and our symbology would revolve around that instead. It just so happens that crucifixion is pregnant with symbolism that’s convenient to our theology. Unless I’m not understanding the question DKL. I mean, are you asking why was Jesus murdered by his own people in such a public, brutal manner (as opposed to dying in his sleep) or are you asking why his form of death was specifically a cross (as opposed to disembowlment)? |
I’m with Ronan on this one. Every time this subject comes up in the bloggernacle, I ask what the basis is for the belief that the atonement took place in the garden, not on the cross. (For example, see this times and seasons thread.) So far nobody has ever really addressed this question. It is clearly a folk belief that is floating around, but I still don’t know where it comes from. Has anybody studied this? As I pointed out at the previous post, here are a list of things that mention or allude to the crucifixion but do not mention the garden: I think that’s a pretty impressive list that can hold it’s own against D&C 19. |
Rhapsidiomite and Rusty, it may well be the case that it simply happened. But if it was a mere historical accident, then it shouldn’t be treated as an essential part of his story, nor should it occupy such a central place in Christology. There’s a sense in which it is considered necessary (or at least inevitable) that Jesus be crucified. I suppose what I’m asking was why do we approach crucifixion as though it were an essential part of His ministry. Josh M, I agree with Wayne L. that we are morally obliged to fight evil with all our might — even to take up arms when necessary. You state, “the scriptures bear out it was not finished until christ stated so.” Where does Christ say that the atonement is over? |
JKC: But then the cross is absent from the Book of Mormon until the Savior talks about it. Was it somehow lost to post-Jacob societies, or did they de-emphasize it, or what? The accepted view is that after Joseph lost the 116 pages, he continued translating Mosiah, and he went on to translate the 1st Nephi through Jacob only after finishing the rest of the Book of Mormon. So a naturalistic take would make Jacob the doctrinal culmination of the Book of Mormon, and it would view Book of Mormon’s narrative continuity as running from Mosiah through Moroni and then on to Nephi through Jacob — and not simply from Nephi through Moroni. |
BrianJ and Ronan, I think that it’s a common understanding that the atonement did continue to the crucifixion. The atonement may well have taken some amount of time, but it would have completed no matter where Jesus ended up. Let’s supposed that the atonement took 24 hours. If Jesus had gone home and gone to bed after praying in the Garden, then he would have continued the atonement for another day while resting in bed. Why crucifixion? And if crucifixion, then why consider this to be somehow essential to the Christ story. Ronan and JKC, I agree with arj‘s evaluation of our Mormon focus on the cross. I’ve always taken this focus on the Resurrected Jesus to reflect the universalism which is latent in our theology (though usually ignored). Specifically, while everyone is universally saved from death by virtue of Christ’s breaking of the bonds of death, only the righteous obtain complete expiation for their sins. By focussing on the resurrection, we emphasize the universal element of salvation that Christ offers. Ronan, please note that I expressly stipulate that I’m working within the framework of “accepted Mormon theology.” I’m not personally convinced that this is any more essential to Mormon theology than Joseph Smith’s assertion that Judas was actually hanged as a traitor by Peter. You may well be right to turn the question that I ask on it’s head; instead of “Why crucifixion?” you ask, “Why Gesthemane?” There’s D&C 19:18, that you point out. There’s also Mosiah 3:7. But even the JST of Luke 22:44 relates merely that Jesus’s sweat was similar to drops of blood. Regarding the notion that the Luke 22:44 is a scribal insertion: Except for some very late additions (e.g., doxologies), it’s a mistake to consider anything in the New Testament to be less “authentic” than anything else. Since there is no such thing as the New Testament, there’s no meaningful sense in which variant readings can be considered an “addition” or “alteration.” There’s basically just 10s of thousands of variant readings, a bunch of traditional renderings, and some rules of thumb that scholars use to sort out the rest. What’s the point in quibbling over a few passages that appear one place and not another? By this criteria that seeks to dispose of passages disputed in the early church, we’ll need to dispose of the entirety of Hebrews and John’s Revelation. |
ed johnson, (are you the real ed johnson?) I don’t see the Gethsemane emphasis as being essential to Mormon theology, and it wouldn’t challange my faith if a GA referred to the atonement as though it happened on the cross. But I do think that it’s more than simply a folk belief. The Utah Lighthouse Ministry has a tract online that quotes the Encyclopedia of Mormonism (this may well have been written after the famous incident in which Lou Midgley showed up unannounced at Lighthouse Ministries and rudely interrupted George Smith having fondue with the Tanners).
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m&m: I would add that unless He suffered in such a way, how could we say He descended below all things, since people throughout history have been brutally treated and killed. I think that there’s merit in this position. Regarding your further comment, I have another post planned about Christ’s scars. (Sorry your comment ended up in the spam queue.) |
There’s so much paradox and irony in Christ’s story, and it’s all part of what makes it so powerful. The creator of the world is born in a manger. The carpenter’s son is nailed to a cross. The King of Kings with a crown of thorns. We are healed by his stripes. Etc. |
I think Susan is dead on. The crucifixion is the ultimate paradox, and it is only that through proving the paradox – following it to the end and emerging triumphant still – that the cycle of sin can be repudiated. Through the crucifixion the punishing God of the Old Testament himself repents; the almighty God abdicates power and submits himself to unrighteous dominion (which is really the root of all sin) but in so doing emerges triumphant. The latter point is key, I think – the Crucifixion shows us what sin really is – it’s about power and idolatry, allowing our true relationships to be hindered by anything we human beings might create. In this symbolic sense, it’s ironic Christ was accused of blasphemy. |
DKL, #16: “The atonement may well have taken some amount of time, but it would have completed no matter where Jesus ended up…then he would have continued the atonement for another day while resting in bed.” No. Here’s my understanding: The Atonement required both the garden and the cross. Now by “garden” I mean “a place of solitude wherein Christ could meditate;” and by “cross” I mean “a painful and humiliating death.” To be explicit: if Christ had not been killed then the Atonement would have been incomplete. “Why crucifixion? And if crucifixion, then why consider this to be somehow essential to the Christ story.” I’m not saying that cruxifiction, per se, was essential (a la Rusty’s comment #12), though I like Susan’s point about irony (#19) (and would add garden of Eden/Gethsemane to her list). |
One more comment (actually, a question): I have heard that all of the agony of the garden returned to Jesus when he was on the cross, so that on the cross he suffered both the physical and the spiritual pains of the Atonement—and it was this that prompted the “why hast thou forsaken me?” Has anyone else heard this and does anyone know what this is based on? (I don’t really believe it, seeing that I can’t find support for it in the scriptures.) Thanks. |
22 – BrianJ I think that comes from the following (or something similar): Spoken with a loud voice, these words, quoted from David’s Messianic prophecies, are the fourth utterance from the cross. “What mind of man can fathom the significance of that awful cry? It seems, that in addition to the fearful suffering incident to crucifixion, the agony of Gethsemane had recurred, intensified beyond human power to endure. In that bitterest hour the dying Christ was alone, alone in most terrible reality. That the supreme sacrifice of the Son might be consummated in all its fulness, the Father seems to have withdrawn the support of His immediate Presence, leaving to the Savior of men the glory of complete victory over the forces of sin and death.” (Talmage, p. 661.) |
BrianJ, #22: Christ’s haveing suffered equally on the cross and in Gethsemane was an idea put forward, I believe, by Bruce R. McConkie in his final General Conference talk:
It does give one pause. |
I’ve always believed that Gethsemane and the cross were a part of the atonement. I agree with the idea that Jesus suffered on the cross so that he would experience horrors that others had experiened – betrayal, unjust judgment, beatings, execution by torture. To be the Savior of all people, it makes sense that he would have to experience the very worst that others have experienced. DKL, I’ve never heard before the assertion that Peter hanged Judas for being a traitor. Where is that found? |
DKL, That’s an interesting take about Book of Mormon translation. For me, it raises another question, then: if Jacob is the doctrinal culmination of the Book of Mormon, does this mean that Nephi and Jacob’s willingness to mention and emphasize the cross is also a doctrinal culmination? This would explain why the cross is mentioned so much in the D&C (comparatively speaking), I suppose. What would cause the shift in emphasis? Are there naturalistic or doctrinal explanations, other than that Joseph was merely doing some doctrinal tinkering? Unrelatedly, I’ve always found it a bit ironic when Mormons say that we don’t talk about the cross because we want to focus on the resurrection rather than on his death. They seem ignorant that for the rest of the Christian world the cross (as opposed to the crucifix) represents the resurrection, not the crucifixion, which is why it is an empty cross. By the way, anyone familiar with “the dream of the rood”? |
I ordered several books last week, The Gospels of Thomas and Mary and other gnostic gospels. I’ve heard that they shed light on Judas. I’ve seen Judas as a tragic figure, more sad and misled than evil. In fact the whole story never quite made sense to me. I can see Peter getting mad and hanging Judas, though. I agree with Susan’s statement. I’ve never felt repulsed by the cross, either. I attended many churches before committing to Mormonism and the cross is a sacred symbol in other religions. I think our rejection of those types of symbols has more to do with a supposed rejection of paganism and other religions than the cross itself. David, I’ve wondered the same thing myself. I don’t have an answer, but the very fact that it happened makes it significant because God doesn’t do superfluous. |
Haven’t had time to read the discussion (which looks good but…). Here’s my take. Joseph Smith said that a testimony is not “of force” until the testator is dead. So there you have it, I guess. |
Why was Jesus crucified? Well, that’s how the Roman’s practiced capital punishment. When I read Jesus the Christ, the injustice of Christ’s treatment was more shocking than the brutality of being scourged and crucified. Others have died in a more brutal fashion. However, after the injustice that Christ experienced, at the final judgment, who will be able to say that Christ’s judgments are not just? We must plead for mercy from Him who was subjected to the greatest injustice |
Speaking of paradoxes, could the Romans have simply decided to throw Jesus in prison? Or release him? Could the atonement have been frustrated by not executing him? Who “inspired” the crucifixion anyhow? This of course parallels the same questions about who inspired the fall… |
There may be some important sympolism in Christ being crucified that I am overlooking. However, I think its more important why Christ was sentenced to death then how. No other injustice can come close to the God of Isreal being sentenced to death for blasphemy. So, at the final judgement, when Christ grants his mercy, who will be able to stand up and declare that mercy is robbing justice? Noone. |
Susan M, you make a very good point about the how the story unfolds. That’s an interesting analysis of the narrative. I don’t normally think of God as a story teller, though I do often think of the scriptures as a story. I must say, I smile when I think of Him sitting at a typewriter with a cigar, the Eternal hands in a galloping accross the keys in a flurry of strokes. Then, he stops for a moment, taps the ashes from His cigar, and adopts a puzzled look. Suddenly He puts the cigar back in his mouth. He nods and takes a self-satisfied puff of the cigar. He motions with His hands, and He shouts, “I’ve got it — the perfect ending. An apocalypse!” Matt B, am I wrong to say that you’re the first commenter who seems to like argument #4? Your restatement of it certainly sounds more compelling than mine. BrianJ: The Atonement required both the garden and the cross. Now by “garden†I mean “a place of solitude wherein Christ could meditate;†and by “cross†I mean “a painful and humiliating death.†To be explicit: if Christ had not been killed then the Atonement would have been incomplete. If all that was needed was a painful death, then couldn’t he have just gotten run over by a chariot? |
Rhapsidiomite, that’s an interesting quote. I heard that talk, but I didn’t remember that portion. I wonder what the basis of his story is, since it’s certainly extra-scriptural in the sense that it goes beyond the account given in the New Testament. Danithew, in Richard S. Van Wagoner’s Sidney Rigdon: A Portrait of Religious Excess (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1994), p218:
Van Wagoner sources this to Reed Peck’s “Mormon’s So Called” (Quincy, IL: 1839), p7. Obviously, this idea never really caught on. JKC, just to be clear, I don’t myself take Jacob to be the doctrinal culmination of the Book of Mormon; I don’t tend to find it to be compatible with my conviction that the Book of Mormon is of ancient origin. Other than that, it’s certainly a plausible theory if you’re looking for a naturalistic explanation; I suppose your suggestion that the Mormon aversion to the cross is just a consequence of Joseph Smith’s doctrinal tinkering would be the approach most consistent with it. I’d never heard of the Dream of the Rood. Interesting. Those interested in reading it can find it here. annegb, you should find those books interesting. From a Mormon point of view, some of the New Testament pseudopigripha is especially interesting, because during the early Utah phase, several general authorities looked to discredited gospels and early efforts at Christian history to offer insights that became part of the folk theology of Mormonism. I’m not so sure I agree with you about God not doing superfluous. I don’t tend to be the kind of person who thinks that God does everything for a reason. Earlier this year, our gospel doctrine teacher asked why Elijah showed up at that particular widow’s house. I raised my hand, and I was going to say, “dumb luck.” Good thing the teacher didn’t call on me, because it turned out to be the exact opposite answer she was looking for. |
“dumb luck” good one. :) I’ve got to remember that. |
Seth R, that’s an interesting take. It underdetermines crucifixion as a form of death. Part of deal is this: We often talk about Joseph’s death, but not in any way that makes it sound like his dying in Carthage or being shot by a mob was essential to his ministry. He might just as well have been shot by a sniper while standing in the Nauvoo town square for all it mattered to his mission. But we do seem to approach the crucifixion as though it were central to Jesus’s ministry. David Brosnahan: I tend to agree with you that it was more important than Jesus die dramatically than that he die dramatically in any specific way, and for largely the same reason you put forth. |
DKL, I don’t know that Mormonism per se approaches the crucifixion that way. I think it’s mostly inherited baggage from our “traditional Christian” roots. They most certainly do focus on the ordeal on the cross as the “main event” in the Atonement. |
Hi DKL, it is an interesting and good question to think about. Crucifixion is due to the Romans. The shedding of blood and death of Jesus is a central ministry. And the symbolism works its way all the way from Genesis to Revelation. |
David, #31: very interesting thoughts. I’ll remember that long after I’ve forgotten to give you credit. m&m, #23; Rhapsidiomite, #24: thanks for finding the quote! DKL, #32: A chariot? Probably not public (humiliating) enough. It also wouldn’t allow for all the injustice he suffered–and more importantly, that he allowed himself to suffer. Again, I don’t think cruxifiction per se was necessary: hanging, flogging, etc (gee, thanks DKL, you’ve made me feel very morbid) would have been essentially the same. Remember that the people chose Barabas over Jesus; you wouldn’t get that if he were accidentally trampled or secretly assassinated. (Of course, if some other method of execution had been predicted then all the original prophesies/symbols would have been changed, but that’s a minor detail.) |
I agree with M&M. |
Some things can’t explained by logic. And my answer is to redeemed our sins. Peace out! |