First, let me say that this is just my opinion–to my knowledge, this has never been fleshed out in official church sources. But my take is this: the main problem with tattoos, piercings, etc., isn’t so much that they disfigure the body but rather that they are social signals as to the beliefs of the person involved. Just like the church’s big anti-beard push in the 60s said “we are not hippies” the anti-piercings push now says “we are not grunge” or whatever they are calling themselves these days.

My beef against elective plastic surgery is not that it is disfigurement but rather that you have to be pretty dang uncharitable to think that X thousand dollars is better spent lifting your butt than feeding a village in India.

ARJ – I would argue braces are to fix a defect and so would teeth whiteners (I know some would argue small breasts are a defect that must be fixed, but I don’t think so). Good question on hair plugs – as a bald male I would say not necessary and in the same bucket as tattoos, etc…

JMS – Great point on the $$ piece of it – this relative of mine has spent over $100,000 on plastic surgery – for what? So they can look nice in their casket at death??? Not sure about your first statement about social signals – doesn’t elective cosmetic surgery also say I want to be like the models/actresses/actors out there – I don’t see any difference except the Church leaders have not said much about it.

Apparently the “you could use that money to feed a village in India” argument works against butt lifts for humans but not against face lifts for downtown malls. Interesting.

Julie M. Smith obviously doesn’t realize that plastic surgery is perfectly safe means of enhancing aesthetic appeal and a boon to emerging economies. I really have to wonder how much of her discretionary income goes to helping out villages in India.

Great discussion
Rusty – I agree – perhaps the foundation could be Mormons Against Cosmetic Elective Surgery – MACE for short…

Beijing/Geoff J – These are two very different topics – while I may have issues with the downtown renovations, it really is a different subject.

Veritas – I certainly think you have some great points here. We are not here to conform to some norm or perfect our bodies using unnatural methods. I would agree that elective cosmetic surgery is certainly trying to be sexy and that it really is not something we should be doing. Of course my relatives plastic surgeon is in her ward and happily feeds her addiction by giving her all the surgery she wants.

The argument against plastic surgery is that it is actually surgery and thus more extreme and dangerous. But I think that in many (but not all) cases there really are disfigurements being improved. Some people have ugly noses, sagging breasts and so forth. It will improve appearance even if one can debate whether it should be done in a cost/benefit analysis.

The bigger problem is that many people going for surgery have severe problems with feelings of self-worth. Surgery isn’t going to fix those psychological problems. That’s why some advocate real psychological counseling before getting surgery.

But to argue that it is inappropriate seems silly. I tend to agree with the “body is a temple” mentality. I’d just note that temples actually are fairly conservatively decorated. (All complaints against chandeliers notwithstanding) Many folks getting tons of surgery end up looking like a stripper and not exactly what I’d call a temple. (Well unless its a temple to some fertility goddess)

The whole earrings and tattoo bit is more interesting. I was actually a tad surprised when Pres. Hinkley made those comments given how ubiquitous tattoos and multiple earrings are. I just don’t think they have the social meaning that they did even 10 years ago. The late 90′s made them pretty mainstream. It’s pretty hard to see how a navel ring is an act of defiance. Is this a generational gap issue? I don’t know. (And for the record I’m not advocating ignoring the prophet on the issue)

The big problem with many piercings and tattoos is that they are kind of making quasi-permanent disfigurements. I always wonder what those girls getting nipple pierceings and navel piercings are going to do after having a baby. Likewise a tattoo might be pretty cool when you are 22 but look pretty silly when you are 35. Yes you can get them removed, but it’s hard and painful. Likewise the holes left by piercings don’t heal that quickly.

As someone who works for the largest cosmetic company in the world I can pretty authoritatively say that it’s all about selling product. Sex, self-esteem, individualism, self-expression, etc. are all just convenient vehicles for selling colored dirt. Telling women that they aren’t naturally beautiful enough so they should buy this product is repulsive to me. But I love it when my wife puts on some colored eye makeup. Just one of many of my personal contradictions.

Clay Gorton (“Gramps”) has opined on this question, mentioning that some cosmetic surgery may be in response to feelings of inferiority (though I suppose it’s debatable whether cosmetic surgery is the answer.)

Why would body piercing be looked down upon and breast implants be viewed as acceptable?

Also:

Is there an official Mormon church position on tattoos and cosmetic surgery?

If I lift my butt through exercise but spend the same amount on exercise equipment that I would have spent on surgery is that still bad?

Minor note on this topic. My wife has, what she believes, to be a major issue with her body. I won’t go into what it is, but I will say this, it has caused her self-esteem to be extremely debilitated (sp?). It has affected her whole life outlook and has been a source of deep embarassment for her and makes her feel inadequate. It seems to me a pretty arrogant thing that if she were to elect to have the surgery to fix this that in some peoles eyes would make her a less worthy member or less worthy to hold a calling or less worthy of the Lord’s love.

The truth of the matter is whether it would be okay or not would be between her, her bishop and the Lord. Since you have no right to judge someone, unless you have been called as a Judge in Israel (i.e. you are a Bishop) then why is this even an issue? If my wife was a 100% tithing, fast offering and generous charitable supporter then if she elects to take some of our discretionary income and save up for this then that would be her perogative.

If it would help her to finally feel better about herself and have more confidence then isn’t that a dividend in and of itself? I don’t know why this topic set me off like this as that is not usually who I am, but it did. Forgive me if my words are overly assertive and angry. However, I do not apologize for the content. Unless you have suffered from depression and an inordinate amount of ridicule growing up about something you had no control over, then perhaps you are not in the best position to pass judgement on someone who elects to fix something that has caused them so much grief for such a long time. Does she need to do it to be a good person, friend, wife, mother and/or daughter of God? No. However, if it will help her be a happier woman then I see that as a decision that would in no way affect her relationship with our Heavenly Father.

Just my 2 cents and worth probably even less.

veritas,

I’m not advocating one position or the other. I’m askng questions in order to better understand Julie’s position.

Question. It seems the two main objections are (1) permanence and (2) surgery.

Yet we don’t balk at dental surgery. I’d presume those complaining about implants wouldn’t mind large warts being removed or other growths. (Or would you?) Yet those are permanent surgery. So this seems an odd argument to take. And don’t say those are more essential or less expensive. Often they aren’t. Consider laser hair removal. You’re talking for a hairy back at least $1000. But if you balk at that why would you balk at a life time of razors which probably costs far more?

Clearly what is being complained about isn’t the results. At least no one is arguing that.

I just don’t see why removing stretch marks is bad, for instance. After all at worst I’m restoring my body. But if you allow those surgeries, why not others? (i.e. shrinking a nose that is considered very unattractive)

Could someone who thinks these procedures are wrong give a criteria for helping us skeptics discern what is the reason? Because to me it really just sounds like there isn’t much basis, except to extreme cases of over-indulgence. But that’s true of lots of things. I have a hard time finding the 250 lbs person really being worse than the woman with botox and implants. The former is far more unhealthy too.

Devyn,

I can certainly see both sides. For instance, I’m considering spending a lot of money on getting my vision fixed. I don’t think that it is for reasons of vanity since I think I look good in glasses. This is totally elective, somewhat expensive, and I feel like I pay a generous fast offering and I do other charitable things with money that while not on the level of feeding a village in India are doing concrete good in the world.

So is it bad of me to want to get my eyes fixed? Mixed in with that desire is a sense of regret. Bad eyesight is a part of who I am. Maybe DKL’s post about scars has some applicability here.

I’m aware of others that have had purely elective cosmetic surgery in order to improve their self esteem. On the surface this seems shallow, but in talking to these people I can understand their reasoning and have a hard time making blanket statements about it.

I do have some major qualms with cosmetic surgery. One is that it is surgery and there are risks involved. Ask anyone that had a leaking silicon implant (and they all leak given enough time) about that. Also I think that surgery to improve what you could accomplish through exercise and/or proper diet seems like substituting the scalpel for self mastery. Finally, I think that when role models are able to maintain an unnaturally good appearance it puts pressure on others to try to accomplish the same which leads to body image problems and other more serious issues.

Let me throw a twist in here and see what everyone says. What if there was a surgery available to change a gay man to a straight man but it cost $50,000. Should the gay man have the surgery to change his orientation? What would be the reason for doing so? If a young man does it to enable him to get married and raise a family, what about if he were over 45 or were sterile? Would it make a difference at that age or would it just be vanity? When should we accept that the Lord gave us our challenges (physically, mentally, and emotionally) to allow us to be better perfected? Are we interfering with our customized, mortal test when we eliminate the challenges?

I guess I am looking to know when we cross the line between what is necessary for survival and what is just for vanity?

Clark – great points – While I would agree that someone who is obese is very unhealthy, that is not in keeping with the commandments either. So, we should be exercising regularly and eating properly – fine, but what about the surgeries. I think that Michael has a nice framework for us.

Michael – that is a nice way to frame it – I think that is the essence of what we are debating back and forth. So what do you think? When does one cross that line? To me it seems that line is crossed when one’s motivations are not in the right place. If one has the surgery for pure vanity reasons then that is a problem to me, but if for reasons that are otherwise ok between you and the Lord, then I guess that might be ok.

Devyn,

I agree with Julie that nothing is inherently wrong with a tattoo or an extra earring. It is a matter of public perception and deciding whether you are going to conform to a “clean cut” standard or some other. I don’t think that it is that big of a deal if your heart is in the right place, but I would guess that the advice to avoid these things is based on the fact that people inside and outside (but mostly inside I would guess) the Church will judge you by your appearance. Of course part of the reason for this judging is the fact that a standard exists to begin with.

Devyn: If one has the surgery for pure vanity reasons then that is a problem to me, but if for reasons that are otherwise ok between you and the Lord, then I guess that might be ok.

But are you consistent in applying that principle? That is do you apply it to dental work?

I think I’d have a lot less trouble with these kinds of judgments if it didn’t typically seem to me that there were wildly double standards. So spending a thousand dollars over a few years on nicer suits is OK, but spending the same amount of money on surgery is bad. Dental work good. Nose work bad.

It seems that there is no real criteria at work. Rather some things are unseemly due to some odd social connotation. And not even really a normal social convention since most kinds of plastic surgery seem just as acceptable as dental work. It’s just the extreme cases that are seen as socially unacceptable.

I would say most people advocating that cosmetic surgery is generally a bad thing are not using a double standard. I think all vanity is bad. But, one that chops up your body? I think thats somewhat insane. People have lost their minds in the sick pursuit of a constantly changing ideal of beauty.

I agree that the path to long term happiness is to find ways to be happy with ourselves just the way we are. Perhaps keeping in mind things like trying our best to eat healthy and excercise enough so we don’t keel over and die of a premature heart attack.

We need to keep in mind the differences between the way the world should be and the way it is. The way it should be is that we love each other in spite of our differences or how we might look. The way it is, people like my wife got made fun of through her formative years and because she is a gentle soul these words cut her pretty deep. She took them to heart, because they were said (or reinforced) enough times to cause her to believe (as most kids do) what was being said.

It has been difficult for her adult self to seperate the inadequecies that she felt when she was younger. So, in the end a lot of it is how others (or at least how we let others) make us feel. So, having said that I think that as long as you are being honest with yourself about the reasons you get the surgery done and it is for a real purpose and not just feeding your inner porn star, then I think it is within reason to have it done.

DKL – I think your surgeries don’t count based on the discussion thus far…

Clark – I don’t think anything can be applied consistently when one throws the “pray and get an answer card” into it. Two people could get exact opposite answers. However, I really don’t think that breast enlargement or face lifts are really socially acceptable in most circles, whereas dental improvements seem to be acceptable.

CEW-Smoke – I can certainly empathize with your wife and I don’t think anyone here would think that getting some type of surgery was problematic as it seems her motives are good. However, as Clark has argued how do we apply this consistently? I don’t think we can and, in the end, everyone must do what feels right to them…

Uh, oh, now we’re talking hair highlights?! Here i sat on my pudgy, single-piercing, tattoo-free pedestal until i read that. Oops!

There was a recent discussion elsewhere about cooking with alcohol and a common theme was intent. Perhaps that applies here, as well? I’m sure I’ve read at least one article about plastic surgery from an apostle, perhaps Dallin H. Oaks? Or maybe not, my memory is fuzzy. We should track that down.

It’s always interesting to see the reactions people have when they find out their EQP has eight tattoos. I personally find them disgusting and would never get one, but I married the guy despite them! It makes for very interesting ward pool parties and beach days (none of the eight are visible unless he removes a short-sleeved shirt).

I would like to offer some of my personal perspective. This is personal and so I have used the name “Anonymous”. As a single woman still looking for love, I can tell you that there is a huge double standard out there. I have been rejected for being too tall (5’10″), not having big eyes, not looking like a beauty queen, and not being a hard-body, etc. etc. These rejections came from Mormon men who should know better and accept me for my beautiful heart. Yeah right! They easily reject my physical shortcomings yet seem to overlook their own.

Lest you think I am ugly, let me just say I would consider myself to be very pretty, I am tall, but slender, work out 3-4 times per week, have a small nose, a nice smile, and flawless skin. However, many times during my life, I have been mistaken for a man because I have broad shoulders and a flat chest. I hated it. I never felt feminine and a few years ago I had breast implants, eye surgery, and braces. I don’t see any bit of difference between surgery and braces and I don’t regret one minute of my decision to have surgery. I don’t feel guilty at all and I don’t believe for one second that HF will point His finger in disappointment at me. Yes, our bodies our temples. However, we also live in mortality, which means due to the luck of the gene pool, many of us are not physically perfect. I just want to be physically perfect for ME! I don’t want to look like Barbie, or any version of what society’s current perfect woman looks like.

cew-smoke – nice rant. It certainly made me chuckle – I think you had one too many diet cokes this evening

anon female – thanks for the perspective – I was hoping we could get someone’s perspective who has been on the front lines – so to speak. It is interesting that body image is at the root of most of this discussion board. And unfortunatly, it seems that society and men drive much of this. I applaud your courage and hope you find happiness.

In summary it sounds we have gone around a lot of circles, but come down to the need for a personal discussion with one’s God on what may or may not be enhanced. Everyone has their differing views none or all of which may be right.

Anon Female, I feel sad that men don’t think you are good enough physically. Those men are just shallow idiots who have been conditioned to believe that women are what they look like.

But I have to say, from your description of yourself in your post, what you are trying to do is indeed look like Barbie. You may feel you are doing it for yourself, but I believe you and women like you (of which there are many) have been conditioned to believe over a lifetime that you need to look a certain way. So, when it comes down to it you think your just doing it to make yourself happy, but, its only because you believe the BS we have all been drowning in since birth.

I honestly don’t think a man can fully understand the social pressures placed on women to look a certain way.

I was talking with a friend last night about this. I have four brothers, and I am the only girl in my family. My mother is extremely thin and always gets compliments on the way she looks. I would say I am thin/average, but I’ve never felt that way because my mom gets so much attention for her weight. I often times feel like I’m a failure in my family with regards to my body. This isn’t because of anything anyone has said to me, but it’s my perception that I am the “chubby daughter” in the family. I know that none of my brothers would think of themselves as failures because they simply gained a little weight, and I’m not sure any of them would understand my problems with weighing more than my mom. I really think if you aren’t a woman you can’t understand this, and you can’t understand why some women like Anon Female have plastic surgery. The fact of the matter is people (especially women) are judged based on how they look, and this causes a lot of self-esteem problems. And a lot of people in the church are the ones doing the judging. Simply saying our bodies are created by God doesn’t fix the problem.

I don’t think we can judge people based on whether or not they get plastic surgery. It really is a personal thing. I die my hair, I had my teeth fixed, I bleach my teeth, I wear contacts because I like the way they look more than glasses (even though I could see better if I had glasses) are my reasons for doing these simply things vain? Who knows — Most of my reasoning is simply to look a certain way.

When the statement about piercings and tats came out I had seven earrings, and I didn’t want to take them out. I waited for a year and then decided to take them out. When I took them out it was a big deal to me, now I could care less. I think the difference between that and other surgeries is simply the image. I think some of the Word of Wisdom has to do with this. Do you know how often I get asked about the church simply because I don’t drink? It’s a great missionary opportunity. When the piercing thing came out that was a huge fad in the world, and it was just another thing that made us different from the rest of the world. I really think it’s just an obedience thing. I would say that since there hasn’t been any official statement about plastic surgery it’s fine if you feel fine about it for yourself.

maWessa,

I take any perception that you are chubby as evidence that the media has put enormous pressure on women to look a certain way, pressure that I can’t understand. My advice to anybody is to figure out your BMI and talk to your doctor if you have concerns about it. Approach the doctor with an open mind and listen to what they say, not what you want to hear.

As for the rest of your comment, I’m sure there are people out there that think that any hairstyle that involves changing the color of your hair is a step towards perdition. I’m not sure what the best way to deal with those people is other than to live your life and hope that over time they’ll get to know you as a person rather than as a hairstyle.

I agree that the earring thing is probably similar to the WoW in terms of being a test of obedience rather than a big deal because that extra earring (or six) is inherently evil.

As far as official statements go, you might want to check out Elder Holland’s talk from a year ago. He offers some advice on the subject and I would guess that we we’ll hear more on the subject in conference in the future.

I think the reason that tatoos and extra piercings are taboo is because, as Julie mentioned, the social perceptions that are attached to stuff. In short, they don’t look squeaky clean and clean cut. They still have (to a large number of people) the connotation of someone who lives a “rougher” lifestyle. With plastic surgery on the other hand, you can still look clean cut and wholesome. Wholesome with big breasts.

“I was saddened to see the tired old class card played nearly right out of the gate by Julie”

Ha! That’s funny. Particularly in light of Veritas playing it the other way against me on the last thread. Can’t win around here . . .

Wow, my link didn’t work. I’ll try again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqxvtXRwl1o

I want to see President Monson in a short-sleeved shirt… For that time and era, a good sailor must have had an anchor tattoo on his forearm or SOMEwhere! I actually disagree with “the octogenarians” not liking tattoos in general because for their peers, that was a pretty normal thing. Obviously it’s “gotten out of hand” nowadays (remember, I’m married to the guy with eight, so no hand-slapping!).

Vertias the problem I have is that you equate surgery for cosmetic reasons with being objectified. That just isn’t an essential relationship. I can see how you might see that if you see many people who do view themselves in that fashion. But I think you’re simply making too extreme a connection.

Devyn, the tables already are turned. Men are choosing plastic surgery or related measures fairly regularly. We got a flyier in the mail with our regular mail from a local cosmetic surgery place in Orem that seemed to target both men and women. Apparently for men nose jobs and ab work are very popular. (For many men even when you work out a ton its hard to get a good looking six pack) And of course laser hair removal is tremendously popular. There are many billboards along I-15 for hair removal. The trendy thing a few years back when I was single was to have a hairless chest. And of course a hairless back.

Further, of course, having an atheletic body for single males is becomes at least as important as for women. This is of course to be expected as the “bargining power” of women increases in dating economics. (grin)

Clark,
you said:
Likewise there are some issues with breast feeding and feeling. That’ll vary according to the kind of implant and the size difference. But that and the dangers always present in surgery are real. You have to ask yourself if it is worth it.

This has nothing to do with the size of the implants! Loss of feeling and ability to breastfeed are caused by cutting nerves, almost unavoidably, during surgery. If it is an A cup or a D–the result is the same.
I think it is sad we live in a society where women will get bigger breasts to please people around them, while at the same time give up sensation in their breasts which contribute greatly to their own sexual satisfaction (in other words, getting bigger ones to satisfy a man, but lose any value they have to themselves as a woman); and risk their own ability to breastfeed their children.

Re #59: I meant this blog, but I wasn’t being \serious. An eye roll would probably have been a more appropriate response than actually writing something.

There’s definitely a California influence in the entire west – mainly due to people fleeing California the past decade but also due to ideas. (i.e. look at development of subdivisions and it has, the last decade, followed a Californian model)

But it’s not that surprising, all things considered.

I live in Northern California–in the Bay area. I very rarely see billboards for cosmetic surgery–although I regularly recieve ads for them in the mail. I was very surprised to visit Utah recently and see billboards for cosmetic surgery EVERYWHERE–much more than my neck of the I-580/ I-680 and surrounding parts.

Clark, I take it you have some knowledge of the impact of implant size that I don’t. I sincerely would like references (for my own field of study). If you have such data, or studies, please post a link.

endlessnegotiation, I made a bit of play with the fact that my parents had plastic surgery performed on me and put me in braces for cosmetic improvements in my teeth (that’s right, my parents basically thought I was ugly, and took me to the doctor to fix it–thanks goodness!). It’s pretty obvious that these purely cosmetic (and pretty darned expensive) measures fall within the realm of reasonable plastic surgery. On the other hand, there are many examples of gratuitous or ridiculous plastic surgery, and if they aren’t greater in number, they’re certainly more noticeable. Surely one can object to this as a frivolous use of money and doubtful way to treat you body without evoking your sadness for their class-envy.

My heck, I take a few days off and look what happens. I shall do it more often.

A close friend had liposuction and a face lift and laser something and I went to pick her up. She looked like she’d been in a bad car wreck and felt the same way. She was only 35 and she was and still is pretty and nobody noticed the difference but her.

In answer to your question, no, I don’t think they are in the same “bucket.” I think tattoos are in a much worse place. Plastic surgery, I don’t think God cares. For that matter, two earrings? Way down on God’s list of sins.

Hi again,

From my perspective as a woman who has had plastic surgery, I want to add a few more thoughts to this thread. I don’t feel plastic one bit! :-) As I said before I have never once regreted having surgery. My choice in having surgery is no one else’s business and very few people outside of my family even know. The few people I have told were surprised and said they could not tell in any way that I have breast implants. I certainly don’t go around wearing tight or revealing clothing. It has made all the difference in the world for me. I feel more feminine and I feel more beautiful. I went from a size A- to a C and I have never lost any feeling in my breasts. I really don’t care whether or not a man would be happy or unhappy with my decision. Either way, if he can’t accept me for how I am, then the relationhsip won’t work anyway.

I agree that it seems vain, but you could say that about remodeling your house, keeping up with the Jones’, or simply combing your hair. Who gets to draw the line on what’s acceptable? If you are happy with yourself, more power to you, but don’t judge those of us who want to fix some of the mortal, genetic flaws that we are delt.

The reality about mortality is that physical appearance is important and always will be, especially for women. It makes me sad, but it’s reality. Here is an example; I talked with a woman in another ward who asked me if I had kids. When I said no, it led to her asking if I was married. When I also responded no, she then said; “I can’t understand that because you are so pretty”. I just smiled and said thanks, but her comment really saddened me. It seemed to be ingrained in her thought process and understanding that women who aren’t ‘pretty’ don’t or won’t get married. As women, I believe we are much harder on other women than men would ever be.

A quote I’ve heard before says: “When a man speaks, people will listen. But when a woman speaks, people will judge her looks, and if they like what they see, then they will listen.” This certainly rings true to me!

Mami-

I assure you that I do, in fact, have just as much sensation as I did before…in every area of my breast. Are you a doctor? I assume you are trying to be helpful? But your comments are not helpful. I don’t appreciate your telling me what I feel and don’t feel…especially implying that I will never be aware of sensation because it is too late. You have no idea what I feel or don’t feel. Before surgery, my doctor said it is possible to lose feeling, but there are many different ways to surgically implant the device, and the method he used allows a woman to retain sensation.

Well, Daniel, think about it. Putting aside tattooed eyebrows, which I may consider one day, think about who wears an extra earring. The girl who cleans my teeth, a teacher at school, the salesgirl at Macy’s. I know there are discreet tattoos, but my son-in-law was a tattoo artist (before he went to prison) and I am a bigot about that sort of thing.

I see people with tattoos, speaking generally and excluding the little star on the ankle, as living a lifestyle that rejects most of the commandments. A girl in Seminary who chooses to keep her extra earring and uses that as her little rebellion probably isn’t going to throw her life away. She’d be better off to follow the prophet’s “counsel” (as opposed to prophecy, “thus sayeth the Lord”), but it’s not the end of the world.

In speaking of cosmetically enhancing surgery (debatable for its positive affect), vs. tattoos and the second earring, we are talking apples and oranges. Was it Nine Moons that talked about our little rebellions? We all have them. There is just a difference.

From my experience, people who embrace tattooing are embracing a lifestyle. In general.

Veritas– You don’t have to be poor or middle-class to engage in class envy so the fact that you come from a wealthy family does not inoculate you from class-envy disease. Just look at the examples of Bill Gates and Warren buffet. I don’t know if there are two more public examples of wealthy people wishing they were middle-class or feeling emarassed by their wealth (or at least giving lip service to the sentiments). Your entire response to my first comment is littered with class envy. The fact that you claim not to moralize about the merits of cosmetic surgery while at the same time feeling “sad” for those who elect to have it is disingenous and insulting. If therse no moral component to cosmetic surgery then why feel sad for people who have undergone it? My wife will be having her surgery not so she can look better for men or women– in fact she’s hoping the surgery makes her less noticeable to everyone (right now she thinks she looks like that stripper others have written about)– and is not trying to “conform” to some. She wants less attention and has chosen the surgery route to try and achieve that goal. Sure, she could dress in a tent and shave her head and probably achieve the same results (at the cost of now being percieved as “that crazy shaved-head tent-wearing lady) but I think the burden is on you for making the case that that approach is the more moral route to take than simply reducing her cup size from DD to B.

DKL– I agree that at some point one can cross the line of good taste but I don’t think a line exists from a moral perspective. Those who engage in what may be termed “excessive” cosmetic reconstruction typically suffer from some diagnosable neuropathy and I personally find it inappropriate to moralize about mental illness.

Devyn– I think a key driver in the East-West paradox of plastic surgery is weather. Having lived in both places I know I covered a lot less of my body for a lot more time when I lived out West than I did when I lived in the East. Out West and in the far South “summer” is a 6-9 month event. In New England three months worth of nice, outdoor-appropriate weather is a blessing. One “summer” I spent there I didn’t think it ever got warm enough to go swimming outdoors (I’m from out West).

Mami, in a perfect world you might be right. And the only cause of nerve damage would be when doctors directly snip nerves to the nipples. However all doctors are not equal and putting a large device in a small hole, as it were, increases the chance of unintended damage. Now, do I have references to the rates of this happening? No, I’ll confess I don’t. If you are aware of studies dealing with the rate of unintentional nerve damage correlated to the size of the implant vs. the original size of the breast I’d be interested.

Nick, my wife’s father divorced her mother. I can assure you there is a huge amount of anger and a feeling betrayal that is hard to overcome. It’s been quite a while since the divorce and she still hasn’t recovered. It’s sad to say, but I think the combination of the divorce for sexual reasons combined with significant appearance and lifestyle changes is far more likely the cause than Church teaching on tattoos. Rather she has a lot of anger and is unleashing it through a kind of sublimated expression. I’m not saying it’s good, but from my experience with friends who have divorced parents it is anything but unexpected.

Well, endlessnegotiation, we already had pretty much determined that breast reduction is not really the type of surgery we are discussing here, first of all. Second of all, I think you misunderstood me. I wasn’t claiming to not moralize (maybe not ‘sloppy moralizing’). I just said my beef with the surgery is not really the money side of it. If you really want to be mad at me, please first go back and re-read all my posts very carefully. Im not really interested in repeating my point for the 300th time.

Veritas– It’s sloppy moralizing when you can’t identify the unique character that makes getting a breast augmentation immoral and a breast reduction moral. Both cases represent someone dissatisfied with one’s own appearance and having surgery to address that dissatisfaction. Your approach seems to be, “I’m willing to deal with my own warts without surgery so everyone else should be too.” That’s hubris and not a basis for ethics.

Mami – doh! That’s teach me to do quick googles rather than a real topic search. My one defense is that there’s just no way I’ll have time to make it up to campus any time soon. As I said I’m going by distant memories based upon what I’ve read and that indicated that it was the amount of tissue trauma that is the cause of the problems.

Endlessnegotiation, I believe Veritas is arguing that surgery to fit the ideals of society is wrong more due to the influence of societal ideals. I’m just guessing but even after rereading that’s how I take it. My problem with this is that the ideals in the west and the south are different from the northeast. So it seems to me that it’s a battle of competing social pressures and Veritas and others are just picking their society where breast enlargement is bad as the standard with which to judge everyone else. But this issue of societal pressure is interesting. Europeans, for instance, think Americans weird for whitening our teeth. (At least all the ones I’ve talked to about it do) Likewise the American infatuation with cosmetic dentistry paying thousands of dollars for often painful surgery on children isn’t matched by many other Western cultures.

There’s a definite double standard at work here and I just don’t understand why people don’t just ‘fess up to it.

#83,
Wow, Susan. Thanks for promoting the idea that children should cut off their parents for making personal choices that don’t accord with LDS teachings. I guess that goes right along Dallin Oaks’ recent counsel that LDS parents should both socially and personally reject their gay childrens’ partners (and in effect, their own children as well). So much for all that emphasis on the importance of families in the church, eh?

mfranti – nice post. I am glad that you have found where your beauty is and are happy with yourself. I also appreciate your perspective that the Spirit can guide you.

endless – Perhaps God does not care, but I believe that he does care if it is important to me. For example, if I am considering plastic surgery for something that I see as a flaw and I pray about it, I believe that I should get some sort of answer. Regardless of God deeming it important or not, it is important to me and that matters. Also, from the beginning we have noted that plastic surgery for things like trauma are not included in this discussion – they are not really elective, but critical to living a normal life.

i wasn’t talking about the “extreme” cases. i don’t dissagree with you that a burn victim, or a breast cancer survivor ect shouldn’t elect surgery.

i am speaking of vanity. pure and simple vanity and not being satified with who you are.

i wasn’t finished.

i am talking to the girl who thinks that having large breasts somehow enhances her personality. well it doesn’t!

yes, i am a little upset! i have a 13 yr old daughter who is exceptionally beautiful. asian/mexican/caucasion. and it breaks my heart that she has been convinced that she is not good enough becuase she isn’t the stick figure image that is in the media. (she has my figure)

I had braces to straiten my teeth. They were completely unnecasary. They did make me look like less of a buck-toothed dweeb though.

I comb my hair and shave and bath with fancy scented soaps. This is all completely unnecesary. I would probably have gotten in trouble on my mission if I hadn’t and my wife would probably be mad at me. (I even dyed my hair once.)

My wife shaves her arm pits and her legs, she wears make up, has her hair done, and wears fancy clothes, shoes etc. All of that is not necassary. (I am going through some sort of inner debate on how to spell the word necassary. Part of me wants to just check the dictionary, but nah, why ruin the sheer idiocy of it)

I know several people who have gotten their stomaches stapled and have lost over 100 lbs. The necesity of this is debateable, but They all look a lot happier.

I know people who change jobs, change religions, buy new cars, move houses, because they are not “satisfied with who they are.” Sometimes this is a good thing, sometimes it isn’t, but I think we probably are showing just as much “cheapness” by making anothers personal vanity our issue as they are showing their “cheapness” by having plastic surgery done. After all, if how we look doesn’t matter, why do we care if someone else is changing how they look?

p.s- I lied, I don’t really comb my hair, but I was trying to make a point….?

Devyn– If God does not care whether or not we get cosmetic surgery then no amount of prayer, regardless of how important the issue is to us personally, is going to yield a divine answer. It’s like praying over what brand of jeans you should buy. The problem with excluding the extreme cases (trauma, morbid obesity) from the equasion is that you’re trying to draw an arbitrary line somewhere and call that ethics. Take burn victims. What percentage of their body must be disfired before they are morally allowed to correct the abnormality with surgery? I have some very large, very visible scars from a car accident. Can I morally fix those? May I only fix the one’s on my face or does it matter? My wife has a very large bosom. How large does it have to be for her to morally utilize surgery to reduce its size? It sounds like a lot of people want to condemn other’s decisions based on some sort of arbitrary line of demarcation without explaining where that line ought to be drawn and for what reason. That’s what I define as sloppy moralizing.

Like I said, my stance on the issue is that God just doesn’t care about the surgery itself. I think He will likely evaluate our decision based on the motivation for doing it. The decision as to whether or not we ought to get cosmetic surgery, like a lot of other decisions, is morally neutral but the rationale is vitally important to our Heavenly Father. I think you and others are willing to give the hard cases a pass because you percieve their motivations to be quite obvious and noble while Anon Female gets accused of less than noble motivations for her decision to improve here physical appearance– motivations that you and others perhaps cannot understand. Don’t you see a problem with that?

Take football (the only sport I know to be divinely inspired) as an example of a morally neutral activity. The choice as to whether or not to play the sport is morally neutral in isolation but differing motivations for playing can have moral implications. I enjoyed playing the game because of the strategy, teamwork, and the competition– all of which I think are noble pursuits. I had a guy on my college team that played primarily because it allowed him a venue to inflict physical pain on others without any real consequences. He was an embarrassment and his involvement in the sport was morally reprehensible. My former teamate won’t be judged based on his decision to play but his motivation for playing will have eternal consequences.

Nick:

My diety doesn’t care about piercings and tatoos either. It’s just that some of His leaders do.

Endlessnegotiation, I do not believe ANYTHING we do with our bodies is morally neutral.

Our bodies are literal gifts from God, we believe them to be a necessary element to recieving salvation, something Satan has been wailing and nashing his teeth over lacking, they are referred to as sacred temples in the scriptures….how could Heavenly Father possibly not care about what we do with them??

endless – The key issue I laid out in the beginning is to figure out if there is a line and if so, where is that line. I think you are arguing there is no line, but I believe that there is. I just don’t know where it is but I know that my relative has crossed that line as she is addicted to it. I think that motivation is a huge part of it, but again, my relative thinks that she is doing it because she looks ugly (at least to her), so I am not sure that is where the line is. I just don’t know, but my gut tells me there is a line – similar to alcoholism – when does it become problematic…

As for the assertion that God does not care about the surgery per se, I will give you that point based on your argument that God does care about our motivations. And, yes, I agree with you that we cannot judge others based on their personal decisions. However, we can try to find where that line is for each of us, and, again, I agree with you that we should not apply our personal ethics onto others.

Net – I think we agree on the basics, just not on whether there is a line and if that line can be defined, even if just by me for my own judgements.

Actually, Nick, I don’t understand why my theology suggests this. I believe, yes, that all creations are gifts from God, and I do believe that he cares how we treat all his creations. But US…our bodies…I believe are in a seperate category. Obtaining a body is essential to our salvation, to becoming like God…we are told in the scriptures our bodies are sacred. So, why would this sacred gift from God that we believe we fought for in the pre-existance not matter? I think everything we have ever been taught by our prophets and scriptures suggests that Heavenly Father does indeed care what we do with the sacred tabernacles he has provided for our Spirits. I fail to see how if we believe all creation is a gift from God the level of concern becomes meaningless.

I’ve been in and out of this thread without coming down on one side or another, because I’ve been too busy to read a lot of this thread. But now I have, and here are my thoughts:

1. The question of whether something is right or wrong is altogether independent of the question of whether God approves it. As Kant pointed out, if we decide that anything is good, then we’ve done so using a judgment system that is logically prior to the object that it is judging. Thus, if we decide that God’s desires are good, we’re doing so with a moral system independent of his. In other words, when it comes to deciding what’s right and what’s wrong, we’re on our own.
    
2. Nick, I’m sorry to hear that your daughter is behaving that way. It would be a terrible shame if her behavior were in some way caused by things that she’s heard at church. I believe that a great many Mormons are also inclined to think that it would be a shame. I tend to think that such a connection is not unlikely, but many Mormons probably disagree with me there.
    
3. There’s simply too strong of an emphasis on appearance in Mormonism and among Mormon leaders. A priesthood leader recently advised our elders quorum to wear a white shirt to stake conference, because a GA would be there. He related that the last time a GA was at stake conference, he commented on the prevalence of non-white shirts.

   I sustain that priesthood leader, that GA, and the GA who came to the other conference. I wore a white shirt to stake conference (as I always do at church). I just sometimes wish that leaders (in this case, the GA who expressed the preference for white shirts) wouldn’t champion issues that makes sustaining them seem trivial.

   So it is, in my view, with the single-earring rule (though I don’t have any earrings myself, and [quite independently of Gordon Hinckley's advice] I never intend to).
    

4. There’s simply too strong of an emphasis on appearance in American society, and this is something that we just have to live with. I’d like to think that I’ve made my way in life by my own merits and strengths. But my wife asserts that my life would be completely different if my parents hadn’t had my ears pinned back. And when I look in the mirror and push my ears out, I do look damned goofy — enough to negate whatever attractiveness I might otherwise posses. Truth is, if I looked like a complete goof-ball, I probably would not have had many of the opportunities that I’ve enjoyed. Bottom line: Whether a person intends to diet, exercise, or go under the knife, I just don’t think that one can dismiss out-of-hand his feelings that he might be better off if he looked better than he does.
    
5. The body is a temple, but everybody’s body is their own temple. God may well pass judgment on others for what they’ve done to their bodies, but it’s not our place to do so.
    
6. I don’t see any real difference between tattoos and piercing (on the the one hand) and plastic surgery (on the other).

I have thoughts on this subject, but I’ve restrained myself as the topic is eventually just too loaded. Does it say something about us that a thread on breast enhancement and piercing has become the “Number One Most Commented-On Thread” at this blog?

I will however say this: My wife tells a story from her time in Chicago. There was an obviously disadvantaged youth who started attending their ward. He looked nothing like anyone else from the cut of his hair to the choice of his dress. One day he stood up to bear his testimony. He related how afraid he had been to attend our church given the obvious differences between him and everyone else. He then told people how glad he was to realize that we believe in a God that doesn’t care how he looks.

Annegb – perfect summation. I think that we are often too much like beasts in the barnyard, although we should not be surprised since we are related to them after all.

Jay – thanks for the comment. I think we focus on the grey as we can have a dialogue and begin to formulate our own opinions on those items, since the black and white are dictated to us. While we should not judge others, it is important to discuss so we can know where we stand on an issue for our own knowledge. Otherwise we have no firm opinion.

I also have had elective surgery –
1) Rhinoplasty for a nose that I hated (and the doctor conveniently agreed was much too masculine for me)
2) Breast lift/augmentation (at the same time as the rhino) I had nursed 4 children and my full C cups disappeared in the process :-(

BUT….I am a beautiful young woman and didn’t medically need either of these procedures. Years later, here I am evaluating: What was I thinking? And where was my thinking stemming from? A vibrant and healthy relationship with my Heavenly Father from which views of my eternal value could correctly be fostered and assessed? Or distorted views from my environment that tell me (whether I believe I’m listening or not) what I should look like ~36-24-36~ and that somehow interactions stemming from my new “improved” appearance will make me happy/have more self-esteem, etc.?

I assure you that it’s not Heavenly Father telling us that elective plastic surgery used to enhance our sex-appeal/appearance is what will bring us closer to Him. And NOT doing things that bring us closer to HIM is our first clue that we are not on the right path.

Here is the truth about my surgery, and of course not all experiences turn out this way – but not all don’t either….
My nose ended up looking like a truck ran me over. 10k and 2 revision surgeries later, it looks semi-normal, but feels like a wooden knob on my face. My breasts feel and look like two grapefruits glued to my chest and I wish SO MUCH that I had been wiser in my youth and less focused on myself and my feelings and not fallen prey to society’s views on what a “woman” should look like. I wish that our society as a whole would get off of this ridiculous vanity ride and turn our hearts towards each other and our families and our communities and NOT OURSELVES AND OUR LOOKS.

I post this so that poeple will know that the ideal you are trying to live up to when you select these insane surgeries DOES NOT EXIST IN REALITY. It’s not real, so you cannot attain it. We are fruitless in our attempts to gain acceptance, love, self-esteem, a mate, sex, WHATEVER we are searching for through surgery, because it is not God’s method of giving us those things. We CAN find joy in the world without being of the world, and without conforming to the world’s standards. In fact, NOT COMFORMING is the only way we will find true joy – since we know that God’s standards are not the world’s standards. Do you really think that Heavenly Father gave you whatever it is you have on accident? Do you think he had no control over “your gene pool?” Do you think he gave it to you so that you could spend years obsessing and fretting, only to surgically “correct” it later and be happily ever after?? Or is it so that you can be and stay humble and come unto HIM for your happiness (and not a surgeon?)

If you are considering surgery, please take A LOT of time (years!!) first to geniuniely consider your motivations, and if it is not medically necessary to better your quality of life – please leave your imperfect body in one piece and think twice about better places to spend your money and invest your heart.

You all believe your body is a temple…right?? Well, last I checked the “Mormon temple” is private, sacred, cost a crap load of money to build, maintain, and decorate. This is worldly, costly and not helping peple in India. If you truly compare the two “temples” they really are the same, and we can’t be hoporcrites! Do you people really have nothing better to do? And don’t you know to just do what the prophets says! Plastic surgury is okay. Two earings is NOT! Gosh
I came across this looking up info on breast aumentation for my sagging, aging breast. I’m gald I don’t belong to such a judgmental church!! I would be afraid of the judgemental conversations that would take place behide my back god forbid anyone ever found out!

(WARNING!: I am not LDS so my opinion may differ widely from those of many people here.)

I had a breast reduction over a dozen years ago (I was extremely lopsided – one side was a B, the other a DDD!) and have never regretted it. While this *did* qualify as a quality-of-life procedure, it also affected my self-esteem positively.

Like it or not, women *are* more likely to be affected by how they feel about their looks than men, so a little nip and tuck is probably not very high on God’s list of transgressions. Lying, cheating, being judgmental… those are much more serious matters than wearing more than one pair of earrings or getting a little ink. (I have two piercings on each ear but no tattoos).

A good friend of mine was raised in the LDS faith. He left it because of the attitudes of people in the LDS who chose to ignore his good qualities in favor (or should I say against?) his tastes in music and dress. Some busybody actually reported him to a Bishop because he wore a black t-shirt with the name of a heavy metal band printed on it. That’s just one example….

In the end, we will find out what God truly thinks when we met Him/Her/It face to face, right? Meanwhile, I say live and let live.

hawkgrrrl – If her large breasts were a health issue, the new “raising the bar” standard for missionaries would probably dictate that she have the reduction before she left.

queno – if the new standards were in place back then I’m not even sure my mission would have existed (not necessarily the health standards). Change is good.

No, I think God also intermediates in the affairs of other countries.

How can you explain His inspired guidance to elevate leaders such as Chavez, Castro, Pinochet, Fujimori, Peron? Hmm. Maybe the Saints in those countries didn’t pray enough.

Hmmm–Times change. What isn’t acceptable now will probably be in the future. I remember when I was young, if a woman died her hair, she was practically a fallen woman. Now there is hardly a woman who doesn’t color her hair. The same principle applied when women pierced their ears.

Men are now discouraged from growing a beard. I friend of mine recently was called to be in the Bishopric. He was asked to shave his very groomed Van Dyke beard that he had worn for years.

One of my favorite wisdoms is that today “BRIGHAM YOUNG WOULDN’T BE GIVEN PERMISSION TO ENROLL IN HIS OWN UNIVERSITY!”

All it will take for two earrings and tattoos and plastic surgeries to be accepted is for a few Apostles’ daughters or even wives to indulge themselves of such services.

Mariah

Di,

Are talking about this site?

I believe most (if not all) of the perma bloggers on this site are active, faithful members of the Church.

Men are now discouraged from growing a beard. I friend of mine recently was called to be in the Bishopric. He was asked to shave his very groomed Van Dyke beard that he had worn for years.

One of my favorite wisdoms is that today “BRIGHAM YOUNG WOULDN’T BE GIVEN PERMISSION TO ENROLL IN HIS OWN UNIVERSITY!”

Ugh, such tired dreck.

1. If Brigham Young were alive today, he’d probably be clean-shaven and wear a nice dark suit with a red tie.

2. I know of at least 10 bishops who have had beards, and several dozen other members of bishoprics and high councils who have had facial hair. It’s a local issue, not a Church issue. Take it up with the stake presidency member who made the request of your friend, not some mythical Church standard.

Yes Di, and it gets worse! Most people don’t realize it, but DKL is actually a middle-age woman living in northern Idaho. This site is a farce!

Guy Noir, I was inactive for 10 years. Inactivity is overrated. Besides, you haven’t the foggiest idea who we’ve asked to be a permablogger. Just my .02: If you didn’t go off half-cocked so often, you wouldn’t look so profoundly ignorant.

Eric Russell, LOL!

#138 Queuno – One of my favorite mission memories is of a Bishop with a pony tail and a beard. That was wonderful and refreshing.

Guy – just because one is active or inactive does not make one that different. I am much more liberal and questioning than my inactive siblings. So I don’t think that an inactive perspective is always that useful – a thinking perspective is regardless of where one is coming from.

#141,

Guy, it is clear where you’re coming from.

It is an old tendency that the ones who have the most to say about the flaws of authorities (or the authority of rules/decisions, etc.) have their eye on some form of that authority. It’s clearly hypocritical to stomp on others’ beliefs in an attempt to gain some kind of intellectual authority, while at the same time accusing authorities of doing the same thing. You are what you eat.

Matt. 20: 27
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

You preach Christianity, but if you are an authority, “Speak the truth in love.” Rather than in your condescending manner.

Ephesians 5
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love;

This last General Conference, Elder Oaks said something very profound- he talked about how church authority is separate from individual testimony. We are subject to authoritative decisions, no doubt, but as Elder Oaks said, “with our personal testimonies, we each have a direct relationship with God (paraphrased).” Authority does not diminish our personal testimony, just as our testimony does not diminish the responsibilities of Church authorities. When we receive directives from authority, it is thus imperative that we seek a testimony of that directive. If we cannot, there is no reason to think we cannot approach our authorities as equals with those concerns.

I think it is clear that most people here are discussing things close to their hearts and testimonies, whether those testimonies are of “Mo” things or not. People are looking for answers and information on a variety of subjects and you do yourself and your side of the story no favors by spewing vitriolic aphorisms meant only to subvert Mormonism.

Please approach these discussion with the Christianity you demand yourself- be respectful, open-minded, searching for anything virtuous, lovely, and of good report, and praiseworthy. Don’t trample others’ opinions, and you won’t be the mark of ones who can more than ably defend the faith to your complete discredit. That’s not the aim of this site, in my experience, but there are very intelligent and thoughtful people here who can make you very silly and unintelligent if you come out swinging.

School of hard knockers – good and refreshing post

I don’t think there will be any doctrine or policy regarding plastic surgery due to the fact that there are so many reasons, contexts, scenarios where it would seem reasonable to have it performed. The closest we will get will be Elder Hollands talk regaring slight chastisement to those who make people feel that they need to and to encourage those who feel it as their last resort.

I do find it somewhat ironic when men judge or look down on those who have had surgery and yet are often times the ones who make women feel like they have to.

We must be very careful to make judgements about someone when we are rarely informed of the circumstances. I don’t even know why we have time to do this…don’t we have jobs, familes, church callings, school etc.?

j Bunyon – thanks for the comments. I would agree with your comments, although there is certainly a balance between being content with with your body, enhancing some clear deficits, and enhancing for the sake of vanity. It is a tough balance and certainly one should be cautious before going to extremes…

Thanks for the Bashing, Guy. You’re sure full of love.

Moron – haven’t you seen those spam emails about magically growing taller as well as making other body parts larger. The miracle is here for just $199.99 plus shipping… Unfortunately, I don’t think anyone can help you grow taller once your growth plates are closed so if you are over 20 you are out of luck… If you were under 20 you could take Growth Hormone…

Robert Reich and Danny DeVito fit that bill Queuno…

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am mormon and i love tattos

This has been a most interesting Thread.
Ive had 8 children, and now my kids are getting older.
Each day, I get up, brush my teeth (Ive had braces), curl my hair, put on makeup. I wear nice (Not extreme) clothing. I wear a padded bra.
Im married in the Temple, Pray and study my scriptures. I Attend all my meetings including the temple. I try to be a good friend. I teach my daughters to be good young women. I teach them to be modest.

With all that said, What difference does it make to HF or anyone for that matter, if I simply want to fill my breasts out, and have my baby pooch removed?
I cant for the life of me see how any of you can equate this to some sort of sin? What a crazy doctrine, to say that God wills us to be stuck in frumpy body? Has anyone heard of simple genetics? Why not look as good as we can?
Heck, for that matter why do we dress up for church? Arent we told to wear our best?

For the life of me, this conversation seems silly.

166 -Southern Girl, read LDSihubs story for the other side of things. Yes, you are correct we should look and feel good about ourselves, but there should be moderation in all things.

Southern Girl,
I think you are overreacting here. No one has said that you can’t correct defects that are correctable, but there is a line somewhere. You will notice in the original post that I was referring to the guidance to not wear two earrings because it disfigures our bodies, but plastic surgery is somewhat similar. It seems to be contradictory. Some plastic surgery for correction of defects could be Ok, but too much, as in the case of someone I know can be addictive and cause both financial and other problems.

Southern Girl – First, I was not the one who made the comments about the Porn star, nor was my story about a crazy wife. My story was about someone who became addicted to plastic surgery and nearly ruined their life and their families life. There is always a fine line. Where does one find it? I suppose in collaboration with God. So if one wants to electively go wild, then fine, but remember that it can have an impact on others that could be negative. As for “we will never be told every move we should make by our leaders” – it depends on the situation – the two earrings thing is something that seemed a bit extreme. There are other examples as well.

Jaymie – thanks for addressing the question in the original post. I personally think that post-baby women are beautiful and it is a shame that our society holds up an unreal EIDOS as the perfect female.

“I personally think that post-baby women are beautiful and it is a shame that our society holds up an unreal EIDOS as the perfect female.”

Who can disagree with that? I don’t .. but if an LDS woman is 75 lbs overweight, is she living the word of wisdom? Oh sure, she doesn’t smoke or drink, but really , if she has a food addiction, is it healthy? Is it right?
BUT she can still have a temple recommend, since she at least follows the law to some degree.. Should a 500 LB person, really be worthy for a temple recommend, but an occasional cofee drinker be denined ? Silly right? I just follow my leaders on this one, as I know that the temple recommend question are simply the base requirements.

Now take a woman that works out, and dolls up.. (in a modest way)

She is considered to be vain and worldly.. The Fat woman is a good LDS woman. Can you see the nonsense in this?

If anyone from the outside read these narrow comments, it would certainly add fuel to the the idea that we are a cult. You and I both know that we aren’t.. we are thinking disciples of Christ, not mindless puppets. To even discuss this is silly.

People, whatever you have for a body, what ever you have for a spirit, its our job to take care of it.

We are in forward movement, a process of becoming.. True, The body dies….to put too much emphasis on the body is sin. To ignore the body, cuz we are going to die anyway is sin too. The body houses our spirt, You just get one.. Live life to the fullest. These are sound principles.

A tummy tuck is in the realm of “God Doesnt care”
He doesn’t care whether you get your yellow tooth fixed. He doesnt care if you wear a blue tie, or a red tie..
HE DOES care if you enter into idol worship. He does care if you think you are better than someone else. He does care if you ignore the poor. He does care if you talk down to the poor. He does care if you are preoccupied with any one thing.

I know that the original poster was using an extreme example. But , really that’s nobody I know. Most I know just want a few things fixed.. Big deal. and quite frankly, nobody knows or cares.
Then , some knuckle head implied that women that have plastic surgery become addicted, turn into porn stars, thus he threw the baby out with the bath. Typical LDS thing to do.. go extreme the other way.

Heckuva thread here! What’s interesting to me here is that both Southern Girl and Devyn are trying to do the same thing: ask the question “where is the line at which cosmetic surgery becomes unhealthy (in whatever way)?” Either are obviously at different places in the continuum of choices. But both feel that there is a point, right?

Devyn, I agree that both ear piercings and bodily “augmentations” are both image-driven alterations. And I do agree with the oddity of the contradiction there. I’m also on board that post-baby women are beautiful. Southern Girl’s question “why not look as good as we can” is the real crux, isn’t it? My own post-baby woman looks better than she would with “augmentations” and tucks.

Southern Girl, I think you feel far more judged here than you are actually being judged. Nobody doubts that you are a good person who strives to raise her children well. You may want to consider the validity of your statement, though, that nobody will know about your proposed alterations other than you and your husband. Your children will notice. Others may well too. Perhaps the most valuable thing said in this thread for you is that the fine line is to be found “in collaboration with God.” After you’ve made your choice–or as your choice evolves–the real trick is being at peace with your choice and with differing perspectives.

Thanks Scottay

Southern Girl – I looked at the comment that LDSihub wrote and he did not say anything about porn star. I think you took that one a little to the extreme. I can understand his bitterness and your perspective, however, I think you carried it too far. No one is judging your personal decision just stating that there is a line that we can cross in being obsessed with our bodies.

I looked at that study and it was fascinating – it really holds out that the “perfect” face does not exist in reality but is shoved into our minds by the media. Nice to know but also depressing that we are so spoon fed and manipulated.

I agree that his experience is not typical, but I don’t think anyone inferred that all who get plastic surgery would end up like this. It is just silly. Sure it was a little offensive, but the guy was clearly upset and bitter. Anyway, I am tired of defending some guy whom I do not know so you can take it up with him if he ever comes back.

“Anyway, I am tired of defending some guy whom I do not know so you can take it up with him if he ever comes back.”

I’m not sure why you are defending the guy either :)

Why don’t we all lay off the generalizations? Why is that we love to lump every situation into one of x categories?

EVERY situation is different.

If I had lost 200 pounds of fat I definetely would want to have my excess skin removed. It would be too painful walking around with all the skin just hanging off my body.

Southern Girl, I believe that there are some cases where taking care of our bodies would require plastic surgery. If someone had surgery to remove excess skin after losing 200 lbs, I would congratulate them for losing 200 lbs. If they looked horrible, I would think to myself that they ought to have the surgery to get the skin removed.

I see very little problem with “excess skin” fixes. If a woman has naturally lost the baby weight and wants her skin tightened, why not? I am too cheap for plastic surgery myself, but I do not think post-baby fixes are bad.

To the original post- I don’t understand the logic. I don’t know why I am more ok with my grandmother getting breast implants to a C after a mastectomy (she was an A-B before the mastectomy), but two pair of earrings are crass. I don’t know.

Southern Girl – I agree it is up to the individual, but Kew hit on the inconsistency – if all types of physical alterations are ok, then what is wrong with two earrings???

Southern Girl – interesting perspective. I don’t agree with the difference. It is all from the perspective of the person – I am sure many women who get two earrings do so thinking they look much better than they did before. It is just complicated…

If a person has low self esteem then I don’t how minor surgery to correct a problem defaces the body. I do not like to see it taken to an extreme, but that is true of everything.

I personally don’t care for tattoos nor body piercing. I would never do it to my body. But I don’t have a problem is somebody wants a small tattoo. I do wonder why anybody would want a full body tattoo or multiple tattoos that covered the body. But that is their personal decision and their decision should be respected by the rest of us.

Mary Kyle

Hey.

I really like your article very much. Please keep the articles coming, pal! :)

This was a hard one…what we feel inside and what we really are is two completely different things. We want to have white teeth and we want to be in shape. The hard part is to get there with healthy methods.

15. Phouchg
Your comment about Mormon Barbies is excellent and so true!!!

#117- I loved your comment. And I agree. I was getting frustrated by the comments of those who feel “sad” for others based on (very VERY personal) decisions they have made. Who are we to judge others??

In a college class once, a professor pointed out that to the Anthropologist, elective surgery, implants, facelifts, etc. is not much different then Nepalese neck rings, Chinese Foot binding, large sticks through the nose, plates in the lips, and so on. It is a social mechanism for changing the natural body to be more beautiful to the culture on lives in. Cultures have been doing this for centuries, especially to women. Are we spiritually okay with these practices, and do they bring us closer to our God?

Some women need breast augmentation to feel more comfortable about themselves. Some women, however, seem to do it just to please men. Anything that is done to ones self needs to be done for ones self.

Seriously? I think you’re the only woman I’ve heard say that.

Not happy with what God gave you, huh?

Is there a chance that what Hinkley said is just another of those ‘personal opinion’ talks? So really what we’re arguing over is just an opinion?

I personally can’t recall any specifics since by far I don’t pay enough attention during General Conferences, but I do recall of times when an apostle’s thoughts were first believed to be doctrine and then changed to be opinions. (Maybe Mormon Doctrine would count as one, the 6–now 9– bes of Hinkley’s?)

MCQ-Seriously, yes. I find a full head of hair in older men slightly creepy.

But then, my dad’s been going bald since before I was born, so that might have something to do with it.

This is very interesting discussion. I’d like to bring up the issue of competition, which I don’t think has been discussed specifically yet. God created the earth, and then Adam and Even, and then through the fall set in motion the creation of the rest of us. That creation was done in such a way as to allow of us to have very unique physical appearances and traits—-we are all different, in personality and in looks! Let’s celebrate that! I don’t think God wants us to be in constant competition with each other about how we look! (My breasts need to look like so and so’s, my muscles should look like Arnold’s, my hips and waist should look like Barbie, and so forth—this applies to our unique abilites as well)

On the other hand, I’m sure there are good reasons to enhance or change an impediment where possible and feasible. I know there are some women whose breasts are so large that it causes back problems and inhibits their ability to do things (like run) that other women take for granted. A decision to make a physical change like this can be carefully and prayerfully made to ensure that one is doing it for the right reasons—to increase the ability to be Christ-like and serviceable to others, but not for the purpose of pleasing the God of carnality and worldliness.

I’m sure I would feel the same way you do, so I can’t really have a judgment one way or the other. There are worse problems in life, that’s for sure. Your husband loves you and thinks you’re sexy and beautiful the way you are, which is way awesome. Your are completely healthy and in shape. I think this is what you’re saying—You simply have a desire to look more feminine—the same way I prefer a more feminine-style haircut rather than really short and over the ears because it makes me look (feel) like a guy. Unfortunately no one can tell you what do to. I would really admire you if you accepted things how they are and went on to live a happy life, but that’s easy to say when my breasts are a normal B size—after breastfeeding six children they are the same as they were before, or maybe slightly larger if anything. Why are there so many variances in hormone shifts from woman to woman? Who knows. But whatever you decide, you’re certainly wouldn’t be having surgery for worldly or carnal reasons. To me it really is a borderline case that could go one way or the other, and it’s hard for me to visualize anyone holding it against you, not even God. After all, He’s the one who set the standard of women having breasts that are different than a man’s, right? (We need live photographs of Adam and Even to make sure!)

Well, the natural man/woman (or carnal mind) wants to do anything he/she feels like doing with or to his body—decorate it however he wants to, satisfy its desires however he wants to, in essence, just have free reign to do whatever he feels like doing. But if we believe that there is a God who created us and who cares what we do with our bodies, then we will want to put off the natural man and follow God’s higher plan for us This means having respect for the divine potential we have to become like God, and making choices based on His laws, guidance and love for us. So, it really is a faith-based choice. If you don’t believe in God at all, or don’t believe in Him as your creator and father, or don’t choose to exercise this kind of faith in Him, then sure, you will do whatever you want to do with or to your body with no regard for what God or anyone else thinks—you have no other motivation but your own desires.

@Mary (post 222),

“If you’re not happy with your size then go to the gym e.t.c.”

… which shrinks the breasts after weight loss. Now have a strong body desired, but flat chest.

#223. Well, that’s an interesting thought–I never considered that healing the Roman soldier’s (Malchus) ear was a form of cosmetic surgery. Ear lobes generally don’t have a biological function, and it may be Jesus healed him for the “cosmetic” reasons you stated, but everything Jesus did was with a spiritual purpose. I think He did it for several reasons–first, to show compassion to his captors/enemies opposite Peter’s aggression; second, to protect his Apostles from the melee that may have ensued, much like the first swing or the first bullet leads to a full-scale brawl/battle (“all they that take the sword shall perish by the sword”); third, to demonstrate His power, this being the final miracle He would perform in mortality (prior to His death); and fourth, to demonstrate that he would peacefully and totally submit to His Father’s will (“Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?”).

In relation to this post, however, I agree with E. Holland that fixating on the physical is spiritually destructive (Thank you, hannah!). That is the whole point. We cannot and should not judge others their motives for having physical alterations, and there are legitimate, even non-extreme, reasons for doing so, but we can prevent ourselves from approaching that slippery slope. Is having two sets of ear-piercings spiritually destructive? Not likely. Would having a curious sip of wine or a puff of nicotine choke me spiritually? (After all, some early Saints drank and smoked prior to 1833…) Maybe not, but following the prophet’s counsel will keep one far from the danger of risking the path that leads to spiritual destruction, like releasing one’s hold from the rod for a few moments of vanity only to find one cannot find his/her way back through the mist of darkness. We cannot know where our seemingly harmless decisions may lead. All the more reason to just love and not judge.