Perhaps black holes are blue screens of death…

To add my own bit of theological speculation: One of the points Kurzweil, Moravec and others like to make is that one of evolution’s projects has been a steady increase in the efficiency of transmission of information, each stage building on the one before it (RNA/DNA to simple cells, to organisms with brains, to organisms capable of learned behavior, to toolmaking and language, to high-level abstract thinking, to technology, to technologically assisted design, to technology in charge of its own development). The basic argument being that technology is actually the next step in evolution. Now, supposing we got to where we are now through an evolutionary process (and I realize there are still a lot of Joseph Fielding Smith types out there), is it not possible that we will get to were we’re going through the same process?

On the lighter side, in discussions of technological acceleration in the long term, one of the theorized likely outcomes is the eventual harnessing of all matter in the universe for computation. Not unlike the celestial earth as a sea of glass. I just hope Apple designs the UI, and that it runs *nix, no blue screen of death please;)

WORD = TRUTH = LIGHT = SPIRIT = SPIRIT OF CHRIST = INTELLIGENCE = LIGHT OF TRUTH = VIRTUE

(D&C 84:45, 93:29-36, 88:40)

However, my use of the word intelligence was more narrow in this instance. It is true that we believe that intelligence, according to some interpretations, means something way beyond mere reason or rational ability.

My personal opinion is that Joseph used the terms spirit and intelligence nearly interchangeably, and that our modern dogma of distinguishing between intelligence and spirit may be mere theological wrangling done in an attempt to reconcile different teachings from the scriptures and from different periods of Joseph’s life. But the exact nature of our spiritual existence is actually not very relevant to the point I am trying to make.

I am referring mostly to our ability to reason. You will probably agree that, although we believe there is a spiritual component to man, that “intelligence” (or whatever you want to call it) can be nearly completely masked by the physical body. There may be brilliant souls who were born in retarded bodies. They may be incredibly intelligent spirits for all we know, but their bodies make it difficult or impossible for us to discover this.

From these and other observations, it seems to me that whatever we want to call soul or spirit is something different from our ability to reason and make decisions. The spirit may influence these decisions, but for the most part, our physical brains seem to have the greatest influence on our everyday actions. We also see that people whose brains are under the influence of chemicals can be made to act differently, either for better (such as in the case of people with mental problems who take medication) or worse (as in the case of drug addicts).

I am mostly arguing that I find it probable that so-called “artificial” intelligence will one day be developed. Humans have already created software that is programmed to behave autonomously within specific domains, such as with unmanned aerial vehicles, that conduct many of their operations without any human intervention. Much of the human body operates in the same fashion. Most of the things that are happening in our bodies that keep us alive are instinctive behaviors that don’t require conscious thought on our part. These operations (being finite) will probably someday be completely understood, at which point it will become possible to attack the problem of manufacturing them, altering them, and/or enhancing them.

Taking all these postulations to their logical conclusion, it will probably be possible some day to achieve physical immortality and even to store thoughts and memories independent from one’s physical body, or to transplant them into an immortal perfect body. My belief is not necessarily that such a pursuit should be considered separate and apart from God’s work. I am postulating that scientific discovery coupled with Christlike love is what may ultimately bring these promised blessings to pass. If, as we believe, God is subject to natural law, then I don’t see how they could otherwise be accomplished. And if our fledgling attempts turn out to be misguided and God steps in to show us how it’s really done, I believe whatever He ultimately shows us will also be technological in nature, meaning that it obeys natural law.

I also think that there should be no ultimate distinction between spirit and matter. As we believe, there is no immaterial matter. Therefore, as science advances, it will undoubtedly come to discover and understand spiritual phenomena, if they do exist. These phenomena will come to be understood, along with the principles required to master them. I believe all of these discoveries are a part of God’s work of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

I put “artificially” and “machines” in quotes because they are commonly used words in association with the idea, and because I think they can be misleading for at least a couple reasons: (1) humans can already be described by “machines” as much as and no more than these intelligences could be; (2) it seems arrogant to apply “artificially” only to human works of creation.

Those misleading notions aside, the reason I say these faiths are not incompatible is because of the basic Mormon teaching on creation: nothing is created from nothing; all creation is organization and reorganization. With this basic teaching in mind, we should expect that something along the lines of the ideas you expressed. When we create artificially intelligent machines, we should expect the act to be one of organizing and reorganizing something that already exists — much like the biological processes by which humans are created are acts of organization and reorganization. In the end, if we learn how to reverse engineer the process of organizing a physical human body, we may simply be inviting intelligence into it.

Once we learn how to reverse engineer a process, we can generally learn to improve on it and apply it in new ways. Imagine such a world. What would seem to be a reasonably expected progression of events? First, we would perhaps start living longer and healthier lives; subsequently, we would perhaps find ways to change our bodies such that they need not die; finally, we would perhaps identify processes by which we can reconstruct bodies in which to reinvite the intelligence of persons long since dead . . . which, of course, is the order of events prophesied in association with the Millennium.

So I look forward to any further discussion. (Not that you don’t get it. ;))

Carl Y: I’m not certain you understood my argument, since when you talk about human evolvement from mortal to immortal, we are in agreement by and large. Your reference to the three Nephites I find both compelling and agreeable.

Nevertheless, I’ll go on, since there appears to be something of doctrinal weight that we disagree on fundamentally.

You said:

your intelligence (at least your brain, by which you make observations and ratiocinate) was created…

Here it sounds as though you equate the brain solely with intelligence. Perhaps this was not what you intended, but that is certainly what it sounds like. I think you mistake greatly, if this is the case. Of course, if intelligence only pertained to the brain, even a spiritual brain (since all things are created spiritually first), then, yes, I agree with your argument to an extent. In fact, I think it’s a very important point that man is not as God is now, since we all hope and work toward that goal which becomes the purpose of life.

You also said:

It is therefore, in my opinion, ridiculous and faithless to assume that man’s creations will never achieve the status of God’s, for to assert this would be to assert the inherent and inescapable depravity of man – to assert that we are not God’s children.

Again, you are making assumptions about God’s creations that, in my mind, sets up something of a false comparison. For example, even though there is a certain interpretation of what you just said that I agree with — that all things from God are inherently good — it does not mean that all of his creations will be able to achieve the same status as him. For example, I do not believe that my pet dog will ever be able to have the type of immortal status that God has, as an agent of the highest order, even though I believe my dog will return with me to the Celestial Kingdom and enjoy eternal felicity in that sphere of creation wherein God placed him. The same thing I believe is true about technology. I think we will enjoy the joy of technology I would even go so far as to say that, as an appendage to our own agency and intelligence, technology will be incomprehensibly felicitous and at one with us in a sense. But technology will never replace godhood status.

No, the thing that I disagree with, and I think it is fundamentally an important doctrine of the gospel, is just what God means when he speaks of intelligence. To go scriptural on you, intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. Also, all truth and all intelligence are independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself. Indeed, spirits, notwithstanding any given one is more intelligent than another, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are eternal. (See D&C 93:29-30 and Abr. 3:18.)

Now, I do recognize the possibility that these scriptures could be interpreted differently, that is, when God placed intelligence in that sphere to act for itself, that was the moment we became who we fundamentally are. But I have just never believed that. From my point of view, the question on whether God is subject to the laws of the Universe first, or whether God created those laws first by which he governs, is irrelevant. In other words, when God says intelligence is eternal, what he’s getting at is the eternal nature of man. It’s that incomprehensible thing, when Jesus says stuff like “[I am] from all eternity to all eternity.” In other words, man as agent is eternal intelligence. It is this thing, the agency of man, that I believe has always existed.

There are, actually clues all about, as to how this might be true. Think on The Proclamation of the Family, for example. “Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.” Not exactly perfectly illustrative, but does show how some things are eternal by their very nature.

Mind you, I recognize that this is *my* take on key Church doctrines. But it is the way I see it, and it explains why I think A.I., at least as a singular event that supersedes Godhood, is fundamentally an incorrect possibility. Technology, it seems, will always be appendage to God and his agency. I do not believe any intelligence, in its most core/kernel essence, is or was created. It is eternal. It also explains Satan’s misery and artifice, since he has gone against who he fundamentally is, but then, that’s a different topic… :)

“Now the doctrine of translation is a power which belongs to this Priesthood. There are many things which belong to the powers of the Priesthood and the keys thereof, that have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world; they are hid from the wise and prudent to be revealed in the last times. Many have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fullness, but his is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead. “Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.” Now it was evident that there was a better resurrection, or else God would not have revealed it unto Paul. Wherein then, can it be said a better resurrection. This distinction is made between the doctrine of the actual resurrection and translation: translation obtains deliverance from the tortures and sufferings of the body, but their existence will prolong as to the labors and toils of the ministry, before they can enter into so great a rest and glory.”

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith 170)

Are priesthood powers ever realized through the assistance of human technology? Yes. The LDS Church relies heavily on human technology to assist with most priesthood ordinances.

“And now behold, as I spake concerning those whom the Lord hath chosen, yea, even three who were caught up into the heavens, that I knew not whether they were cleansed from mortality to immortality—But behold, since I wrote, I have inquired of the Lord, and he hath made it manifest unto me that there must needs be a change wrought upon their bodies, or else it needs be that they must taste of death; Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a change wrought upon their bodies, that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world. Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them. And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens. (3 Ne. 28:36-40)

Would you agree that, according to Mormon beliefs, the change wrought upon the bodies of these individuals must have been accomplished through adherence to natural law? Would you agree that such bodies are technologically superior to mortal humans? If we are God’s children, why can’t we someday learn to accomplish the same thing?

Furthermore, how would you rate God’s intelligence compared to ours? Could we not both agree that he is more intelligent than we are? If he is, and if we believe that we are members of the same species as God is, but are just in a different phase of progression, why would it be unreasonable to assume that someday we (God’s creations) could attain to the level of intelligence and power that He presently has? That is, after all, one of the fundamental tenets of Mormonism (as man is, God once was; as God is, man may become).

If we become as God, we must necessarily create as he creates, that is, make intelligent beings of varying degrees (plants, animals, humans and beyond). These intelligent beings must necessarily create too. As they progress, their creations will become closer and closer in complexity and power to those of God Himself, and so on and so forth, worlds without end.

Do you or I know how God created us? No. We have theories, some of which appear to be more supported by observation than others, but ultimately we don’t know at present.

I am arguing that we should make no arbitrary distinction between what is man-made and what is God-made. Everything that is created reflects the wisdom (or lack thereof) of its creator. As we progress in wisdom and intelligence and attain Godhood, our creations will more closely resemble those of God himself. It is therefore, in my opinion, ridiculous and faithless to assume that man’s creations will never achieve the status of God’s, for to assert this would be to assert the inherent and inescapable depravity of man–to assert that we are not God’s children.

After all, Christ himself said not only that we would be able to do His works, but even greater works than He did: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.” (John 14:12)