28 Comments | leave a comment | RSS 2.0 for this post | trackback |
“It’s Scientology plus 125 years.” If he really understood the beliefs of “Mormonism” he would realize that although the term “Mormon” is a term that has not always been around, the basic belief of the LDS faith is one that has been around from before the earth was created. |
so the truly erroneous looks at our religion have begun. it was inevitable that anti-Mormons also have their public national limelight. |
DKL, Excellent review of Slate’s hit piece. More well reasoned and thought out responses such as yours are needed to pieces like these, and Andrew Sullivan’s earlier diatribes against Romney and the Church. They are what they are: Anti-Mormon religious bigotry. They are the racial equivalent of the N word, and should not be tolerated. Thanks for your well done response. |
Perhaps all news articles should be approved by the correlation committee. Would that make you happy? |
His argument seemed to boil down to: I can tolerate a president believing ancient false ideas but not new false ones. Um . . . OK. |
I’ve never been too wild about Slate. This article certainly doesn’t increase my interest. |
Phouchg, I think you are mistaking a well reasoned, factually based response to Weisberg for a propoganda piece. DKL’s criticisms are aimed at the fallacious reasoning Weisberg employed to reach his result. In fact, DKL acknowledges a range of opinions can be held as to whether or not Joseph Smith was a fraud and while he disagrees with Brodie’s conclusion he lauds the rigor of her work. In short, DKL’s response itself wouldn’t make it past the correlation committee. |
#4, Phounchg, yes, that would make me ecstatic. Where do your sentiments lie/lay? Are you for or against Mitt? I’m against him, for the moment, because he’s too handsome. So, my fellow male bloggers, you are out as my presidential candidates. Too handsome by far, all of you. |
Really anne? Receding hairline notwithstanding? Well, I predicted earlier that much of the anti-Romney/anti-Mormon flack would be generated by the Left more than the Christian Right. Here’s the first salvo. |
Dave, |
Does this mean that in 2,000 years the Nazi Party will be acceptable? |
Yeah, the idea that 2,000 years of tradition somehow makes it more acceptable to believe in Noah/Jonah/resurrection/etc. is ludicrous. Nice analysis DKL. |
It really is amazing how poorly thought out that piece was. I think Derrida has written more clearly during druken boughts while pouring over Heidegger. Dave, you did a great job of pointing out the fallacies of the piece. It really does seem to come down to a position that looks like this: Now the people who accept #1 have a tough row to hoe, no doubt. In fact, it might always necessarily fall back to the claim that “well, I simply have faith and hope in things not seen.” This will not be a welcome reply to many. Those who speak with a religious vocabulary understand what is behind this claim. Once one accepts that this type of claim is possible, then one can argue over the particulars; i.e., engage in theology. Accepting #2 might be easier than #1 because it does rely on claims that are somehow other-worldly. I will grant that. Weisberg’s argument, and I am being gracious by calling it such, is simply silly. It is tantamount to telling my six year old I don’t believe that he saw martians because it happened so recently, but my granddaddy, well he saw martians and I believe him because it happened a long time ago. Either one accepts the possibility of martians or one doesn’t. (I suppose that one can remain agnostic on the claim but still I do believe that most agnostics fall closer to #2 than #1.) One last thought, I find it hard to believe that is willing to reject a person as a potential candidate for anything merely because he is a Mormon. Even if it is silly to believe in Mormonism, and even if Mormon culture is silly (I have had a lot of jello in my day), this still had no bearing on whether one would be a good president. I think that Weisberg would buy the argument that just because Clinton expressed his appreciation for Monica in ways that may be unbecoming of a president, does not mean that he is a bad president, just a bad husband. Many presidents have believed many silly things. Some of those presidents were great and some were horrible. One thing that is certain–Weisberg has yet to go over intro to informal logic. |
It is, I believe, doubtful that Weisberg has actually read Brodie. Good call, DKL. I really like your approach here, and you make pretty short work of Weisberg’s argument, such as it is. |
I am truly surprised that in this day and age someone would unleash such a hateful attack on someone else’s religion — all those unthinking LDS rants against Muslims notwithstanding. My principal beef with Weisberg is that he prefers to judge an LDS candidate by his (or her) religion rather than judge him or her as an individual. That, I learned at BYU, is morally indefensible. |
DKL, I think your response to the Slate piece well reasoned and clear in showing some of the logical defects embedded in it. What do you think of the author’s starting premise: is it appropriate to decide against a candidate based on the candidate’s professed religious views? I thought that the point drew a useful distinction between discrimination based on factors that do not (and should not) inform us about the capacity of an individual to govern, and a discrimination based on a factor that potential does tell us a lot about an individual’s capacity to govern (though, as you as you demonstrated, the conclusion and resulting discrimination can be wildly overbroad). Do you take issue with the starting premise, as well, or just its application in the article? |
Islam is newer than Christianity too, by about 600 years. Would Weisberg be making the same argument against a Muslim candidate for president? Protestantism is newer than Catholicism, by about 1500 years. Should Protestants be eliminated because they are relatively net? And what would the response be if Weisberg had written against a practicing Scientologist who was running for president? Would only Scientologists speak out? What should be the cut-off point? |
Bookslinger, regarding their practical impact on policy-making decisions, I think that religious beliefs are on an equal-footing with any other category of belief. Just as candidates might hold philosophical or political beliefs with practical consequences to which I’m averse, they might hold religious beliefs with practical consequences to which I’m averse. In the public realm, I don’t believe that question is whether a belief is religious (one could imagine a religion based on the political principles advanced by David Hume), but whether it will likely lead to good or bad consequences. For example, if someone believed that a free press was a bad idea, it wouldn’t make any difference whether that was inspired by sheer authoratarianism or because they felt that they needed to protect God’s truth. (Oddly, I think that most liberals are more tolerant of authoritarianism than religious fanaticism, though authoritarianism has proven far more dangerous historically.) Weisberg wants to propose a rule according to which certain religious beliefs can be considered to make someone fundamentally irrational, regardless of the practical import of those ideas. Since this creates a standard far too strong to be useful in practice, he attempts to establish a meaningful distinction between Mormon religious beliefs and the standard repertoire of Christian religious beliefs. Since (as I’ve demonstrated) his distinction fails, his proposed rule becomes useless. And it remains implausible to say that everyone who believes in Joseph Smith’s prophetic mission is unfit to hold office. Weisberg is a religious bigot, because he believes that certain religious beliefs make people politically undesirable simply by virtue of their adherence to them, and quite apart from any reasonably surmise-able consequences. This is, in part, why I’m not enthusiastic about my good friend Wayne L.’s criticism of George Bush based on whether his policy decisions seem to be founded on religion. They may well be bad policy decisions, but that is something more fruitfully addressed by leaving biographical questions relating to Bush’s motivations out of it. |
greenfrog, I state at the outset that I agree with the author’s initial premise:
I think that my response to Bookslinger addresses your other questions. |
Wayne L, I think Derrida has written more clearly during druken boughts while pouring over Heidegger. Dave, you did a great job of pointing out the fallacies of the piece. LOL. Well put, and thanks for the kind words. I agree with your reasoning. It identifies a weakness that I did not identify in my analysis. In the end Weisberg wouldn’t vote for Romney even if Romney were an atheist. |
I participated a bit in the discussion of Weisberg’s article in Slate’s Fray. Most of the commenters there, Mormon and non-, reacted similarly to DKL. Here’s the Fraywatch column that summarizes it. (I’m the estimable “Bionerd”—I know, worst handle ever.) Here’s the rest of my comment:
|
DKL,
Actually I don’t think he believes that. As I believe you have already stated he started with the premise that he doesn’t want Romney to be elected and worked backwards from there, which required him to make statements which are bigoted. But I think he did this hoping that people would buy his argument without thinking about it too much. If I had to guess he is probably even more of a bigot than we give him credit for. In his heart of hearts he probably hates all religions without regard for his 2,000 year rule, which even he would admit is illogical. But if he came out and said that then readers would ignore him. In any case I can’t prove that he thinks this, and I think that the arguments he does make are a sort of slight of hand, so taking them at face value to determine that he is a particular type of religious bigot seems like a bit of a leap. He may or may not be one, but it seems from this article that he is simply playing one on TV. I should note that I recently went to McCain campaign HQ, and rudely interrupted Senator McCain having fondue with Weisburg. |
arj, I’ll buy it that there’s a distinction between being a bigot and saying bigoted things on occasions. In this case, I don’t think that distinction holds when you say bigoted things in a public forum and urge that they be used as a basis for how to judge or to treat people. I agree with you that it’s quite likely that he hates all religions, but that this is more than is shown by his essay. McCain, of course, is a liberal Republican. I wonder how much of the attacks against Romney he’s silently helping (or even just applauding). I have a very low opinion of McCain. If he gets nominated, I’d either not-vote or I’d not-vote-Republican (which is much the same thing to me). McCain is quite simply a very loathsome man on any analysis, and it is plain bizarre that people find him politically attractive on any level; I suspect that they’ve simply watched too many political talk shows. |
DKL, My point isn’t that the essay isn’t bigoted, but that I doubt he believes what he is writing. His is exploiting bigotry for his own ends, but I don’t know that I would/could claim that he is a bigot from this essay. My guess is that he is even more bigoted than the essay, but I doubt that he is bigoted in the illogical way that the essay is. If #21 and this post don’t make any sense it is because #21 was written while I was up with my sick daughter at 4 am. This one you can chalk up to lack of sleep and trying to defend the previous one. |
arj, I think your comment makes great sense. I take it that we’re in basic agreement. Tom, (sorry your comment got put into the mod queue) thanks for tying this post into your discussion at the fray with you comment. Your argument is a very nice refutation from the empirical point of view, asking whether, in practice, Mormons are any less rational than others in professions that require acute rationality. It’s a relief to hear that reader’s reaction to Weisberg’s piece was so broadly negative. It’s very cool that you got quoted at such length there. |
It is amazing how early the whole anti-Mormon sentiment kicked in–when the man hasn’t even declared a decision to enter the presidential elect fray. (Though he will, undoubtedly. He almost let the cat out of the bag in a recent interview I listened to.) |
I actually like John McCain, but I feel that he, like Colin Powell, try to please all the people all the time and I don’t trust that. You’re not sure what they’ll really do because they never really commit to anything. Hey, you guys, I like Barak Obama. I’m so easy. I said the same thing about Bill Clinton. |
Most of your comments seem to say that if a candidate has been be able to separate his/her religious beliefs from his political decisions then its all OK. But I wonder if most of you would say the same thing about a Jewish candidate. Or perhaps a secular humanist? I would be willing to bet the answer is no. For the most part I agree with the Slate article’s premise that it becomes harder to have ‘faith’ in ones ability to make rational political decisions when he believe some guy (why is it always a man?) found golden plates in New York-come on! I mean how seriously can the average American take an organization that thinks beards are a no-no but a mustache is OK-again COME ON! I will admit that my knowledge of the LDS is very limited but so is my knowledge of Scientology but I think it safe to say that Scientology is a freak show and I bet you think the same. So again COME ON! |