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I’d have to agree that the Church (despite all the talk) doesn’t really do much to make anyone in the leadership structure accountable — the only saving grace being that there aren’t very many rotten apples in the orchard. Except for diverting money, of course. There’s not much members can do if they happen to be in the wrong place and are under the stewardship of such a person, especially missionaries. And it’s nice you resumed activity in the Church despite what sounds like a negative experience. Or two. David, I can’t help but think your experience is simply an illustration of the fact that some people simply have a low tolerance for working within institutions. And for most missionaries, life in the MTC and on a mission is their first such experience (since schools in general are fairly loose in terms of imposed conformity and required adherence to policies and rules). Not that there’s anything wrong with that. |
Really good stuff Dave. Seriously, I’m blown away by the detail of your experience. I agree with Dave that the saving grace of this reality that many church leaders have too much social power with too little accountability is that there really are very few bad apples in leadership. Thankfully the entire thrust of Christ’s message is to make good apples of us all and I think it mostly works. Plus I agree with Dave that folks who have, ummm, issues with authority (I’m looking at myself right now) have to navigate carefully in the highly structured environment of modern Mormonism. |
Japan, Fukuoka eh? That’s my mission. 1994-1996. In 1994, when I arrived Cyril I.A. Figuerres was Mission President, finishing the last few months of his tenure. He’d finished implementing a highly unusual and experimental pilot program called “The Ammon Project.” It was the culmination of years of research he had conducted and supervised personally at Church Headquarters on how to revise ill-suited American-style proselyting methods for the Japanese mindset and culture. The idea was to use Japan as a proving ground for proselyting methods that would be used throughout East Asia. By the time I got there, it was an electrifying atmosphere. Night and day from the MTC. Just about all the rules-centric culture of the MTC got thrown out the window and replaced by our own set of rules tailor-made for the mission. The missionaries in Fukuoka were unconventional, overwhelmingly self-confident and relentlessly focused on the end goal, even at the expense of the rules. My mission was full of very flamboyant personalities. It’s too bad you jumped ship when you did. I think you would have fit in well there. |
Seth R: It’s too bad you jumped ship when you did. Jumped ship? I think you missed the driving point of the story. I came prepared and determined to serve 2 years. They sent me home, Seth. |
Ouch! This is so sad! That whole experience breaks my heart! I feel really bad for you! |
So true. So very apt. Thank you for this post. As a missionary, I was your polar opposite. I was extremely self-abasing and trusted everyone above me in the hierarchy to know better that I did what was right for me. I served an honorable mission, coming home only when the full time was over, despite traumatic experience after traumatic experience caused by trying my damnedest to follow misguided orders and staying silent when told not to complain or “steady the ark.” It took years of therapy before I could even admit to myself that my mission president had been wrong to treat me the way he had; I had thought my misery was my fault, and that I was a bad missionary who failed at turning lemons into lemonade. Bizarrely, when I tell my story, people assume I was rebellious and argued with the mission president and didn’t obey mission rules. Not once did I contradict the mission president. Not once did I intentionally break any rule, and when I accidentally came home later than 9 or something, I launched into major repent-and-do-better mode. Apparently people only know one narrative: mission presidents are good, good missionaries have good experiences and stick it out, bad missionaries have bad experiences and go home early. My own bad experience affected me the way it did largely because I so fully bought into that narrative. I would give a lot to go back in time and have your experience instead. At least then people wouldn’t prod me into trying to find something nice to say about my mission, when the nice is so vastly outweighed by the awful. |
Armand “Mauss” [Note from the Admin: Matt's correction has been incorporated into the body of the post.] |
Yes DKL, I thought that the moment I hit post. The statement was completely casual, but unfortunately, I don’t have an “edit” button. |
Sounds like you got booted for being a smart-ass. Worse has happened, I suppose. You should just be glad that there weren’t any bears in the vicinity. But you left out the best part. You know, about how you railed against President Grant for a while on T&S (at the thread you link), until JG pointed out that Grant wasn’t really your MTC mission president. |
I have only one thing to say to your so-called post: 1. All missionaries are to arise by 6:30 a.m. |
DKL, it’s been less than a week since I checked the Social Security Death Index to see if my mission president was still living (apparently he is, although he would be past 90). When I see that he’s safely in his grave, I intend to dance a short but very heartfelt jig. Unlike you, however, I don’t have the guts to tell the story where I don’t know who would read it, or to sign my name here. That stigma, you know … |
Kaimi, Ask DKL if he *cares* (about bears, that is). DKL, Funny thing about church leadership–sometimes they’re right even when they’re wrong. I would say in your case, though, that they were just dead right. Sending you on a mission would’ve been like making Hugh Nibley a stake president–not only an utter disaster, but an utter waste of time, talent, and energy. |
Of course, Nibley may not be the best example as you probably believe that everything he did was a waste of time, talent, and energy. But that would be a subject for a different post. |
There’s supposed to be a compliment in there somewhere. |
so it’s always just the leaders’ faults, eh? this is a horrible story and a sad result (really, i don’t think you should have been sent home), but i’m hardly thinking it was just about the president. and you are still dragging the guys name through the mud and he’s dead. what happened to forgive and forget and all of that? let it go already, brother. it’s been 15 years. let it go. the lord will work with imperfect people. he expects us to, too. |
“I’m a bit frustrated here, because I feel like you’ve been twisting my words.” I would respond to President Klein, that many of us here on the bloggernacle often feel the same way in DKL’s presence. We commend you for not throwing your triple combination at him. |
the lord will work with imperfect people. he expects us to, too. p.s. obviously your president needed to remember that, too, but still…. |
Dave and Geoff, I don’t know that the church’s leadership is remarkably free from bad apples. I’d characterize the saving grace as the fact that few members actually have to deal with anything other than the local leadership structure. Bishops and stake presidents are given a good deal of autonomy, and being called from within the congregations over which they preside makes them uniquely qualified for and interested in their task. In my experience, these tireless but unsung heros generally do a bang-up job. As far as negative experiences with priesthood leaders, well, this isn’t the half of it. Whether I’m suited to work within institutions is a separate issue. I’m trying to drive at the larger issue of how church leaders impose stigmas, and how we, as a membership, willingly enforce them. Seth, LOL on your latest comment. I have a talent for getting people to veritably froth at the mouth over practically nothing — even here in the bloggernacle; witness my banning from Times and Seasons years ago. Beijing and Cowardly RLM, there are a lot of people who share this negative experience with mission presidents. Every time I’ve broached the topic on the ‘nacle, I’ve received emails from people who provide similar stories. Kaimi, yes, not caring enough to remember the fellow’s name has had some odd consequences. I do link to the thread wherein I made the mistake. My original draft read, “Honestly, I didn’t even care enough to remember the poor guy’s name. Having spoken to a friend with similar experiences, I had at one point supposed that his name was ‘Grant,’ until Jonathan Green convinced me that my MTC mission president was named ‘Richard K. Klein’” I deleted the italicized portion in favor of the link to improve the flow. The fact is that there are enough such stories about mission presidents that the names hardly matter. That’s much more to the point, I think. mami, Geoff, Beijing, and Jack, thanks for the kind words about my post and about my experiences. anonon: you state, “so it’s always just the leaders’ faults,” but this poses a false dichotomy. I can freely rail against the notion that it’s always the members faults without absolving them of any wrong-doing. Furthermore, whether I’ve “let it go, already” is an altogether separate issue. After all, I’m not attacking Klein. I’m attacking the social outlook of members who enable such behavior by enforcing the attendant stigmas. Klein’s behavior is regrettable, but we all make mistakes. His alleged mistake is relevant to the title of my post only because he’s ipso facto absolved from any wrong-doing in the eyes of most members. Yes, it was 15 years ago. And in the 15 years since my arrival and departure from the MTC, nothing has changed to empower those missionaries and their parents who are faced with such situations. It is, regretfully, at least as relevant today as it was then. |
Both my mission presidents expressed grief in being “forced” to send a missionary home because of mis behavior(I’m talking legit reasons like a relationship with a married member of a ward and kissing a 12 year old girl). So even the one’s that deserved to be sent home early they felt bad about because they knew too well of the stigma and the common results of it(inactivity etc.) In fact, my first MP would often threaten missionaries with going home early but later confessed it was all talk. He wanted nothing more than to help them right the ship. I feel sad that the MP of the MTC didn’t have more compassion on you D. I guess he forgot Section 121. On the stigma issue, “judge not” is really one of the greatest teachings of Christ. It’s too bad many of us are so guilty of it. |
An amazing story. I had my own run-in with my MTC president (I forgot his name — just that he was bald and smiled a lot, except when he got mad). A friend of mine was getting baptised in Provo, and had asked me to perform the ordinance. I went to the pres. to get permission to go, which I figured was a no-brainer. He grilled me and made me grovel about it. I said, ‘Is this really a problem? I mean, I am going to baptise someone!’ And he went a bit crazy, turning red and spouting on about leaving the world behind and the need for discipline, and I was thinking, if he says no I’ll go anyway. But he finally said yes, and that was that. I do have to say something about authority, though. As a school teacher, I have sometimes found myself having to be rigid about something mundane (tardiness, bringing a pencil to class, mobile phones ringing) because I feel my authority demands an oppositional position, and I can’t back down somehow. (And I really need to maintain authority.) Later it seems quite foolish, but in the moment it just happens. I think most parents have found themselves in that corner at one time or another. I’m not terribly surprised by the initial interaction in DKL’s interview — especially if he felt a bit insecure about the authority he was entrusted with — but to have him sent home seems to extend that heated moment beyond its own momentum. Cooler thinker ought to have prevailed, and it even seems like an attempt to cover-up his own insecurity. Still, I guess my point is that when we are in authority we sometimes end up doing weird stuff. |
I think President Klein was my MTC President as well (though I couldn’t have told you the name before I read it). I seem to recall that he had a reputation for scaring young missionaries to go to his office to confess, after which many of them got sent home. I don’t recall being very impressed by the man. I had an interesting relationship with my mission president. I think we both ended up mutually respecting each other, but we had a very tense, almost confrontational moment that would take too long to relate here. I guess I should feel grateful that he didn’t react the way that Klein did, or I might have gotten sent home as well. |
The lack of empowerment is perpetuated with silly excercises during meetings when those in the audience who are returned missionaries are asked to stand. I get a kick out of remainging steadfast in my seat, despite having served faithfully w/o the scars like those who’ve posted here and other places, and watching others almost spin like tops looking around the room/chapel to see who is standing and who is sitting. I especially get a kick out of the looks on the faces of people who know me and see me sitting with the great unwashed masses of non-RMs. I can only imagine what type of judging is going through their minds, not that I care, but I bet it would be funny if it were revealed. Still, I refuse to participate in these spiritual beauty contests. But, this is a situation that will never change. There are probably a lot more stories of guys like DKL who, for a multitude of non-sin related reasons didn’t go or weren’t allowed to finish a mission. The unfair judgments of small minded members are, unfortunately, here to stay. Perhaps, if every similarly situated person like DKL, assuming all other things are in order, were called to be bishops and/or stake presidents, then the unfair stigma would begin to fade. Since that won’t happen, folks who find themselves in situations like DKL will have to develop a thick skin. FWIW, they have my support as I continue to sit with them when asked to join my fellow RMs in standing for officious, silly and pompous public displays of righteousness. |
Seth R.: I would respond to President Klein, that many of us here on the bloggernacle often feel the same way in DKL’s presence. We commend you for not throwing your triple combination at him. My freshman semester at BYU, a friend of mine was teasing me about something and it was getting on my nerves. I don’t know what happened, but at some point I just grabbed the closest book available and hucked it at him. He saw it coming and tried to run away, but it hit him square in the trunk of his back. It turned out I hit him with my copy of Talmage’s Jesus the Christ. Afterwards we had some good laughs about that particular choice. |
That the stigma remains is more of a mystery to me when one considers the company of people like DKL: Dallin Oaks, Elder Eyring (I think) and Elder Uchtdorf. I’m going off the top of my head, but there may be others of the Q of 12 who did not serve missions for whatever reason. There may be some GAs who did not serve missions, but,with all due respect, I don’t follow their life histories closely. |
His alleged mistake is relevant to the title of my post only because he’s ipso facto absolved from any wrong-doing in the eyes of most members. i’m not convinced that is the only reason… after all, you could tell the story without bringing names into the thing. but, that’s my opinion and it doesn’t matter much…. fwiw, i do think it really is a sad story all around and i really am sorry you had to go through it. so, do most members who hear this story absolve him? (i ask because i see there is compassion here from those who hear the story). i wonder if part of the stigma is based in ignorance. of course, we shouldn’t judge anyway, but knowing someone’s circumstance can sometimes help us judge less. it’s easier to know someone’s heart when you know the circumstance, ya know? at least it is for me, humanly weak person that i am. The best news of the entire affair was that my girlfriend (now my wife) waited for me the entire time! I still can’t get a straight answer out of her about whether she kissed anyone while I was on my mission, but she was (at least) not in a serious relationship with anyone when I returned. btw, this was truly funny. |
There may be some GAs who did not serve missions, but, with all due respect, I don’t follow their life histories closely. Of course President Howard Hunter didn’t do a mission, but he did serve honorably in a cruise ship jazz ensemble. |
One of the worst chewings out I got from a church leader was when I complained about having to deal with the church’s bureaucracy. When he was through, I told him that on my mission I had heard Pres Hinckley himself (as an apostle) half-jokingly say that he believed the church’s bureaucracy was a mark of the True Church: only the Lord Himself could figure out how to make it do anything. |
But was President Hunter unceremoniously booted from the ensemble for playing one note off-key? |
One thing to note though by the appeal to current GAs. The pressure for all men to go on missions didn’t really start until the mid 70′s. Any “stigma” resulted after that by pressure on young women to marry returned missionaries. I think that somewhat silly, but at the same time I can understand why some women do this. They want some evidence for “spirituality” in potential mates. I think most are naive to think merely being an RM is a good indicator of that – I simply saw too many problem missionaries out there. The biggest problem is that at 19 simply not all young men are emotionally or socially mature to be on a mission. However they might later. But we tend to have a one size fits all view of missions and marriage. I’ve said it a lot, but I think many if not most people would be better off marrying a little later when mature. I managed to make it through my mission with only one blow up with my MP (who I later came to respect when I matured enough to understand the problem of being in a leadership position – mainly due to my own struggles at leadership on my mission) I was pretty socially immature at the time and many of those who were far more successful simply were more mature and also able to play the social games that are part and parcel of success in any institution. Having said all that, I think we all tend to look for social approval from Church when that simply seems silly to me. Most “stigma” and the like tends to be as much self-imposed as anything. |
DKL,
There are simpler explanations for why missions are a good experience for many, some of which do not require spiritual experiences at all. The military is also a strict culture with conformist rules, but many who have served there regard as great life experiences their tours of duty in hard circumstances experienced together with comrades at a young age. I certainly appreciate my mission more for these attributes than because I was browbeaten by a mission president’s little rules. Seth, Re: the Ammon Project, I arrived one mission to the north in 1995, where rumors of the Ammon Project flew fast and furious (missionaries can play basketball all day long = scores of people getting baptized). When Rex Pinegar became the new Area Authority sometime thereafter, he came to our mission and deflated our wildest hopes in roundly denouncing the Ammon Project as a limited, failed experiment that was not to be imitated. So much for innovation in the mission field. |
As is noted in the T&S thread that DKL linked to, I had similar experience in the office of the President of the MTC a few years later. Different president, different outcome (I didn’t get sent home) but same assertion of authority for no apparent reason. I found the interaction to be highly offensive. |
[including MTC presidents and mission presidents] |
#22 “I can only imagine what type of judging is going through their minds,” But the truth is, we can’t read their minds, and it is just as likely that no judgment is going on at all. |
I’ve enjoyed reading this story each time you’ve told it around the ‘nacle. I think I like it partially because I can vicariously “talk back” to the few bishops or authority figures who have brow beat me over the years. (Of course, most bishops or authority figures I’ve interacted with have been great.) My few questions: The day after your run-in with the Mish Pres, did you fight their decision to kick you out at all? For example, couldn’t you have refused to pack? Couldn’t you have called your parents? Your lawyer? :) Could your former BYU ward bishop (who picked you up) talked to the Mission President on your behalf? Do you think it would have mattered? Or were you ready to go? Was there a part of you that wanted to go back to your girlfriend, or school, or whatever? I’m not saying such a feeling absolves the Mission President, I’m just curious where your head was at? After two weeks at the MTC, had I been offered a way out through, ostensibly, no fault of my own, I might have taken it. |
Thanks for the story. It has been a long time since I have heard it. It speaks to the imperfect people who asset authority sometimes a bit to zealously. I can vouch for your girlfriend (now wife) that she was true and faithful to you for the entire time. I am glad you are back – the Church needs more people like you and your lovely wife. |
re: 33 You may be correct; although, I doubt it. We can’t read minds, but the sublte and not so sublte treatment of those who are perceived not to have measured up to some vague and at times artifical standard is very real. I don’t think DKL is making this up. It’s a sad and probably an unavoidable human condition that is reinforced when people are asked or expected to parade their putative righteousness. For those poor souls who don’t quite measure up, including me, or are unfairly perceived not to measure up, it might be challenging, to the extent we even care or are concerned about what others think. About a year ago our Bishop sold his house and bought another one outside of the ward boundaries, so a new bishop had to be called. We were new to the ward, but during a conversation with a sister she asked me who I thought would be the new bishop. Not really caring and not knowing many people in the ward, I tossed out the name of a guy I worked with in the YM presidency. This sister shot back “he will never be selected, he has been divorced.” I don’t know for sure, but I don’t think there is a prohibition on divorcees who have remarried being called as bishops. To that point I did not know this good person had been divorced and didn’t care-still don’t. He wasn’t called, but a year later I still think he would make a great Bishop. You are probably more correct that my comment painted with way too broad of a brush. There are probably many who look around out of curiosity and don’t think twice about those who are not standing. |
Hi Dave! Your children are puking all over my house. I don’t think it would have made a difference or not had you made it through the MTC, they would still be puking. |
lief, Sounds about right. There was some bad mojo going on between the Ammon Project and its advocates and then Area President Sorenson. Pres. Sorenson was a traditionalist who served in the American Deep South and he apparently never did reconcile with Japanese culture and needs. We all knew he was a vehement opponent of the Ammon Project and he proved as much at a zone conference where he spoke personally. Of course, Pres. Figuerres was also reporting directly to Neal A. Maxwell and kind of bypassing Pres. Sorenson altogether. Perhaps that was part of the problem. It also didn’t help that once Pres. Figuerres left, his successor had a hard time keeping the whole program going. I love my second mission president. A great man. But it wasn’t his program. He tried as hard as he could to keep it alive, but he got zero support from Tokyo. I also think the missionaries simply weren’t independently disciplined and mature enough to keep a program like that going without abusing the privileges associated with it. There was a bit of a meltdown in the espirit de corps of the missionary force and a general lack of discipline that crept in once the core “Ammon missionaries” gradually went home. Really I doubt the project survived two years after Figuerres left. I really ought to do a blog post on the Ammon Project sometime… Unfortunately, I wasn’t the most attentive missionary and the memories are fading. |
Good post. I think the stigma attached to coming home early from one’s mission might even be worse than that attached to never going. Unfortunately people usually assume the worst when a poor 19-year-old kid comes home early, even though it may have had nothing to do with sin or personal worthiness (but even if it did, would that justify judgment or ostracism?). For what it’s worth, Richard Klein was my wife’s grandfather. I only knew him in his post-MTC, post-Area Authority days. From what I understand, he was very stern in his Church callings, but in his defense, he was one of the kindest men I ever met. When it came to his family, he couldn’t have been gentler. |
DKL, it may be that by leaving the MTC your life turned out better than what it would be had you gone on to the mission field. Sometimes God uses less-than-perfect (ok, sometimes he even uses “bad” people) to accomplish his goals. God gave you the opportunity to serve a mission. And for whatever reason, God took back that opportunity. What does it matter that he used an a-hole to take it back? One of my favorite sayings of Epictetus is: 11. Never say of anything, “I have lost it”; but, “I have returned it.” Is your child dead? It is returned. Is your wife dead? She is returned. Is your estate taken away? Well, and is not that likewise returned? “But he who took it away is a bad man.” What difference is it to you who the giver assigns to take it back? Maybe everything you were going to learn on your mission, you had already learned in those two weeks. I deeply regret going on a mission. Everything I learned in those 2 years was learned in my 2 months at the MTC. I didn’t learn a darn thing in the mission field. My time in the mission field was a personally destructive experience. While my group was waiting in the Salt Lake City airport, after our 2 months at the MTC, waiting to catch our out-going flight, the Holy Ghost gave me short vision, or gift-of-discernment, and showed me why I shouldn’t go, and told me not to go, and literally said “If you go, they’ll destroy you.” I didn’t think God would tell me not to go on a mission, so I dismissed those thoughts as coming from Satan, and forgot about them for a long time. 16 years later, I was angrily shaking my fist at God for allowing a bad mission to screw up my life, and asking why he screwed me over. The answer was “Don’t you remember me telling you not to go?” And the memory of that event in the SLC airport replayed in my mind. I pondered why I had even been called on a mission if that was the case. And the answer was: I was to learn some things about the church and its members at the MTC that I couldn’t have learned at home. IE, God wanted me to spend 2 months at the MTC, but he didn’t want me to complete that mission. It’s been 23 years since that day at the SLC airport, and now, finally, I see the wisdom in it. Maybe someday, far in the future, God will show each of us a movie of what would have happened if our lives had taken the turns we wanted instead of the way he wanted. (Sort of how like Q gave Capt Picard a view of what would have happened if Picard hadn’t gotten into a fight when he was in Starfleet Academy.) So instead of viewing your run-in with the MTC pres as his fault versus your fault or whatever combination therefore, perhaps take the bigger view of: that’s the way it was supposed to be. And by saying that, I don’t mean to dismiss your other points of unrighteous dominion or unrighteous stigmas in the church. Those exist too, but are really on peripheral issues. |
cj douglass, I don’t mean to say that many missionaries don’t need to get sent home, of course. The stories that everyone tells, however, are about the ones who got sent home because of serious transgression. I doubt that Klein enjoyed being “forced” to send me home. I know enough people who got screwed over on their missions to see that it’s quite likely that mission presidents prefer to talk about the obvious cases more than the borderline cases. Norbert, your story validates my statement to Kaimi that these kinds of things happen often enough that the names don’t really matter. BTD Greg, you’re interaction is, I think, more typical of most experiences people have that involve conflicts with church authority. rbc, I agree completely. anonon, you ask, “so, do most members who hear this story absolve him?” Frankly, yes. Read my reply to Clark and Tammy belowe. Also, the fact that I’ve got to explain this entire occurrence in order for people to understand indicates where the presumption of blame lies. I’m glad you thought that last, closing comment was funny. I was hoping that people would find the entire article to humorous. gst, LOL. Clark, I was, incidentally, 21 when I went on my mission. Clark and Tammy, I don’t think it’s incorrect to state that such stigmas are self imposed. I’ll go so far as to say that’s just another way of saying, “All is well in Zion.” I know a women who’s daughter’s boyfriend was sent home. The mother was quite concerned, to say the least, and she maintained strong reservations about her daughter’s boyfriend until two of her sons got sent home from the MTC. If her two sons hadn’t have gotten sent home for ridiculous reasons, if that experience hadn’t have opened her eyes, then she may well have always harbored her misgivings of her daughter’s boyfriend. You’ll not convince me that this isn’t a very typical outlook. lief, there are a multiplicity of explanations for why missionaries find missions to be rewarding. Structure and rigor may well be one of them, but, missionary life isn’t really any more structured than the life of the average employed father with children, and it certainly doesn’t compare to military life. In any case, Stockholm Syndrome is, I think, a pretty simple explanation. |
Matt Thurston, it’s like getting sent home from Scout Camp. Nobody was going to do anything about the fact that I got thrown out of the MTC. My parents weren’t going to use their lawyer to deal with the church, and my BYU ward bishop wasn’t going to challenge the authority of a mission president. I didn’t want to go home, there’s just nothing else to be done. Devyn, thanks for the kind words. This story must be quite old to you. Sherrif, sorry about the carpet man. Let me know how much it costs to get it cleaned. Steve M, I don’t doubt that Klein was a loving parent, a good father, and rendered good service to the church. He wasn’t called to be a mission president or area authority because he was a monster. Bookslinger, Thanks for relating your story, and thanks for the kind words. |
DKL: “I don’t think it’s incorrect to state that such stigmas are self imposed. I’ll go so far as to say that’s just another way of saying, “All is well in Zion.” Clark beckons for someone with the gift of tongues. (Just kidding, I do that all the time) Assuming you are saying that I’m saying, “all is well in Zion,” let me say that I think I’m saying quite the opposite. Rather I’m saying that this self-imposed stigmatization is an example of saying all is well in Zion. That is those who stigmatize are missing the point of the gospel. So I think we’re saying much the same thing. I think the big problem for most members is that it is all too easy to coast. To assume that superficial commitment to the gospel (the “appearances”) are what makes someone a Saint. It’s unfortunate and is what leads to a lot of silliness and ultimately broken hearts in the church. (The bad kind of broken heart) So I definitely think we as a people have the Nephite disease far too often. Always surprising to me given how much Seminary focuses in on this. You’d think we’d learn but somehow it’s always “the other guy.” |
DKL, Just to clarify, I wasn’t trying to absolve Richard Klein of whatever mistakes he made in his Church service. |
I lost my childlike awe of those in authority while on my mission. My mission pres called former football players to serve in the mission home so that he could have his own personal football team to play the local college team. I wondered how that fit in with “a man must be called by inspiration”. My MP would not send home a missionary who quit working his last 9 months. Instead he was made DL. He still did nothing. No tracting, not teaching, no studying, no etc. The upside of having a flakey MP was that we got to see General Authorities on a regular basis, since they came by frequently to call the MP back in line. Sometimes a calling is not necessarily inspired. More along the lines of earthly “who you know”. My last SP bragged that he was called as temple president because he knew GBH. We have to realize that the earthly church is lead by fault-ridden men. Just remember not to let ANY MAN drive a wedge between you and God. |
DKL, I was trying to point out that assuming that many return missionaries say they enjoyed their missions only because they were hostages in constant fear for their lives is such hyperbole that it betrays underlying biases that cast your story in a less sympathetic light. A simpler explanation is that there is some social pressure to say nice things about missions in the church. If telling white lies to maintain social pleasantry is what you call Stockholm Syndrome, then I guess we are talking about the same thing. Also, some of us managed to engage in our missions in meaningful and constructive ways while managing to maintain personal dignity and even our very wits about us. It is disappointing that such positive experiences would automatically be assumed to be the result of hostage psychology when I, for instance, am otherwise disposed to agree with your larger point about the stigma. |
Well, sure, lief, but if you think that the Stockholm Syndrome line makes the story less sympathetic, then keep in mind that I added the Stockholm Syndrome line because it struck me as pretty funny. |
That’s what I was hoping! |
DKL: This story and the link where you explain about your time away from the church have been very illuminating and interesting to me. I feel like I know you a little now and maybe understand you a little. (I still wonder when you waited tables and had Bill Maher as a customer, however.) I had a friend who had a similar experience and it always made me very angry on his behalf. Learning to be a missionary is tough enough without having to contend with unsupportive and irresponsible behavior like this from the leaders who you expect to be helping, not hindering, the process of training and preparing missionaries. Thanks for explaining all this. |
BTW, I just saw the picture and your wife is, in fact, one hot babe. |
The Stockholm Syndrome line was funny. To some it probably came across as provocative, but I chuckled. Are you sure you didn’t sercretly serve a mission or are you just an astute observer of RMs? |
Lief, “I was trying to point out that assuming that many return[ed] missionaries say they enjoyed their missions only because they were hostages in constant fear for their lives is such hyperbole that it betrays underlying biases that cast your story in a less sympathetic light.” Stockholm Syndrome is more of a brainwashing (often unintended) that takes place under a very stressfull situation by people with absolute authority over you. It is not a consciously performed survival technique done out of fear. SS is not _pretending_ to side with the kidnappers in order to survive. SS victims actually buy into the kidnappers’ story, and identify with them. Sure, there is fear used in the process. But your characterization of Stockholm syndrome is off the mark, IMO. I identified immediately with DKL’s Stockholm Syndrome remark. There’s more than a smidgen of truth to it. In my mission, starting with day one at the MTC in 1984, there were plenty of situations of emotional and spiritual abuse under the color of authority. Sad, but true. Although it was not an excuse on my part, my abusive side came into full play during the mission, partly because of the examples of abusive leadership I observed. “Oh, so that’s how you’re supposed to treat missionaries. Okay, I’ll play that. If they do that in the true church, it must be the right thing.” I bought into the unspoken lie that abuse was okay. I bought into the unspoken lie that abuse was not abuse. I bought into the mindset that if someone in authority in the church chews you out, you must have done something to deserve it. I bought into the mindset that you should _never_ complain/murmur about leaders in the church, because they would _never_ do anything out of line. I just unconsciously bought into the mindset. Granted, I have an abusive streak in my personality that fit right in, but I was also following their lead. I’m not saying that all glowing reports of mission service are a result of SS. I don’t think DKL meant it either. I believe most MP’s are great guys. But I still believe that every branch president whom I heard speak at the weekly assemblies during my 8 or 9 weeks in the MTC in 1984 was an arrogant and condescending ass. And I want to point out that that leaves open the possibility that the MTC branch presidents who didn’t speak at assemblies were okay guys. A lot of souls, who got emotionally and/or spiritually wounded on their mission by fellow missionaries or by misison leadership, are suppressing a lot of hurt and a lot of the truth about the negative aspects of some missionary experiences. Therefore raising the bar for missionaries is a good thing. A very good thing. Let’s prepare those teens a heck of a lot better. The corollary is that I hope the bar for mission presidents, MTC presidents, and MTC branch presidents gets correspondingly raised too. I suffered from a bad mission for 16 years before the Lord kicked my butt back to church and started the healing process. I had a burned-in testimony of the gospel and the church. I wanted to resolve the conflict of true-church/bad-leaders by trying to believe the church wasn’t true, but I couldn’t. I had to resolve it by placing the blame on myself, believing I wasn’t good enough for the gospel. It was only by finally realizing that those “others” could have been “not good enough” (read: assholes) that the light started to shine. Trying to obey the unspoken rule of “don’t speak ill of missions” and the often-verbalized and often-emphasized rule “don’t speak ill of leaders” literally prevented me from resolving the trauma of one really screwed up mission. And I suffered during a significant portion of my adult life over it. So really, DKL did a good thing, but he should have carried it farther, and gone up the chain of command. “Hey, you have an unrighteous dominion type, arrogant, condescending control freak as your MTC president. Did you guys really intend that, or is that an aberration?” I wish I had had the guts to tell my BP and assistant BP at the MTC to their faces that they came across as arrogant condescending assholes. And they were, especially in comparison with the many humble leaders I had encounterd during my church tenure before then, and during the time since I’ve come back to church. |
My BP at the MTC was just fine. There was a bit of rebelliousness going on in my MTC District, one elder even went AWOL for a few hours. But though I often detected a bit of frustration in my Branch Presidency over the ongoing dramas of our little group, they never became too heavy-handed. I have to admit, I have just never seen even a single instance of these mysteriously pervasive “abusive authorities.” |
Seth, I’m very glad that it is rare. Other mitigating factors are that some people have a knack for provoking abuse, and others are overly sensitive to overbearing authority figures. My heart goes out to those in the ex-mo community who lost their testimony because of abusive or overbearing leaders, and to those wounded souls who stay in the church, but get ground down by the “support your leaders at any cost” crowd, or the “that can’t happen in the true church” crowd, or the “it must have been your fault” crowd. It’s rare, but it _does_ happen. After reading some of DKL’s writing on the bloggernacle, I can see how some ‘naclers would fall into the “it must have been your fault” crowd in regards to DKL’s MTC story. However, having been on the receiving end of MTC pomposity, condescension, and arrogance, I can understand his story, and know where he’s coming from. Back to the other side of the coin, when you have a few thousand high-spirited teenagers living in close quarters, attempting to make a huge lifestyle change, I can see how the GA’s (the ones over the MTC) felt like they needed strong-willed and heavy-handed men to keep those high-spirited 19 year olds in line. And add to that the pre-raise-the-bar kind of missionaries (wink, wink, just go on a mission, nudge, nudge) who were sent out in the 80′s and 90′s, many of whom thought it was a 2 year vacation, and many of whom grew up listening to dads, uncles, and older brothers telling wild and wooly stories; perhaps a degree of heavy-handedness was necessary. Though if that was (or is) the case, I still have trouble reconciling that with Section 121. My advice to anyone contemplating a mission, is that it is a voluntary service. You voluntarily go on a mission, and at any time, you have just as much right to voluntarily return on your own. I would not lose one ounce of respect for a missionary who came home early on his own and gave his reason as intolerable treatment by fellow missionaries or by mission (or missionary department) leadership. Since coming back to church, I’ve read plenty of mission horror stories on the web (by ex-mos, and by members, both active and inactive) that have the ring of truth based on my own experiences. And I also want to emphasize that the vast majority of missions served and mission experiences are positive. This is the true church. It’s like the title page on the Book of Mormon, if there are mistakes they are the faults of men, not God. The church and the gospel are true in spite of all us imperfect sinful men. Jesus is the only one who walked this earth as a perfect mortal. And if we want him to forgive us our sins, we have to forgive those who sin or offend against us. |
Well said Bookslinger. |
One day I’d love to post extensively on the various abuses of authority that I saw on my mission and my reactions (and sometimes lack thereof) to them. I think we do a horrible job of preparing prospective missionaries for what they will encounter in the mission field, and discussing these problems prior to missions would help eradicated them. Unfortunately such posts would also be a music to the ears of getreal and his ilk and might do serious harm as well as substantial good. |
Good post. DKL, I know you think I’m a total AH because I’m crude and blunt when it comes to the sad theater of the absurd that constitutes our church. But I have to say a fish stinks at the head. The GAs aren’t dumb. They are fully aware of this stigma in LDS culture. They are also happy to throw away most of the members. You were nothing more to that MTC MP bully than the paper he wipe himself with that day. By never citing the sin of this sick judgmental bullying culture, the GAs are active participants in it. I’ve read your story before but didn’t realize BYU moved to expel you. That is one evil bureaucracy. I’ve given my kids enough info regarding BYU that I don’t have to worry about them going there, but even I didn’t realize it was that wicked. |
I put this post off because I haven’t had the necessary time to study it out. Right now I’m typing with a chatty six year old talking my ear off. Life is going a million miles an hour. And it’s up to 57 comments. I still need to study this issue because my problem with authority figures gets me into so much trouble. The stake presidency as a whole dislikes me. They all avoid me. No lie. It bothers me, but doesn’t rise to the level of hurt feelings. I sort of hold them in disdain. Which I digressed while explaining that, like Arnold, “I’ll be back.” |
I received an “honorable” discharge from my mission even though I was sent home almost one year early. I was a troubled missionary. My first companion physically assaulted me at the temple but my pres blamed me for the incident. My second companion was one of the laziest SOBs on the planet (up at the crack of 10am followed by four hours studying not necessarily mission-appropriate material) but that was my fault because he had heretofore been quite a productive Elder. My third companion falsified my reports to the mission pres so that they would jive with his own. My fourth companion was obsessed with riding his bike to the exclusion of any other activities (including proselyting). My mission president declared me a bad influence even though among the missionaries I had the reputation for being the straightest of arrows. I was scolded repeatedly and called to repentance even though I couldn’t figure out what I was supposed to repent of. Finally, he got sick of me and sent me home without any real explanation. When asked I do confess to having served a mission but I never tell anyone that I didn’t serve a full two years because of the fear of the stigma that might be attached to me permanently. My own parents to this day don’t believe I was sent home “for nothing.” I obviously must have transgressed in some grave way otherwise I would not have been sent home early. My own experience has taught me a lot about judging others based on our own expectations. |
Bookslinger, I think that there are a lot of types of missionary experiences. Just as it’s not my place to judge the integrity or veracity of those who claim to have had some kind of “positive” missionary experience, it’s not the place of those who had positive missionary experiences to judge those who had negative experiences. Missionaries and leaders alike would be well served if missionaries were prepared to react appropriately to brow-beating leaders. This doesn’t necessarily mean bating and scorning them until they explode, but leadership is a two way street. Priesthood authority deserves to be held every bit as accountable as they wish to hold those under them. arj, I’d love to read your stories. I agree that such things are not talked about often enough. Steve EM, I don’t think that you’re an asshole at all, actually. I agree with you that the church actively exploits stigmas to shape or influence behavior. I’m also think it likely that Klein hadn’t the slightest interest in me personally. The title of my post is intended to implicate all those who are complicit. In fairness to BYU, I got kicked out three years later for not going to church. BYU was indifferent to my plight as a missionary until it came time to assess whether I should be allowed to attend BYU while I got my attendance back up. Here’s an aside: The BYU provost I spoke with at the time of my expulsion also indicated that he’d inquired about me to the BYU Philosophy department (I was a philosophy major). He reported that they had indicated (like the MTC) that I was argumentative and belligerent — so much so that the provost advised me to seek professional help. I can understand the MTC giving a bad report, but I was disappointed to hear a really negative report come from this small group of teachers (there weren’t that many of them; maybe 11) 5 or 6 of whom I’d taken several classes from, had many friendly interactions with, and received very good grades from. It was, of course, obvious from the unusually poor faculty attendance at my student philosophy presentations that I was not there favorite student. But was it really too much to expect that that they say something positive about me when my college career was on the line? Honestly, I just do not feel a strong sense of kinship with Mormons in general. endlessnegotiation, I can relate to your story. Thanks for relating them here. Hearing stories like yours make it especially infuriating to hear people claim that the stigma is “all in the missionary’s head.” annegb, please do come back. I’m interested in your thoughts on the matter. |
My Mission President was very well-respected. He spoke of baptizing those with true conversions. Also, he said that he would receive direction as to what his role of as a Mission President was to be and that one of the goals was to help the missionaries have a positive mission experience. This was in the early 90′s. All of my missionary companions had a testimony and a love for the people. I never had any major tramautic event happen on my mission. I felt more strongly about going on a mission than anything that I had ever done in my life. I had some depression before joining the Church. I also had a little obsessiveness but nothing that really kept me from having a quality life. Going on a mission was so hard for me and coming off the stress of the mission coupled with the extreme mental abuse before my mission in my home that included a lot all out rages, screaming, and breaking things by a parent and the returning of that enviroment that became progressively worse when I returned all seemed to add to my chemical imbalance. It was hard for me to come to terms to why I would be sent on a mission when I was so happy prior to my mission even in abusive home circumstances and doing so well. I was growing so much in the Gospel. I still believe I was supposed to go on a mission. And I have grown a lot and am much more stable. I think of my mission constantly and the good people that I knew there. There were many choice experiences. Perhaps I would have suffered a breakdown regardless. I felt God’s love in such an overwhelming way as I prepared for a mission and felt at times that I could never repay God for those blessed moments when Heaven seemed so near. The Gospel had changed my life. When I became depressed at about my 9th month as a missionary, I could no longer look at the Gospel as delivering me from depression. So much of what I experienced was so internal. Nothing happened that would account for how very shaken up I felt inside and the pressure and bitterness and despair that I felt. My Mission President was very supportive. He asked if I was on any medications. I had never been at that point. He asked what I wanted him to do. In my second to last area, he offered me the option of going home. I finished my entire misison going home at the originally appointed time. I was going through all the motions upon my return not being able to confide in friends how I felt though I did make my Bishop aware that I may need therapy. Perhaps a stitch in time would have saved nine if I would have followed through on the therapy recommended by my Mission President following my mission. Or maybe if I had done as my Mission President said and only stayed in my home two weeks after my mission, I would have been okay. After all, how are you supposed to get better with severe ocd in an abusive situation? But now I can’t take care of myself to move out. The Catch 22 of my life. Things are going good right now, but with intermittent explosive disorder type people, you just don’t know what the future holds. And it is not like you can be really open with people if things get bad. People really don’t want to know! |
Just stumbled onto this looking for something else and felt the need to comment. When I read this line: “Did the spirit tell you to start into this canned performance?” I learned all I needed to know in order to understand the situation perfectly. |
That’s great, frgough. Would you care to share this newfound light and knowledge about the situation? |
We all get enough rope to hang ourselves with. |
How true. And some more than others. |
DK: |
Goodness, I thought I was the only one. The pressure and stigma from been sent home early made me decide to change countries! Anyway, thanks DKL for writing this and showing me that I’m not alone. Also Bookslinger’s comments, thanks. By, if I may, let me share my belief about the missionary program. It’s so friking stuffed up that they keep modifying it, from memorizing the discussion to not memorizing to lowering the maximum age to 27, then 24 and now 21, to ‘raising the bar’ stuff. All this points to a slowly developing crisis if one adds the criticisms, abuses and especially the suicides of ex-missionaries who find it impossible to adjust to home life. And for me, this crisis will end up forcing the Lord’s hand to ending this program as we know it and thereby fulfilling the prophesy of missionary work ending across the world just before the start of the millennium, when the Lord finally says ‘Its enough’ or enough suicides. |
I know this thread is long since dead, but it reminds me of Orwell’s “Shooting an Elephant.” The MP is Orwell, and DKL is the elephant. I know that unlike Orwell’s story there were not onlookers, but I’m sure the president imagined a bunch of missionaries gathered around in the dorm laughing and saying “You said WHAT to the president?” Sometimes insecure leaders do stupid and mean things because they are held hostage to their own authority. |
DKL, it’s a shame you didn’t have an opportunity to serve a mission. It was truly the best experience of my life. Since I’ve been back, I’ve been through very difficult situations and experiences but non more difficult than the things I went through on my mission. With that said, nothings been more rewarding than to be at the service of the Lord 24/7. Someone posted that he had to go through therapy because he couldn’t achieve what the mission President asked him to achieve. This may very well be true but it is a sad situation when one believes that not hitting certain mission goals makes him an unqualified person. I testify that I didn’t hit many goals in my mission. Sometimes I felt I wasn’t up to par with the lord’s work in general. However, I gave it my all physically and spiritually. And I know that the Lord knows that because of that my service was successful. Understand that to every story there are two sides. And please understand that because of this, there may be another side of this story that not even you are aware about. By the way that you write and portray yourself, I think even you feel you could have handled the situation in the MTC better. Though it looks like you went through the proper channels and procedures, one who was humble at the moment may have done things differently. Now, I’m not saying you should or shouldn’t have been kicked out of the MTC. No one person here can make that judgment. What I am saying is that there was a lifetime of wonderful experiences missed out on. Have confidence that the lord knows your intentions. Have confidence that he knows your heart. If you truly have this confidence, if you really do believe, there was no wrong on your part, than get over it. Because if you don’t, you may be missing out on wonderful experiences in serving the Lord now. |
I was searching the internet for info on my father Richard K. Klein and found this sickening discussion :(( This brings untold sadness to those of us who hold Richard K. Klein in the highest regard. Whatever the problems you had at the MTC with my father, I find it extremely sad that you felt the need to bring your story here and rake my dead father over the coals with complete strangers. Isn’t it ironic that finding supposed peace and justification for yourself(and your behavior) has undoubtedly brought extreme sadness to others? I would never say my father was without sin or errors but at least he didn’t publish missionary tales at the MTC all over the internet… |
I read your story, and I could not stop thinking how much I regret having gone on a mission. I still believe in Christ, but ever since I came back I never recover trust not only on any member of the Church, but in human beings. I am glad that you were able to continue being active. I cannot say the same. I only go because I recognize my kids need some spiritual guidance! Overall, I sat listening to members as if they all were a handful of hypocrites, including myself. I appreciate your sincere letter! |
Dear Daughter or Mr. Klein, I understand your position since is your father they are talking about, but you should also understand the position of the one who was hurt. What it goes around it comes around! I do not know whose fault it is, but I know everybody will pay for their own mistakes. Do not allow yourself to get mad at someone who is expressing feelings you do not agree. After all, wether it is true or false only God knows. You keep in your heart the good memories of your Dad! |
Lilly- I’m not sure what you mean by “what goes around it comes around”. I’ve had nothing to do with this situation yet it’s ok if I get hurt? If this story is true (after all, we are going off of one person’s account. My father can hardly defend himself now and tell his side of the story) I don’t understand why I shouldn’t be upset if someone else expresses feelings I don’t agree with. Isn’t that the topic of this post? Someone being upset about another actions? I do agree though, that God does know the truth and I find comfort knowing that my father was/is a fine, honorable man. I’m sorry you feel regret having gone on a mission. Instead of looking for the negative, why not focus on the positive parts of your mission and life while remembering that not one person is without error. I pray you will find the peace you are looking for. |
Klein’s daughter, note this statement from DKL “I don’t doubt that Klein was a loving parent, a good father, and rendered good service to the church. He wasn’t called to be a mission president or area authority because he was a monster.” I really feel for you, having lost so many of my loved ones. It would be hard to read this type of criticism. And my heart goes out…..but…. There’s so much wisdom in DKL’s original post (I’m talking about specific statements that don’t refer to your father) that a whole book could be written on the experiences of members who are marginalized by leaders. Reading Bookslinger’s “confession” that he bought into some of the rightness of ill treatment reminded me of the six months that I worked in a girls school. It was a kind of prison environment and really hard on me. But before I quit, I was pretty burned out and I know I was unfair to some of the girls. I’m sad that the MTC or the mission experience can be similar for young men. Or women. I’m certain that your father has many regrets, but that he’s repented and made his peace with God. Because I’ve studied near death experiences, I believe that he was met by the Savior and as he went through his life review, felt the pain and confusion he caused in other peoples lives. We all do, kid. That’s what the atonement is all about. DKL and others still hold a grudge against him, but for him, it’s over. Whited out. Jesus paid for any mistakes your father made. He’s not here to defend himself, true, but the consensus of personal experiences seems to be that he was not as Christ-like as a mission president as he should have been. I believe you do him a disservice by defending indefensible behavior and perpetuate DKL’s premise that our leaders are exempt from criticism. However, I invite you to share your positive memories. Make him human to those of us who have never met him. And one other question: have you personally ever experienced pain from a leader? |
Klein’s daughter, I went through an experience very similar to DKL’s. The main differences being that I didn’t get kicked out of the MTC, and the President was Charles “Tiny” Grant rather than your father. I had heard nothing but good things about President Grant, having grown up not far from where he coached high school football for decades. Yet in our one on interaction I was shocked to find that he had decided I was a troublemaker before our conversation had even started and he used his position to intimidate and bully me. Looking back I have some sympathy for MTC presidents. It is a thankless job in which you manage an ever changing herd of anonymous young people, never getting to know any of them. I can see how one could get into the mindset that any missionary talking to the president is a missionary that needs to be corrected rather than understood. I am sorry that your father is not around to express his side of this story, as I would be interested in hearing it. I am sure that he found Elder Landrith exasperating though it also seems likely that he didn’t even understand why Elder Landrith was in his office. But if you think that it is impossible that an MTC President brow-beat a 19 year old who hadn’t done anything wrong I can tell you from personal experience that you are wrong. |
Klein’s daughter, I’m describing my own experience with your father. This really is what I went through, and these are my feelings about it. To this day, more than 20 years later, there are still those who judge me for his actions. I told my mission story to one friend after I had known him for several years (we’d served together in numerous callings), and his response was, “Well, I think that the emphasis on ‘raising the bar’ has saved a lot of people like you from similar pain.” My own mother-in-law told me that it wasn’t until nearly all of her 4 younger sons had intensely negative experiences at the MTC that she understood where the real problem was. When I write on the topic of my mission, people send me emails describing similar negative experiences, both at the hands of Richard Klein and other MTC presidents. They also thank me for discussing it, because their experiences have left them feeling isolated and alone, and they’re relieved to know that someone else shared their experiences, that they’re not alone. Some commenters here have posted similar sentiments anonymously. Since Richard Klein was your father, I’m not surprised that you have a different opinion. As far as naming Richard Klein and publicly faulting him for his abuse of ecclesiastical authority, he’s the one who accepted fairly public callings (viz., MTC Mission President, Area Authority), and he enjoyed prestige and esteem by virtue of those callings. If he wasn’t willing to be held accountable for his actions in those positions, then he shouldn’t have accepted the callings. This esteem and prestige may well have benefited you, too — how many times have you mentioned to people that your father had been MTC President or an area authority? I’d never speculate about whether he repented. He certainly never apologized to me, but I wan’t easily available to be contacted, and he likely went on with his considerable work and never gave it another thought. Perhaps you know people to whom he did apologize. At any rate, I’ve long since forgiven him — on a thread in a different forum, I remarked that if he were still alive I’d buy him a steak dinner. I certainly do not hold you responsible for your father’s behavior or think ill of you for sticking up for him. However, I do find your attitude to be fairly combative and somewhat unfortunate, but such is the nature of responses that are enmeshed in a web of intense personal feelings. Since I have forgiven him, I discuss this as an example of a problem with the authority structure of the church; viz., it allows leaders to stigmatize members without affording members any ability to hold the leaders accountable. Thus, the church has a blame-the-victim mentality when it comes to abuse of ecclesiastical authority. This, in turn, prevents us from being a Zion community. Instead, it creates a community of outcasts isolated by their need to guard their true feelings and experiences. |
I wanted to chime in. I don’t think that DKL should have named Klien in this. He could have used just MTC MP or some other acronym. I also wanted to point out that some folks just have problems with authority. I had a comp whom was the best missionary in my mission he was often publicly and privately praised by our MP. This particular missionary was always fighting and disagreeing with the MP even though both the MP and his wife were gaga over him. He came home and proceeded to fight with multiple bishops, SP’s and he even got into it with Elder Scott multiple times in Elder Scotts office. Essentially my buddy whom I adore fought with anybody who had authority over him. He never fought with me but he would If I was the local bishop or SP. I have seen this pattern multiple times with some of the most brilliant folks I know. So yes DKL I am both calling you brilliant and royal pain in the A^%!!!! LOL Lots of times when we have conflict with folks we need to look no further then ourselves for a culprit. When are you going to start posting again anyways? |
For the record, bbell, I’ve never gotten into an argument with a bishop or stake president, though I’ve frequently worked closely with bishops; e.g., as ward secretary and YM president. In answer to your final question: soon. |
arJ: President Grant was one of my mission presidents. I didn’t know he was also an MTC president. In my mission, one of the constant pranks was for Elders who could do a good President Grant impression to call up other elders and call them to repentance as President Grant. This was before caller-ID and some elders were very good at this, thus, you never really knew for sure if that voice on the phone was really him or not. Good times. |
MCQ, I can totally see how that might become a running joke. In my brief experience it seemed that if President Grant met Jesus on the side of the road he chew the Lord out real good for some imagined sin. |
DKL, can you tweak the blog template (for comments) so as to put the YEAR in the comments’ date/time stamp? As it is now, day-of-week/month/day/time (without year) it’s confusing me, when comments are made 1+ and 2+ years after the original post. thanks. |
President Grant was a tough cookie and he didn’t put up with much that he considered out of bounds. Elders who were the straight-arrow, tow-the-line sort did fine with him, but any that were a little different sort of cat did not. He just didn’t bother trying to understand them. I remember one mother’s day we were all calling our moms (which we were allowed to do on that day) from our mission appt. taking turns on the phone (there were six elders sharing the appt. and the phone). It got pretty late by the time we all finished talking to our moms, so we were surprised when the phone rang after 10:00 pm. It was President Grant, steaming mad because he’s been trying to get through all night and had been getting a busy signal. I was the DL and he chewed me up one side and down the other for allowing the phone to be tied up for so long. I remember one phrase he used in particular: “We are not in business for that Elder!” I thought it was an odd thing to say, especially since we were not breaking any rules, just doing what we were allowed to do. He was a real trip. A very big guy with a big booming voice and not afraid of using all of that to intimidate or steamroll people. Despite that, he was also a prety big-hearted guy. I always got the impression that he loved the missionaries. He just didn’t have the patience or brain power for much nuance. |
“He’s not here to defend himself, true, but the consensus of personal experiences seems to be that he was not as Christ-like as a mission president as he should have been. I believe you do him a disservice by defending indefensible behavior and perpetuate DKL’s premise that our leaders are exempt from criticism.” There are many things I could say in response to all the above comments but instead choose to “turn the other cheek.” I agree my father’s actions aren’t above being criticized but I also don’t believe it’s right to take one person’s account as truth without knowing the other side of the story. My father isn’t here to tell his side of what transpired and that’s why I have issues with this thread. What I do know is that my father LOVED missionaries and LOVED the gospel. I can now see that I shouldn’t have commented and let sleeping dogs lie. Instead of others seeing and understanding the pain this has caused my family, I feel I am a fill-in target for my father. I do take comfort in knowing that as we judge others, so too shall we be judged. It’s always good to remember that we all make mistakes and not one person is a perfect church leader. Isn’t this the reason why we have the gospel? To remind us that we all need to improve, forgive others and try harder at being better and more Christ-like? Peace out. |
Klein’s daughter, I hope that you haven’t left for good. I wonder if you think it is possible for a mission president to jump to conclusions and mistreat a missionary, possibly even sending him or her home without just cause? I don’t think anyone is claiming that we should take any account as truth without the other side of the story. I would love to be able to hear your father’s perspective. But the fact that he isn’t here to respond doesn’t make DKL’s story invalid, nor does it make it inappropriate to share. Leaders make mistakes. Leaders that have to deal with an ever changing group of thousands of missionaries probably don’t have the time to have perfect interactions with everyone. I also think that the culture of the MTC is its own beast, not entirely under the control of the President. That said, DKL believes he was treated unjustly. It would be a further injustice to insist that he not have this discussion. Is this a perfect discussion? Nope. Can good be derived from it? Yes, if we use it to examine our own interactions with each other and make them more Christlike. For nearly everyone this has been a productive discussion. I hope it can be for you as well. You are not a fill-in target for your father. Frankly we don’t even know who you are or that you are who you claim to be. I would guess that the primary issue anyone might have with you is that you seem to be condemning this discussion, furthering the exact stigma that was being discussed. And if nothing else you should try to collect on that steak dinner DKL said he’d treat your father to. |
But then she would be a fill-in beneficiary for her father, and would have to put up with DKL’s dinner conversation and probably the karaoke that normally follows. Do you really think that’s going to make things better? |
I can attest that DKL is wonderful at meals. Even people that express animosity towards him on the blogs (I have been known to do so) would enjoy a meal with him immensely. |
Ok, now that’s just crazy talk. |
arj, thanks for the kind words. MCQ, don’t knock my post-dinner karaoke! |
Bookslinger, per your request, I’ve added the year to the comment header. |
Love that! |
The problem with this church is that we do not do confrontation well. No one likes to be told they are wrong, but, there are some situations. I had a home teacher who was the First Branch President and never gave up the authority he once held. I asked him to stop doing something that was annoying to me and his response,” You have emotional and spiritual problems that requires professional help. and I’m allowed to say this because I was a former Branch President.” The idiot sent this to me in an e-mail, Leadership both ignored and laughed at me when I brought this to there attention. I asked for and received my exit letter last May, I refuse to support and sustain leadership who behave this way and expect me or anyone else to blindly follow. I absolutely will not standby and witness anyone being abused by or in front of leadership anymore. |