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| Tuesday, May 21, 2013 |
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This seals it. I’m voting for Barack Obama. |
“What if George W. Bush is truly an instrument of God?” If by instrument you mean tool,” I’m totally with you. |
Bush is a very dull, old tool at that – sort of like the old rusty shovel with the broken handle that sits in the back of the tool shed… |
I still think Bush is a much better president than his predecessor. |
But if what I say is true, and God has a hand in all this and it’s the last days and Jesus is on His way as we speak, whoever is supposed to be president will be president and woo-hoo!–it’s almost over! Did you guys hear about Iran taking those British soldiers captive today? …”marrying and giving in marriage,” life will be much as usual and we won’t realize it until. . .Here He is, the Savior, up close and personal! And all the bad guys will be gone and I can go to Greece without fear of being hijacked. |
What if? We keep doing exactly what we’ve always been doing, of course. Whether it’s the actual end or not changes nothing. Because our world could end tomorrow–through our own death. :D |
For some reason this post reminds me a little bit of the way I respond to feelings of deja vu. I try to do something that will differentiate the actual experience from the feeling that I’m repeating something I’ve done before. In general, I don’t like the idea of strictly following a script. There has to be a little bit of improvisation. Of course if prophecy is truly a prophecy, then the foretold event/situation cannot be avoided. But I honestly don’t believe for a second that having Mitt Romney as a president would be fulfillment of prophecy. |
i’d really like to hear your reasons for that proclamation. i can hardly think of any way that we’re better off now than we were under clinton. the fiscal mismanagement is one of my biggest complaints (aside from that little iraq problem). people really want to paint clinton as a flaming liberal, but especially when it came to fiscal matters he was much more restrained than bush has been. i’ve heard more than one staunch conservative (of the fiscal rather than social bent) grudgingly admit that clinton was a much better president than bush has been. |
Mike D., I’m not particularly interested in getting in an argument on the whole thing – because it would just go on and on forever and I doubt anyone would be dissuaded of their initial position. I wrote that comment because I often see liberals express such strong contempt for Bush, with such self-assurance, that it seems they they assume they’re stating obvious facts and that everyone falls right in with them. In general, from my perspective, those who think that way are wrong about many things. Many liberals like to say that Bush is the worst president this country has ever had. So when I say that Clinton was a worse president than Bush, it puts some extra punch into the point I’m making. |
Yes, Liz, this is what I’m saying. You know, that is pure recovery talk. It’s what I tell myself when things fall apart. “Do the dishes, Anne.” Hey, you guys, I just saw that congress okayed taking the troops out by 2008. |
#3 |
The gospel had other ways of getting into Iraq without war. There were Iraqis who were members of the church before the US ever invaded Iraq. I am not at all sold on the idea that war is a good way to get the gospel to people, despite many claims I’ve heard to the contrary. And if it’s almost over according to prophecy, then we’ve got a whole lot of prophecies to be fulfilled in a very short period of time. |
If this was indeed the last days then HALLELUIAH! However, what that means about Bush is that he is an evil man because he started a war, and as we know from prophecy, those that war in the last days are the wicked men of the world. So yeah, I’m with ya, annegb, these are the last days alright. GWB is an evil man. ;) |
danithew,
No, it just shows you have no idea what you are talking about. ;) |
anne,
yeah, how dare they prolong the days! Curse you democrats for wanting peace!!! |
But Dan, it’s so cool to be evil. Really, you should try it sometime. Come over to the dark side. :twisted: |
danithew, i don’t really want a debate either. i am sincere when i want to know someone’s rationale for thinking bush has been a good president, or even just better than clinton (which by definition doesn’t mean he was a good president, just better than clinton). i’m not an ideologue (the whole conservative vs. liberal thing to me is not really that useful), but rather more of a pragmatist when it comes to politics, and looking at it from that perspective i don’t really see what bush has done that has helped move the country forward. i’d really like to hear your reasoning, if you don’t want to post it here and further derail this post you could just email me.
oh yeah, i’ve seen it cut both ways on more occasions than i can count. |
Amira,
Well said. This is the thing that many who claim to understand prophecy do not understand. They welcome the violence that supposedly happens before the end, even though that violence is awfully bloody and destructive, because hey, THEY will at least be saved, who cares about the poor saps in Iraq who die so that their salvation comes to fruition. I remember reading the glee in comments from Rapturists last summer when Israel was bombing Lebanon. They totally thought the end was upon them, and that they would finally be saved. Glee at bombs that destroy other humans, this is NOT Christianity! |
danithew,
Aren’t I already? I mean I’m a democrat and all. And we all know no Democrat will be Raptured up to heaven. |
Dan, don’t worry, you won’t be alone. On the great and terrible day, you and I together will be as cinders and stubble under the feet of the victorious evangelical Republicans. |
well then the company will be good, Mr. Bartholomew. :) |
i want to know how you make the devil emoticon? |
mfranti, I’m not sure you’re evil enough to learn this great blogging secret. (scroll down a little to see the table with images and corresponding codes) :mrgreen: |
danithew, I do believe my life has been enriched. can you tell it’s friday? the quality of our comments is _____! |
Ha! Tool! |
I do happen to think the wars are signs of prophecy. I think Annes question is valid whether you agree with it or not. Peace is not the opposite of war, and visa/versa. For many years I prayed for peace in the world and one day it came to me that peace could delay the prophocies needed for the second coming, what I should be praying for are the events that need to occur should occur. I may not like them, they may not be pretty, but they need to happen. I think the only way the church will make its way into those countries are to break down the hold of the extreme Islam in the world, the ones that will kill anyone that leaves their faith, the ones that want to oppress and harm others. I think there are things to happen that we can not possibly understand. To call someone evil because they are doing what they think is right is wrong. You may disagree with it, but to judge someones heart when you are not sitting in their chair, with the information they have. |
“Peace is not the opposite of war, and visa/versa. ” and 2+2+5 |
Tigersue,
So, in other words, you should pray for the destruction of people? You should be praying that the anti-Christ shows up? You should be praying that our freedoms are lost and we all need some kind of mark on our foreheads? These are what you say we should be praying for? Where, pray, (no pun intended) do you get this thinking from?
There is no right when you start wars. There is no right when you torture people. There is no right when you take away people’s freedoms. The moment you start doing these things, you are no longer right, or good. You become the very thing you are supposedly fighting against. Sorry, but that’s how it is. Osama Bin Laden thinks he is doing right, does that make him right? |
i think that supposed to be 2+2=5. oops! in such a hurry I forgot to double check the math. “There is no right when you start wars. There is no right when you torture people. There is no right when you take away people’s freedoms. The moment you start doing these things, you are no longer right, or good.” hey, this is sounding familiar. |
Tigersue, I know a lot of people who feel the way you do. And it’s somewhat logical, in its way. But I have some serious problems with it. For example, how far do you go? Do you just pray for these events to happen, or should you actively work to make them happen? Or do you pray for them to happen to people in far away places, but not to people you know and love? If you’re going to do what you can to encourage the 2nd Coming, your logic means that you’re also going to be encouraging bad things to happen to people you love. That doesn’t make sense to me. And can’t these prophecies be fulfilled despite our prayers and best efforts? Should I allow the love of man to wax cold in my own family because it’s prophecied? Should I tell my Palestinian friends that their troubles don’t matter because the Jews were prohpesied to return to their land? Should I just hole up and let the world fall apart because it’s prophesied and if I stay personally righteous, everything will be okay for me? I’m really not trying to attack you here, but I just don’t agree. I’ll pray for the good prophecies to happen (the gospel going to all the world, etc) and pray for peace too. And I’ll do the little I can to make the world better and to keep those prophecies from being fulfilled. |
To call someone evil because they are doing what they think is right is wrong. Even the “bad guys” (like Osama bin Laden, for example) believe that they’re doing the right thing, and that God (or Allah) is on their side. They have reasons that they believe absolutely justify their actions. “Bad guys” who proclaim themselves as such (“I am the Mistress of all Evil!” — Malificent, from Disney’s “Sleeping Beauty”) only exist in stories and movies. In other words, guys like Osama and Dubya are cut from the same cloth. |
Osama bin Laden knows on some level that he’s doing evil. He’s gotten himself into a state of mind/heart where he just doesn’t care. He is the embodiment of sanctimony, if one can word it that way. |
Just to flip it around… George W. Bush knows on some level that he’s doing evil. He’s gotten himself into a state of mind/heart where he just doesn’t care. He is the embodiment of sanctimony, if one can word it that way. Makes sense that way as well. |
WendyP, Two questions. 1) Do you really feel George Bush is evil? 2) Do you really feel that George Bush and Osama bin Laden are equivalently evil? My answer to question 1 is “No.” My answer to question 2 is “Certainly not! That’s ridiculous.” |
George and Osama both have a lot of killing on their hands. That is what I am saying. Personally, I don’t believe anyone is “evil”. I just think people do good and bad things. I found it interesting that when I substituted in Bush’s name in your sentence, it rang true to me as well as it did when you wrote it about Osama. I’m not saying because it rang true, that they are “equivalently evil”. |
1) Do you really feel George Bush is evil? Well, if we’re to blame incorrect beliefs for causing people to do bad things, maybe it’s charitable to say that, at best, he’s misguided. 2) Do you really feel that George Bush and Osama bin Laden are equivalently evil? How many have died, Americans and non-Americans both, as a result of decisions made by George W. Bush to send our troops to Iraq? How many died, Americans and non-Americans both, as a result of decisions made by Osama bin Laden to send hijackers to crash planes into buildings in New York and Washington, D.C.? Who holds the bigger stick? Who has, at the very least, the greater potential for evil? Who has more people at his command who will openly and visibly engage themselves in “the work of death” (as the Book of Mormon puts it)? |
Tigersue, I agree with you. It’s so easy to sit back in our recliner and second guess decisions from the comfort of our living rooms. Dan, you’re deliberately misconstruing what she’s saying and you know it–you’re smarter than that. It’s an unfair and ineffective debating technique when one attacks and puts the other on the defensive. Then there is no understanding or dialogue. Dang it, Dan, I wish you would quit that. I know you care, I know you’re voicing your intense concern for the people of the world. I applaud that, but when you attack fellow bloggers, where is the love? Amira, what you said is wise, also, but I don’t think Tigersue was advocating praying for people to die. There is a difference when I faithfully pray for God’s will to be fulfilled over when I pray for God to “get ‘em.” The prophecy I was thinking about was the war in the Holy Land which would precede the Savior’s coming. I think events could happen very quickly. The Olympics in China, for example, will provide a ripe field for harvest if we want to spread the gospel by attraction. I wasn’t rejoicing in death and destruction, but I sure will be glad when Jesus comes again and it’s over. Also, the death of my fellow men, while heart rending, isn’t the end of their existence. We are talking about eternity here. We are all God’s children and if it’s His will, the death isn’t a terrible for the dead person. For their loved ones, certainly, but death is a part of existence that I think was in real big print when we signed on the dotted line. It’s simply unavoidable. However, I do pray agonizing prayers to God asking Him, “why aren’t you in Darfur?” “bless the poor innocent people of the world.” And a lot of the time: “what are you thinking?” Mark, good point. (re Bin Laden being convinced he’s right) Danithew, I can’t believe I did not know you were a liberal. Your answers in #34 reflect my opinions. And when liberals paint GWB as the devil himself, they lose me. It’s hyperbole-ic. But again, what if? IF this is all going down in the next few years, we should do as Tigersue recommends and pray for God’s will to be done. Then I can go on a world cruise without worry and perhaps learn to fly without an airplane. The second coming is going to be pretty cool, you guys. |
anne, When you pray for events to unfold that are by prophecy destructive to millions of people, I’m sorry, but you are praying for the wrong things. What Tigersue and you should pray for is that the Savior would come quicker to STOP the fighting, not for the fighting to happen for the Savior to appear. Note the difference. On the one hand, what Tigersue said, and I’ll use her own words: For many years I prayed for peace in the world and one day it came to me that peace could delay the prophocies needed for the second coming, what I should be praying for are the events that need to occur should occur. She said specifically that “one day it came to me that peace could delay the prophecies needed for the second coming.” She specifically chose to pray NOT for peace (which is what would come when the Savior shows up, but specifically for all those violent things that would HASTEN his coming. On the other hand, I pray that the Savior would come quickly to STOP the violence before it gets even worse, because it is painfully clear that we cannot stop fighting ourselves. |
If George is anything, he’s the anti-Christ. |
Regardless of how close it is to the 2nd coming, the Lord has always had his hand in the affairs of men, while still allowing us our agency, even from the beginning. Additionally, the Lord has been operating quite openly since 1830. So it’s been “the last days” for 177 years. So regardless of whether the 2nd coming is within a few years, or 25 years, or more, we need to do the right things. And the right things are those which are laid out in scriptures, and things which are taught by the living prophets/seers/revelators today. We’ve been told to have a 1 year food supply for a long long time. Are we doing it? Are we getting out of debt and staying out? Are we praying and reading scriptures daily? Are we having family home evening? Are we doing genealogy and temple work for our ancestors? Are we doing our home-teaching and visiting-teaching? We’ve been told to do those things for at least a few generations now. The Lord has been giving us PLENTY of warning. The fact that the Lord gave us that warning for generations prior to the 2nd coming, does not excuse our delay. I’ve been working on my 1 year food supply. And I need to be more diligent about FHE. And I need to do a LOT of things to get fully back in line with the Lord’s program. Those things which we are constantly encouraged by the prophets/apostles to do, those are the things we need to do to prepare for the 2nd coming. |
Bookslinger, that is some well-written and much needed exhortation. You are the man. Thanks for writing that up. |
Who said I was praying for the fighting to escalate so the Savior would appear? I was praying for the poor and downtrodden of the world who are the true sufferers in war. I was SPECULATING that perhaps world events are a fulfillment of prophecy. Speculation does not equal longing. Gee whiz. I want to recommend this wonderful post by Kaimi which I think we can all use as a standard when we are blogging: Bookslinger, I second Daniel. Truly we do need to prepare in so many ways. I was just thinking what if it’s over? My ordeal, to sound self centered. |
I think it’s possible, annegb. Since the 60s, God has always done all His best work through Republicans. |
