Sounds okay to me.

One of the most important aspects of this clarification is that gay BYU students, working with the administration, were actively involved in making the changes.

wow, what’s going on at BYU. First they allow protests of Cheney’s visit, and now this…

One’s sexual orientation is not an Honor Code issue.

That’s an important line. I think it might lead to more openness at BYU. It seems to me that it should now be possible for a person who has homosexual or lesbian orientation to say so in a group setting. I think this helps to take the person out of any self-imposed isolation and perhaps brings the person some support he/she may need.

We recently (a few months ago) had a testimony meeting where a man who has moved into our ward shared his conversion story and the spiritual journey he’s taken since his baptism. He openly stated that he has struggled with same-sex attraction. At the same time he bore fervent testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel and I found the whole thing to be very spiritual and uplifting.

It’s a difficult balance (I imagine). But it will be easier if people can be a little more open about this sort of thing.

I’d be very interested in hearing more about the process by which this change was made to the BYU Honor Code and how much input students really have. I’m under the impression that while the HC was started purely by students the administration now has final say and student control of it is on an invitation only basis.

Well this should be interesting. It’s good to see a clarification of position that, while still standing up for what the church believes about sexuality, makes room to make people feel more at ease.

Nick, I think your first point won’t be an issue. “Advocating” is a verb. It implies willful, concerted action. At least as far as I’m concerned, attending an event is not the same as advocating for that event.

I think your second point is a good one though. I don’t know what to say about it, except I hope people don’t stop comforting each other because of what it “might” look like. I don’t think there’s much chance of that though; my husband is finishing teacher’s college and the list of things they’ve been told they can’t do is really disheartening.

#5 (Dan) — wow, what’s going on at BYU. First they allow protests of Cheney’s visit, and now this…

They’re obviously trying to lure you back to BYU.

Mark, #13,

They’re obviously trying to lure you back to BYU.

Eh, they’ve got lots more to do before they can lure me back. For one, get rid of that stupid beard rule. I ain’t no hippie!

I think that this is great. I doubt that it will result in more openly gay students applying to BYU, but I’m sure it will do a lot to improve the condition of those who learn to come to terms with their gayness while their at BYU. It’s also good to know that BYU is open to the kind of discussion that Margaret describes.

Oh dear–someone took me seriously. M&M I do not do conspiracy theories. My comment about Cheney was ENTIRELY tongue-in-cheek.

I remember all the furor over birth control–which was still going on when I got married in 1979. Could Mormons engage in sex for any other reason than making babies? Was it okay to use birth control? The apparent answer in 1979 was NO. So I asked my stake president about it. I said simply, “What about birth control? He then got out a book and went down the methods. “This one works pretty well. This one is not so good. Do you know what they call people who use spermicadal foam for birth control? PARENTS!”

Now to the actual issue: The sentence which the students were most troubled by in the original text was this one: “Advocacy of a homosexual lifestyle (whether implied or explicit) or any behaviors that indicate homosexual conduct, including those not sexual in nature, are inappropriate and violate the Honor Code.”

What on earth did “implied” mean and how far did it extend?
The new statement will almost certainly need revision, because
it leaves wide areas open to interpretation (and accusation), but it’s a heckuva lot better than what was there last week.

As a current, homosexual BYU student, a committed Latter-day Saint, and one of those who are participating in these meetings, I thought I’d throw in a few comments.

First, in response to “a random John” (comment 9) and others who asked about the process, a handful of BYU students who were concerned about the image of gay people that the Soulforce visit might encourage asked to meet with administration about what could be done to encourage understanding within a more “faithful” context. In that first meeting (which I didn’t attend), the Honor Code application statement was brought up by the students as a concern. After explaining their concerns, the administrator said she understood why it might be unclear and committed to work on it. At the most recent meeting (which I did attend), she came with the revised text and asked for student input. The students there unanimously affirmed and supported what she had written—at the very least as being far better than what was there before—and the text was online next day.

So, no, the students didn’t come up with any of the text, but it was presented to the students for feedback and none had anything but good to say, so it was considered done.

Second: In response to Nick Literski’s comment… since I’m choosing to remain committed to the Church, I obviously don’t feel homosexual relationships are morally acceptable. I do, however, have friends who I love deeply who are choosing homosexual relationships for their path. I don’t have a problem with honoring their agency and supporting them should they choose to have a commitment ceremony of some sort, and I feel I can do that while simultaneously not “promoting homosexual relations as being morally acceptable.” If I were to pull a Jeffrey Nielson and publish SL Trib editorials calling the Church’s position immortal, I might understand why I was dismissed from the University.

With your second concern, I really don’t see it hugs as being a problem. If some hyper-Pharisee student/staff saw an objectionable hug and wanted to take a case to court, I really don’t believe it would go far. To me, I think the principle is pretty clear here, and that’s why I supported it as is. And I know from discussion that what they’re referring to are those who think they can have a boyfriend (if it’s a guy we’re talking about) and hold hands and kiss on campus (or anywhere for that matter) and think they’re not breaking the Honor Code simply because they’re not having sex. Same-sex romantic relationships—given Church teaching regarding the centrality of opposite-sex relationships in the plan of salvation—simply don’t work either, and are in violation of both Church and university ideals.

Thank you, Tito! You all have accomplished something wonderful! Thanks for sharing this!

Oh dear–someone took me seriously. M&M I do not do conspiracy theories. My comment about Cheney was ENTIRELY tongue-in-cheek.

Oh, dear, indeed. Sorry, Margaret. Sometimes I really hate this medium. Thanks for clarifying.
(Hey, but at least my gut feeling about you not being the conspiracy theory type was on. )

Does this mean my 20-year-old daughter, who regularly says “I love you” to her female roommates and close friends on campus, and greets them with more-than-half-a-second hugs, and in other ways is physically affectionate with them, is now considered in violation of the BYU honor code? This “all forms of physical intimacy” thing leads me to think that the Utah Mormon culture is so excessively repressive about the body and touching others. I guess for men you can engage in brief hand-shaking and closed-fist touching of the shoulder only? Anything else could, heaven forbid, lead one to feel affection for one’s peers. How sad that this fear of touching has become a gospel principle. Oh well, the new honor code text is a small step forward, however awkward.

Margaret,
Maybe the ensuing 8 years have changed BYU, but homophobia was not “thriving” while I was there. It existed, I am sure, perhaps in larger quantities than some other schools (although I have no way of gauging that–I’d be pretty sure that BYU had a higher percentage of homophobic students than Columbia, but those are my only educational referents). I think a charge of homophobia thriving is painting a bit broadly, unless you’re privy to information I’m not aware of (and letters to the editor of the Daily Universe regarding Soulforce don’t mean anything; I stand by my assertion that the letters are largely written by freshman who need to do it for their English class and kids who want to stir the water and get as many responses as possible).

In fact, I think the very fact that BYU changed the honor code w/r/t gays shows that homophobia is _not_ thriving at BYU. (Of course, again, you’re there and I’m not, so you may have a better lay of the land than I do.)

Nick, I think your worry is misplaced. My dad isn’t a gay ex-Mormon and he’s never been bishop or stake president. I never heard people having discussions about “my dad the bishop” while at BYU. Often one would know that people who had a father serving as a stake president or as a GA and they would be very quiet about that fact. The majority of leadership-offspring that I have ever met are very humble about the leadership positions their dads have been asked to fulfill. Certainly, there will be the exception to that standard — someone who is prideful about their dad’s “position”, but it is a stupid attitude to have and those people make themselves pretty unpopular pretty quickly except among others who think their dad’s calling is any reflection on themselves.

If anything, having a gay ex-Mormon dad will make her trendy and cool among the students who fancy themselves liberal free-thinkers unencumbered by conformity to the Church’s templates. To the orthodox students, she will certainly not be viewed on the basis of the actions of her father.

Sorry I was so unclear, John F. My observations were from LAST year, not this year, and the patronizing questions (very few) were from BYU students. There was some argument, but usually the BYU students got angry at any other BYU student who was saying homophobic things. Once or twice, it was quite heated. However, Soulforce members had planned all along to get themselves arrested at BYU, and they succeeded. For gay BYU students, this was NOT helpful to their cause. Note that this year’s appearance of Soulforce was one of the factors in uniting BYU’s gay population–not to join Soulforce, but to increase sensitivity to their particular struggles in another way than through public arrests.

Margaret,
I don’t know if straight students would have endeavored to change the Honor Code the way that it was changed. I have to (proudly/sheepishly) admit that I never once read the Honor Code while I was at BYU. I read that one- or two-page sheet that they had you sign, but I’ve since heard that that’s the abbreviated version. I was unaware that the Honor Code addressed homosexual behavior specifically (and maybe it didn’t then). So no, I wouldn’t have worked to change it while at BYU, because I wouldn’t have known that it was there. (In fact, until the advent of the Bloggernacle, I, and most people I knew, treated the Honor Code as a dumb as it related to dress and grooming and curfews, and nice as it related to academic honesty).

I’ll admit that the one class I had in the Zoology department (Bioethics) exposed me to a group who were fairly homophobic. Which frankly came as a surprise, because it contrasted so heavily with what I heard and saw in the English department. Although, I will grant you, being straight, I wouldn’t have been the brunt of such prejudice, so it could have existed off my radar, even among English majors.

Oh, and Nck, I don’t see any reason why your daughter would be ostracized at BYU, any more than a New Yorker would be. It’s something slightly different about her and, although I disagree with john f’s assessment of liberal BYU students, nonetheless, I think he’s right in substance that it will be a cool background detail to a large portion of the people she meets (at a relatively homogenious place like BYU, I was always looking for something different about myself), and won’t be a black mark against her, even with the homophobes Margaret has mentioned.

I would say Soulforce was FOUNDATIONALLY patronizing to BYU students because they had identified BYU as a place which oppressed gays.

Isn’t calling BYU homophobic sort of the same thing?

I don’t know that I ever remember contests about whose dad was the coolest or whatever. Nick, I am sure there is a lot of vulnerability for you right now, but I would hope that your daughter can be respected and find friends based on who she is, and that she will honor you in the process.

Wow, Nick, I really don’t know. But I truly do hope your fear isn’t realized. While I’ve never heard a conversation similar to the one you mentioned (in the context of homosexuality, I mean), I did have a good friend and roommate who was open about his dad—the eccentric Columbia professor who left the Church and who is openly critical of it—but the conversations it invoked never turned into “dad bashing.” It usually was the catalyst for discussion of how to best respond to diversity/challenge/whatever in our lives, and what that might mean for our own futures. And no one avoided him as a result of his family experience; to the contrary, he was really well liked and served as our elders’ quorum president.

I do think there are plenty of dumb, close-minded people at BYU (just like anyway), but I also think that some of the most mature, open-minded, and truly compassionate people in the world are at BYU. Being fairly open about my own feelings of attraction, I’ve only had one really negative experience. A small few have been a little wierded by it, but the vast majority have been amazingly supportive and understanding.

And that’s what the efforts of the group I’ve been meeting with are hoping to achieve. Even in our meeting this morning, I felt the administrators were very open to anything that might help build a better culture of understanding and compassion on campus when it comes to homosexuality. No one in that group is—to my knowledge—hoping for any kind of a change in doctrine or Church policy. But every one of them hopes for an atmosphere where people can be more open about so that the image changes from the “Buddhist vegan with ten earrings/bodyrings” to the “guy next door”—or the girl-next-door’s father (or mother)… you get the idea…

SilverRain,
What you are saying is absolutely correct, so far as individuals governing their own behavior. Observers, however, are generally not mind-readers.

Suppose, for example, that Tito (who is open about being gay) happens to give a purely non-sexual hug to a brother in his ward. Sister Suzie sees that, and thinks to herself, “Oh my gosh! Tito just hugged that guy! It must be an expression of homosexual feelings!” Next thing you know, Sister Suzie reports what she thinks she saw to the Honor Code office, and Tito gets brought in for questioning.

At least back when I was attending BYU, I knew of students reporting one another to the Honor Code office. They felt it was their “duty” to do so.

Chris,

It’s possible that’s true. It’s just not my feeling when I read either of their work. And I’ve read a lot from both. And I’ve heard both speak. Given that a lot of the (open/public) conversation on this topic has taken place with Sunstone and Dialogue as medium, my experience is that those conversations have an entirely different nature and tone than any I have had among those outside that community. And I’m not talking Evergreen-esque. And CLP’s and Reese’s rhetoric seems to me to have been shaped by—or perhaps it was them who have done the shaping?—that community, and it simply doesn’t represent the views of the vast majority of those who I know who are homosexual (and who are committed to the Church).

Know that I’m not trying to be entirely critical of either of them. I just wouldn’t point to either of them anyone who wanted to understand the issue in a “faithful” context—that was also compassionate and understanding.

Nick,

“Suppose, for example, that Tito (who is open about being gay) happens to give a purely non-sexual hug to a brother in his ward. Sister Suzie sees that, and thinks to herself, “Oh my gosh! Tito just hugged that guy! It must be an expression of homosexual feelings!” Next thing you know, Sister Suzie reports what she thinks she saw to the Honor Code office, and Tito gets brought in for questioning.”

Are you sure that you aren’t projecting your own historical anxiety onto your daughter’s situation? She sounds like she has found her own way of dealing with the situation and is choosing to go to BYU. Sounds like your concern for your daughter’s feelings are a day late and a dollar short.

At least back when I was attending BYU, I knew of students reporting one another to the Honor Code office. They felt it was their “duty” to do so.

But a student has a chance to respond. An accusation does not reality make.

Nick,
I have several friends whose fathers are homosexual. One of my friends is very open about it. I think he’s had a variety of reactions from a variety of people, but for the most part he’s found acceptance and support. It’s not as uncommon as it used to be for BYU students to have homosexual family members. In my experience, it’s actually quite common. And while, yes, your daughter will likely find people pitying her, the reactions of peers will likely be more influenced by how she tells the story. When a friend of mine tells me his father left his family when he was a teenager because he wanted to pursue a homosexual lifestyle (sorry if that’s not a particularly pc way of stating it–I’m putting it in the terms my friend puts it in), I feel pain for him because I know he’s still struggling with the feelings of rejection brought on by that experience. When another friend of mine talks in loving terms about her homosexual uncle, I listen appreciatively.

I know of some people at BYU who are weirded out by anyone talking about homosexuality, and I’ve encountered some instances of homophobia. I also have friends who actively support same-sex marriage. Most of my friends are somewhere in the middle. My point is that there are all kinds of people here, and your daughter will be drawn toward (and will draw people toward her) who will be accepting of her.

It always boggles my mind and I feel terrible when I hear about people having a negative experience at BYU, because I don’t think it’s necessary. I really have met all kinds here–feminists, vegans, Bollywood fans, yoga enthusiasts, people who make bracelets out of duct tape, etc. Maybe I’m hopelessly idealistic and naive (or Molly), but I echo Tito in saying that in my experience there is a high percentage of people at BYU who are genuinely good and tolerant–who don’t just pay lip service to tolerance, but who actually live it. Much more than in my ultra-politically correct high school back home in California. (Uh-oh, I think I’m on a rant now. Better end.)

DKL: LOL. Branbury lost it’s BYU approved status a couple years ago because of questionable activities (like pot-growing) going on there that the management weren’t keeping in check. Since it gained back its approval status, though, it’s kind of gone back to what it was before.

Matt,
If I read you correctly, you misunderstood me in part. I was not suggesting that I was worried that my daughter might hug a fellow student and be accused of violating the honor code. My concerns for my daughter involve how she might be received by fellow students who learn that she has a father who happens to be gay.

The “hypothetical hug” comment was in response to SilverRain, who pointed to the language in the honor code about “expression of homosexual feelings.” I was attempting to point out that none of us can be sure what another person feels. An observer could interpret such a situation as either an “expression of homosexual feelings,” or as an innocent gesture of concern and/or affection. If the interpretation leads, by way of reporting, to an honor code violation investigation, the accused really has no way to prove to administration how he or she was feeling. Does the Honor Code Office operate on the principles of “innocent until proven guilty” and “proof beyond a reasonable doubt?” I don’t know.

Again, if I understand you correctly, you suspect that I am somehow insincere in the concerns I expressed, and that I have falsely claimed those concerns in order to play rhetorical games. Well, there is an example of just what I was saying. You have observed my comments, and reached a particular conclusion about my *feelings.* I can (and do) state that your conclusion is wrong, but I certainly have no way to prove to you what my feelings were.

If I have erred, Matt, it was in raising an issue that was admittedly tangential to this thread. Several people have made very useful comments, which I appreciate greatly (especially rinley, who reported his own experience directly on point). I certainly didn’t expect to be harshly accused by someone who apparently thinks my coming out of the closet demonstrated a lack of love and concern for my daughter.

No apology needed. I was reading more into some of your comments based on other people comments than was there. Threaded comments would be nice sometimes.

Wow, I feel like I’m jumping into a discussion that’s already mvery much going, but Margaret invited me because she said the news was here. I (like Tito) am one of the students who has been involved with this process. Unlike him I was at both meetings (not that that makes us so different); I have been so impressed with Jan so far and the changes that have been made. I am likewise excited for the further changes that are going to come as we continue to meet with top administrator’s over specific departments like the Dean of Students (over Honor Code Office) and The Counseling Center. This did all spring out of us not feeling represented by Soulforce and a desire to begin a dialogue before now had not been occuring. Lest we seek to vilify the administration, Jan pointed out in our first meeting they did not exactly know how to go about getting that dialogue with us. Imagine an administrator walking around Brigham Square with a bulllhorn announcing they want to talk with gays!? Um no. So we have now initiated the dialogue with her and other administrators (as Tito mentioned) and it’s going really well. We are excited to have a voice and help people further understand who we are, where we’ve come from, and where it is we are trying to get.

To just address a random comment or two I read, I am one of the people Margaret referred to who has experienced some of the homophobia which exists on campus, although I would agree that it’s not necessarily “thriving.” But then again we all tend to read too far into words and issues sometimes anyway, no? Also I’ve met Carol Lynn and know Bob and I agree they are great people. They have helpful insights even if I don’t agree with every single thing they do/advocate. I REALLY REALLY loved Margaret’s last comment about our faith being our own, and that there are numerous visions for our Church. I’d just like to say that’s pretty much how I understand these issues as well. I have gay friends all over the spectrum of in the church, out, not sure, dating, not, etc. Lots of them offer advice and help me and that’s great, and works to an extent, but it only goes so far. I believe that struggling is as individual as being human and that, inherently, the path I carve to walk with my Savior in order to get back to my Heavenly Father will be my own and no one elses. They say joy in the journey; I’d amend and state: Joy in the UNIQUE journey. Sure, there are moments where we coincide and overlaps, but there are always different. I think that’s why what we’re doing is harder than some people realize. We are trying to cater to a very diversified audience with different needs, wants, and even goals and that’s harder than I can put to words.

But nonetheless we are trying and the changes are starting and we are excited for more. If anyone has specific questions feel free to email me at: theDOThiddenDOTgayATgmailDOTcom and I’d be more than happy to attend you. I’m not too keen on getting involved with the discussion going on here, only because I’m swamped with finals right now and don’t have much time. Plus Tito’s already got this place pretty well covered.

I guess this means no more french kissing between the members of the football team.

Nick, in my experience, kids really don’t give a damn if you’re “living a lie or not.” At least, not when they’re young. At that age all they care about is whether their needs are being met. Your own needs be hanged.

Gradually, they grow up and start to take something resembling a passing interest in your needs and wants. But even in young adulthood, it’s kind of questionable.

The “living a lie” thing is often used by divorcing couples to justify the breakup, but really, the harsh reality is that junior would prefer you and mom to stay together in misery.

Just an aside, that kinda tangential to the main discussion.

D. Fletcher,

LOL! I’m guessing that the football team will continue to get away with things as long as the police are not involved. As we all know the Provo Police Department is an agent of the devil, or at least of the yewts, and exists solely to persecute the righteous.

Have I every gone on and on about how I stood in line for 45 minutes once to get lunch at that Canon Center? When I got to the head of the line Peter Tuipulotu (sp?) cut in front of me. He was allowed to do so because he was a football player. Then the lady at the door stopped me and asked me to lift up my shirt. She thought I was lowriding my shorts in order to get in. I refused because I felt that my honor was being questioned, and I had no desire to show this woman my rock hard abs. I was not lowriding. She informed me that I would have to change my shorts in order to get in because she suspected that I was lowriding. I then pointed out very loudly that not only had Peter just cut me off in line after waiting 45 minutes, but that he was wearing a t-shirt, a towel, and flip flops. No shorts or pants at all. He looked back at me and grinned and I was promptly kicked out of the building for my crimes.

Nick,

Is this t