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**applauds** |
No DKL, You still can’t have any coffee. |
“no illiberal God is worthy of my worship.” No offense, but with this statement you give me the impression that you are “seeking to counsel the Lord” (Jacob 4:10) and “walking after the image of [your] own God” (D&C 1:16). Yes, it is good to do what you feel inwardly do be what is right, and this creates a dilemma when your conscience conflicts with religious orthodoxy, but arrogance is not the answer. We all approach the world from a limited perspective and we should always be ready to alter our moral judgments as we grow and learn. I think that many times, there are good reasons why the religious orthodoxy does things the way it does, and to throw it all out without seeking to find that reason is just as wrong as going against your inward sense of right and wrong in order to follow the letter of the law. Ideally, I believe that we should act out of the inner conviction given by personal revelation from the spirit, while remaining ever teachable in our relationship with outward authority. |
are you sure our church isn’t an oligarchy? I’m not questioning the rightness or wrongness of it, but it sure seems to be run here on earth by a few men at the top. |
Go ahead, DKL. Have a cup of coffee! Just make sure it’s decaf! :-) |
*dumbstruck* |
Dave. I go back and forth on this. On one hand I’m attracted to the confident humility of Calvin and other Reformation leaders who frankly said, “Look, God’s not here to make you feel good about yourself or help you become a better person. God commands, and we obey, because God is God, not because we want God to bless us or love us or because we want to be self-actualized. If you don’t like it, tough.” This is a useful antidote to the sort of therapeutic religion that has infiltrated American Christianity in the past hundred years or so. On the other hand, I’m not John Calvin, and I recoil whenever anybody defines obedience as the first principle of the gospel, because it seems people are _eager_ to obey; we want to be told what to do, and increasingly define righteousness in terms of following orders rather than internalizing the principles which guide them. A key tenet of democratic liberalism, it seems to me, is that ideas should rise and fall on their own merits, not on appeals to authority. Translated into Mormonism, this means to me that if we want to follow a commandment, we should be able to justify it by its principles. |
I heart DKL. Aaron B |
Isn’t the problem one of reference points, though? If we believe that our leaders recieve revelation for the whole church, are we not in some sense saying that they have access to the correct reference point, the standard by which the act or belief is right, which we may not be able to recognize as clearly? If this is the case, then authority has a rational basis, one intelligble to liberalism, even when it calls for us to do things that we may not understand or may go against our grain. |
A quibble I guess. When you assumed obedience to the pattern you saw, you were actually being obedient to your [incorrect] logic over what you knew was right, and not to some outside source. Your reasoning detected the pattern and it was your appeal to this reasoning instead of to the actual rules that lead you of the beaten path. So this story actually illustrates that you were disobedient and that is what got you in trouble… In that sense, the story is rather ironic, and even more interesting… |
Matt W, the idea is that the pattern originated outside of me, much like peer pressure would for someone who was being pressured to smoke. The fact that we view the perception of the pattern as originating within me does not differentiate it from any other perception — it simply shows that we are children of Descartes. So, yes, there is a basic conflict between an internal sense of right-and-wrong, and a pressure to conform to a pattern that is altogether independent of that. TMD, that begs the question. Please refer to the portion of the post wherein I show that investing moral authority in any outside source entails an anterior and independent judgment by the individual that the investment is a good one. The question is which circumstances warrant such an uncritical judgment. I’m submitting that the answer is never. Aaron Brown and greenfrog and ann, thanks. (ann, I’m to take your comment to mean that you liked the post, right?) Matt B, my point is that our moral compass must guide us, even when it comes to keeping God’s “commandments.” Seth’s and Brian’s jokes about coffee aside, I’m not talking about foregoing behaviors that are morally neutral. Whatever aesthetic grounds I may assert in favor of drinking coffee, I certainly have no moral objection to its prohibition (and just to be clear, I do not drink coffee — not that there’s anything wrong with that…). I’m trying to address the question that arises about what we should do when we feel a strong moral objection to something that comes down from church leadership. Brian Duffin and Seth R, sorry to disappoint, but I don’t plan on drinking coffee until either (a) I’m resurrected or (b) the church lifts its ban. Dan, it had better not be an oligarchy. At any rate, I think that since the dissolution of the Danites it has been less autocratic than that. onelowerlight, what part of my post do you think implies that we shouldn’t “always be ready to alter our moral judgments as we grow and learn”? I’m left to wonder how teachable your obedience to religious orthodoxy is. Are you open to learning moral precepts that run counter to those espoused by the religious orthodoxy that you’ve adopted as your personal moral authority? |
Yes, I’ve liked that the church has shifted away from the “fire and brimstone” of the 30s-70s and emphasized love and compassion a great deal more than before. |
DKL, I know what the idea was. It’s just a bad idea. On the one hand you have your so called internal sense of right and wrong, the ability to tell “their” from “there”, but of course, this internal sense is a learned reaction to understanding the rules and being obedient to them. You weren’t born knowing or caring about this rule. The choice here is not obedience or disobedience, it is deciding which of two things you are going to be obedient to. You chose in this case to be obedient to your own perceptions of what was going on, the pattern, which was not created by the teacher or anyone else external to yourself, and you were wrong. You had two conflicting senses of right and wrong internally within you. And I’ll also note your teacher wasn’t very “liberal” in allowing your dissent in the spelling of the word. Some forms of dissent are, frankly, stupid or worse. No one is saying “hey, that guy just shot a bunch of people at virginia tech. We should tolerate his dissent.” |
I’m not convinced that you know what the idea is yet, Matt. At least, you’re mistaken if you think that the examples falls prey to the philosophical critique of the given. There is an innate ability to distinguish between usages that must be developed and refined in order to discriminate between “their” and “there.” Apart from the aspect that requires spelling, humans develop this ability without any specific training — homonyms exist whether there is written language or not. The spelling portion adds a whole new level of complexity. Though we’re born with an innate moral sense, we are not born with a full compliment of moral sentiments. These, too, must be developed and refined in order to allow some degree of generalization and discrimination among different situations. Ethical and legal codes add a level complexity that is similar in many ways to the complexity that spelling and alphabets add to our innate linguistic capability. The issue in my story of Mrs. Karns’ quiz wasn’t primarily one of misspelling. The spelling signified the differentiation between the verbal usage. We simply teach such things, the same way that we teach that the world is round. Nor is the Virginia Tech shooting example material. The shooter didn’t simply dissent. He decided to shoot people because his girlfriend dissented from him. I’ll leave it up to you to decide whether her dissent was stupid or worse. I feel like this is discussion is a bit futile, though. I do think that you’re wrong on the epistemological analysis, but whatever the basis was for recognizing the usage of “their” or “there,” it just isn’t relevant. One can even view it as a metaphor if one chooses. Heck, my analysis of obedience can even be divorced entirely from the story of Mrs. Karns’ quiz. |
DKL, Nor am I convinced tat you know what the idea is yet. The last time I checked, we weren’t born speaking, and thus we do not have an “innate” sense of usage of homynyms, we have a learned sense of usage based on learned perception of contextual rules and social norms within our society. If some one asked you if they’re going, and you responded “They’re”, confussion would ensue. While I do believe that there is an internal sense of right and wrong, and it could even be in some senses innate, our sense of right and wrong can only be informed by the information we perceive on hand. If the information which informs of is biased, incorrect, or ill conceived, our sense of right and wrong can also make incorrect assessments. However, it is given to us to choose, and we must choose. Sometimes, the best course is to choose to give other people the benefit of the doubt and follow, even when the available information seems contrary. Sometimes, the only course available is one of dissent, as you suggest. However, most often, the best option is to appropriately and patiently engage in dialogue until the issue is resolved, one way or another. This is not dissent, this is willingness to raise concerns in an open friendly manner. It’s fundamental requirement is trust. After all this, perhaps what is truly at issue here is that I have a different definition in mind when I think of dissent. Dissent makes me think of the boy who is losing and so takes the ball and goes home… As to virginia tech, I didn’t say dissent was stupid or worse, but that sometimes toleration of dissent was stupid or worse. I probably shouldn’t have brought up virginia tech, as it in poor taste. I will use a different example. I am here dissenting in opinion to you. It would be stupid or worse for you to simply say “Well, Matt disagrees, I guess I better do what he says.” rather than field your concerns. Then we negotiate until we reach an understanding, or we do not and we go our seperate ways. I believe there are fundamental things you can not disagree with in the church without seperating yourself from the church. Without getting into specific details, (and not meaning you at all DKL.) I think there are people who want to be considered LDS who have seperated themselves from the church, not neccasarily always because of the issue they dissented on, but in the way the dissented. I think tolerating their dissent ought to only go so far. Of course, my opion on this is only based on my sense of right and wrong as it is informed by the information I have on hand… You may be right as to the futility of this discussion, but I hope I have furthered it in any case. |
Matt W, without an innate capacity to differentiate homonyms, we simply wouldn’t be able to. It would be like trying to smell without any faculties of olfactory perception. You keep insisting that the innate capacity must be developed. I never said that it didn’t, and it’s entirely beside the point. In any case, it’s becoming evident that you probably didn’t read the entire post. The last paragraphs deal expressly with the importance of having honest dialogue and the possibilities of changing one’s outlook. Please go back and read that. It’s not clear to me that we disagree. |
Reviewing your post, I do believe we are not to far off from one another. I am going to leave homonyms alone. You are correct that it is besides the point. (I was just trying to point out that not all dissent is good or positive, and not all people can be one over when they dissent.) Upon first reading, I did skip over the last bit as I thought about your example. Having read it now, it solidifies a point I am trying to make. I see an analogue where the “heterodox” accuse the “orthodox” of discounting their ideas on grounds of “impiety” while the “orthodox” accuse the “heterodox” of discounting their ideas on grounds of “over piety.” This isn’t bad, as past experience probably merits a healthy dose of skepticism from both parties. I just think that the dissenter needs to be equally as tractable as the dissentee and respect the system and follow the appropriate methods for dissent, even when their dissent involves those very methods. |
Wow! An amazing post, a bloggernacle classic. |
wow. Remind me to nominate this for a Niblet next time around. I’ll comment more when I have a minute. |
DKL, I answered your first question in my previous post. When you make comments like “no illiberal God is worthy of my worship,” it gives me the impression that you aren’t as teachable as the gospel requires you to be. As for myself, I understand that there is a difference between prophets and prophets and prophets as people, and that they are entitled to hold personal (and sometimes errant) opinions. However, in a religion such as the LDS Church which teaches that living prophets receive revelation from God for the world, I do believe there comes a time where you have to say “I don’t understand why this is right, but I know that this is God’s church, led by prophets, and I’ll follow His prophets until I know why it’s right.” If you don’t, you’re toeing the line of apostasy. Far be it from me to be your judge or to cast the mote out of your eye, but I want to let you know that that’s the impression that I get. I don’t know you and I can’t judge you. Likewise, you don’t know me and can’t judge me. |
onelowerlight, since the last three paragraphs of the post are given over to the importance of honestly discussing moral disagreements, I’m confused how you would construe anything in my post as indicating that I’m not teachable. I don’t know for sure, but I’m guessing that you take me to be unteachable because I’m objecting to your idea of God. If I said, “A God who dwells on Mount Olympus, throws lightening bolts, has numerous illegitimate children, and makes love to cows is not worthy of my worship,” would you call my teachability into question? And your insistence on the objective moral authority of the church is misplaced. You’ve made an investment of moral authority in the church. In order to do so, you had to recognize on some level that the church’s program is good. This is your own moral judgment, one it is anterior to and independent from the morality of the church itself. Therefore, even in your own system, the church is not the ultimate moral authority — you are, because you’re the one who adopted the church’s moral framework. That’s not apostasy. It’s simply the way that moral sentiments work. |
DKL, Not only are you not teachable, but you demean Greeks and Romans without any shame. You give a straight-out lie–that Zeus made love to a cow–without acknowledging that the cow (Io) was a woman first, transformed by Zeus himself to protect her from his wife’s wrath. As I translate this into Mormon folklore, your subconscious misogyny is worse than the fact that you’re not teachable. |
I recall a woman who believed wholeheartedly that the most important principles of the gospel were 1) obedience and 2) order. I replied that those were the most important principles according to Hitler (and I think I hurt her feelings). |
Liberalism teaches us that progress comes by tolerating dissent . . . . Yes, but this teaching ends when the dissenters act or argue against this very principle of toleration. Progressives are most intolerant of the status quo! And progressives love to hate the intolerant; perhaps because they see in the intolerant a reflection of their own cognitive dissonance? Truth is searing indeed! Your problem is the ability to distinguish (or not) what is truth and what should be obeyed. |
Wade, who is and isn’t tolerant has nothing to do with it; we’re talking about principles, not whether some people who pay the principles lip service actually embody them. And, in any case, “liberal” (in the classical sense) is not the same as “progressive.” Plus, I think that you missed my point about the source of moral authority that I state in my post and have repeated in my comments. Moreover, truth isn’t my problem. In fact, it’s not even a problem. Truth, if it is anything, is a property of beliefs and (by derivation) sentences. When someone says, “Oxford is the capital of England is false,” they’re not saying anything more than, “Oxford is not the capital of England.” Conversely, when we say, “London is the capital of England is true,” we’re simply saying “London is the capital of England.” An we’d never say, “I believe that Oxford is the capital of England, but of course that’s false.” What we call “the problem of truth” never amounts to anything more than the problem of justifying our beliefs. May B, ROTFLMAO. You’re juxtaposition of Zeus, Johnny Lingo, the Holy Ghost, Wilbur, and Charlotte is breathtaking. That makes me some terrific, radiant, humble pig. But rest assured, the God I worship digs chicks. O.R. Knot, I haven’t thought about it that far, because I don’t tend to attribute any amount of cosmic purpose to my thick-headedness. But I’m inclined to agree. |
Excuse me? DIGS CHICKS?? Did I just catch you using yet another farm animal to symbolize women? All this talk of truth and you can’t even get your head out of the trough. |
ROTFLMAO = Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off (more animal imagery). But don’t you go diss’ing on the cultural revolution. Mao Suit’s are sexy. But I’m inclined to think that if we’re going to delve into the sexual politics of animals and animal imagery, then the zoo is a more appropriate setting than the farm (Orwell notwithstanding). |
“Thus, for the individual, a religion is not good until the individual makes the judgment that it is good, and God has nothing to say about it. It accomplishes nothing to posit an “objective†standard for good or evil, because the individual must recognize that, too, as good, so that it poses the same problem.” I don’t understand this, DKL. If I say, “My pencil is yellow,” I do not know that it is yellow until I make a judgment that it is yellow. But it is yellow whether or not I ever see it or judge it. How are you proposing “good” is different than “yellow”? More importantly, I doubt the concept of private moral conscience in Mormonism altogether. The Book of Mormon says that everyone is given the Light of Christ, so that they may know good from evil (suggesting that it is necessary to distinguishing good and evil; see also 2 Nephi 2:16), in which case there is no private conscience, only varying degrees of hearing or heeding the Light of Christ, or true morality. |
Matt E.–I find your post troubling. My particular speciality has become race relations in the LDS Church and in other churches during the 19th and 20th centuries. The evils which people not only permitted but justified using misinterpretations of the scriptures boggles the mind. Is slavery good or evil? Evil, obviously. Isn’t it? But what if God says it’s okay–in fact that it’s part of “Natural Law”? Then does our moral compass suggest that the evil we’ve recognized in slavery has been merely an over-reaction? (Is the pencil REALLY yellow or a light shade of orange? Isn’t it open to interpretation?) |
I suspect that DKL and I actually have few political or ecclesiastical disagreements. I subscribe to some version of classical liberalism and I think that heavy handed tactics by church leaders against dissenters etc. are almost always counter productive. On the other hand, it seems to me that a key aspect of Mormonism is a claim to various kinds of authority, and I really have no idea how to make sense of the concept of authority without saying that it at least theoretically requires obedience in the face of one’s own differing conclusions. This is the difference between saying that X is an authority and saying that I agree with X. I can of course agree with an authority, but agreement and authority strike me as conceptually distinct. Hence, while we ought to be quite concerned about the proper scope of authority and its abuse, I do think that we need to make room for the notion of obedience. Clearly, within current Mormon culture there is little danger that we will lose the rhetoric of obedience. On the other hand, given the consistently short shrift that Mormon intellectuals give to the concept of authority and obedience, I fear that we don’t think about it particularlly well. Insisting that only a liberal god is worship worthy, strikes me as a rather extreme example of this problem. Indeed, I am pretty certain that god is not a philosophical liberal. |
Margaret: Conscience, however, can also have an antinomian side to it. The streets of Munster ran red with blood because the claims of conscience were elevated above the claims of socially imposed norms. The whole cult of sensibility and the way that it fed the Terror during the French Revolution was in large part about asserting the claims of conscience against the claims of established social norms. This is not quite the same point that Matt is making. On the other hands, I don’t see that emperically we are justified in believing that elevating the authority of conscience is likely to lead to less human-created suffering. Burke was at least as prescient as Levinas in addressing the causes of human evil. |
Good points, Nate. The truth is that the issue is not nearly as easy as we’d like it to be. Self-guided people are certainly capable of great atrocity, as are institutionally-guided people. We all play somewhere in the middle–or I believe that is implicit in the Plan of Salvation. We’re all going to screw up. If a leader screws up, he might take down a whole congregation because they have trusted his words and views. |
Matt, perceptions of the color yellow is a good example. Some objects have properties that elicit a perception of yellow, but the objects are not yellow in themselves — this is what led Locke to call them secondary properties. There’s an elaborate theory about how our senses interact with “the world” to create color perception. This leads many people to conclude mistakenly that color perceptions reflect an objective aspect of reality, but perceived colors are not wavelengths. You can perceive colors by pressing on your eyeballs with your eyes closed. We perceive colors in our dreams. And there are numerous illusions like the same color illusion. In the end, whether it’s a well-lit object or a dream or an hallucination or an illusion, you’re the ultimate arbiter of what you see as yellow. Nobody else can dictate to you what colors you see. You just see them, and that’s that. This isn’t to say that you can’t learn more about differentiating colors (e.g., lavender vs. lilac vs. heliotrope), but it does mean that any given color sensation is incorrigible. Thankfully, there’s a lot of overlap in how we perceive colors, otherwise traffic lights wouldn’t work. There’s also a lot of overlap in how we perceive moral issues. But imagine a traffic light with one bulb that changed between lavender, lilac, and heliotrope. There would be frequent disagreement about which color the stoplight was showing, and it would frequently appear to be a color that didn’t correspond to its wavelength simply because of the environment (distance from the light or direct sunlight vs. shade, for example). As far as Jacob, siting scripture doesn’t change (or even challenge) the logic that I describe. First of all, the meaning of scriptures change over time. At one point, the passage, “Thou shalt not suffer that a witch should live” was among the most influential passages in the Bible. Now we employ a variety of devices to discredit it. Plus, your own acceptance of Jacob depends on a judgment that you’ve made that is logically prior to Jacob’s morality. Besides, the way I read it, Jacob is simply proposing a source of our private moral conscience. Lastly, the Light of Christ doesn’t serve to eliminate moral ambiguity, because it underdetermines the best outcome. Two perfectly moral people can disagree about the moral superiority of one action over another — it’s not a matter of which one is following the light of Christ more closely. This is the essence of accountability: your moral choices begin and end with you. |
Margaret, I’m not a fan of Levinas, but I agree with you 100%. |
Not a fan of Levinas? Repentence is always available, Brother. Don’t give up. Search, ponder, and pray. |
Nate, I agree that the issue of authority is different from the issue of whether someone is correct. I think that the problem of obedience is what to do when an authority is incorrect; i.e., what’s the criteria for yielding to authority over conscience? I’m asserting that there is a threshold past which no authority — religious or otherwise — lays a legitimate claim on our conscience. As far as God being illiberal: if that’s the way he is that I hereby officially renounce any interest in the experiencing a spiritual rebirth that returns me to His presence. To do otherwise feels contrary to my nature. My tough luck, I guess. I’d like to emphasize that I’m specifically talking about dissent as it occurs within the framework of discussion. Nothing that I’ve said addresses the problem of civil disobedience. Thankfully, most of the countries in which likely readers reside prevent civil authorities from interfering with most forms of speech. Sadly, many religious institutions (including our own) have not caught up with this. |
Margaret, I’m a logical positivist (this post and the comments I’ve offered in defense of it are just oozing with positivism). Therefore, I cannot like Levinas. Sorry. |
Margaret, I didn’t defend institutional authority, I was claiming that God is our moral arbiter, and that only through God (through revelation and the light of Christ) can we know right from wrong. |
Dang, DKL, I didn’t get the checklist for logical positivists and thus didn’t realize that Levinas was a forbidden fruit. Of course, it is a moral choice to not respond positively to Levinas, but it is the wrong choice and inevitably leads to semantic labyrinths started with words like “illiberal.” (Remember that I don’t use smiley faces, as they mock REAL faces.) Matt: I think God expects us to become our own moral arbiters at some point in our progression, or our eternal life and exaltation are quite different from the way Mormonism defines. We’re not talking about children choosing crayons, but about much higher morality. If we are indeed capable of literally becoming gods ourselves, not merely reflections or fulfillments of God’s goodness, then we must make choices which are rich with ambiguities and possibilities–and often paradoxical. The dilemma which Adam and Eve faced–the idea of disobeyong God in order to obey God’s greater order–is merely the introductory course. |
DKL, Thanks for your response, but I still don’t understand your post. Let’s use “pencil” instead (or “triangle”). The properties that constitute “pencil” or “light” exist independent and prior to my judgment that something has the properties of “pencil” or “light”. How are you proposing that the properties that constitute “good” are different from the properties that define “pencil” or “light”? |
“I think God expects us to become our own moral arbiters” Margaret, while I don’t know what it would mean to be our own moral arbiters, this wouldn’t contradict my argument so long as it is what “God expects us” to do. Because God defines goodness, if he expects something of us it is good. I admit a heirarchy of goods (i.e., Adam and Eve), and my view would be contradicted only if there are circumstances where we have a moral obligation to do something God does not want us to do. |
Matt, I’ve already answered that. You keep framing the issue as though I’ve got to convince you that you’re not the ultimate arbiter of what you call a yellow pencil, because you ask (in effect), “I call something a yellow pencil for this reason, why shouldn’t I?” I’m saying that you are the ultimate arbiter of what you call a pencil, just like you’re the ultimate arbiter of what you call yellow and what you call good. Let’s say that the Creator tells you that something is a black Steinway concert grand piano, but best you can tell, and no matter how hard you look at it over any given period of time, it’s a yellow pencil. Let’s say you also have a dialogue with said Creator in which you received no very good explanation of why it’s a black Steinway concert grand. Maybe you’d respond, “You’re right, Creator. It’s a black Steinway concert grand piano.” Not me. I’d say, “Sorry, Creator. Even assuming You’re right, You just didn’t give me the equipment to see things that way.” So it is with my moral sentiments. And what is wrong with God’s edicts is a fortiori wrong with the edicts of his mouthpieces. This should suffice to answer your request to explain things in terms of yellow pencils. Moving on: You keep asserting that there’s some objective good that’s already laid down, like when you assert God defines goodness — I presume that He defines goodness in some non-trivial sense that is different from the way that the Queen defines manners in England. But you’ve offered nothing to answer or challenge my assertion, stated in the post and repeated numerous times in my comments, that the moral judgment to accept a moral system is, within the moral framework of the individual, anterior to that moral system. On a side note, your assertions about the properties of a pencil aren’t altogether cogent. They reflect a view called naive realism. This view is not without proponents, but it is also not a well accepted view. That’s fine, because you’re also the ultimate arbiter of the metaphysical presuppositions that you make about the world that you interact with. But best I can tell, the actual pencil is composed of bits of energy pulsing in a void. There’s nothing innately yellow about it. The property of being yellow arises due to the faculties of human perception. There’s no logical reason our world couldn’t be peopled by severely color-blind people, each one suffering from some type of cone monochromacy. In such a world nothing would be different about the pencils themselves. They just wouldn’t be yellow. |
DKL: I agree that there is a threshold past which authority cannot claim to take a person who disagrees. On the other hand, I don’t think that that threshold lies at the point of mere disagreement. Put another way, I think that authority can provide a legitimate reason for acting and believing even in cases where we disagree. Not only are authority and correctness two different things, but authority and agreement are two different things. After all, there is nothing about the fact that I believe something that makes it correct. |
“Liberalism teaches us that progress comes by tolerating dissent, and no illiberal God is worthy of my worship. God has given me a moral compass that tells me so. If He expected more, He should have given me a better one. Whatever our moral convictions, we must be open to persuasion.” Well done! |
Nate: Put another way, I think that authority can provide a legitimate reason for acting and believing even in cases where we disagree. I completely agree. Hence the emphasis on discussion in the last three paragraphs of my post. Nate: …there is nothing about the fact that I believe something that makes it correct. Fair enough. I don’t see how this is relevant. Have you read the entire post? As mfranti points out, the exact sentence that follows my rejection of an illiberal God states “we must be open to persuasion.” Regarding specifically to the problem of correct beliefs, we don’t experience our current beliefs as incorrect — no matter how tentatively we approach them. As I stated in an earlier comment, when someone says, “The statement Oxford is the capital of England is incorrect,†they’re simply saying, “Oxford is not the capital of England.†Conversely, when we say, “The statement London is the capital of England is correct,†we’re simply saying “London is the capital of England.†An we’d never say, “I believe that Oxford is the capital of England, but of course that’s incorrect.†What we call “the problem of truth†never amounts to anything more than the problem of justifying our beliefs. |
why do we feel the need to justify our beliefs? |
mfranti, it’s not that we need to justify beliefs as a practice. The idea is that when it comes to studying how knowledge works, we find that some beliefs are more rational than others and some seem more certain than others. When we ask what the basis is for certain types of beliefs in the abstract, we’re talking about what justifies different types of beliefs. |
Margaret Young: Remember that I don’t use smiley faces, as they mock REAL faces. No way. Smiley faces are to faces like icons are to saints. Thus, when you use a smiley in your comment, you say, “Thou shalt not kill.” I’ll have to do another post on the obedience requirements demanded by the logical positivist orthodoxy. Mostly, I’m obliged to eschew obscurantist jeremiads in favor of genuine profundity, but I think I need to get more specific. |
No, DKL, when I see I smiley face, I think “Run Forrest, Run!” |