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Just for a point of clarification, It was my understanding that the study by albrecht focused on those born in the church. I have never seen an accurate similar study for converys, which according to the Church’s Member and Statistical Records Division, first-generation members made up 64% of total Church membership as of July 2006 |
Good points. Like you, I didn’t interpret Dutcher’s statement as “leaving the church,” but more like disengaging, nonpracticing. There is a huge difference between people who renounce membership and affiliation with the church, and people who disengage but maintain ties to the faith through family, friends, and even occaisional worship. The former effectively washes his hands of any and all Mormon ties and identity markers, the latter likely maintains fond feelings for the culture and faith that shaped him. Dutcher isn’t trying to erase his Mormon past, he’s just moving on. |
Funny, because most of his movies seemed to really enlighten me…heh. |
One more thing. I hope starism doesn’t erode at Jon Heder. |
Good points, Matts. Dutcher himself was a convert, though I believe a youthful one, and it’s clear to me that he embraces the influence Mormonism has had on his life – not only personal ties, but also on his work. He’s acknowledged that his next film, _Falling_, though not explicitly Mormon, is shaped by a Mormon sensiblity – I’d imagine in the same way much of Orson Scott Card’s work is. The first Matt’s point is also useful – it should be noted that Albrecht’s study only covered American Mormons as well. I expect things to be much different outside the US. Anybody not named Matt – or Ben – want in on this? |
I’m not a Matt or a Ben. I don’t really have anything to add, except that there’s some seriously good posting going on over here. Carry on! |
I think just by looking at the roles Jon Heder has played at you can see the erosion. However, I have no idea (nor is it my business) what his activity in the church is. Katherine Heigl (Grey’s Anatomy) was raised LDS you know… |
Ah numbers. I’m really curious on more statistics about activity and inactivity in the church. This is one thing I really love about the bloggernacle; you get both active and inactive members writing for all to see exactly what they are thinking. The more we can expand this and understand members who go inactive the better we can help them back into activity. As for Mr. Dutcher, I don’t know him personally, nor have seen any of his movies, except God’s Army. As I wrote on Sunstone blog’s post on Mr. Dutcher, I wonder what kind of effect his “leaving” the church will have on future LDS filmmakers. Because, let me tell you, I want to see good talent out there sharing good LDS-themed stories. Hollywood’s standards are far too low for me. Or, is the world of filmmaking really that corrupt? |
Ann – Thanks; I’m glad you’re here. You know, Heder’s decision to appear in Benchwarmers definitely shows an erosion of _something_.
I’m not so convinced it is; I’m skeptical about assumptions that ‘Hollywood’ is a discrete, conscious entity of corruption and vice that inevitably sucks well-meaning young people into hedonism like in that Poison video. Further, it seems to me that inactivity is less a function of behavior and more a function of belief. |
Heder actually discussed his faith in movies. Apparently there was a scene in Blades of Glory that he refused to do, that the producers/directors said HAD to be done, and Heder stuck to his guns…the scene wasn’t done, or it wasn’t done with him in it. |
Heder is very active in the church. His family is very active, and while some of his films may contain juvenile material, you will notice that he doesn’t actively participate in that material. |
I don’t know about that. He kicked Will Ferrell in the crotch in Blades of Glory. Shouldn’t that be grounds for revoking a temple recommend? |
But was he wearing skates when he did it? I haven’t seen the movie, but I’d assume that using the skate would be much much worse. |
Let me clarify by juvenile material I meant you won’t see/hear him using coarse language(though I often do), you won’t see him drinking, or smoking, or engaged in a sex scene. Let’s not be so judgmental people. I know a man who is as active as a person can be, who makes movies for a living. Many of these movies have been rated R, some of them said the F-word, and some of them actually showed naked women(ah the horror). Many of his films have not only been extremely successful at the box-office but have also been critically acclaimed. |
Matt B: “I’m not so convinced it is; I’m skeptical about assumptions that ‘Hollywood’ is a discrete, conscious entity of corruption and vice that inevitably sucks well-meaning young people into hedonism like in that Poison video.” I believe Hollywood is that bad, if not in consciously knowing the end result, at least in the consciously knowing that one of their goals is the ever pushing of the envelope, stretching the limits. Once the envelope is pushed, that becomes the new standard. From that point, it takes pushing the limits even more to titillate the audience and to maintain and gain market share. To verify this, stop watching TV for 1 or 2 years, then turn it back on and see how far things have progressed. About 1.5 years ago (start of fall 2005 season), there was a noticeable lowering of the necklines (increase in cleavage) in _all_ prime-time network shows. They all seemed to do it at the same time, at the start of that season. “Further, it seems to me that inactivity is less a function of behavior and more a function of belief.” Take it from someone who has always had a burning testimony since right before joining the church, but who still went inactive, and then requested name-removal. It’s as much about behavior, if not more so, than belief. It may be the opposite for those who merely believe and don’t have a true _knowing_ kind of testimony. But once the Holy Ghost has caused you to truly _know_ something, and burned it in, you can’t “un-know” it. You can deny it and suppress it, but at a gut level you still know it’s true. I’ve read Dutcher’s bio on his http://www.richarddutcher.com web site. I believe Dutcher _knows_ the church is what it claims to be. He has merely to resolve certain things that appear to be contradictions and paradoxes, and learn how to deal with them from inside the church. The problem is that you can’t really learn from the outside. However, experience on the outside will teach one that they need to get back on the inside, and seek answers there. I believe he will eventually realize that Mormon artists and (so-called) intellectuals who live on the outside really haven’t figured it all out. In my opinion, living on the outside, after once having had a testimony, will only teach you that the answers aren’t to be found on the outside. After I suffered the spiritual cold and loneliness on the outside, and a spiritual butt-kickin’, I finally realized that the things about life and existance that I needed to figure out were on the inside; and that the struggle on the inside of the church and gospel is actually less painful and gut-wrenching than the struggle outside the church and gospel. IOW, the only answer on the outside is that the answers aren’t to be found on the outside. That’s why people often have to hit bottom, and realize they have performed an exhaustive search before that conclusion is arrived at. |
Great post, Matt. As I’ve stated so often elsewhere, I detest the view that chalks up disaffection to sin or pride. Dutcher is in an unusual position, since he’s made a career out of being a Mormon artist. For my part, I appreciate how candid he’s has been about where he stands relative to Mormon beliefs. I’m saddened by Dutcher’s decision, but just for selfish reasons; his absence will create a void in our culture. The mere idea that there could be films that were great because they were unselfconsciously and straightforwardly Mormon (and not in spite of it) was so ambitious and gutsy that it’s difficult to appreciate today. Back before Dutcher, I’d long since habituated to the smarmy, fake gospel of seminary videos, and I was openly hostile to the idea of portraying Mormonism on film. When a friend of mine whose taste in movies I trust pushed one of Dutcher’s films onto me, I agreed to watch it with all the give-me-a-break skepticism I could muster (and that’s a lot). Once I watched it, I was awestruck. Dutcher didn’t just conceive of characters and narratives defined in terms of Mormonism, he delivered them, and on a grand scale. Dutcher’s films offer the classiest, most true-to-life portrayals of Mormons and Mormonism available. His movies belong in our homes, because they are the crown jewel of our artistic culture. If there is a message that we should send to those who choose other paths to spiritual fulfillment, it is not that they are defective or dangerous or wrong or unneeded. On the contrary, we must to do our best to make sure that both newcomers and returning old-timers feel welcome within our community of believers. Because they are. |
“Albrecht, et al, broke down inactives along two axes – believer versus nonbeliever; engaged versus disengaged. The former is self-explanatory; the latter is divided among those who say the church is important to them and those who say it is not.” I am not sure belief *is* self-explanatory. I think there is a wide range of the type of belief that members have. I’ve known members, some who served in ward and stake leadership, who admitted that they only believe, they don’t know, the way some other people know. These individuals I know are very humble about this, and if you listen to them bear testimony when forced to (which is required of every member of the bishopric and RS presidency on some fast sunday or another), they will say they believe and not that they know. All of the folks I know in that category have expressed some frustration that they don’t know. But belief is enough for them to get by. The other thing about “engagement” is that the type and nature of that varies a lot. I know folks who consider themselves active, who go to church every Sunday and ever Enrichment meeting and service project, but neve pick up a book on scripture except in church meetings. They are engaged with the church, not so much with the gospel. |
Bookslinger - About Hollywood – I don’t think we share the same assumptions; you speak of “their goals” as though the variety of participants in the American movie industry are a singular entity of one mind and motivation. I doubt this; thus, I expect ‘Hollywood’ to produce both mindless crap and uplifting brilliance; I expect both of these to be presented in a variety of ways. I expect contradiction. About inactivity – I’m sure I’m speaking some from my own experience, as much as you are speaking from yours. I’m also drawing some on Albrecht’s data, which suggests that nearly two thirds of Mormons consider themselves non-believers at some point in their adult lives, and hence enter inactivity. (Of course, this indicates that nearly one third of Mormons become believing inactives for one reason or another, as you point out.) It seems to me that this indicates we may be putting the cart before the horse when we assume that inactivity is therefore the result of sin. Saying that an inactive who drinks is inactive because they are sinning seems to be missing the point; maybe they are inactive because they don’t believe drinking is a sin. I agree with you on Dutcher’s sincerity; he seems genuinely to be a seeker, and I wish him well. Dave – your third paragraph more or less nails how I feel about this; I’m somewhat troubled by how difficult a time many of our legitimate artists seem to be having with staying in the Church. I’d like for Mormon art to be serious and worth taking seriously for its Mormonism. Naismith – I think your distinctions are useful; D&C 46 reminds us that ‘knowing’ is not the only valid mode of belief. Would that we didn’t teach our kids that they have to testify that “I know the church is true” without thinking about the subtleties of that statement. For purposes of the survey, though, I believe Albrecht let his subjects self-define; “engagement” simply meant that the Church remained important to them in some way. |
A simple example is Lamen and Lemuel. They knew angels existed and they knew of the power of God for they experienced it first hand multiple times. That still didn’t effect their actions much, maybe for a couple of weeks, months or years. Jon Heder has been in toilet bowl humor movies, nothing I think is bad. Just crossing the fingers he doesn’t get involved in throwing down the ‘F’ word or getting nude on screen. |
Ben – I’m not so sure Laman and Lemuel are useful examples; firstly because we know only of them what is presented, which is hardly a well-rounded and complete portrayal. Nephi is not the most sympathetic narrator. Secondly, their experiences were, more or less, extraordinary. Thirdly, their context and situation makes equating their behavior to that of modern inactives almost useless. |
Matt B: “I don’t think we share the same assumptions; you speak of “their goals†as though the variety of participants in the American movie industry are a singular entity of one mind and motivation. I doubt this; thus, I expect ‘Hollywood’ to produce both mindless crap and uplifting brilliance; I expect both of these to be presented in a variety of ways. I expect contradiction.” But I’m not commenting on the crap/brilliance dimension of Hollywood. That measurement is irrelevant to the concept of pushing the envelope, which happens all along that dimension. I really do believe that the various participants, good and bad, high and low, true artists and mere money-grubbers, just about all, in the movie industry all really do want to push the envelope and stretch limits. Hollywood is about money, pure and simple. Regardless of the artistic aspirations of writers and directors, nothing gets done without money, and those who control the money get their way and over-ride the writers and directors. And money is about getting butts into the seats in movie theaters, selling DVDs, and Nielson ratings on TV And getting butts into the movie seats, and Nielson ratings is about controversy, titillation, and pushing the envelope. I honestly believe that anecdotal story told by some General Authority quoting Mick Jagger who sat next to him on an airplane umpteen years ago, in which Jagger is reported to have said that the goal of the Rolling Stones was to get kids to have sex. That is so in line with Hollywood. Even uplifting and brilliant films such as “Pay It Forward” and “My Big Fat Greek Wedding” had unecessary scenes of the main characters having sex outside of marriage. |
*shrug* Fair enough; we disagree. I’m not sure I buy the implied causation between “pushing the envelope” and “profits” that you take for granted. Indeed, I doubt a lot of film producers buy it. Though there is quite the market for low-budget horror films, guys like Jerry Bruckheimer and Joel Silver are always careful to make their summer blockbusters PG13, and G-rated animated films (Pixar, Disney) are almost always at the top of the boxoffice wrapup every year. I’m not sure why you lump Mick Jagger in with Hollywood. Different industry; heck, different nationality. It seems to me you’re stretching your definitions to the point of making them worthless. On the whole, you seem to be using ‘Hollywood’ as shorthand for general cultural permissiveness, a trend which I think has many more progenitors than Hollywood alone. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that here, the movies follow rather than create. |
Richard Dutcher is very good-looking and appears to be a person who sees you when he looks at you. He’s wasting his ability outside the church because we need people like him in the church, isolated as he might sometimes seem. He could influence and love people as few can and we need more of that in the church. I feel he’s over-rated as a filmmaker because nobody else has dared to tackle the tough issues of life as a Mormon. He hasn’t made all that great of movies, but it’s a start. I find myself often on the outside for my beliefs (ie, I believe in the woman’s right to choose)and it’s tough to be an iconoclast in this church. But I know that there are people in our ward whose lives have been blessed because I dare to be myself and I am loud and proud about my faith in the gospel. The loss is not in the movies he will or will not make, it’s in the gifts he has been given to serve that he will not accept. |