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I completely agree with you on this. I have always argued that we need to get to the root of the problem. The root being the people’s attitudes and beliefs. By making laws like this, we only end up cutting off the branches. The tree will continue to grow because nothing really changes. It’s so easy to make new laws and then sit back and say “my job is done”, it’s a much more difficult and grueling task to make a social change. |
Mitt’s ambition is strong than his principles. He wants to be president very badly and saw an opening on the right and went for it. I doubt that I’ll vote for him. I should note that I voted for him enthusiastically for governor of Massachusetts. |
I’m not sure I understand exactly what you’re saying, is it that Mitt Romney might do the church (and the world) a disservice by diluting his views to become elected? I’m pro-choice/pro-life, so if he could find moderation on his views of abortion, I would be heartened rather than dismayed. My objections, or rather, reservations, about Mitt lie with my repugnance at his using his religion. It’s very hard for a non-Mormon to get elected in Utah and I despise that because so many Mormons are jerks. He reminds me very much of his father, who wasn’t my favorite either. I certainly wouldn’t vote for him just because he’s a Mormon. At the moment I’m leaning toward Barak Obama, although his recent statements about late term abortion are alarming. |
I like the old Mitt better, and had felt pretty confident that old Mitt is the real Mitt. But at the panel discussion at Sunstone West yesterday, it was pointed out that being president in 2008 means campaigning for 2012 immediately, and that sometimes promises are extracted from nominees. Now I’m concerned old Mitt won’t come back. Do you think some of the Nascar hunting crap comes from not wanting to be seen as an elitist like Kerry? I think the stories about him bringing his own popcorn to the movies would be a more honest and effective way of showing that Mitt’s a Brahmin of the people. |
I like the old Mitt. I would have voted for the old Mitt, because I thought he was a fantastic example of a member of the church who held well-thought out, moderate views. He could have been a great example to members of the church, but he made a choice not to, and he has decided to pander to audiences that I don’t want to be affiliated with. We really ought to be worried about living in a country where people that appear smart can’t get elected. Bush isn’t as stupid as he makes himself seem, and Clinton, who is an incredibly smart man played up the whole southern bubba image. WHY? Its ridiculous really, and it says bad things about America, particularly the Republican party. |
So well said! I like the old Mitt that voted for Paul Tsongas (something the new Mitt would never ever do these days). |
Annegb (3), I think you and I think alike here; I basically think Mitt Romney would do everyone a disservice by going back on his skepticism of the role of government in issues that have their roots in moral teaching. For example, Dr. Laura — love or hate her — has prevented more abortions just by broadcasting the moral case against abortion than all of the effort and resources expended in legislative efforts. |
Mitt Romney should not look to Giulani for political guidance. |
or to John “Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran” McCain. |
Who is David Brooks? |
Brooks is a columnist for the New York Times. Brilliant thinker and writer. |
Here’s an excerpt from the column Dan mentions: Meanwhile, when you look at the statements of the abortion rights forces, you find they can’t even look this matter in the face. Read the statements by the Democratic presidential candidates. Read the protests from Planned Parenthood and Naral. They can’t even bring themselves to mention the word “fetus.†They are terrified of having an honest discussion about human life, so they have built this lofty etiquette of evasion that treats abortion as the moral equivalent of a tonsillectomy. If we could get this issue away from the abortion professionals and their orthodoxies, we could reach a sensible solution: abortion would be legal, with parental consent for minors, during the first four or five months, and illegal except in extremely rare circumstances afterward. Instead we get what we saw last week. A law that doesn’t address the core issue, a court decision so tangled in jurisprudence as to be impermeable to the outside world, and howling protests by people who can’t face the central concern. |
Tagore’s first sentence is accurate. |
eh, he’s not that brilliant. |
The Democrats are in the building. |
Dan (14), Do you have any specific reason to the contrary, or is it just “nu-uh…” I don’t mean that sarcastically; I just wonder if your objection to Tagore’s opinion is well-founded or just contrarian. Politically, I lean left on a lot of issues, but I have never been able to really embrace the Democratic Party because it seems the party’s whole existence centers around protesting conservative excess. It would be really hard for me to get behind a party whose entire philosophy boils down to “nu-uh…” Am I wrong? Right? In between? |
I was rotating the books in the bathroom this week and I came across David Brook’s “Bobos in Paradise” and while it is a little dated, all I could think of was the Bloggernacle crowd. He he |
Dan Ellsworth, I do have reasons to believe Mr. Brooks is really not that brilliant. I’m sure in certain areas of study he’s quite brilliant, but in others he’s just a partisan hack who envelops his beliefs in better writing than that of a Bill Kristol. Glenn Greenwald says it better than I can.
That is exactly what the right-wing movement in this country is now — an authoritarian movement animated by the Orwellian slogan that “security leads to freedom” which embraces and seeks ever-expanding government power based on the claimed need to protect people from all the scary, lurking dangers in the world — dangers which are constantly stoked and inflammed in order to maximize the craving for “security,” derived by vesting more and more power in the hands of our strong, protective Leaders. And it’s notable that Brooks specifically cites the limited-government views of Cato to disparage, since Cato itself has amply documented that there are few, if any, factions more hostile to limited government principles than the Bush-supporting right-wing movement that has dominated our country. As Cato’s comprehensive report concluded:
But neoconservatism — which is really what the right-wing pro-Bush movement has become — doesn’t believe in any of that, and Brooks’ column demonstrates that they are admitting that more and more explicitly. Instead, it touts a radical and authoritarian nanny-statism that seeks, at its core, to provide feelings of protection, safety, and moralistic clarity — “security leads to freedom” — all delivered by political leaders using ever-increasing federal government power and limitless militarism. Whether one believes in that radical and warped vision of the American federal government is, more than any other factor, what now determines one’s political orientation. This is a typical tactic used by right-wingers, project their views upon the whole populace even though their views don’t actually reflect the views of the whole populace. And Mr. Brooks does the same, as shown here. He’s not that brilliant. He may project himself well, but underneath, he’s as petty as Bill Kristol. |
Sorry, something happened there, and the “Brooks says:” part is missing. This is what he said:
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I don’t see any difference between Old Mitt and New Mitt. |
Dan (#18),
No projection needed- Brooks is right on. His comments you (and Greenwald) cited were not an expression of his personal beliefs; he was explaining where he thinks most people’s thinking is going, and he was right. Brooks is a sociology wonk, so much of his commentary is just explaining what he views as being social trends. Again, when he does that, he is not arguing personally one way or another. Predictably, Greenwald can’t see the difference, so he hyperventilates and projects his view of the right wing onto Brooks, painting him as being typical of neoconservative thinking. Brooks is sometimes right, sometimes wrong, and always honest. When he is shown to be wrong, he publicly corrects himself. By contrast, Glenn Greenwald hasn’t had an unpredictable or self-critical thought in…well, maybe ever. Greenwald’s remarks are typical of the left: group “right-wingers” into one monolithic train of thought, and view them as having a herd mentality, so you can feel like you have the superior, pluralistic, nuanced position. |
Dan Ellsworth, You’re quoting a report that is five years old. Why don’t you please show me numbers from TODAY, not from 2002. Times have changed, and most Americans today are strongly against the Bush administration, the war, and what David Brooks is talking about today. So yes, he is projecting. |
oh and Glenn Greenwald is no liberal. He’s libertarian. |
I like the old Mitt Romney less. I live in Massachusetts, and I can tell you first hand that the old Mitt Romney was a weasel. At least now he’s a weasel that appeals to the conservative base of the party — a base that has been historically receptive to “converts.” in contrast to the Democrat base, which is averse to anyone who’s shown the slightest sign of not being a true-beleiver. I find it unfortunate that you disparage the guns and NASCAR crowd. I don’t watch car racing, because I find professional sports to be inane all the way around. But guns rock. If Mitt’s not willing to open up to reasonable gun laws, then he doesn’t deserve the Republican nomination. The hot-button issues for me are intellectual property laws (i.e., copyrights and patents) and H1B visas. Both of which are in need of major overhauls in order to work in a technology driven marketplace. India graduates 2 million students a year with technology training, and unless we grab as many of them as possible (as well as those in China, Bangladesh, and elsewhere) we’ll quickly cease to be globally competitive. And given the short life-span of commercial products in the technological marketplace, patents and copyrights end up granting de facto irrevocable monopolies. These are real issues that impact our economy and our everyday lives, but nobody wants to discuss them because they don’t deal with the taboos adhered to by our troglodyte ancestors — and the voters who fancy themselves sophisticated due to their “broad-mindedness” on such issues are simply falling prey to a different form of the same provincial, taboo-boosting as their “narrow-minded” opponents. |
Dan, True– public opinion regarding the Bush administration and the war have changed. But public opinion has not changed in a way that discredits what Brooks is aaying. Gallup confirms that in 2007, terrorism is still a significant concern to Americans. http://www.galluppoll.com/content/default.aspx?ci=4909 I’m curious if you actually read Brooks or just commentary about Brooks. If you’ve actually read what he writes, I’m not sure how you can conclude that he’s a partisan hack. In the excerpt from his column on abortion I posted in #12, doesn’t the position on abortion he articulates belie your labeling? He’s also argued in favor of gay marriage. Not sure what your idea of a partisan hack is, but seems like it would have to be a pretty tortured to include Brooks. |
Dan, which do you think that Jesus prefers: the old Romney or the new Romney? |
DKL, “because I find professional sports to be inane all the way around.” Well knock me over with a feather, you finally said something I can agree with. |
DKL,
The old Romney |
Tagore, From the Gallup Poll you linked:
That is contradicting what Brooks said. Again, he is projecting on the American people things the American people do not believe like he does. As the Gallup Poll you just linked to says, just after the 9/11 attacks, the public was more divided (which is reflective in the link Dan Ellsworth showed from 2002. But in 2007, things have changed, and as the Gallup Poll you linked states, by more than 2-1 margin, Americans come down on the side of civil liberties over extra security measures. |
DKL, LOL- I would say the old Romney. At least the old Romney was honest…or was he? I can’t actually say for sure. Dan (22), Sorry; I misread the date (I’m dyslexic) and thought it was from 2006. Anyway, here’s something more current. I concede it’s my mistake to mischaracterize Greenwald as a liberal; what I tried to emphasize is that his approach was typical of the left. Libertarians and the left have a lot in common these days in their hostility to our current government, though I would bet that a Democratic president would not face corresponding outrage from the left over similar decisions involving civil liberties. I currently plan to vote for Obama in ’08; we may have a chance to test my hypothesis. |
Dan (29),
Again, David Brooks was not arguing a position. His column was not a statement of what he believes; it was an observation of what he thought to be a trend at the time. There are normative statements, and positive ones; his column was positive in tone. You are countering a normative argument from Brooks that he in fact never made. |
Dan (29), I should never have linked to Gallup. Clearly, they are just another Communist-sympathizing tool of the greater left-wing media hegemony. :) |
I took my three year old to NASCAR in Las Vegas this year. He loves race cars, so we went on Friday and saw some practice laps. My conclusions: 1. Very loud. If I ever run for office I’m sure this will come back to haunt me. Maybe seeing an actual race would have been better, but I had no desire to deal with the traffic and crowds. |
Dan Ellsworth,
But what does “the left” have to do with this? Mr. Greenwald is highly critical of a very corrupt system and you’ve branded him as a leftist, as if that’s some satanic cult.
No, it won’t be a “may have a chance,” but WILL have a chance. :) I’m currently planning on voting for Obama too. He’s really showing himself to be a good leader. Anyways, this is off topic. On topic, I’ve been thinking more and more about your use of the Nephi example from the Book of Helaman. He really did leave the government because they chose to not be governed by righteousness anymore. I wonder, can our current government actually be run by righteous individuals? At this point, I’m leaning on the answer being no. These past six years, for example, were run by a man professing a Christian faith, but it has been probably the most horrid administration in American history. (Yes, that is a strong judgment, but I think if we pull back and look at it objectively we’ll see just how bad this administration really is). I don’t think even a good righteous Mormon can at this point save this government as it stands. I mean, there are just too many pieces that need “cleaning” (meaning the removal of corrupted corroded cogs). Take Kyle Sampson for example. Just how many times did he say “I don’t remember” in his testimony to Congress? 123 times. That’s a lot that someone in as high a position as he was to not remember pretty easy things to remember. Even a BYU graduate got pulled in to the corruption to the point where his loyalty to corrupt leaders is more important to him than the truth. |
Dan: [in response to the question of whether Jesus would have preferred the old Romney or the new Romney] The old Romney Wrong! If Jesus were alive today he’d punch the old Romney in the face. |
DKL,
Huh, and why, pray, would the Lord of all the earth need to do something so petty and childish? I mean, let’s get creative here, DKL. I mean, we’re talking about the all-powerful. Surely you’re pretty creative. |
Sure, He’s all powerful, Dan, but if you expect Him to show it, you run the risk of violating the commandment, “Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” So I think that it’s more righteous to say that, if Jesus were alive, He’d forego the flashy display of power and just kack the old Romney square in the honker. But what’s so childish about punching the Old Romney in the face anyway? If you ask me, the Old Romney has it coming. |
DKL, Surely the Lord can be more creative than a sock in the eye and not have to resort to his All-powerful powers. So show me more creativity Mr. DKL. And yes, it is a childish thing to do, something a 7th grader would do. |
Nonsense. Show me one 7th grader who has punched the Old Romney in the face. And why are you faulting me for Jesus’s propensity to kack people square in the honker? (Which, btw, is the nose, not they eye.) |
Dan, if you think Gonzalez’ tenure has been sketchy, what pray tell, would you make of the tenure of Joseph Smith Jr. Or Brigham Young for that matter? The leadership stints of most of our founding fathers were rife with nepotism, favoritism, political character assassination, scandal, several duels, fistfights on the House floor, and other unbecoming behavior, gross administrative mismanagement, graft, incompetence, sex, stupid foreign adventures, and general embezzlement. All leadership, great and small, has had its less than sterling moments. It’s hardly time to start crying that the sky is falling. |
DKL, Mr DKL I remind you to reread your own words wherein you did not specify the honker, but rather the face at large:
As such, Jesus could have, if he so chose, socked him, or honked him. In either case, it is speculative. Now, as far as Old Romney being punched, I really don’t know the guy well enough to know if a seventh grader ever got him good in the face. |
Seth my boy, the difference is that today America leads the world. Yesteryear America was just another cog in the great machine. When the light of the world dims, the sky will actually fall. |
Isn’t the “light of the world” the sun? Yeah, the sky would probably cease to exist if the sun did dim. |
see, I told ya! |
I don’t know, I think its a question for Chicken Little. |