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What makes this kind of thing make sense to me is that this is a fallen world and biological processes constantly go haywire. I don’t believe that everything in nature is as God would have it. I don’t see this phenomenon as essentially different from people being born with mental retardation or physical deformity and I don’t think that it the existence of people with physically ambiguous gender is at all incompatible with the idea that spiritual gender is fixed. |
Devyn, Thanks for this post. Scanning through the wikipedia article was informative and disturbing. I do not know how to easily reconcile our beliefs about eternal and “essential” gender with the out of the ordinary reality that a small portion of the population faces. The simple answer is to say that the resurrection will take care of all this, which it will, but that knowledge isn’t too terribly useful for navigating this mortal life. |
“gender is such a fundamental part of who we are and what the basic tenets of the Gospel are about, that it seems completely against the Gospel that some people would be born with either the wrong gender or an ambiguous gender.” We could say the same thing about mental abilities. Learning to distinguish between good and evil is such a fundamental part of the purpose of mortality that it seems completely against the Gospel that some people would be born without the cognitive ability to learn from mortal experience. And yet we know it happens frequently. We trust that such disabilities are a handicap of mortality only, and that eternal joy will not be impeded. I don’t think the problem is ultimately any different with physical disabilities, including ones related to gender. I agree with you that correct answers may not be obvious. What if you were LDS, and intersexed, and wanting to live the law of chastity, including appropriateness of intimate but not explicitly sexual behavior (however the new BYU honor code words it)? Deciding what that behavior would be is a challenge I am exceedingly glad I do not have to face. |
“If we believe that our spirits resemble our bodies, then how do we account for this?” I actually don’t believe this. My children look like me and my wife because of genetics. They didn’t sort us in heaven by spirit body attributes into a family that would look similar so our bodies and spirits would match like some extra twisted version of Saturdays Warriors. |
Devyn, with respect to gender, right? to clarify Kyle’s comment) |
genuine question: given the church’s stance on gender, how does the church deal with those that are born with both sexual organs? I watched a something on public television about this a couple years ago. It was disturbing to know that they snip some parts, add others and do horrible things to the children/babies–essentially “assigning” gender/sexual identity based on opinion only to get it all wrong. |
When I hear about things like this, I think “life isn’t fair.” I think “these are the times when we leave things in God’s hands and do our job of being Christian.” Every person has a heartache. I hate my own sorrows and trials, but I’m glad I’m not conflicted about my gender or sexuality. I wonder if a person who was raised as a boy, but actually is genetically a girl and struggles, would look at me and think “I’m glad I don’t have her problems.” I just think God is a liberal and that He is in charge and He doesn’t pay much attention to the fine print. Which I have no idea what I meant by that. Oh well. |
Duane Jeffery wrote an article on this topic in Dialogue that’s worth reading. [Link] |
ARJ – I agree the resurrection will take care of it, but it certainly makes it challenging for these people in the meantime. Ardis – now that is a tough question – I guess you have to be celibate… Kyle – I am only talking about gender here. I agree with you on the genetics. I think our spirits are sort of a nebulous looking gendered personage of some sort. |
mfranti – I think that is a key issue. Since the Church is against transgender operations, how do you deal with someone who was born with an ambiguous gender, then the doctors or parents pick a gender only to get it wrong. That poor person cant get an operation to fix the gender or they will not be allowed into the Temple. It would be a very distressing situation I presume. Annegb – as my mission president always told me “everyone goes through their own Gethsemane in their life”. Unfortunately, it seems some peoples are many times worse than others. Yep – life a’int fair in any way, shape or form… |
Jared – thanks for that – I remember reading that article once. It is certainly a compelling read. |
“That poor person cant get an operation to fix the gender or they will not be allowed into the Temple.” this is what I am really getting at. If gender is an essential characteristic, then the individual will know if he/she is male/female. Not a doctor, not the parent, and certainly not the church. Holy cow. this is a loaded issue and one I am sure the church is not willing to deal with. I mean they are just now coming to terms with SSA and the genetics behind that. |
mfranti – you hit it right on – only that person should be the judge of their true gender. Who am I to say that they should not get a sex change operation? It isn’t for me, but neither is voting Republican, but we let them in the Church and even into the Temple. You are right this is a loaded issue and, the Church will probably deal with it sometime in 25 years… |
It was disturbing to know that they snip some parts, add others and do horrible things to the children/babies–essentially “assigning” gender/sexual identity based on opinion only to get it all wrong. May I be allowed to point out that if there were nothing “essential” about sex/gender, it would be impossible for doctors or parents to get this call wrong. They could choose the baby’s sex/gender, impose their cultural sex/gender biases upon said baby as it grows, and end up with an adult who fully identifies with the selected sex/gender. And yet, it apparently doesn’t work that way. |
LL, I’m confused. Are you suggesting that I don’t believe that gender is essential? |
mfranti, I didn’t mean to imply anything about what you believe. I simply found your (IMO unassailable) assertion that gender assignments in cases of ambiguity can be wrong to be a useful club to wield against those who reject essentialism. |
re sex-change surgery. My understanding is that the policy withholding recommends applies to “elective” sex change surgery. I do not know what “elective” means, in this case. |
DavidH – interesting wording. I would guess that elective is anything but what happens to ambiguous children when they are born. So if the gender selected is wrong at birth you are stuck with it at least if you don’t want problems with Church authorities. |
“They didn’t sort us in heaven by spirit body attributes into a family that would look similar so our bodies and spirits would match like some extra twisted version of Saturdays Warriors.” We don’t know that. Genetics may be the mortal/physical tool to make physical bodies match up with the pre-mortal spiritual body. For all we know, your kids could have looked like you in the pre-mortal existance too. We know that our resurrected physical bodies will look like our mortal bodies did in their prime. Reports of disembodied post-mortal spirits (ie, those who have died and are awaiting the resurrection) appearing to mortals indicate that the spirit looks like the physical body did. The apostles and prophets to whom Joseph Smith, George A. Smith and others appeared were recognized for who they were. If so, then it’s also likely that the pre-mortal spirit resembles the post-mortal spirit. And if B=C, and A=C, then A=B. If you look like you did in the premortal existance, and so do your kids, and you look like your kids now, then you looked like your kids then. Now if we didn’t look then like we look now, that’s hard to take. If I didn’t look like me, who did I look like, and why? I can’t imagine looking in a mirror in the premortal existance and seeing someone who isn’t me. |
Bookslinger – I guess the challenge I have is understanding how God could know how many children each person would have with a particular individual given our free agency. If God does know this beforehand, then we are predestined to have x number of children. To me our premortal spirits are more nebulous in shape, but form to our physical appearance once we have a mortal body. Then when we die our Spirit looks like us. For when we were pre-mortal, maybe exact form did not matter but it was all dependent on our personality/spirituality… |
Bookslinger – Which me did I look like in the premortal existence? I don’t believe I’ve looked the same in this life for more than a two year period. I think the restored to you in your prime and no hair on your head will be lost stuff is rhetorical. I’ve never had great hair, and I want it in the next life. When Jesus appeared after his resurrection, he had the prints of the nails and the spear wounds, though his body was made whole without corruption. I believe that spirits and celestial bodies can appear as they need to for us to know or recognize the personage, especially when appearing in a vision. I’ve met people who believe they’ve see a grandparent who wouldn’t even know what their grandparent would have looked like in their prime. I think spiritual matter must be somewhat fluid, or a fine matter gel if you will. It has some solidity on its own, but forms to a container. |
Oh, and regarding genetics as a tool to make you look like your spiritual self: There wouldn’t be any pattern to genetics if it was an effect of how you looked instead of the cause. That is unless, as Devyn pointed out, we don’t have agency. Every hoochie mamma and man slut who has a kid who looks like them out of wedlock would be doing it to fulfill their manifest destiny of genetic posterity. |
The sins of the fathers… The sin of children being born with both male and female parts will clearly be answered on the heads of the fathers. Furthermore, one only need a worthy priesthood holder (possibly an righteous uncle or grandfather as the child’s own father will clearly not be elligeable), perfectly in tune to the Spirit at the time of the child’s being given a name and a blessing to know if the spirit is a male or not — when he blesses that the child will be married in the temple, the one giving the blessing, if he is in fact worthy, should be impressed to know if that promised spouse will be a male or female, and can then surmise (as sasme-sex marriage is an abomination unto the Lord) the spiritual gender of the child, if he is in tune. This will also help to determine whether or not the child will be permitted to hold the priesthood later in life and if he will be able to serve a real two-year mission. After the true gender is revealed, corrective surgery can take care of the rest. |
“If we believe that our spirits resemble our bodies” Do we believe this? Is this written somewhere or do we just get this from ideas like bookslingers that: “Reports of disembodied post-mortal spirits (ie, those who have died and are awaiting the resurrection) appearing to mortals indicate that the spirit looks like the physical body did.” Is it possible that perception of the form of spirits is in the eye of the beholder? Could visitations from spirits be like visions or dreams where we “see” (or perceive somehow) things differently then is physically before us (since nothing is really physically before us when we perceive these things)? I’m not sure about this idea, but to me it makes the most sense. I would love for someone to show me the error of my thinking, but until they do, I’ll continue to believe that spirits in no way resemble the bodies they are in. |
I would love for someone to show me the error of my thinking Ether 3:6 — spiritual finger of Jesus like the physical finger And Joseph Smith’s description of Moroni from his visitation: “I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.” If the bosom wasn’t that of a man, I think Joseph would have left this part out of his description so as not to tempt the weak mind to wander. |
I thought they put the kibash on the “physical deformity is because of parental sin” false doctrine decades and decades ago. I checked out your blog. Did someone at church piss you off? |
SEKIII – Where did you ever come up with the idea that the sins of the parents will be manifest in the children. That type of thinking was fine 500 years ago, but to suggest that any time there was a problem with the kids meant that the parents sinned is ridiculous, judgmental, and spiteful. I hope you were kidding. Clearly you are speaking from the perspective of one who probably has “normal” children or no children at all. As to your examples of seeing Christ’s finger or Moroni, that does not take away from the possibility suggested that Spirits can take whatever form we need to see… |
You are absolutely correct about SEKIII’s line of thinking being ridiculous, judgmental, etc etc, but — unfortunately — I don’t think it is quite as dead/dormant/500-years-ago as you infer. I hope I’m wrong. |
SEKIII is the Aaron Cox of 2007! I welcome him and his parody. |
It does appear you are correct ARJ – by the way, SEKIII and Glenn – I have not seen this line of thinking in my experience in the Church – have you? |
a damn shame. |