Ugh, I think members might object to Joseph Smith being called the “Alpha and Omega” of the religion. That is reserved for deity.

It is very odd to hear Ken Verdoia when they have his voice with an image other than him talking. I’m conditioned to expect him to be doing the narration, not the comentary.

What is the real mountain meadows massacre? I have heard the name before but never really heard the story…anyone?

Daniel P is dropping vocabulary that I can’t follow. The U&T is a didiathingy device? Where are the subtitles?

I like Terryl Givens more and more. He expresses things in a way that makes someone that is listening carefully really stop and think.

I love the testimony of President Hinckley.

I have to admit that I’ve felt the Spirit several times during this program.

I did not know that the Book of Mormon was considered an expensive book at the time it was published. I’m too used to the idea of giving them away to anyone interested without concern for the expense.

Will Bagley has an interesting way of deflecting blame from the mobs. His bias is showing, as is mine I suppose.

For those not on the East Coast…Polygamy is coming soon :)

I say there is mostly balance towards the ‘mormons are wierd’ view instead of a balanced history…anyone else feel this way?

I think that the Nauvoo Expositor episode is being portrayed as the cause of anti-Mormon hatred in Illinois. As if there was no such sentiment before that.

I had to Google Sarah Barringer Gordon as she is getting a lot of air time and seems well informed and insightful. T&S interviewed her a few years ago.

According to T&S, she’s not LDS. I wouldn’t have guessed that at all from her enthusiasm and comments.

Ben,

I was surprised by that as well. It would be interesting to have a list of all those that are speaking, their background, and membership status.

Kathleen Flake: Having many marriages seems the least rational way to satisfy one’s sex drive.

arJ: Ha! I agree.

The second hour seems almost entirely given over to polygamy and mountain meadows massacre, but that’s where most of the curiosity is, anyway.

Whoa! Skip right from Second Manifesto to Short Creek?

I’m not sure that Robin Fox is right about mainstream Mormon’s attitude towards polygamists. I think that “ambivalence” is a mischaracterization. I think that mainstream members resent polygamists on at least one level in that they continue to make us the butt of jokes and to contribute to general misconceptions.

Hey, it made me think of the movie “The Sixth Sense”– we baptize dead people?

What was with all the dark art. Is that the way to acheive balance. Tell something historical about the LDS church but then show dark, black imagery?

I did enjoy the story about Brigham Youngs’s dream of Joseph Smith telling him to listen to the still small voice. I actually had never heard that story before.

The Ken Verdoia show. Certainly he was well-spoken, well-informed, and articulate, but it was a bit jarring to me that we heard more from him than from Richard Bushman and Terryl Givens combined. Perhaps that shows my own biases. Heh.

I would have liked a bit more on nineteenth century polygamy; I was expecting to hear some about Emmeline Wells to balance out the “heartache” story and Freeman discussing her ancestors. I would have cut some from the Massacre coverage, though, not from the fundamentalists portion.

Artistically, I enjoyed the opening segments; it’s hard to create a mood in documentary, and I think Whitney hit what she was aiming at – recapturing and representing some of the religious drama and fervor and mysticism of the Burned-Over District that produced legions of visionaries – not simply Joseph Smith.

Whitney also managed to avoid use of mass-produced Mormon art. Props to that. I was very struck by some of the portraits of Joseph she dug up.

I found Elder Oaks mea culpa over Mountain Meadows to be especially moving.

I missed the first hour and fifteen minutes. But what I did see, I liked a lot.

I’m kind of worried about how people in my ward are going to take it though, after a member of the Bishopric announcing the program in Priesthood opening exercises yesterday and all…

I was a bit surprised to see Ken Clark as a former member. I took a few institute classes from him in Moscow Idaho a few years ago. But not too surprised; he clearly had a lot of issues with Mormon history.

I loved Kathleen Flake’s comparison of Joseph Smith to Henry Ford. In fact, I very much enjoyed everything she had to say. And I was pleased with Sarah Barringer Gordon. No wonder the Wall Street Journal thought the documentary was too positive.

My husband and I both commented on the artwork and the part about dancing. Very nice.

And I had never heard the story of Brigham’s vision of Joseph either. I’d love to know the source for that one.

I think I’d be hard-pressed to find an orthodox Mormon who’s wishing we could return to polygamy. Or at least I couldn’t find many.

Two hours that were well spent.

I was disappointed in tonight’s broadcast. I observed what I feel to be a negative bias towards the Church’s history and early leaders. There were a bunch of errors throughout the segment as well as seemingly authoritative statements (such as Will Bagley’s blaming Brigham) asserting the Church’s controversial beginnings and corrupt leaders.

The producer claimed that this documentary would “shatter stereotypes”, but I believe she failed with the first segment. If anything, it will embolden each side all the more in defending and believing what they previously held to be true.

arj,

Here are the ones I can recall…

1. A picture of Lucy Mack was shown and referenced as Emma
2. Joseph was referred to as our Alpha and Omega
3. It was said that we baptize our dead — somewhat misleading
4. It was suggested that young men must serve missions, implying a sense of coercion that does not exist
5. Brigham Young did not “suddenly” follow Joseph, but instead took a few years to finally convert
6. The film said that Christ visited the Americas during the three days between his death and resurrection, when in fact it was after his resurrection that he made the visit
7. The segment discussing the Saints’ arrival to the Salt Lake Valley shows footage of somewhere (Goblin Valley, perhaps?) that is most certainly not the Salt Lake area

a random John: I watched it on KBYU tonight. Yes, they showed it.

As I said to a friend, I only saw the first half of last night’s installment; I’ll watch the rest from TIVO. I think it’s interesting, and maybe helpful, to see what other people think are the relevant facts of our history. I was a little bit bothered at the plains-crossing segment, though; they only interviewed one pioneer descendant, and she concluded that she couldn’t stay in the Church because her great grandma had set such a high standard of faith. Huh? To use a baseball analogy, it would have been nice to follow that logical screwball with something hittable.

I thought overall it was fair – they covered a lot of ground in a short period of time. A lot was skipped but they hit the high points. I was surprised at the focus on dancing – I thought it was very nice, but dancing was not a real big part of my growing up except for the monthly stake dances – I would hardly call what we did dancing. The one thing that stood out for me was how dedicated the early Saints were – I don’t think I would be that dedicated nor that forgiving after going through what they did.

Seth,

Oh geez Connor, nitpick why don’t ya?

Whether nitpicking or not, they were errors nonetheless. I never indicated that the errors were part of or caused the negative bias in the segment, as you accuse me of doing. They are independent of each other, not conflated as you suggest I argued.

“Thanks for playing, but try again next time.” ;)

One description of the Brigham Young dream can be read at the josephsmith.net site:

Brigham Young dream

Click on the manuscript pages (fourth and third from the left) in the row above the JS painting.

[Page in clerk's handwriting]

Brigham. While sick, and asleep on my pillow, at noon day of the 17th of February 1847. I dreamed that I went to see Joseph. He looked perfectly natural, sitting with his feet on the lower round of his chair, leaning back, in a large Window, in a South West direction. I took him by the right hand and kissed him many times, and said to him, Why is it that we cannot be together as we used to be? You have been from us a long time, and we want your society; and I dont like to be separated from you.

Joseph, rising from his chair, and looking at me with his usual, earnest, expressive, and pleasing countenance replied “It is all right.”

Brigham. I do not like to be away from you.

Joseph. “It is all right; We cannot be together yet; We shall be by & by; but you will have to do without me a while, and then we shall be together again.”

Brigham. I then discovered there was a hand rail between us, Joseph stood by the Window, and to the South West of him it was very light. I was in the twilight, and to the north of me it was very dark; and I said Brother Joseph, the Brethren you know well, better than I do; you raised them up, and brought the Priesthood to us. The Brethren have a great ansciety to understand the law of adoption, or sealing principles; and if you have a word of council for me, I should be glad to receive it.

Joseph stepped towards me, and looking very earnestly, yet pleasantly said, “Tell the people to be humble & faithful, and be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord & it will lead them right. Be careful & not turn away the still small voice, it will teach you how to do & where to go, & it will yield the fruits of the Kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other Spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their Souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife, and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the Kingdom of God. Tell the Brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord they will go right. Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Our Father in Heaven organized the human family, but they are all disorganized in great confusion.”

Joseph then showed me the pattern, how they were in the beginning. This I cannot describe but I saw it, and saw when the Priesthood had been taken from the earth, and how it must be joined together, so that perfect chain from Father Adam to his latest posterity.

Joseph again said “Tell the people to be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and follow it and will lead them just right.”

I found the portrayal of “prophets in bear skins” wandering the countryside as the norm during the early 1800′s amusing.
In reference to the MMM, they said the children were spared because Mormons believe the soul isn’t completely formed until age 8. I’m surprised no one has “nitpicked” on that one yet–unless we believe that (we don’t believe that right?)
I also enjoyed (and concur with) Kathleen Flake’s characterization of Joseph’s theology as a way of helping other members experience what he had–a face to face meeting with God.

Matt W.

Interestingly, Brigham didn’t become President of the Church until a few years after that experience and didn’t become Prophet, Seer, and Revelator (and King too, right?) until decades later.

Matt W.

There are lots of quotes of BY saying he was not a prophet the way the Joseph was. I think that’s part of the reason he remained president of the quorum of the twelve so long.

I agree with what seems to be the predominant view that the program was fairly balanced. Certainly the different commentators demonstrated their bias, and I disagreed with some of the statements (many of which people have already brought up).

One aspect of the program that I didn’t like (admittedly a pretty minor one) was the way in which the various speakers were identified. A lot of the commentators were people I recognized, but not all of them. Identifying people as “Poet,” “Author,” or even “Former LDS Institute Instructor” didn’t seem very helpful in understanding the biases certain people brought to the table. I think the causal viewer might have been confused about where someone like Will Bagley was coming from.

On Connor’s objections

1) ARJ is right; this was a photo of Emma in her sixties.
2) Alpha and Omega _does_ have a specific meaning; it seems to me though that this is the sort of thing that someone not intimately familiar with the culture – like Whitney – could miss. Different languages.
3) This seems to me like the sort of common garbling that usually happens when people are speaking rather than writing. In any case, I’m pretty sure this will be cleared up tonight.
4-6) Ditto. arJ.
7)Actually, this seemed to me appropriate, because it was discussing the folks who settled southern Utah and later got involved in the massacre. A friend of mine is descended from some of them; he told me once that southern Utah in the nineteenth century was a world apart, separated from the somewhat more refined culture of Salt Lake City even as the Mormons of SLC were separated from America as a whole. I got the same impression from Juanita Brooks’s autobiography – the area was weird (in the old nineteenth century sense of the term) even then.

The film said that Christ visited the Americas during the three days between his death and resurrection

I’ve heard that statement floated several times on various blogs and news commentary sites. I still haven’t found the original source of this statement though. Pretty sure whoever said it originally never actually read the Book of Mormon.

#57:

Matt, I don’t have Bagley’s book handy, but I remember some basic points:

After taking leadership of the church as president of the Twelve, BY struggled to understand his role as prophet.
Young had not had the type of spiritual experiences that Joseph Smith had, i.e., speaking with the Lord, visions, etc. There was the question of how Young could lead the church if he couldn’t/didn’t have these types of experiences.

According to Bagley, Young’s dreams settled his doubts about his role as Joseph Smith’s successor.

I recall that Bagley also quotes some of the remarks made by BY regarding his position vis-à-vis Smith, as noted by Kyle M. in comment #60.

For example, when sustained as Prophet, Seer, and Revelator in 1857, BY said that the title “always made me feel as though I am called more than I am deserving of. I am Brigham Young, an Apostle of Joseph Smith, and also of Jesus Christ.” He also said: “I don’t profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser.”

You know, I woke up this morning and thought, “I bet Justin over at Mormon Wasp will post on Brigham’s vision of Joseph.” I just expected it to be at the Wasp and not here.

I like to shake things up.

Re: 69, RJ: I am aware of BYU’s dancing program, having attended that fine institution of higher learning. My comment about the youth dances being the only remaining vestige was made in jest. My apologies :)

Didn’t you all have dance festivals growing up? I only remember one, but we rented the Tacoma Dome and had stake participation from all over the area. It was dumb, but the old people seemed to like it.

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