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I’m thrilled with the program. The minor errors yesterday were more than made up for tonight. This could not have been any more pro-Mormon without losing objectivity. Elder Jensen is awesome. |
Did I mention Elder Jensen is awesome. |
Kyle, what did you think of Elder Jensen? |
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I think Elder Jensen was awesome. |
Oh, and Aaron, You’re awesome, too. |
Bachman talked like he wanted to ensure he’d make it into the final edit. The ploy worked. Believing the Church is not what it claims to be is fine. Leaving the Church because you don’t want your kids to go on missions and risk brushes with death seems a tad melodramatic. I served in Argentina and I don’t remember poisonous frogs in my bedroom. He must have been in Salta. And while excessive bouts of zeal and mindless obedience are all too common among missionaries, I doubt requests from the President for suicide bombings would have been greeted with glee. So Bachman plays the drama queen. But then again, I did have a companion who performed excorcisms, practiced astral projection and believed the president had psychic powers that detected missionary disobedience like an infallible sin-o-meter, so I guess anything’s possible. Aaron B |
The thing that struck me the most was the continuing nostalgia and even deep love for the church that the ex-Mormons expressed. Although I’ve known some ex’s who have gone super anti, it has also been my personal experience (doing less-actives contacts and so on) that many still believe in the church on some level and even those that don’t at all, still miss it and love parts of it. Very interesting. |
I didn’t appreciate Whitney using so many marginalized, disaffected, excommunited, antagonistic, or otherwise unassociated people to define Mormanism. The church works because it doesnt change. The world changes and evolves. The church is an anchor of faith and a firm foundation. I don’t know why these vocal few insist that the church change to accomidate them. How selfish, egotistical, and self important can you get. |
dd9 in #9 writes “The church works because it doesnt change. . . ” With the exceptions of, let’s see, polygamy, polyandry, Blacks and the priesthood, blood atonement, Adam-God, Word of Wisdom interpretation, canonization of the Lectures on Faith, status of Relief Society, view of Blacks in premortal life, healing blessings by women . . . |
ddb9, I’ve always felt it’s pretty clear that while God doesn’t change, His church most certainly does. |
Still, I take ddb9′s point about whose voice was emphasized in this half – we got very brief comments from a neuroradiologist, and Fiona Givens, as our only ‘faithful’ or ‘unconflicted’ women, while temple worship was described only by those who no longer have access to it, and we have scenes of close-knit wards only through observations of Sacrament Meetings as if from the outside. I would have loved to see more “ordinary” LDS people talking about their worship and faith,(even in quick comments) instead of the extraordinary (Stevenson, the Tillerman-Dicks, and Dalrymples). |
Eh, that sounded snide. I loved all three of those stories, I just wanted more. |
I agree about Marlin K. Jensen- he was phenomenal. But then, he has long been in my top five Church folk I would like to do lunch with. His mission conversion story was spot on in depicting the kinds of experiences that root us in the Church. I think most of us inquisitive types are still in the Church because we have had instances where we have taken leaps of faith on inadequate information, and found our faith confirmed in unmistakable ways. |
I also thought Elder Jensen was fabulous. I am glad that the Church used him instead of Elder Packer. I found Elder Packer’s remarks somewhat offensive in describing his talk about the threats to Mormonism. Of course, it may be that I have really never liked him. On the bright side, I really appreciated all of the diverse perspectives. Tau Bachman was a bit melodramatic (not like missionaries are dropping dead by the hundreds), but other than that the rest were very good. |
I respectfully (and understandingly) disagree in a sense; I think Pres. Packer is the most misunderstood of the apostles. He definitely has taken a defensive posture at several points over the years, but the idea that he is the enforcer, as implied by the program, is not an adequate representation of the man. He also happens to be one of the most compassionate and thoughtful of our contemporary Church leaders. In fact, I think I’ll devote an entire blog posting to this discussion sometime soon; read it and see if you feel differently afterward. |
Marlin K. Jensen was a perfect representative for us – he just has a sweetness, sincerity and intelligence about him that is very compelling. I almost felt that Toscano was a foil for Jensen – their personalities seemed to be the most prominent on the show and she definitely expressed some bitterness and criticism towards the church. I had mixed feelings about what she had to say – it was interesting to hear her perspective of the excommunication process. |
Devyn, I actually found Elder Packer’s explanation of his comments to be quite lucid. The more you go down the path of intellectualism, homosexuality and (what was the last one? feminism?), the further you get from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My wife and I enjoyed the documentary. We both felt it sent a pretty good picture of Mormonism at large. I was touched by the one older homosexual gentleman who tried to make his life be what the church wanted and have it fall apart on him because in his heart that’s not who he was. His words were moving. One thing though, about what that gentleman said. He said that there are other kinds of “families”, and not just the father, mother, children type. I thought about that for just a second and then asked the TV (because of course I couldn’t ask him in person), what about God? Can there be any other God besides the God we know? In some things, there really is only one way. My heart goes out to him for having to deal with what he has to deal with, but in regards to the family, there really is only one way, as Elder Jensen explained. |
More about Elder Jensen, he was just at our stake conference to change stake presidents. My wife and I were excited to go see him, but…my wife had an ectopic pregnancy and we were stuck at home. :( I really wanted to meet him (he being liberal and all) :) |
I have to admit, I really preferred the first night. But that’s because it held my interest more, and seemed more focused. Last night was much more scattershot, catching all sorts of stuff. But what they presented, they presented well. Elder Jensen was great, Teryl Givens was great, I wish they’d had more of Professor Gordon (even though it didn’t cover her interests), more of Darius Gray, and maybe some Jan Shipps. I was surprised (although happy) that Richard Bushman got so much time in the second half; I would have expected him to be more strongly represented in the Joseph Smith section. But any chance to hear Brother Bushman is a chance I’m glad to take. |
I had the impression Bachman was trying to say the most outrageous thing that would still seem credible enough to make the cut. I’m a herpetologist, and I’m not aware of any “poison spitting” frogs in Argentina (or anywhere else for that matter). There are poison arrow frogs in South America, but they secrete toxins in the skin, not spit from the mouth, and none of them get as far south as Argentina. Frogs in Argentina are mostly bufonids (the same family as our North American toads), which should be quite harmless, unless perhaps you decide to put a toxic species in your mouth. I suppose perhaps he could have been just repeating local or missionary folklore about the local herpetofauna. |
I have to agree that Tom “my life was in constant danger” Bachman is a fool. The problem that I have is that it would have been so simple to have someone tell the Helen Whitney that his experience, as he described it, is hardly typical. At least some basic fact checking should have been done. There are no crocodiles anywhere near Argentina. I don’t think that “poison spitting toads” even exist. Only had muddy, parasite-infested water to drink? “I won’t allow my kids to be put in a situation where their lives are in constant danger.” It is disappointing that this garbage is taken seriously. More so when there was no effort to present a more accurate description of an LDS mission, what is a huge collective experience for such a large percentage of the membership. |
Regarding Bachman- my mission had significant Rambo elements to it as well, but I don’t recall Bachman describing his own conversion to Christ at any point. Come to think of it, I don’t recall hearing any of the “dissidents and exiles” address this central foundation of our faith. Instead, we heard a lot of “I was deeply moved by the temple experience,” or “My mission touched me in a profound way, and made me feel like I was participating in something greater than myself,” and so on. I realize I don’t know the full story of these people’s experiences, but I don’t see how anyone can build on that kind of an emotional or aesthetic foundation and make it through the heat of the day, so to speak. |
Dan Ellsworth, I agree with you on the point about the lack of discussion about Jesus Christ. It just goes to show why the General Authorities keep focusing so frequently and so strongly on Jesus Christ in every Conference, because we so easily forget who we are following. |
Okay, even if the poison-spitting frogs are far-fetched and crocodiles don’t get to Argentina (though we had crocodiles in Venezuela), the truth is that missionaries do sometimes die on their missions. One of the saddest days of my life was learning that a missionary who had worked with my dad had died while rebuilding a town in Guatemala post earthquake 1975. Yesterday, Bruce and I ate lunch with our missionaries, and I was very aware that some might find themselves in physical danger. Several are headed to Africa. Right now, the places they’re headed to are quite safe, but things happen. And remember that what an interviewee said (or failed to say) is usually due to an editor’s or a director’s choice. Every interview lasted at least an hour, some of them many hours. The director and editor decide which soundbites help the flow of their program and sustain its energy. If all you heard of Darius Gray was “John Taylor said that blacks were Satan’s representatives on earth,” you might presume that he’s got some real bitterness. Not so. Knowing Darius, I am guessing that MOST of what he said in his interview was faith-building. But that segment apparently needed to introduce racism in 19th Century Mormonism to set the stage for experiences in Africa and for the priesthood revelation. Somebody decided that the MMM should get eighteen minutes, and somebody decided that the race issue would be a sub-point under the heading of “accommodation.” |
I thought the documentary made us look like mindless sheep. Which, unfortunately, is probably pretty accurate. Open your eyes people, there is more to life than what you think you “know”. |
Margaret, My understanding is that you worked with Darius Gray. Have you spoken to him about his feeling about the excerpt that was selected? |
josephsmithjr (26),
We’ll take that to heart if you promise to as well. ;-) |
Mac–yes. At length. He lost sleep over it. (Meaning he lost sleep over the excerpt selected, not over working with me.) |
The John Taylor quote was jarring, probably because I didn’t know he had those ideas as well. |
Did anyone else get the feeling that there was too much “exceptionalism?” I understand that it was the central theme, but was no real representation of quotidian Mormon life to give it context. I don’t know that a Mormon would fight back the spitting poison frogs differently than anybody else, but the orthodox certainly live their daily lives in a different fashion. |
Is the death rate among missionaries higher than the death rate among American males, ages 19-26? If not, there is no reason to claim that missionaries are putting their lives in danger by serving missions. Bachman was just being the silly clown that he is (much like commenter #26). |
Is the death rate among missionaries higher than the death rate among American males, ages 19-26? Oops. Females, too. |
I too got the impression that Bachman was a drama queen. My mission in Brazil was dangerous from time to time, but give me a break. I’ll bet the full segment he recorded included tales of fighting off crowds of ninjas. |
The real question is whether or not Helen Whitney bought this line. And the obvious comparison to islamist suicide bombers. |
I thought they gave Tal enough rope to hang himself with in the eyes of LDS viewers. I have no idea what non-LDS viewers would think. |
Ellsworth (34), Please don’t dismiss the idea of fighting off ninjas so glibly. I served a mission in Japan, and unprovoked hand-to-and combat with ninjas was many missionaries’ worst fear. |
Yeah, I agree. But it seems in conflict with what the objective of the documentary. Couldn’t they find someone more representative? Do all missionaries need to be typified as capable of suicide bombings? |
Two of my companions had knives pulled on them; one of them was shot at; and my companion and I were shot at once. One companion was injured in a natural gas explosion while heating water for a baptism, another missionary was run over by a bus while trying to catch it. None of those were killed. No poisonous frogs though in the part of Mexico I served. |
The dangers missionaries face can take many forms. During the first couple of months in Korea (before I understood enough of the language to participate meaningfully), I was convinced I was going to die of boredom. Or of a virulent form of prolonged jet lag. Then there are problems here in the US. We were scheduled to feed the missionaries on Easter. We had a part-member couple with us, and we waited, and waited, and waited until we got a call from them. They weren’t going to be able to make it–some idiot pulled his car in front of the missionaries on their bikes, and one of them hit the car and wound up in the emergency room. |
I had forgotten he had mentioned crocodiles. American crocodiles are indeed restricted to the Carribean area, and in South America are found only in Venezuela and probably small areas of surrounding countries. Aside from the Buenas Aires Zoo, there wasn’t a crocodile within a couple thousand miles. Specttacled caimans can be found in some areas of northern Argentina. That species is a relatively small member of the alligator family and (unlike crocodiles) is harmless to humans. The spectacled caiman is smaller and even less dangerous than the relatively benign American alligator we have in the southeastern US. I suppose we can give him misidentifying a caiman and uncritically accepting folklore about frogs, but it is still a stretch to suggest that he was in any danger from the local herpetofauna. After all, millions of Argentinians live their lives quite calmly in the presence of frogs and caimans. For that matter, alligators and frogs can be found in my town here in Louisiana, and I guess I forgot to be frightened. The story of being terrorized by poison-spitting frogs and crocodiles is about as credible as if he had told us about fire-breathing dragons and crocodiles in the British Columbia Vancouver Mission. Something of an irony, considering how he was going on about how he couldn’t accept the credibility of the church origins. |
Tom (32, 33): Elder Ballard addressed this question in October Conference, 1989 (following the death of two Elders in Bolivia):
(M. Russell Ballard, “Duties, Rewards, and Risks,†Ensign, Nov 1989, p 33.) I don’t know if Elder Ballard’s numbers control for underlying health and lifestyle (i.e., is the death rate he cites for all males in that age cohort or just those who could have passed a missionary physical in the preceding two years and who didn’t drink, use illegal drugs, etc.) My memory tells me that Elder Ballard has made such a claim more recently, but I couldn’t find it. |
We should start a new thread called “Fact-checking Tal Bachman.” |
I agree that they didn’t use enough of the common mormon. While the Ivy league, home schooled children story was heart touching as pertaining to the terminally ill daughter, all I could think of was how wierd a large family of home schooled children must appear to non-mormons. I don’t want that idea to be the world’s view of the typical mormon family. I went to public school, as did all of my siblings. I have 3 siblings that attended ivy league schools, I have another sibling that is currently getting a Phd, I have a law degree. I say this not to boast, but to state that there are all sorts of average mormons who have excelled, and I wish the program would have focused on them. I also found Toscano to be the worst contributor to the program. I didn’t find it hard to watch her talking about being excommunicated. It became readily apparent that she #1 Doesn’t understand that being excommunicated is part of the repentance process and that the High Council members who were shaking her hand wanted to help her out. #2 I think that a husband should have the RIGHT to decide who dresses his deceased wife. If he wants to exclude his sister-in-law that is something that he should be more then entitled to do, and Toscano being offended by this just shows that she has a bone to pick. |
i loved the tillerman -dick family.. how is the daughter doing? i hope she is well. i was looking to see if they had a family web site , but i couldn’t find one… i loved this documentry |