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None of the above. I would rely on prayer alone at that point. But that’s just me. |
Here’s a question: Assuming the LDS Church is the “one true church” does God look more favorably on the CoC because they share their origins with the LDS or less favorably because the were in the true church and left? How does that compare with your run of the mill protestant denomination that was never a part of the restoration? |
I believe that Veazy is capable of receiving revelation in his capacity as president of his church. God cares about the LDS and CoC alike, and it strikes me as wrong-headed to suppose that God is unwilling to offer guidance to CoC leaders who are earnestly seeking to bring their followers closer to Christ. I agree entirely with this. I feel the same way about the Pope and his stewardship for guiding Catholics to Jesus. The difference becomes priesthood authority to perform required ordinances. |
I don’t dispute that he receives revelation- I’m just indifferent on the matter. |
The leadership of the LDS church shows a good deal of warmth toward The Community of Christ, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (i.e. the “Strangites,” who don’t use a capital “d” or a hyphen), The Church of Christ Temple Lot(Bickertonites), and other groups which arose from the 1844 succession crisis (despite delays in their formal organizations, etc.). This is not always evident on the part of the LDS membership, however. As most know, the dedication of the Nauvoo Illinois Temple took place on the anniversary of the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. Traditionally, a formal service is always held on that day at the Smith Family Cemetery in Nauvoo, which is owned by the Community of Christ. Given the events of the day, President Hinckley was invited to participate in that service by Grant McMurray, who was then the president of the Community of Christ. I’ve met McMurray, and he’s a very warm, pleasant man. This cemetery service is generally attended by more LDS than Community of Christ members, despite being “run” by the Community of Christ. On this particular occasion, attendance was particularly high because of the visitors in town for the temple dedication. When President Hinckley arrived, the crowd respectfully parted like the Red Sea for Moses. When McMurray arrived, however, there was no such courtesy. He had a very difficult time passing through the crowd, having to repeatedly ask people to please let him pass. Part of this must be attributed to the fact that the LDS in the crowd instantly recognized Hinckley, while they didn’t know McMurray. Given the circumstances, however, there should actually have been some coordinated effort to make sure McMurray (without whom, the ceremony wouldn’t have taken place) was treated with the courtesy befitting his comparable office. |
I think it’s also useful to make a distinction between priesthood and prophecy, the which is a sort of subset between the classic Old Testament distinction between the priest and the prophet. Prophecy, scripturally, is among the gifts of the spirit and thus requires no formal ordination or hierarchical position. We’ve too often conflated these distinctions in our tradition by using the word ‘prophet’ as shorthand for the presiding high priest of the Melchizedek priesthood. |
If we are to take our claim seriously, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true church on the earth, than I think we must conclude that other sects lack the necessary authority, however enlightened or well-meaning they are. That’s part of the audacious claim of Mormonism. I therefore agree with Dan — if we believe that only the LDS Church has the priesthood, then a prayer of faith would be better than any blessing by another ecclesiastical figure. Simply put, those wouldn’t be priesthood blessings. I hope that doesn’t come off as rude; I think it’s just part of the Church’s singular claim to legitimacy. Similarly, a statement by another religious figure (President of another church, preacher, Pope, etc.) wouldn’t be revelation, even if it was completely in harmony with the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ. It’s an issue of authority. The same would be true of a Papal Encyclical or if I issued a statement on behalf of the Church. So from an LDS perspective, I would even disagree that President Veazy is entitled to revelation in the capacity as head of his church. I recognize that the Mormon Church doesn’t have a monopoly on communication with God, but it does have a claim as the One True Church of Christ. Without the authority as Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, I wouldn’t consider any announcement by a leader of another church to be revelation. |
I think there’s a difference between “Priesthood Authority”, and “The Priesthood”. To baptize, perform ordinances, etc. I don’t believe that authority comes from your “Priesthood Lineage”. That authority comes through the keys which are held by the Prophet, and then delegated down through the organization of the church. How did John the Baptist get his authority then? I don’t know for sure, but I suspect either a) the Church was established in some small form at the time, or b) God Himself or another angel gave John the Baptist his keys to perform Baptisms. There are even some evidences in Matthew that he may have been endowed. I need to research that one further however. Those of Levitical lineage do not have to be set apart to become Bishops. Yet, they cannot practice as Bishop until they are called and given Authority to do so through the Church Organization through the Priesthood Keys. Was the CoC’s revelation inspired? I think this is different from the Priesthood – anyone can gain inspiration. Anyone can prophecy. I think you have a point that it may have even been for the benefit of the Church he leads over. I don’t think there’s any way he could gain inspiration for the world however, nor God’s Church which we belong to. That is the duty, and calling of the Prophet and President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, or Gordon B. Hinckley. He and he only holds those keys, and it is his responsibility to lead in that capacity. |
Peter, Otherwise, if we take your statement at face value, nobody else can even get a personal answer to prayer. I don’t think that’s what you intend to suggest. |
Peter: If we are to take our claim seriously, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true church on the earth, than I think we must conclude that other sects lack the necessary authority, however enlightened or well-meaning they are. This is an extremist position that assumes far more than the church actually asserts. The doctrine asserts that all churches at the time of the restoration were in a state of utter apostasy, such that a total restoration of authority was required. Given this, we can restate the penultimate question of this post as follows: Suppose (hypothetically) that the LDS church ceased to exist starting tonight. Would another complete and total restoration be required? Or would only a partial restoration be required? If it is possible that only a partial restoration would be required, then it is possible that priesthoods in other Joseph Smith based restoration faiths have some modicum of effectiveness. Furthermore, there is nothing mutually exclusive about an LDS prayer of faith and a blessing or ordinance from another church; you can do both. The tone of the two responses dealing with the blessing question seem to express an aversion to participating in such an ordinance given by a member of another church, as though they are somehow faith denying. Insofar as the blessing or ordinance in that church reflects some aspect of goodness or godliness, it is edifying regardless of the authority. This is true even if they are no substitute for the ordinances as we practice them. So if you’re wounded on the battle field, and there are no LDS priesthood holders around, it is, I believe, not inappropriate to accept a a blessing from your chaplain. And frankly, I think that it’s a bit weird how Mormon’s fixate on exclusive authority. |
DKL, And frankly, I think that it’s a bit weird how Mormon’s fixate on exclusive authority. Could you expand on this? I don’t think it is that weird given the restoration narrative from the first vision to the aaronic priesthood to Kirtland. There is a focus on authority there with an implication of exclusivity. Now the questions being raised here about exclusivity of LDS vs CoC authority are interesting, but I don’t see the Mormon vs non-Mormon thing as that weird. |
arj, the authority issue with Mormon/non-Mormon and LDS/CoC are two entirely separate issues. The penultimate question of this post (about LDS/CoC authority) relates to the possibility of lingering residual authority in the CoC church. Regarding the issue of Mormon vs non-Mormon authority: our LDS authority-claim can be viewed two ways. First, we can view our LDS authority claims as something that makes our ordinances genuine in contrast to the ordinances of other religions, which are basically counterfeits — bad copies of the original article. This view was doubtless more popular in the past than it is now (cf. the swipes taken at protestants in the pre-1990 temple ceremony). But, as we see in this thread, this exclusionary view of LDS authority still has a lot of draw to many Mormons. This is what I find surprising and weird. This approach to LDS authority seems to bleed into the take on the LDS/CoC authority question, such that the possibility of lingering residual authority is rejected out of hand on the basis that our authority precludes theirs. Second, our LDS authority claim can be viewed as something that augments the power of the ordinances, so that the ordinances of other religions are still valuable and efficacious, but just not as efficacious as our own. For example, a non-Mormon wedding is still a wedding, it just lacks some elements that we find to be doctrinally significant in our theology. I think of non-Mormon ordinances in this light, insofar as they actually lead people to God. There still remains something uniquely efficacious about LDS ordinances, but (again) it’s an augmenting factor more than an exclusionary factor. |
I tend to agree with DKL – we know that the original founders of the COC had the priesthood and I don’t believe they were actually excommunicated from the LDS Church (someone correct me if I am wrong), therefore, they do have the Priesthood today in some form. DLK brings up a great point on that and I would prefer to have a blessing from Veazy, but if he were not available, I would settle for the Pope. We know that LDS women have given blessings for the sick in the past (in fact it was common practice in early Utah), therefore, any worthy person can bless the sick regardless of if they have the priesthood… |
As an interesting aside, even if one accepts that the Community of Christ holds a continuing priesthood lineage, one could challenge the legitimacy of their presidency, given that neither Grant McMurray nor Stephen Veazy are descendants of Joseph Smith. Obviously, the CofC no longer teaches that this is necessary, but the fact remains that for most of its history, that church has taught the primacy of the Smith line. Mind you, I don’t say this with any ill will toward McMurray or Veazy. I met Grant McMurray a few years ago, and was truly impressed with his warmth and humility. I was very sad to hear of the personal difficulties which led him to resign his office. |
I see no other logical answer to the question other than to state that anyone who has a valid priesthood lineage holds the priesthood, save for the commission of any serious sin that would invalidate their ability to hold the priesthood. So yes, Joseph Smith III and every one of the descendants of Joseph Smith who has headed up the RLDS/CoC church had and has a measure of priesthood; James Strang and those who followed him to Lake Michigan, and who still exist in Wisconsin and Missouri have a measure of the priesthood. Those to whom keys were committed by John Taylor in 1886 and who already held the priesthood and passed it down their lineage down to this present day in the fundamentalist churches also hold the priesthood. I realize this is not a popular view, and one that will likely prompt all manner of discontent and ill feelings toward me. Note that I did not say these groups held every little bit of priesthood or all the keys. But priesthood in some measure they do hold. Consider for a moment whether the possibility exists for the Priesthood to exist and operate outside of the church. Most people would say “no way!” But the priesthood was restored before the church was organized. The modern restoration of the priesthood predated the restoration of the church. |
Mormon theology seems to suggest that there are at least two kinds of priesthood authority—that which comes directly from deity, and that which is delegated from the president of the high priesthood of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We tend to collapse the two into one, but the first seems to be a metaphysical issue, while the latter is an administrative issue. When I had my name removed from the records of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I no longer held any priesthood authority that had been delegated by the president of the church. As such, I no longer hold any sort of authority to carry out priesthood functions within that church. I don’t pretend to know (neither am I particularly concerned, actually) whether I retained any sort of authority from the LDS deity. There are certainly those who argue that an exit from the LDS church does nothing in regard to this aspect of the priesthood, based on the kind of reasoning Ben There gives in #15. |
I am curious if in the other sects from the succession controversy if Sydney Rigdon or the others passed down the keys of the Presidency and Church that Joseph Smith was bestowed and bestowed upon them. I’m wondering if those keys have been kept, and if they are still passed on today. Is there any chance that 2 churches could hold the same keys to the Priesthood? I’m genuinely curious. |
And, if you were in a pinch, who would you rather receive a priesthood blessing from: A Lutheran Bishop? or a Southern Baptist Leader? or President Veazy? Maybe I’m just superstitious, but my money is on Veazy. I’ve been thinking about this for the past day and here’s my answer. I do believe that our church does have the priesthood authority to give blessings. However, I believe that the faith of the individuals giving and receiving the blessings are a crucial importance of blessings. If you look at a blessing as, a special prayer to God then if I needed a blessing and the only people available were a Southern Baptist leader, President Veazy or a Lutheren Bishop, I would pray that the Spirit would guide me to ask the one who has the most faith. I also hope that the Spirit would guide me as to what to do in the situation also. I know that the Priesthood keys only exist in this church, however I totally believe that Mormons do not have a monopoly on faith and God answers my earnest prayers just as much as he answers the earnest prayers of someone who isn’t Mormon. God loves each and everyone of his children, not just the ones who are LDS. Because of this, I believe that if I were in a fix and needed a blessing or a prayer in my behalf I feel that the more people praying for me, no matter their faith, the better. |
16 Nick, Building on your experience, I would note that when a man is excommunicated from the church, and later wishes to rejoin the church, he is not re-ordained to the priesthood, nor is he re-endowed, or re-anything except re-baptised. The church’s view is that when one is ex’d, they lose their rights to EXERCISE their priesthood (at least within the church and to perform ordinances recognized by the church), but not necessarily that that man has lost his priesthood altogether (though this is the popular misunderstanding). Keys and priesthood are not the same thing. Gordon B. Hinckley and I hold the same amount of priesthood, however, according to the church, the keys he holds are delegated only to certain individuals and only during times when that person is functioning in the office that uses those keys. If you work as a temple sealer, you have been delegated use of sealing keys, but once you are no longer a sealer, you are believed to “give those keys back” just as if you were returning a rental car. That said, the old who holds all keys does also have the authority to pass them on, if he so chooses. Joseph Smith is known to have done this, as is John Taylor, and maybe others. |
Ben There, With regard to excommunication being a ban on exercising the priesthood, rather than removal of it, do you have a source on that? I’m not saying you’re wrong, but merely that I’m interested in what you base that on. |
20 Nick, I did not mean to imply you were excommunicated, only that it was an additional instance in which similar results would imply. My apologies for my woeful failure to communicate clearly. WRT your second paragraph, I base my interpretation on the Church Handbook of Instructions, which states in part: “Endowed persons who were excommunicated and later readmitted by baptism . . . are not ordained to priesthood offices or endowed again, since all priesthood and temple blessings held at the time of excommunication are restored through the [restoration of blessings] ordinance. Brethren are restored to their former priesthood office, except the office of bishop or patriarch.” Notice that this speaks not of conferal of the priesthood, but of ordination to priesthood offices. No mention is made at all of the actual conferal of priesthood needing to happen again. And as we know, confering of the priesthood is different than ordaining to an office within the priesthood (at least it is since DOM “fixed” this after several decades of combining the ordinances). Also interestingly, the CHI states that for persons who request their names be removed from church records, their priesthood is taken away (“name removal . . . cancels the effects of baptism and confirmation, withdraws the priesthood held by a male member, and revokes temple blessings.”), but this is not explicitly stated as a consequence of excommunication. Hmmmmm….. |
20 Nick, I dug around some more and found that were you to be rebaptised, the process on your end is essentially the same as for an excommunicant. The back-end paperwork that gets flung around from bishop, to SP, to GAs is a bit different, but the end result for you is the same: rebaptised, wait a year, petition for restoration of blessings, receive restoration of blessings at the hands of a GA. Oddly, this seems to imply that your priesthood was not actually removed, but they do explicitly say it is. I wonder if the actual “restoration of blessings” ordinance varies depending on why one is receiving it. That, I have absolutely no knowledge of. |
No need to apologize, Ben. I just wanted to set the record straight, in case that was what you were thinking. Very interesting! Thanks for the details, Ben There. The distinction actually makes sense to me, since name removal can have very different motivations, and very different attitudes, compared to excommunication. In my case, name removal was a very conscious choice, withdrawing honorably from covenants that I knew I was no longer willing to keep. I had not violated those covenants in any way to subject myself to church discipline, but I had made decisions regarding my life, which would involve behavior incompatible with membership in the LDS church, let alone those promises. Excommunication, on the other hand, is not an honorable withdrawal, but rather the consequence of open (and generally unrepentant) violation. Not to threadjack, but here’s a related policy question. As you note, name removal “revokes temple blessings.” I’ve been curious what effect this has on a marriage sealing, at least where the still-LDS spouse is concerned. (I realize the children retain any and all blessings associated with being born in the covenant, etc.) It’s extremely unlikely that I will ever choose to be rebaptized, but what happens when my ex-wife finds the man of her dreams? Does she have to obtain a cancellation of the earlier temple marriage sealing, before she can be sealed to another man? I’m suspecting not, but I’m curious what the official word is. |
Ben There, It is my understanding that what John Taylor did or did not do is not very well documented, yet you keep talking about it like it is well established fact. Do you have any references that indicate it as so? I’ve seen the Quinn presentation in which he says that all accounts of the occasion come at least 20 years after the fact and seem rather, um, convenient. |
24 arJ, I’m not particularly interested in arguing the merits of any particular claim to keys or priesthood authority, but I do stand by my original statement that such persons as were involved in that arrangement “hold the priesthood”. Just as does anyone in any of the other Restoration churches that has a correct priesthood lineage back to Joseph Smith, who of course received the priesthood at the hands of John the Baptist. I however, do not and cannot sanction those who claim to have received their priesthood from some other source, such as a newer angelic restoration, as do some fundamentalists and other fringe Mormons. I also believe that the priesthood can be lost as a result of commiting priestcrafts, and so I would be very uncomfortable saying that I think Warren Jeffs, for example, holds true priesthood, given his wicked and abominable practice of priestcrafts in the name of the Lord. The 1886 accounts will be in dispute just as will be the legitimacy of anyone who claimed to be Joseph Smith’s rightful successor. The mere fact that Brigham Young did not ascend to be president of the church for three years after Joseph’s death, and that a public vote of church members was held to choose between the leadership claims of the Qo12 and Sidney Rigdon, is a clear indicator that — once again — everything was not always clear cut and easy to sort out. And none of this should imply that someone with a competing successor claim did not possess true priesthood. I think even the LDS church might be willing to be somewhat charitable in this arena, as I have never heard them explicitly state that Emma apostatized by joining the RLDS church as led by her son. Even as late as 1860, BY stated that he believed JS3 would come forward to take his father’s place at some time. |
23 Nick, CHI says that in your case, “the sealing blessings of the innocent spouse or children are not affected”. To me this indicates that somehow, your ex-wife is still under some sort of blessing associated with the sealing that you and she were joined under. To me, this implies that she would still need to seek a cancellation of the sealing if she wishes to be sealed to another man. A quick review of the handbook as it relates to cancellations and clearances does not seem to make any special exemption for a woman who is sealed to someone who is no longer a member of the church, for whatever reason. I’m no expert in the finer details of these sorts of deep questions, though. Maybe someone more knowledgable than I can chime in? |
#25: #26: |
I think my experience can contribute to some of Nick’s questions. Several years ago, my wife had her name removed from the records of the church. However, my official records still show a sealing to her. I would imagine that the opposite is true–if a man has his name removed, the sealing of his wife and children would also still remain valid. |
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