I agree in general. I wouldn’t presume to tell people when to have or not have kids, or how many to have or not have, but it is incumbent on all of us (working or students) to budget, and live within that budget. For some people–students and non-students–the money won’t stretch far enough, in which case, the welfare system is there as a safety net. But where the schooling is valuable enough to the student, the student should borrow against his or her future earning potential first.

What I have absolutely no patience for are people who use welfare and then, when they’re on their feet, decry it as evil and socialistic, explaining that they got off of it.

Summary: welfare is there, available for when it’s necessary. I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with accepting it to get by. I do think there’s something wrong with using it so that a person can spend money on wants, however.

I completely agree with you Devyn. When I lived in Richmond, I was working full time, and going to school full time, all with 2 callings. There was even a time when I lost my job and we were without employment for about 6 months. My whole marriage I have refused to let the government pay for my family - I feel that to be my responsibility. We have lived very frugally at times, pinching every penny we could. My wife has gotten very good at using coupons to reduce our food budget. My wife and I were very jealous when we would go over to others houses and they would make nicer meals, have nicer baby toys, and more, all because they took welfare. Now, I’m making a lot more money and don’t have to worry as much, yet I found out recently that here in Utah people still get more for their groceries on welfare than I spend in a month (almost twice the amount!). I strongly feel that if one really needs the money, they should go to family first, then the church. I have more faith in the Church than the government that only the money that is truly needed will be given out. This is very frustrating for me, a tax-paying citizen - I think it is our responsibility as citizens to use the welfare system sparingly.

Why limit the critique to just students who use WIC? Why not also decry those who use Stafford loans or Pell grants to get through school? Those are publicly subsidized, and as long as we are bemoaning handouts, let’s include those. Higher education is already subsidized to such an extent that it is almost funny to think of some deluded soul who assumes he is paying his own way. Anybody who attends grad school at a public institution already has his hands buried pretty deeply in the pockets of his fellow citizens. And a student at a private school relies heavily on the generosity of those who contribute to the school’s endowment.

Let’s also go beyond students and criticize everybody who buys a home using an FHA loan, or who starts a business with an SBA loan. Sure, they need to pay the loans back, but the interest is subsidized by other taxpayers, and it costs the treasury a lot more to pay down the interest on an FHA loan that it does to provide milk and diapers to grad students.

Devyn

Perhaps the problem is with all of the pressure in Mormonism to start having kids the instant you get married, regardless of your financial circumstances. Am I off base on this? Should I be frustrated or am I just jealous that I did not “milk the system” when I was in graduate school…

You should be frustrated if later on that couple derides the system they just took advantage of, if they deride others for living on WICs when they could just as easily live more frugally. From my perspective, I really don’t care who needs federal assistance. It is there for anybody, and everybody, to use. But if you use it and later on when you make $200k and you undermine efforts to keep the social welfare from others, well, then I’ve got problems with you (not you personally, Devyn, but the individual who does this). You’re not milking the system. It is actually there for you to use.

Now you bring up a point about whether or not one actually needs the system, or could people get by by simply living a simpler life. The social programs of our country are not designed to answer those kinds of questions, but to simply provide. Those kinds of questions should be asked by the individuals themselves. If they choose to take advantage of it, that’s their choice. They may have to answer for their choices later on.

Mark IV,

Why not also decry those who use Stafford loans or Pell grants to get through school? Those are publicly subsidized, and as long as we are bemoaning handouts, let’s include those.

I would understand your concern about Pell Grants, as that is basically free money, but Stafford Loans, though regulated by the federal government to have lower interest rates, are loans, and not free money. Students are required to pay them back. In fact, students cannot even get out of paying them through bankruptcy except in extreme cases. Stafford Loans also come through private lenders, and not the government itself. The government just regulates the interest rate and pays for interest during school time.

Why I will never ever live in Utah again.

I’m not sure how grad students in my ward pay for their lifestyle, but they live pretty well-much better than I did in grad school. All of them who are married have two to three children and none-I’m not exagerating-of the respective wives work, at least the families of whom I’m aware. They drive late model cars and live in townhomes or single family homes. Until I read this post I had assumed they are paying for school like I did-working, scholarships and the inevitable mountain of student loan debt. It had not occurred to me that they would engage in the reckless, irresponsible behaviour that is the hallmark of welfare queens/kings, i.e. having children with no appreciable income, living beyond one’s means with the expectation the government would fill in the gap.

My wife and I regularly have these grad students over for big dinners on the assumption they don’t get to eat like that regularly, especially during the holidays. We also regularly give them clothes our kids have outgrown. (we’ve been blessed financially, so these are nice clothes, imo. They were at least good enough for our kids.) We also pay some of the wives for piano lessons. Some of them even have the temerity to hire my teenage son to mow their yards. Talk about chutzpah-using welfare dollars to have your lawn mowed. (Actually that money goes to my son’s missionary fund, so it may be some of the best use of taxpayer money ever imagined.)I may have to rethink my assumptions as to their penury.

Actually, I’m not sure it should matter to me. What they do to finance their lifestyle is up to them, not me. In my experience these putative welfare kings/queens have been uniformly pleasant and fun to have over and interact with. Plus, my kids love to play with their infant and toddler children. And, in my limited experience, these putative welfare kings/queens have served in the ward, when asked. On that score they are not much different than the general membership: some magnify their callings, some are mediocre and some are lousy.

Last winter I did some pro bono work for a recent convert who lives in public housing. We met on a bitterly cold February night to discuss her case. I asked how she was holding up with the cold in her apartment. She replied the cold was no problem because she kept her apartment very warm. Thinking about my $900.00 monthly heating bill, I said it must cost a fortune to keep even a modest apartment very warm. She notified me she did not pay for utilities, so keeping her apartment warm was no problem. In fact she did not even think about how much it cost to allow her and her 6 kids to walk around in shorts and t-shirts in the middle of winter in her public housing townhome. Who knew she would fit in so well with LDS grad students?

Like Devyn S. above, my wife and I committd the nearly unpardonable sin of waiting until we could afford to have children w/o having to resort to welfare before we had actually had kids. (w/ only 3 kids, we’re also part of that sinful trend of smaller LDS families.) It strikes me as funny to the point of hilarious to think of some of these grad students as welfare queens/kings, but if the anecdotes above are true, that is exactly what they are.

I once became aware of a medical student and wife (with kids) who were using food stamps to purchase milk. I think they were also on medicaid. I wasn’t sure what to think of the whole thing. I don’t have super strong feelings about what they are doing. Frankly, we are advised to avoid debt - and this may be a means of doing so.

Well looks like I hit a nerve with this one. Good - I wanted to get different perspectives on this and first, I am not judging their choice of when to have kids. I really don’t care. I am judging their use of the welfare system when we are told to be self supporting. In the cases I know of, the joke is that they “live like lawyers (dentists, etc.) while in school, then live like students afterward…” My issue is if they really need the extra income, then why doesn’t someone work or take out extra loans? It seems very presumptuous to take welfare just because it is easy.

I should caveat that cases like Nick’s and others mentioned above are exceptions from the experiences I have seen.

rbc - your experiences sound similar to mine. What has bothered me is that my wife and I were often condemned for not having children by these same individuals. I really don’t care when people have kids, just make sure you are not a burden on others financially and don’t condemn those who make choices different from your own.

Seth R - you are missing the whole point. NOTHING is free - we all pay for it in taxes. It is very naive to assume that just because it is free there is not a cost somewhere. That is why my taxes in Massachusetts are so high, I pay for these social programs. I also disagree with your comments that there is little rhetoric from the Church Authorities about avoiding government assistance. I remember hearing several times that we should only use these programs when it is needed, not just because we can.

Furthermore, how do you know how poor someone is anyway?

I’ve seen plenty of poor folks. And guess what? They often don’t look any different from anyone else.

The standard of living in America is such that poverty is darn near invisible. The bums on the street corner are rare exceptions. Most poor people, you couldn’t place in a supermarket checkout line.

As for driving the “late model cars,” you know, it’s not like they own those cars. They are making payments on them. When they default, the car will be repo-ed. Now, the decision to buy a new vehicle was maybe not wise, but that’s more an issue of being financially un-savvy rather than manipulative and unethical.

Besides, what’s the point of buying a 1986 vehicle and then having to replace the transmission? Some savings eh?

Furthermore, grad students often act on an assumption of optimism about a brighter future. Sometimes it pans out, sometimes it doesn’t. You might call that idealistic, you might call it naive. But I’d hesitate to call it immoral.

I’d ask you Devyn,

Are you these people’s financial adviser? Are you balancing their checkbooks?

If not, what makes you think you even have the slightest clue about whether they are living in their means or not?

I’m highly skeptical.

I think that we tie morality and economic matters together because I don’t see how they can be separated. If we are consistently told to be self supporting and also told to take care of the poor, etc., these are economic matters.

I think you’re glossing over the issue. Are poor people less virtuous than rich people (based on the fact that poor people are less often able to be self-supporting or “take care of the poor”)? Even in an economically prosperous country like the US, people are often poor for circumstances beyond their control. Even grad students.

You have laid out the purpose of WIC, etc., but can you honestly say that someone who will make over six figures in a year or two should take advantage of the program rather than just suck it up and take out more loans?

Sure. I’ve already said that I don’t see anything wrong with society making an investment in these households, as they will clearly be in a much better position to put money back into the system (both by taxes and charitable contributions) in the future. The fact that they may earn “six figures” in the future doesn’t do anything to feed their infants now. It’s mostly irrelevant, particularly if these families have circumstances of which you may not be fully aware. (The unplanned pregnancy comes to mind. Many people outside the church would argue that the responsible thing to do would be to have an early-term abortion, but I’m guessing most of us would disagree.)

Your comment below “There is enough money in the program for all who choose to utilize it.” This money does not come from trees - it is tax money so if you don’t need it don’t use it.

WIC and other programs are generally sufficiently funded. It doesn’t follow that if those who qualify for it don’t use it that it will flow back into the pockets
of hard-working, morally upright taxpayers.

I am glad your anecdotal evidence is different from mine. I will say I know and have known a lot of hard working wonderful grad students as well, some who worked while in school to minimize their debt. My hat is off to them.

I’ll go ahead and take it further by saying that I don’t believe your anecdotal evidence. Are you absolutely sure that the same grad students who are driving new Volvos and Audis are the ones who are receiving WIC and food stamps? How do you know? The only grad students I’ve ever known to drive new European cars are the ones who are being funded by their wealthy families and not their Uncle Sam.

Devyn, it is curious that you and your wife felt a full decade of adult labor up front was neccesary to adequately provide for your children’s needs. (Your short biography on this website tells us that you were already working on a MS when you married.) This may have a bit to do with who the married graduate students are that you find yourself living among now. Those who are making do without welfare at a much lower level of affluence are not where you will encounter them. I am under the impression that Boston is one of the most expensive places to live in this country; Baltimore, where my wife and I were married graduate students, and where our two oldest children were born, was fairly cheap.

First off, being a Christian is not about being generous or nice “only when people deserve it.”

Secondly, like the GI Bill, I’m willing to invest in people, give them a temporary boost on their way to financial security.

I don’t consider students to be relatively poor either. But I’m still willing to help them with tax dollars. I consider it an investment in society.

Finally, the debt load Americans struggle under is horrendous. The interest rates and fees they are being charged is criminal. Even a law graduate finds himself in a very tenuous position financially after law school, sometimes for as much as years after law school. I’d be careful about defining “poor” and who is and is not deserving of a helping hand.

I’m a big fan of the social safety net. I think the existence of such a safety net encourages risk-taking and entrepreneurship. I think fewer would invest in higher education if the consequences of failure were higher. That would be a great loss to our society.

I am willing to help them, no matter how rich they are going to get in the future. No matter how stupid they are about their finances today. In the end, it’s only money to me. But to them, it’s a shot at great future.

Happy to be of service.

Re: 20

The math is not really hard to figure out. Start with tuition at almost any private grad school and most public grad schools. Then, add the cost of living in a major metropolitan area in the Northeast or West Coast. Then add the cost/expense of a child times 2 or three. Subtract one working spouse. That equals a monthly total that most people in their early to mid 20s, sans a graduate education, can’t earn while pursuing a graduate education at the same time. Thus, it’s not too much of a stretch to conclude that most LDS grad students with children and a SAHM are poor, at least by American standards. In fact, I would go so far as to think that most married and single LDS grad students sans children fall into the poor category as well. Unless these married LDS grad students are trust fund children, they are clearly living beyond their means: they cannot afford tuition and living expenses on their income. How hard is it to figure that out?

Those of us who’ve endured the professional rite of passage known as grad school have done it. I could never have finished law school without a combination of working, my wife working, scholarhips and student loans. Sans the extra help of scholarhips and loans, I could not have completed law school and enjoyed such pastimes as eating regular meals and living in a habitable structure. At the same time, we were poor and passed on a lot of activities and possessions until we could better afford them. We spent many a date night at the dollar movies, wore clothes beyond their expiration date-way beyond in some cases and I have the pictures to prove it-clipped coupons and so forth to help keep costs down. It just never occurred to us to look to welfare for assistance. (One year during tithing settlement a kind Bishop, sua sponte, reminded us not to forget to come to the church if we needed financial help.) It’s not a pride/macho thing either. It never occurred to me or my wife to go to a welfare office to fund behavior that is purely discretionary and within our own control, i.e. when to have children, buying a late model car and so forth. It wasn’t until years after grad school that I first became aware of this phenomenon among some LDS grad students to intentionally go on welfare to support a lifestyle. None of my fellow non-LDS married with children grad students did this and we had enless discussions about financing a grad school education with kids in tow. (I wonder that their impression of the Mormon church would have been if I had suggested they go on welfare, but that’s probably a discussion for another post. To be fair, other grad students may have gone the welfare route to get by, I don’t know how all of the married with children grad students financed their grad school days.) Additionally, nobody in our ward suggested the welfare route either; although, we had fewer discussions with ward members about money during this time.

One does not need access to a married grad student’s balance sheet to conclude the grad student is, more than 90% of the time, very poor and living beyond his or her present means. Those things are a given.

You are right that poor people are often indistinguishable from non-poor people. Devyn’s original post confirms this. How can you tell a married LDS grad student welfare king/queen from your garden variety welfare king/queen? I don’t know that you can.

Money, in whatever amount, has to come from somewhere. When faced with the inevitable deficit, the grad student and spouse only have a few options: cut spending, the spouse gets a job, borrow money, church help and/or government help or a combination of the three. How hard is that to figure out?

It seems pretty easy to me. People, seriously, don’t have kids until you can AFFORD them! The church also teaches us to be self reliant. A student with a stay at home wife making babies and not working is completely ridiculous. Use the brains God gave us, that ought to go a long way. A stay at home mom with a grad student husband who doesn’t work but yet gets on WIC instead of birth control and finding a job is so irresponsible that I’m speechless every time I see it.

Remembering that the only “perfect” form of BC is abstinence (loads of fun for young married couples!) and that abortion is generally frowned upon in our circles, lol, I’ll continue to assert that nobody has any right to judge the families who find themselves in this situation.

Seth,

defensive much?

RCH - oral contraceptives, when used properly work nearly 100% of the time. So abstinence is NOT the only alternative, unless you think that oral BC is wrong like McKonkie did…

“A student with a stay at home wife making babies and not working is completely ridiculous.”

Right on!!!!

call me judgmental too–I don’t care. This concept is SO ABSURD.

By the way, at least in our state, you aren’t allowed to own a new car and still qualify for WIC and Welfare.

As for the working thing when a family already has kids - it just isn’t economically viable. The reason? One word - Daycare.

To even turn a profit after daycare expenses, the non-student spouse would have to be working about 40 hours per week at at least $10 an hour TO EVEN TURN A PROFIT. We’re not even talking about meeting living expenses here, we’re just talking about paying for daycare and making some extra pocket money on the side.

And that’s just to pay for crappy daycare where they have 30 kids to each daycare worker, neglect the kids, etc.

The figures rise if you’re talking about younger children or multiple children.

And let’s not forget additional expenses associated with working - gas for commuting, suddenly you need nice work outfits you didn’t need before, now you have to buy expensive easy-to-make meals when grocery shopping because it just isn’t reasonable to be fixing inexpensive homemade meals anymore. There’s lots of other little things that really add up, kill your profit margin, and people just don’t think about these things.

For those student couples with children, a working spouse isn’t just a bad idea, it’s pointless and stupid.

And we’re not even talking about the likely depression, emotional strain, exhaustion and probable divorce that this situation imposes on the couple.

We’re still not addressing the issue of whether to HAVE kids in the first place. But if you’ve got them, working just isn’t really an option and we shouldn’t pretend it is.

“Call me judgmental too–I don’t care.”

No, no, Mfranti. I call you a materialistic child of Satan, and then you call me judgmental.

It’s interesting that when this topic comes up on the blogs, almost more than any other topic, it brings out unabashed judgmentalism and high horsery. For the most part, even when subjects are sensitive, I see at least some sort of an effort to judge charitably around here. But I have seen some of the most strident condemnations of people when the welfare thing comes up. Maybe its the hardcore Republican strain in Mountain West Mormonism coming out or something.

Jolly Juliet,
I can understand the position that one should delay having kids when you know you might need some government assistance to make ends meet. But I can’t see it as so shockingly irresponsible. They’re simply tapping into a resource that’s available to them. Agree or disagree that that is an OK thing to do. But have some compassion.

RCH,

obviously I didn’t read #37 correctly. Sorry

If you are medically ineligible for oral/hormonal birth control, like me, IUD are fabulous and you can get one from Planned Parenthood.

My comment above was in response to the line that reads: ““A student with a stay at home wife making babies and not working is completely ridiculous.”

I can understand the line of reasoning that leads to that conclusion - but I think it’s too harsh and doesn’t take into account the fact that a couple might be making their choices conscientiously and prayerfully.

JJ,

Because Christ said so, and if you expect even an ounce of mercy for your own private defects, you are expected to extend a bit to others.

Sometimes I wish blogs had signatures like some web forums do. Cuz I’d be quoting this one in mine:

Why should I have compassion for those who make unwise choices that then require assistance from the Federal government?

#8:

The government just regulates the interest rate and pays for interest during school time.

Whoa there…not so fast!!!!

Having benefited both from WIC and Stafford Loans, I can assure you that the Government subsidization of interest each month on my student loans was FAR costlier than the monthly benefits received from WIC. By a margin of 2 to 1, easily. WIC provides a few boxes of baby cereal, a bag of carrots, a couple cans of tuna, and a few cans of juice each month…hardly living high on the hog. If you use WIC for formula (we never did, as we never fed our babies formula), then that does cost more, because formula is so expensive. But even still, it may not be as much as the interest on several student loans that the government is paying for you while you are in school.

Please, people, do not presume to know about that which you have never personally experienced.

A few comments

Is it immoral to claim mortgage interest on taxes? My tax dollars are being used to finance mcmansions all across the country! We should be Self supporting, and not rely on the government for this deduction! Same with deducting tithing! What about public schools, should those of us who can afford private schools take our kids out?

Last year I received several thousand dollars benefit through the mnortgage and charitable giving deduction. This is several times the benefit a grad student would get on WIC.

Also - you never know someones situation. My wife and I were given a car to use (not held in our names) while in school. We did not choose the car, and despite my wishes, could not sell it, and get a more reasonable car and pocket the difference. It was a small imported luxury car. We got judged by it, but the option was to return the car to the giver (and have no car) or keep it. What would you do?

I think gaming the system, by hiding assets, or transferring money to family members (hey mom and dad, hold this savings for me) is unethical. Using government programs for which you properly qualify is fine.

I think we could do several different variations on this theme:

Why should I have compassion for those who make unwise career choices that then require assistance from employment services?

Why should I have compassion for those who make unwise personal choices that then require assistance from LDS family services?

Why should I have compassion for those who make unwise choices that then require forgiveness for their sins?

Really, the possibilities are endless.