62 Comments | leave a comment | RSS 2.0 for this post | trackback |
I feel the same way and immediately shut them down at this point given the obnoxiousness of the MLM thing. My mother worked as an admin at one of the juice companies and she asked me to review some of their scientific writings on it. I vomited all over them (figuratively) as there was no science - it was a bunch of assertions with no data. She gave it to the CEO and he said that I was a Harvard Snob… Too funny. |
My first month home from the mission my trainer (trainer!) called and asked if I wanted to go to a business meeting with him. I accepted and have not felt so incensed or abused many times in my life. It was the worst pyramid scheme product I’d ever seen…shares in rights to deregulated utilities in my state. What a joke. He never was that smart, though. The strange thing is, by serving with him I never would have guessed he was that type, but my brushes with him since have given me no reason to change my opinion. |
As a coke drinker, I resent that I will have to share hell with… them. |
I was on a plane ride sometime after my mission and these two nicely-dressed young guys gave me this whole spiel about how they belonged to this international organization and that they had a very exciting opportunity for me. But strangely, they were very resistant to telling me what the name of the corporation was. They invited me to a meeting and I went and then I realized very quickly that I was in hell. They had driven me there and so I was trapped for the duration of the meeting. And no, I didn’t join the operation. It’s been years and I can’t even remember for sure the name of the company. I’m pretty sure it was Amway. Someone also needs to warn engaged people or newlyweds not to go to one of those meetings where they try to sell you high-quality pots and pans. Just walk away. I sat through one of those presentations and again ended up (very happily) just walking away. Still, that’s two close brushes with evil I could have done without. |
There is a reason why Network Marketing and Tele-Marketing have substantially similar names. They are both from the bowels of hell. I cannot stand either, but the edge goes to MLMers, for whom no familial or friendly bond is too sacred to breach by preaching the Gospel of Melaluka. |
Since I have sworn off anonymity in my blogging, I will have to be careful in what I say here. |
Devyn (1): It’s always those Harvard snobs. When I think of Harvard, I think of two things: 1) liberals, and 2) family haters. (Or are those actually one thing?) Clearly your efforts to derail that family- and health-promoting MLM business support my impressions. Ellsworth: LOL! That is priceless. Textbook MLM experience. |
But Dan, if the 40ish tan man didn’t work on his body, he’d never get any new recruits! No one wants to be in the downline of a frumpy middle-aged bald guy with a spare tire. So in reality, tan-man really didn’t have so much free time at all: his entire ability to produce rested in his ability to remain attractive. |
I was thinking more on this, and what is offensive is that these MLMers are often very smart people. They have to be, because they come up with all sorts of schemes to get in the front door, so to speak. These people can figure out how to tie their product and pitch into anything that is of interest to you! When I worked in broadcasting, a former employee once called me and said he had an idea to pitch for the station. Being that he was a creative guy, I was willing to hear him out so I invited him to my office the next morning. He proceeds by talking about all the places interactive TV and radio are going to go (in the 90s there were such technologies as “radio coupons” and RDDS that many people thought would revolutionize advertising). After talking in very articulate terms about the direction of the broadcast industry, he brings home his point: Amway will get me where I want my industry to go. Amway is going to be a leader in pioneering the use of interactive media to enrich people’s lives with soap and air fresheners. At this point, I was pissed. He had wasted my time by appealing to something that interested me, only to try to get me to join Amway. Had I been a garbage man or a horticulturist I am sure he could have tailored a pitch to me just as well. This is merely one example. At least a dozen more come to mind, and every dang one of them is skilled at “likening all things unto” their target. |
The thing that always surprises me (it shouldn’t, though) is that people can be so tacky as to enthusiastically tackle a business that asks them to hit-up their friends for orders. It strikes me as a great way to lose friends. |
Danithew: see my post #5. But as I ponder the gospel of MLM more, I begin to think that if I wanted to sever bonds with family members I find obnoxious, then taking up MLM would be a good way to never have to deal with crazy cousins and grumpy in-laws anymore. You sure don’t get to choose your family, but with MLM you can choose which members you may never have to talk to again! It’s sheer genius! |
I had a similar experience with a missionary friend who tried to get me into Amway. I didn’t think much of him before, and don’t think much of him now. On the other hand, we bought a set of those high-quality pots and pans when we were newlyweds, and nearly 20 years later they are still wonderful. |
Ben There (11): That’s a great point– and not just relating to family members. The other day, I was buying milk at a convenience store near my home, and as I was paying for it, the cashier launched into a MLM pitch. While I’m buying milk?! Is nowhere at last safe? These people have no shame. But the effect was as you said– I will never go to that store during those hours again. Unless, of course, Noni is going into China. Then I may have to take a second look… |
Scamway and Melapuka. |
CS Eric - I have a feeling those pots and pans are a very high-quality product. The problem I saw is that it is a very high-powered sell approach (at least the one I saw). Later on television I saw a program that described how difficult (or impossible) it was for young couples to get out of the agreement they had made - some of them not realizing the level of debt or financial burden it would bring them. I know that people are responsible for any financial agreements they get themselves into - but the approach seemed a bit predatory and it was a serious problem to enough people that they actually did a news report on the subject. |
There was a wordpress blog called “Mary Kay Sucks” … Now it is known as “Pink Truth“. It was a pretty amusing read for awhile. The writer provides contact information but also there is a note saying she gets so many emails that she can’t respond to them. This, I believe, is an indicator of how many problems Mary Kay (and similar schemes) create for people. |
13 Tagore: That is an experience you should cherish: an MLM heart to heart with a convenience store checker. I wonder if his boss appreciates his recruitment efforts? In a very disconcerting case, I once had a friend whose family was big into Amway (several generations of the family were signed up in it), and this guy was an Amway distributor while he was yet in high school. When he turned 19 he went on his mission to some Nowheresville USA and did very well. He always had exciting letters about how many appointments he had and how many baptisms he had. And in his letters he actually once testified of how his and his family’s experience in Amway had benefited the Kingdom by preparing him to be a good missionary. Maybe the MTC should look to Amway for Mission Prep purposes? It was the first time (but sadly not the last) that I heard a testimony borne about Amway. {Ben There shudders} Once I even heard a testimony that testifed both of the truthfulness of one’s roommates at BYU *and* of Amway. {More shudders} |
People at BYU bear testimony of the truthfulness of their roommates???? hahahahahahaha! |
Ben There that is hilarious… I like the idea of taking up MLM to piss off the relatives - I may need to try that… I have one other to add - NuScam… |
Tagore - Harvard = Liberals & Family Haters - yep sums it up. We even had courses at the Medical School in how to torture family types, particularly those who take welfare in graduate school not to mention the liberal indoctrination we underwent. I hear DKL is considering taking the course given some of his recent comments. |
Kyle 18: Yes. All. The. Time. Maybe its not so bad anymore, but in the late ’90s, that was what you bore testimony of. It got so bad in my student ward that the SP came to visit us at the request of our bishop and he spoke one Sunday about how roommates were not part of the gospel. Also, I am not a Utah Mormon and I was never exposed to Utah Mormon Culture on a large scale until I went to BYU. “Utah Mormon” was a perjorative word as far as I knew, something applied only to strange couples who moved in and out of the ward and never really fit in with our informal style out in the sticks. I was shocked to find how prevalent MLM schemes on campus were. I wonder if it is the same now. At least 1/4 of the Utah Mormons I knew at BYU were MLMers or wanna-be MLMers (searching for the right gimmick, and praying they’d know which pyramid to join when it presented itself). Devyn 19: Just remember, even Pissed-Off Families Are Forever. |
Why are Mormons so susceptible to falling in love with Multi-Level marketing? Is it because most Mormons are the descendants of the bottom of 19th-century British society and therefore they are gullible or have lower IQs? |
Ben There - I will have to cross stitch that for the wall… I could sell them at Deseret Book… |
22 John: I don’t think it is all Mormons. It seems to be peculiar to Intermountain West Mormons. That is just my experience though. Maybe it is more widespread than my experience would indicate. In which case we’re all doomed. The feeling I get from those involved is that it is an expression of the Mormon work ethic, work hard and anything is within reach. So many of the people involved in MLM are very bright and intelligent. Which is what disturbs me. These are people who should be curing cancer, negotiating peace in the middle east, or building the next space station. Instead they are hawking overpriced vitamins, cheeses, soaps, steaks, and mascara. I know a guy who is a retired, published professor with dual PhD’s who took up MLM a few years ago. I about died. |
23 Devyn: Or start a downline and have your own army of MLMers hawking this heart-warming sentiment in ward meetinghouses around Mormondom. |
P.S. Devyn: I’d love to see a posted image of the finished cross stitch. It would become legendary around the bloggernacle, I am certain! I’d better file for a trademark quickly. |
Oddly, I’ve never been approached with an offer to participate in one of these schemes. I do know that a member of the area presidency brought Amway to Brazil while I was on my mission. I always thought that was very strange. |
And I am sure Brasil has never been the same since! Count your blessings. Your day will come. It is a test of faith that I think all LDS should have the privilege of enduring. |
@Ben There: Okay, maybe it has something to do with the stagnant economy in Utah. |
#26 Benthere - I better get busy learning how to cross stitch and you better trademark it… |
arj (27): Clearly, you need to spend more time in Utah. There’s a woman in our ward who joined the church because someone in her downline who was LDS introduced her. A bad tree that produces good fruit? I have a hard time reconciling this paradox. |
Devyn, Do you know any lawyers I could get to help me with the trademark application? But, I have strict requirements: I only want a lawyer who didn’t have children and accept welfare while in law school! |
Tagore, I would think that 25 years would be more than enough… |
arj: What?!! 25 years in Utah and you’ve never endured the hell of an MLM sales pitch? I definitely need to put you in touch with some people I know back in Utah. Or if you’re in Massachusetts, there’s a convenience store clerk I know (see #13) who would love to talk to you. |
Tagore- Why all the utah bashing? You sound like one of those people who grew up in Utah, moved away and now feels insecure about your roots. I grew up in Utah and now live on the east coast and I hear Utah bashing constantly, so it gets old fast. Mocking Utah comments are on par with the comedian who has to use profanity or vulgarity in his jokes. You’re almost always guaranteed a laugh, but, c’mon, is that the best you have to offer? |
Quonset: I didn’t see any comments here as Utah bashing. MLM is very prevalent in Utah, and perhaps less so among the rest of Mormondom. This is not bashing in any sense of the word. |
quonset, It’s not Utah that gets mocked. It’s the Mormons who live(d) there. |
Ben There- you are right. I read back through this thread and there is not much bashing. I guess I am still frustrated about other comments made by Tagore, especially his “Being from Utah” post. When I moved East about nine years ago I tried to take all of the ribbing in stride, but after awhile it just becomes tiresome. Ignorant, insecure and prejudice people (WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN TO UTAH) feel the need to put others down in order to build themselves up. While I can handle it, my children are old enough that they have to hear it as well and it’s just not funny anymore. The last thing I need is NATIVE utahns (Tagore- who appears to have insecurity problems about the whole Utah thing) jumping on the bandwagon and pointing/laughing in scorn with the rest of the hyenas. KyleM- thank you for providing an example of a classic hyena. |
Quonset: I sort of made mention of what you say, in my post #21. Outside of Utah, in wards all across the country, there does exist a scornful attitude. I hope you didn’t get the impression that I agree with that attitude, I was just stating that it was a prevalent attitude, for “Utah Mormon” to be an insult. I can certainly understand how you could be sensitive to it, being so widespread a belief that Utah Mormons are (insert favorite insult here). I have no problem with Utah as a state or the people who live there. It’s South Dakotan Mormons that really frost my cookie! j/k/. |
38. Oh, you’re welcome. We all know there’s no truth to any of the Utah Mormon mocking. Who knows how that whole thing even started. |
“I have no problem with Utah as a state or the people who live there. It’s South Dakotan Mormons that really frost my cookie! j/k/.” The saints from Montana are probably disappointed you added the j/k. |
Oops. I’m a tard. Montana people disparage North Dakotans, not South. |
If you’re a dork it doesn’t matter where you’re from… you’re going to get made fun of. |
Heh heh…Montana people [snicker] [giggle] |
John: do you suppose that MLM may actually serve a useful evolutionary role, to weed out the dorks from the otherwise desirable-to-reproduce portion of Mormondom? |
Ben There, I never said that dorks shouldn’t reproduce. |
No, but pitching MLM to a potential date is a sure way guarantee you get to spend a lot of evenings home alone, memorizing the latest product catalogs. I had a college roommate who pitched MLM to a group of girls who were at our apartment. He had the hots for one of them. Whatever she might have thought of him beforehand, she had no interest in him after trying to be sold beef jerkey and the chance to be her very own beef jerkey boss. |
Ben There, actually, in Utah County, being an evangelist for Amway / Nuskin / Tahitian Noni might actually increase your chances of impressing girls. |
There you go picking on Utah again!!! |
Ben There, I think a distinction is to be made between picking on Utah and picking on Utah County. Utah County is its own country as far as I’m concerned. |
I flat out say, “No. I hate those kinds of things and you can torture me, you can tell the whole world about the time I got drunk in Long Beach and gave that old guy a lap dance. Nothing would make me do this. NO NO NO NO!” When I get invited to sell parties, ie Tupperware, pampered Chef, I say, “No. I hate those kinds of things and you can. . .” Then I say, “Are we still friends? Because if I asked you to do something you didn’t want to do and you said ‘no, you can torture me and tell everyone I was the old guy you gave the lap dance to, the answer’s still no’, I would still like you.?” And they say, “Yes” because they don’t want to seem small. And I said, “oh, good. You know, knock yourself out. And if it works, more power to you, and if you end up wishing I’d talked you out of it, I’m always here for you.” And then I’d say, “How ya been?” Or, “I have to go, my dog is biting the lady being pushed down the street in a wheelchair again.” It is possible to say no and keep it friendly. It is possible to say no in a happy way that leaves no room for discussion, draws a boundary, and saves the relationship. I do it all the time. Also, Melodie Beattie says, “You cannot set a boundary and simultaneously take care of the other person’s feelings” |
quonset (35):
To the extent that my roots include a disproportionate number of network marketers, yes, I do feel insecure. Or maybe just really embarrassed. |
52. The cycle can stop. You just have to want to stop it. Maybe a support group would help. |
Anne, It’s not so much that we can’t so “no” in a friendly way, it’s that we don’t care much for their “ambush” tactics. We find that offensive. If these people would just say, “Hi, I’m Andy and I sell Amway, and I’d like to tell you how you can too”, I’d have no problem. But when they ambush you or trap you, that is highly offensive, no matter that we can back out, we’ve already had our time wasted and our intelligences insulted. |
I was invited to attend a meeting of local business consultants. The guy who invited me picked me up so we could car pool. It turned out to be an Amway pitch in some dude’s basement. I think we carpooled so I couldn’t walk out. They weren’t Mormons, though. Let alone Utah Mormons. Maybe that’s why I let my guard down. |
Kyle, I think they offer rides to people for just that reason - they know when you hear the word Amway it might send you running for the door. |
56 Dan: You are spot on. This is one of the tactics they learn in their training CDs they subscribe to and listen to over and over. No joke. A friend suggested I listen to a CD one time, and it was something like “maximizing your potential”. Well, the full title should have been “Maximizing Your Downline Potential By Trapping Friends and Relatives.” It was actually about effective recruitment techniques. I told my friend that I didn’t find it particularly enlightning. I don’t even think he realizes what CD he gave me. Anytime I hear “business consultant” I want to kick whoever is talking. |
Over the course of about two years I was approached by three different people who used the same opening line, “Don’t I know you from somewhere?” After trading a little bit of biographical information back and forth, they then brought out the hook, usually related to some little bit of information I’ve disclosed, and ask if I want to learn about a “business opportunity” which turns out to be Amway. I’ve been hit up like this on a playground with my kids, in a bookstore and in an airport. To the next person who asks the question, I’ll respond with a question, “Are you part of Amway or any other MLM like unto it?” If the answer is yes-end of conversation. As a YM president, I was once given a first counselor who was heavy into MLM. His weekly sales/con job meetings conflicted with YM nights so he never attended; taught good lessons on Sunday, though. Then he was called into the Bishopric and suddenly, magically his weekly sales/con job meetings disappeared allowing him to attend weekly bishopric meetings that were held the same time as the YM nights he routinely skipped to hustle more MLM rubes. I wonder how his calendar suddenly opened up? |
Then he was called into the Bishopric and suddenly, magically his weekly sales/con job meetings disappeared allowing him to attend weekly bishopric meetings that were held the same time as the YM nights he routinely skipped to hustle more MLM rubes. It’s interesting how a person can undergo personality/behavioral changes when called into a bishopbric. I can’t say it’s something I’ve seen that often - but I do have one dramatic example in mind. Having said that, it’s probably good that a person suddenly feels a need to be more responsible or to be a better person - but it’s nicer if a person makes those vital changes before being called into some kind of high-and-holy calling. But I guess this is material for another type of thread. Sorry - that quoted comment got me thinking a little bit is all. |
danithew, Maybe you just found the topic of your next post. |
I have an annecdote for that thread if you do. The transformation is really interesting. |
… In multi- level marketing, your profits will depend on the number of people you have recruited to join the program. Profits are generated through sales and referrals, so you have to get more people to know about your program. This is just the first ste… |