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If I pray out loud privately, it is usually when I’m in my car driving to or from the train station (I commute by train). I am conscious of when I stop at a red light and whether those in cars around me can see me apparently talking to myself, so sometimes I’ll put my prayer on “pause” until the light changes. I don’t bless the food publicly in restaurants or anywhere else. I visited Ricks once, and everyone made a big show of blessing their food in public, which rubbed me the wrong way. I’m not an advocate for public prayer in schools the way many Mormons seem to be. |
Kevin, that praying in the car example hadn’t occurred to me – but it’s something I’ve done. And I know what you mean about not wanting people in other cars to see me “talking to myself” so to speak. I have to say that the “praying in the car” example shows very well how the border between private and public prayers can easily be blurred. |
re: praying in a car. Your concerns about other drivers gazing over and seeing someone talking to himself may be allayed by purchasing an inexpensive earpiece common for use with cell phones. Simply insert earpiece, complete with dangly wire, and pray away, red lights or other interruptions be damned. When other drivers see you with the earpiece, they will assume you’re talking on a cellphone. They won’t know that it’s a celestial cell phone linked directly to the Big Guy-hopefully that call won’t get dropped. It is not uncommon in the Carolinas or Georgia to see people praying over their meals in restaurants. I;ve never done it and don’t plan to start. Before I learned better, in the south at various meetings-political, chamber of commerce, civic organizations etc.-there is usually a brief warning followed by an immediate prayer that can easily catch many LDS off gaurd. The warning is “Let us pray” followed by a prepared prayer with a different cadence, tone and wording than we are used to hearing. It took a couple of meetings and awkward, abrupt end of conversations in which I was engaged before I caught on. |
One interesting situation is if you have Thanksgiving dinner at a restaurant. It’s a little bit hard for me to imagine a Thanksgiving dinner without a prayer. |
I love that painting, Daniel. I’m a woman of a certain age. I love that because you can get away with a lot. I pray whenever I feel like it. Which is nowhere as often as I need to or should. |
Annegb: Yeah, it helps when you don’t give a hoot what other people think. And you don’t have to be old to not care what other people think. |
rbs; I’ve never seen anyone pray in a restaraunt here in Georgia, but “Let us pray” is something I hear even at LDS meetings. My husband is often asked to offer a prayer before the kids’ soccer games (sponsored by a church league). They only ask adults (from among the coaches). I don’t think I’ve ever heard him, only seen it from the sidelines, so I don’t know if he follows the typical LDS prayer protocol or is more ecumenical. Here’s a story about public prayer you all might find interesting. A friend of mine, while serving as RS President in an inner city ward, attended the funeral of a ward member that was held at the family’s church. Churches in the South are very segregated, and she was the only white person there. But she was representing the church home of the deceased, so they asked her to pray. Very soon after she began, she noticed the organ was playing along with her, following her cadence and emotions. It was probably pretty unsettling at the time, but since hearing that I’ve attended some other funerals at black churches and found this to be a very enjoyable practice. The organists are VERY talented. |
In re question 2: Yes. Always. Out loud, with my family. We keep it quiet and low key as to not disturb others. Just like we keep our conversation at a reasonable level. I don’t think my children should be taught to be ashamed of praying. |
Danithew:
Just wear a bluetooth earpiece and no one will know the difference. :) Actually, there are all sorts of reasons you could be talking to yourself. I used to dictate letters into a tape recorder while driving. |
Kevin:
Making a big show of prayer is what is wrong, when we are praying amongst ourselves only. We are commanded not to make a big show of praying. Now obviously a group prayer as in a meeting is a different matter. A lot of things at church schools are all about trying to appear more righteous than your neighbor, and that has always rubbed me the wrong way. As Jesus said, though, those who make their prayers before men have already received their reward. May they get indigestion and may their lemonade “go down the wrong pipe”, amen. :) I see I repeated rbc’s comment on the bluetooth earpiece. Seems like it would do the trick, though. |
Claire: <blockquote>Very soon after she began, she noticed the organ was playing along with her, following her cadence and emotions. It was probably pretty unsettling at the time, but since hearing that I’ve attended some other funerals at black churches and found this to be a very enjoyable practice. The organists are VERY talented.</blockquote> Amen! Hallelujah, preach it, sister! I have attended services in black baptists churches, AME churches, and black pentecostal churches (in areas outside the south, so the “segregation” is not just some southern holdover from the 50′s…I think its more a cultural thing, just as we LDS have Hmong wards, Spanish wards, Korean wards, etc., which someone once told me they thought was awfully segregationist of us). Anyway, I digress….in all of these African-American faith traditions, they take music very seriously. It really seems like it is a much more important component of their services. They will do the organ thing while the preacher is preaching, too, following along as if it were scripted out, yet you know its not. It is a beautiful thing to hear, and really adds a joyous element to the services. Aside from the joyous music and the prayer music, they can even perfectly accompany “hellfire, damnation, and brimstone preaching” with organ music that is positively terrifying in its tone. Hearing the preacher and the organ together, I almost felt like going to the front to “get saved” on a few occasions. :) |
When we go out to eat, my husband and I usually say a short, simple and fairly quiet prayer. We don’t try to draw attention to ourselves, but we don’t try to hide it either. Not to change the discussion, but I once saw someone at BYU buy a candy bar and then stop to pray before eating it. I had never before, or honestly since, thought that a candy bar was worthy of its own prayer. Am I wrong? |
Wasn’t one of the reasons that Gladys Knight formed “Saints Unified Voices” that she thought traditional LDS music is not very lively? The story I read was that she complained to Pres Hinckley about it, and he suggested she do something. And if someone is thinking traditional LDS church music is “too white,” I’d agree. I’ve noted the difference in local LDS wards, that you can sort of tell if the organist is from Utah or born/raised in Indiana. Utah organists seem to play the same hymns slower than local organists, or so it seems to me. |
We do some business with Mennonite folks in lower Ontario Canada. They commonly say a silent prayer in a restaurant. One fellow asked me if I didn’t pray before meals. I have thought about that since then. I am glad for his example of following his faith, but I still don’t often pray in restaurants. We bought our boys the video, Manners for Missionaries and Others. It is cloyingly prim in parts, but with some reasonable parts. It recommends that missionaries say a short silent prayer in restaurants because observers might be bothered if they don’t. |
Tammy, was it a Mr. Goodbar? If so, then yes. It was definitely worthy of its own prayer! I try not to judge others. If someone believes saying a prayer before consuming a delicious chocolate bar is necessary, then I see no reason to deny them that. If they were doing it for show…..oh wait THAT would never happen on the BYU campus…..then it seems a bit silly and over the top. Clair (14), the whole idea of missionaries saying a prayer for the sake of others’ not being disturbed….well, I find that to be disturbing. Are we praying to pray or to make an impression on others. Same standard as applies to the wholly delicious holy candy bar: pray sincerely, or don’t pray at all. |
“Not to change the discussion, but I once saw someone at BYU buy a candy bar and then stop to pray before eating it. I had never before, or honestly since, thought that a candy bar was worthy of its own prayer. Am I wrong?” What exactly would you be praying for? Please bless oil, sugar, fat and chocolate that it will nourish and strengthen me? Thank you for providing the 50 cents so I can eat something totally unhealthy and destroy this body you’ve given me? Ridiculous. Most people I see praying in public, especially at places like BYU or any college Institute, seem to be doing it for no other reason than to show others how spiritual they are (including looking around to make sure every one saw you after the prayer is complete). For those of you that do it, and really mean it like Ben There, you have my admiration. But in my experience it’s usually seems to be for getting more attention. |
JJohnsen: Agreed. The candy bar story is so funny. So typically BYUish! Thank you for your kind words. As I mentioned, we keep our prayer short, low key, and private. OTOH, I grabbed a jelly bean from a coworker’s jar on her desk this morning. I did not offer up thanks for it. I do not believe I will go to hell, though! I suppose the principle in action ought to be this: do what you feel is right for you and yours, and not judge others, but don’t pray for the praise and attention of others, because then you will get your attention by being mocked all over blogs. |
Jesus pointed out that public prayers are worth little. The prayers that matter happen in “the closet.” There is nothing inherently wrong with public prayer but it does create a situation conducive to various manifestations of vanity. Matthew 6 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. |
Hellmut, That said, like Kevin, I don’t want prayers in public schools. And danithew, I’m conflicted about subway prayers and preaching. I admire the preachers’ desire to share the gospel with the masses of NY, but sometimes that sharing, in a confined moving subway car, seems more impositional than preaching on a street corner where people can come or go as they will. |
In my mission, there were actual known people who would be upset if the missionaries did *not* pray before eating in public, so we were encouraged specifically to pray in public before we ate (silently, but still in head-down-arms-folded mode). Yes, essentially just for show…because people ‘expected’ the missionaries to do so. We also had many members in my mission who called the mission president to ‘report’ missionaries drinking Coke and caffeinated soft-drinks, so we were encouraged to avoid doing that in public–same sort of thing. You can draw your own conclusion about the members in my mission, but when inactivity is a big enough problem as it is, there’s something to be said for trying to avoid problems and stumbling blocks by doing (or not doing) little things even if you know that they are (or should be) meaningless… |
Hellmut, That Sermon of the Mount scripture about praying in closets occurred to me when I first read the D&C verse that is quoted in the post. I think one potential point of the D&C scripture may be to sort of balance things out – to make it clear that our motive cannot or should not be to “be seen of men” as we pray – but at the same time we should not conscientiously seek to avoid all instances of public prayer. There are times when public prayers are appropriate and wholesome – we just have to be sensible about it. |
Sam (19), the Lord also says, in Isaiah I think, that our fear of Him is only the fear of men. Group cohesion is not a gospel value. And as the prophet says, it cheapens piety. Besides given that our children ought to make up their own mind about their religious obligations, public prayer and religion are probably counterproductive for most communities. We should not confuse our group for the gospel nor deploy religion against the conscience of our neighbors and family members. Therefore, it is not ethical to deploy prayer for group cohesion. I don’t mind street praying as long as people have an opportunity to get away from it. I do think, however, that it is a corrupting practice. Neither do I mind when people pray publicly or official events begin with a prayer. That’s the tradition in this society but it cheapens Christianity into a matter of appearances. When candidates for political office do not dare to admit that they are atheists then we have created a world where it pays to lie. That’s neither good for society nor for Christianity. They both become corrupted by public displays of piety. |
Hellmut, I think group cohesion may actually be a gospel value. |
Also Helmut, I don’t know what to make of your line that says:
Of what age are the children you are talking about? I had a friend who grew up in the Unitarian tradition and she told me a story about going to church (as a child) and asking a teacher “is there a God?” The teacher responded by simply asking “what do you think?” My friend seemed a bit frustrated by the inability of a church instructor to definitively articulate a belief in God’s existence. |
i frequently say private prayers aloud, albeit quietly. i am less reserved about this around my kids than i am my husband. my mind tends to wander and i can keep things straight if i say it out loud. not having been raised lds, prayer is something i struggle with. i don’t seem to be able to pull off what everyone else says they do. i’m a work in progress. we do not pray in restaurants. we saw someone say a prayer in a los angeles souplantation last week and discussed, my husband and i, that it seemed odd. it’s just not the way either of us were brought up. my kids insist on saying blessings on any bit of food, though they are too young to be eating things like candy bars with any regularity so i guess jjohnsen would approve. we just express gratitude for the food and ask a blessing upon it and us, forsaking the trite “that it may nourish and strengthen our bodies.” but sometimes my kids do throw in something about being “healthy and strong,” as that’s how we refer to good food choices, which their diet is mostly comprised of. saying prayers aloud in the car doesn’t bother me. i sometimes find myself talking to myself out loud anyhow. i’m on the road a lot and without anyone else to talk to, so i think things out aloud every so often. i always figure other people will think i’m on a cell, which allows me to be even MORE animated! i think i’m more deliberate when i say public prayers, but i’m very in-tune then and really try to listen for what i should say. in private prayers, i ramble a lot. my family is very anti-lds. oddly, they asked me to lead the family in prayer a few thanksgivings ago. i was very flustered and even worried about what i should or shouldn’t say to be sure i didn’t offend any of the catholics, jews, lutherans, atheists, or others present. it was interesting, but a positive experience for me. i was grateful for that morsel offered by my family. |
It’s a free country, Danithew, but to use religion for group cohesion in this day and age amounts to building on an unstable foundation. People are too passionately committed to too many different ideas about religion. Historically, when religion is the raison d’etre of a group it has lead violence and disintegration. I am surprised at your suggestion since religion has been observably inadequate for group cohesion since the seventeenth century. That applies to groups as intimate and as small as nuclear families. Imagine a family that sticks together because of religion. Then one of the children decides that the religion violates its conscience. That family better have a bond beyond religion or it will break up. Jesus and Isaiah were wise when they dissuaded the pursuit of human approbation by the public display of piety. They were concerned about its corrosive effects on religion. During the last three hundred and fifty years of western history, it turns out that religion also cannot hold together collectives. |
Hellmut, I think we might simply be looking at this from different angles. I don’t mean to imply that religion should be the sole reason for group cohesion. The angle I was looking at is from the viewpoint that God/scriptures teach us to “be one”, “love thy neighbor”, “love one another,” etc. and etc. That’s what I meant by group cohesion being a gospel principle. People who are related (as in a family) certainly have a reason to be cohesive that can bypass religious considerations. No doubt about it. There are many other reasons as well that a group might choose to stick together. |