Interesting thoughts, Devyn.

So . . .

are you trying?

(Just kidding.)

You must come across as a nice, open, friendly person, because I have almost never gotten those questions (people perceive me as mean, I think). My wife and I were married for nearly 5 yrs before having our son and I was asked about having kids maybe one time. You should try walking around with a scowl and just generally not being too friendly, and I’m sure the questions/conversations are bound to stop. :}

This reminds me of a story my sister-in-law told me the other day. Apparently, she and her husband were “trying” but not having any luck, so her father, my father-in-law, took her and her husband aside to have a little talk. (Keep in mind they were trying to have a SECOND child.) The obvious purpose of the conversation was to talk about the raw mechanics of conception, and her father asked such questions as, “Are you ejaculating inside of her?” and the like. I can only imagine that some members of the church, upon being asked, “maybe you have some advice on how we can do it better?” would actually give some advice, as it seems my father-in-law was trying to do. At the end of the day, my sister-in-law just thought it was really funny, but still, I can’t imagine being asked anything like that if I already had one child.

Another possible, though probably not wise, response to the question of “are you trying?” is “Not really, we’re just going through the motions.” I’ve used it a few times and it works. Btw, I have three kids and still get asked about having other children, so don’t think the nosy but amusing questions will stop after you_finally_have your second child.

Of course, you could also say, “I don’t feel comfortable having another child so long as I’m on welfare.” That would generate an entirely different and long conversation.

re: your hypothesis, my experience is that we’re nosy and judgmental. But, in that regard we’re also not that much different than non-LDS, we just seem to be interested in different topics to be nosy and judgmental about than our non-LDS friends and neighbors.

My wife and I were married 8 years before we had our first child, so of course we got that question all the time. I just told them that I don’t like kids and that they are only good to propogate our species. In our polite mormon culture the only response I recieved was an “oh”.

And just as Devyn we now get the “When are you having another”, I actual get that more from non-morms at work. However, I use a response similar to my pre-child days which usually which prevents them from asking again.

BTW, I love kids, always have, and wish I could have a good dozen.

Very early in my wife’s first pregnancy, a couple we are friends with asked me if we were trying to have a child. As we hadn’t publicly disclosed the pregnancy yet, I awkwardly responded “We’re not not trying.” They mostly understood what I meant and left me that day with “Good luck with not not trying.”

Curious ward member: “Don’t you want more children?”

Me: Now way! I have all the child I need.

or

Curious ward member: When are you going to have a baby?

Me: Niel and I have decided to not have any more children

CWM: really?

me: yes. I am way too pissy and selfish to subject another life of misery with me…and dog’s listen better.

I haven’t had any questions regarding my reproductive system in nearly a year. Perhaps word has gotten around that I don’t like people butting into my sex life?

and devyn, my vote is for #1

1. No one wants anyone to be any different – we want everyone to look and act like us and follow the “model” that has been laid out in the Mormon culture (3-5 kids starting early in marriage)

Reproduction is obviously a very personal thing, but that doesn’t stop it from also being a fundamentally public matter as well. Think about the word public. A matter of great interest in the wards I’ve lived in is: Who’s moving in and who’s moving out?

Fishhead – now that is scary. If my father-in-law did that, I am not sure how I would respond.

Steven – I like the response – it would sound appropo coming from an evolutionary biologist too…

John – I love it – I will have to try that one out in the future.

Danithew – I have thought of a lot of other crude things I could say, none of which I will repeat here. But I am sure you can come up with an equal number of things like that…

“Are you trying?”

My approach would be to make the conversation as awkward as possible as soon as possible:

“Yes; we’ve hired some intimacy coaches to try to help us speed things along”

Provided she intended to express support for large families, I agree with the woman’s intention. We need to show more support for large families in the Church. It is unfortunate that she could not have been more delicate and less nosey.

While the world’s population as a whole will continue grow for some time, women in the developed world have far too few children. In fact, were it not for recent immigrants from the third world, even the US would have a below replacement level birth rate. Remarkably, even nations like Iran or Brazil now have too few children to replace themselves.

Thank you for Devyn, for having a child. I hope you consider having more, in your own time and when you’re ready. I feel great respect, love, and even admiration for people that have large families (like mfranti’s mom, whom I have met, and for whom I have great admiration). (Have I mistaken you for someone else, mfranti?)

(A nation must have an average of 2.10 children to have stable population. The link contains a shocking list of birth rates–see Hong Kong, Spain, or Germany! Whoa! Waaaay below replacement level.)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2127.html

I suppose that the subject question is even nosier and more impolite than the ones unmarried people, especially men, get asked in the church.

A 30-year old never-married brother from Utah moved into our ward a few years ago. After he was here almost a year, he remarked to me that no one, or hardly anyone had asked him why he was still single, and wondered why they weren’t asking like “back home.”

My reply was something like, “Because that’s a rude question that’s nobody else’s business.”

I suppose more good comebacks to the “why aren’t you having more kids?” question might be:

1. We’d like to adopt, can you help us out financially with the adoption fees?

2. We have a high deductible and co-pay on our health care plan, can you help us out with the maternity expenses?

random guy,

how many frantis do you know?

email me

melanie.franti at gmail

Having been put in this situation more times than I can count, I have over the past year or two really tried to take these situations and turn them into “teaching moments.” Because, like the woman who inquired with you, most people who ask aren’t trying to be rude, they simply don’t have a clue that it’s an inappropriate question. So, instead of coming up with some cute retort, what if you said something along the lines of “You know, I know you don’t mean any harm by the question you just asked, but just so you know for future reference, that type of question may be offensive to certain groups of people. For example, infertile couples…blah…blah…In summary, it’s probably just better not to even start down that road, you know what I mean?”

If you say it in a nice tone, and smile a lot, and look at it as an opportunity to teach with gentleness, just think how many people you will be saving from future awkward conversations if you take the time to teach this one clueless person about it now.

The (admittedly) few times I have taken the time to do this, I’ve been surprised at how positive the experience was. All offenders actually said something along the lines of, “Gee…I hadn’t ever thought of that before. I’m glad you said something…thank you for saving me from future embarassment.”

Ann (24),

If your friend really says that, then wow- that’s bold. I personally would probably just say “we’ve got problems with plumbing.”

This actually happened once about a year after my new bride and I moved into this ward:

Nosy Busybody Ward Gossip: So, Brother Phouchg, when are you going to start a family?

Phouchg: I don’t know…right now we are saving up for a boat.

Nosy Busybody Ward Gossip:

Of course, the word got out a couple of months later that I got a vasectomy, and now my wife is known as “poor Mrs. Phouchg, stuck in a barren marriage to a horrible inactive”.

Needless to say, she doesn’t go to many ward social events.

Maria – I am sure you have the right approach, although there are some pretty funny ones that have been suggested. Thanks.

John F – Interesting comment – First, I never said anything in the grad student post about how many or when to have kids, except I did not want to pay for them. I hardly think that is obsessed with reproduction. Secondly, in the second post, all I was doing was giving context for my Happy Fathers Day salutation – I would like to know how I inferred anything except to have a fricken Happy Father’s Day… So please inform me how I inferred a damn thing. I am sick of being castigated for wishing people a Happy Father’s Day. Sorry you have hit a bit of a nerve here since I was crucified on that post for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

“I was crucified on that post for absolutely no reason whatsoever.”

First of all, having spent some hours preparing Gospel Doctrine Lesson 26, I would ask that you not use the term “crucified” lightly. No way did what you experienced come even CLOSE to “being crucified.”

Your happiness in the father’s day column, which appeared to many as smugness, set off a few people who wrote in less-than-kind comments. Big whoopee. If that’s the worst thing in your life, you really are the spoiled brat that people sometimes accuse you of being.

And sorry, as a blogger, you don’t get to decide what is “no reason whatsoever.” Different people have different realities, and when you choose to blog and put your ideas out there for public comment, there is an inferred contract that you will accept other people’s realities as equally valid and not dismiss them.

Devyn:

I feel bad. You are right. You didn’t say anything like that in your Father’s Day thread. I was taking a ton of liberty in my comment (you probably remember that I actually did read that into your Father’s Day thread by reading it somewhat informed by the married mormon grad student thread). I apologize for my comment # 28.

Also, as I noted in my comment # 28, I agree with you that Latter-day Saints should stop asking other ward members about their family plans and/or making judgmental comments about other ward members’ reproductive status/plans.

Makakona – wow – I haven’t had that in public yet. I am surprised – glad you are safe at Church though.
Seth – that is a good point that they are not trying to be rude, but that is how they live their lives. I will try to remember that.

John F – thank you. I appreciate that. While I knew the grad student thread would be controversial, I was shocked by the comments on the Father’s Day thread.

Endless – fair point, but I have never experienced it outside of the Church, although I have been enlightened by other’s experiences. You argument is interesting and perhaps has validity – I will have to ponder that one. However, I don’t know about the infertile couple comment as I can only speak from the experience of friends who have been offended. I know that for them it is offensive especially when they are surrounded by a culture in the Church where children are an essential part of the equation for most people. They feel like they are being maligned when all they are trying to do is have kids. So I won’t address whether you are right or wrong – someone in those shoes can.

It’s true that gentiles can be even more rude. I remember one time when my mother generously allowed us to take several friends downtown. When we got off the trolly with six or seven children under ten, a stranger asked my mother if she had ever heard of birth control.

The reason why we are so judgmental among ourselves is that we define ourselves as more enlightened and more virtuous than outsiders. The tendency to control each other is reinforced by the dubious practice of approaching gospel principles in terms of check and rules lists.

#43 Hellmut – wow – that was a surpisingly rude thing to hear.

#44 – Hellmut – John F apologized for his comments about the Father’s Day thread, not about the grad student thread. What exactly to you mean by your comment – I am not sure I understand it?

I have 4 kids 7-5-3 year old twins. All boys. My wife is 30. We had three years of fertility issues prior to our first son in 2000. I was never bothered about the questions about our first birth then and am not bothered about questions about the 5th child now.

We get asked all the time about having a girl. Both from members and non-members. We are trying to have another child. Hopefully a girl

I have a healthy attitude about procreation and am not bothered by the constant questions. People like us and care about us and would love to see us have another child. There is to much defenseness manifested by many of the posters.

It makes me wonder what causes all the angst.

I think its 3 fold.

1. Nobody likes a busybody in general
2. Infertility causes pain, Infertile people are often deeply hurt by the questions about kids.
3. Some people are pursuing other goals usually financial and children would interfere with these financial goals. So these people get defensive when asked about kids cause it pricks there raised in the LDS church conscience. Its insecurity about their pro-creation choices in a “large family church”.

You know if your #1 #2 #3 or a combo of them.

“stop some prick”

John Fowles, you go on as if you were the first American to live in London, as if you were the first Mormon American to live in London and as if you were the first Mormon American Lawyer (Attorney, Barrister, Solicitor)to live in London.

You aren´t.

“stop some prick”

Shaun, John is merely suggesting that his wife and his mother had similar experiences in different cultural contexts. That’s a meaningful contribution.

I like to compare my American experiences with its German equivalents. I am sorry if that annoys people but I hope that comparisons add a little depth to our perspective.

re 49, I was not aware that I had mentioned I am a Mormon American Lawyer living in London. Even my bio on this blog doesn’t say that.

It is true that I once wrote a post on this blog about the visit of two U.S. Senators to London. From that, and from my comment # 46 on this thread, one could infer that I live in London, so good job.