Maybe its just me, but I am troubled to have the Church at any level endorse goods/services available in the market place. Personally I find it an inappropriate use of Church resources. How would this be different from allowing stake members the opportunity to just come right up to the pulpit and advertise their business endeavors?

Hmmm … honestly, it didn’t come across as horribly inappropriate in the meeting. Quite the opposite. It seemed pretty positive … there are a lot of different professionals in the NY, NY stake (photographers, artists, musicians, doctors, lawyers, etc. and etc.) and this seemed a way to encourage LDS people to see what services are available from within the local LDS community. It seems to be open to anyone and also points out that those who hire services should seek additional references.

Maybe I’m missing something. I’m a bit surprised at the expressions of aversion. Then again, this is the first time I’ve seen anything like this in a church meeting.

danithew,

I’m wary of this approach for a different reason. Sometimes in business and commerce, the need arises to take an adversarial position, e.g. to collect overdue accounts receivable or to compel contract compliance through legal means. It can be disruptive to a ward when that is going on among the members. Even when it is just a matter of hiring someone as an employee it can get complicated. Ward life is often enough of a circus without everybody being in everybody else’s business. This saddens me a little, because I used to think we ought to try to emulate the law of consecration. I’ve learned through sad experience that we still are nowhere near the goal.

For now, I’ve found that I prefer doing business with gentiles. :-)

The real benefit of a site like this is having a starting point for hiring someone who has a better chance of being trustworthy than someone you just pick out of the yellow pages.

We have been procrastinating a lot of work that needs to be done on our house simply because we know there are a lot of rogue traders out there and are worried about being ripped off or hiring someone who does a poor job.

Devyn, I think that might be a good point – that in areas where church membership is “small”, that this kind of practice might be a problem.

I believe we were told yesterday that there are now six meeting sites for LDS Church members in New York City. That might signify a sufficiently large and dispersed LDS population that this kind of activity wouldn’t be as problematic.

I could see how it might be wiser not to have business relationships with people who are in your own ward – though even in that area I could see how there could be exceptions.

I didn’t realize the extensive list of potential professional services (by LDS people) was listed at the website itself … I wonder if this is based on a specific list of names/professions of actual people in the stake.

Here’s the list:

accountant
art dealer
babysitter
business promoter
cake decorator
career counselor
caterer
chauffeur or driver
construction worker
cook
counselor or therapist
electrician
financial adviser
foreign language instructor
graphic designer
guitar instructor
hairdresser
handyman
housecleaner
immigration lawyer
jewelry maker
mentor
photographer
physical therapist
piano instructor
plumber
private tutor
real estate broker
resume writer
school tutor
seamstress
tax return preparer
translator
tutor
voice instructor
web designer

And, while I don’t have a CHI, it would seem there is probably some provision in there about using Church resources for commercial gain.

#13 Guy:
You’re absolutely right (though I’ll poke you in the ribs and refer your own argument back to the OTHER legal thread we’re participating in–grin!). You are also quite right that this sort of commercial endorsement was a violation of the GHI. I’m honestly quite surprised to see it happen.

It reminds me of when I was in a married student ward with a lower-income demographic. The stake leadership noted that our ward was using more fast offerings than student families in adjacent wards (populated by students who actually owned trailers or condominiums, or rented much more expensive apartments), and that much of this expenditure was medical in nature. They determined (and we were told this over the pulpit) that we were simply foolish for not carrying adequate health insurance. Rather than realize that few in our ward could afford the premiums, they actually brought in an LDS insurance salesman to “instruct” a combined relief society and priesthood lesson—effectively giving said salesman a captive audience for a high-pressure sales pitch. Again, something that the leaders in SLC would surely have found entirely inappropriate.

I would caution that just because a business owner is a member of your church (any church that you happen to belong to) doesn’t mean they are honest. Sadly, many LDS con artists have used this ploy against other LDS members.

On the other hand, I completely understand the desure to use your means to support the businesses of those who share your values, or who are part of your community. I try to do the same thing, within my own sphere. I likewise avoid using my means to support the businesses of those who work against my community’s interests. Some would call this cliquish or clannish. I call it full participation in one’s community, and advancement of one’s own goals in society.

“I actually agreed with the point that was made by the speaker – if all other things are equal and you’re going to be hiring someone anyway – why not put that money in the pocket of a qualified LDS professional?

That was the general thrust of the presentation given in the talk.”

That is a great fallacy. All other things are never equal. In fact, many would argue that from a business perspective that even if you buy into the false idea that all else can be equal, you should hire someone who is different than you. Diversity is a good thing.

In any case, most stakes and wards have an employment specialist. The church also has it’s own jobs site. It seems wrong to undermine the church program from the church pulpit.

Sorry, I pasted the link. Here’s the link. LDSJobs.org

KyleM,

I understand your perspective and viewpoint. I’m just entertaining another possibility. We often hear people appreciate that the Bloggernacle exists and that it provides a forum for conversations that simply cannot take place in the “official” church/chapel environment.

In the same way, I think the online world could provide a context in which LDS business people, professionals, talent, etc. could congregate, have discussions, etc.

I think the element here that is freaking people out is that there was a talk on the subject of this site from the pulpit. Again, I was there — and the presentation did not feel inappropriate to me. There are many times when I’ve felt a strange vibe or uncomfortable when certain things were said from the pulpit – this just wasn’t one of them.

I’m a little bit concerned that sometimes our reservations about certain things might mean that we (as an LDS community) are getting in our own way.

Never, never, NEVER hire someone or do business with someone simply because they are LDS. There are too many people out there that are all too willing to abuse the assumptions that others make about them because they are LDS.

Even honest people can have serious misunderstandings over business dealings that can lead to long term hard feelings and divide wards.

Even working with the Church as a business can be tricky. Of all the clients that I’ve dealt with the Church is the one that I’ve had the most problems with. Part of this is probably due to my own attitude in working with them, assuming that they’ll be a certain way because they are the Church.

Honestly, this Hire a Saint site seems like a perfect place of the less ethical among us to hang out. I’d steer clear.

Guy Murray – #13 – On what legal basis would the church be held liable, even if it did endorse the service? I can’t think of any.

So I should prefer to hire a saint over hiring a sister or brother without regard to whether they’ve been baptized? This is a perk of membership?

Perhaps we should add a “hire-an-investigator” website to see if we can increase conversions.

Yecch.

Not at $37.50 a bottle, Tagore. How does stuff like this take off in Utah? I though Mormons were cheap.

I think this is a terrible idea. My experiences in hiring LDS professionals (used car dealer and realtor) have both been fairly negative. This is a recipe for disaster for all the reasons mentioned. It’s almost as bad as the time the sister missionaries announced a Pampered Chef party they were hosting for an investigator (that they went ahead and held after I called them on it in an official capacity!!!!!!!).

I have to say that, other than being announced in an official Stake capacity, I don’t think this is bad per se. I tend to do look through informal networks to find help, and have had almost universally positive experiences with personal service providers (other than cell phone providers), whether LDS or not. My babysitter is an LDS girl in our ward, while my financial advisor is a guy who cold-called me at work, and had probably never met a Mormon before. The only place, I think, where it’s disadvantageous to do business with a church member is where we assume that membership is a perfect proxy for honesty; if, on the other hand, we go in with our eyes open, then business dealings with some Mormons will be just as good as business dealings with some non-Mormons.

Again, outside of the apparent imprimateur of the Church (and the unprofessional look of the site–my unsolicited advice: if you want to advertise how professional you are, capitalize!), it doesn’t seem that far from Facebook or any other professional networking site or organization.

Danithew, I don’t mind doing business with people who happen to be Latter-day Saints. I do have a problem seeking out business because the proprietors are Latter-day Saints. That’s an important difference.

And I definitely would not want to do business with anyone preferring to do business with other LDS. The danger that this person would stretch for some religious excuse to take advantage of me would be too great (I was so inspired about that particular investment).

The multi-level marketing schemes that sweep through LDS circles are evidence enough of how disadvantageous it can be when one mixes business and religion: too many temptations to exploit one another and too little skepticism to protect oneself.

For a large tithe paying family, the loss of as little as a thousand dollars to an MLM is a big deal . . . and it is quickly more than that.

While I’m happy to hire a member, I only do so if they are otherwise the best person for the job. I don’t discriminate one way or the other. I do however avoid anyone who leads their “pitch” with their Church membership.

Potential conflicts in the relationship aren’t limited to issues of honesty. Several years ago I hired a church member I didn’t know for some graphic and printing work. Coincidentally I was the high councilor assigned to his ward. When he baptized his daughter he asked me to stand in the confirmation circle, even though I had only known him for a couple of weeks and our relationship was purely business. Within a month we had a business conflict (I felt he had under-delivered on the project). Over the course of the dispute he complained that I had spoiled his daughter’s confirmation by entering the circle with a spirit of animosity (which I didn’t feel at the time). I still find myself avoiding this brother at stake events.