42 Comments | leave a comment | RSS 2.0 for this post | trackback |
I don’t get the “but” between “slender” and “kind.” Do you have to be fat to be kind? |
Creepy! |
The cult of personality, isn’t it? |
This seems like a song written for an event — it mentions Jeffs being 45. So I wonder whether this is really a primary song in the “cannon” of their songs or whether it was a one-off event song. At any rate, much of the material sounds very foreign to LDS ears, and other parts of it are very familiar, so it is an interesting specimen. |
Is it any less a cult of personality for four year old primary children to have parents whisper in their ear and repeat, over the pulpit, “I know Gordon Z. Hinkney is a pwo-fit of God”? Just how is it that every primary child “knows” verbatim, the same exact thing? Or as mentioned earlier, to sing “Follow the Prophet, He Knows the Way”? (Why not “Follow the Saviour, He *IS* the Way”?) Or how about the tradition of waving the white handkerchief for Pres. Hinckley? Seems a bit “personality centered”. That said, I think Warren Jeffs is a bad, bad man, and many good and faithful people have been sadly led astray. We ought to pray for them. The scary thing is that the LDS practice the same doctrine as the FLDS do in this respect: they believe their prophet can never lead them astray. Occasionally such a doctrine can produce very bad results, as it has with the FLDS people since Warren Jeffs usurped his father’s authority and then took over completely following his father’s death. The FLDS have not always had this cult of personality thing going. |
Just found this site, are you guys anti- or molly’s, just want to know here! Thanks, |
Brother Sam, I hope we are faithful and believing members of the church – while still recognizing our own humanity, limits, etc. I hope very much that none of us are antis and I’m not sure we’d want to be “mollys” either – since that term usually represents a sort of unthinking superficial orthodoxy. We pretty much allow anyone to comment – as long as they demonstrate a minimal level of willingness to communicate with sincerity and some modicum of friendliness. That means that non-Mormons and probably some antis are commenting here – maybe even regularly. |
I’ve come to the opinion that we have a need to follow President Hinckley that is pretty much a parallel to the ancient Israelites’ need to follow Moses. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and all the rest down to Pres Hinckley hold Moses’ seat. They wear the prophetic mantle of leadership. Not just as a mouth-piece, but real authority. Look what Jesus said about the wicked scribes and Pharisees in Matt 23:2-3: “Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.” Didn’t Joseph Smith sit, and doesn’t GBH today sit in Moses’ seat as much as or more so than the scribes and pharisees? If Israelites back then had to obey the wicked pharisees, how much more should we obey a righteous prophet. Gordon B. Hinckley is a Joseph Smith. And Joseph Smith was a Moses. Therefore I believe Gordon B. Hinckley is a Moses too. I don’t do a very good job of following, but hey, I need to give the man his props. |
It’s creepy because we know, in retrospect, that Warren Jeffs is extremely creepy. But I can see us making up a similar song about President Hinckley. It’s what we do. We believe that if children sing it, they incorporate it into their being. The Chinese did it with Mao, the Russians did it with Stalin, these guys did it, and so do we. |
#5, yeah I see a BIG difference between this fundy song and LDS hymns about following the prophet. This one is more of an ode to the Warren Jeffs cult of personality than showing respect to the so called ‘office’ in the priesthood he holds. I don’t see the LDS hymns extolling the quirks and mannerisms of those who are or have been President of the Church. |
Box (10): My children have come home from Primary with pictures of GBH that they have colored. I’ve never seen them come home with a colored picture of Jesus Christ. The Friend magazine sometimes shows pictures of GBH that children have drawn. It also contains “faith promoting” stories about GBH. Some people have framed photographs of GBH in their home, but you’d be hard pressed to find an evangelical Christian with a photograph of, say, Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, or Jimmy Swaggart on their walls in a prominent place. In recent years, the LDS church has indeed developed a cult of personality around GBH. It disturbs me, despite the fact I am a member in full fellowship and good standing. It doesn’t seem right. As for the hymns, see the links in the main post to a review of an old hymnal, which did in fact have songs as you describe. |
Well, lucky for us we don’t use the old hymnal. Looks like the Church is ahead of the curve in that respect. I don’t dispute that maybe there is some excessive zeal about GBH, but I sure don’t mind if people try to put him on a pedestal. Just like I don’t mind if my kids put their grandpa on a pedestal and draw and color pictures of him. They’re both good guys. Warren Jeffs is not. |
Box, Perhaps you missed it: I already said Warren Jeffs is a bad, bad man. My point was that the LDS church is not too far off from the FLDS in this matter of cult of personality. We believe in prophetic infallibility the same way the FLDS do. And that IS a problem. I do not mind when my children draw pictures of their grandfathers, either, but I do not assign them to color pictures of him in a group setting. How far of a stretch is it from the “excessive zeal about GBH” that you admit the church has, to the expressions of such zeal the FLDS may have, such as this children’s song? It is not a far stretch. Do you suppose if some ward’s primary wanted to sing a song about GBH that anyone would stop them? |
BTW Box, even if we don’t have songs about GBH, our church does sell videos and books about him. Not much different. |
Julie (1): Think Santa Claus. :) Do you really think Santa Claus would appear quite so jolly and kid-friendly if he was tanned and slender, like some SoCal pretty boy model? In our culture, fat=jolly, unfortunately. |
Give me an example of something bad that has happened from watching a video or reading a book or having a picture on your wall at home of the GBH? |
Latter-day Saints, by and large, do not believe in the infallibility of their prophets. Children in Latter-day Saint primary classes are just as likely to bring home a colored picture of a nameless figure/family as to bring home a colored picture of the prophet. They are also known to bring home colored pictures of Jesus Christ. Whether Evangelical Christians hang framed photographs of Billy Graham or other televangelists in their home is entirely irrelevant to whether it it appropriate for Latter-day Saints to hang framed pictures of current or past prophets of God in their home. Being interested in and honoring a living prophet is nothing bizarre given a belief in living prophets. Evangelical Christians do not believe in a need for living prophets giving direction to the body of believers and therefore would have no reason to hang a picture of any single preacher. Few Latter-day Saints, if any at all, worship or adore the living prophets. Implying that hanging a picture of the current or past First Presidency or prophets approaches this is simple misdirection. Enough things about life as a Latter-day Saint are odd to outsiders that there is no need to invent another one to make Latter-day Saints seem weird. Hanging a framed picture of a current or past prophet in a home is no more strange than hanging a picture of a current or past President of the United States or other prominent person. Being interested in someone to the extent of wishing to hang their picture in a home is cheesy, but not beyond the pale by any stretch of the imagination. |
John F. Do you really know people who hang photos of the current US presidency in their house? I don’t, and I don’t think it’s a good analogy to use in making your point here. |
I will also disagree with the former posts which said that having children sing songs about following the prophet or being reverent is cultic. If you want to define that as cultic, then you would have to define America at large as cultic since we sing America the Beautiful and The Star Spangled Banner. Or we could go into a groupies home and find Ozzie Osbourne or Motley Crue hanging on the wall. In fact, we play it on the radio 24-7, but somehow you don’t consider that to have any affect on people? Is this any different? No. Rather than judging based on what you think you see, why don’t you judge on what is. Warren Jeffs is not a Mormon. He went off and started his own little church and just happened to call it FLDS. The same way we have Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic, etc. And, no, the Mormons do not believe in infallibility of prophets. In fact, what is stated is that God will not let the prophet lead us astray. Well, we have plenty of watchdogs for that. They are called the apostles, the seventies, and on and on. It’s not one guy in charge. It’s many who are able to oversee should there be a problem. And should they see a problem with a prophet, they WILL not allow him to continue to be the prophet and neither would most of the members. Like all people in any culture there will always be some that will fall for anything but we Mormons do think for ourselves. Sorry we’re not much of a “Motley Crue” for you guys. All parents religious or not want to inspire their kids to believe in the things they do because for the most part we believe we have found what makes us happy and what will make them happy. You can be atheist and still be guilty of the same thing. There isn’t a thing wrong with parents wanting to teach their children good things. Worry about the ones teaching their children to bash other children’s heads with baseball bats or kicking the heck out of another girl at school. Those are the ones you really ought to focus on. |
If it’s not cultish when we do it, it’s not cultish when they do it. In their eyes, Warren Jeffs is the prophet. They will probably lose that belief in a sad and undeniable way, but the song was made up before he was charged with these crimes. Frankly, I don’t like the idea of teachings kids anything with songs. But you can’t have the opinion that teaching (ie brainwashing) them an idea through song is good, then pick and choose the ideas, or people. If the concept is sound, who decides how to use it? I find the idea that because “we” are right, it’s okay; they are wrong, so it’s not. Who died and made us God? What if they were just singing “Follow the Prophet” as we teach our children to sing? The only difference is we think, actually know, that the man’s a scumbag. They don’t. I actually have a picture of GWB and Laura on my wall (they sent it to me with a request for money, I garbaged the request and put up the picture). Several people have asked “How do you know President Bush?” Not my brightest friends, but it’s a true story. |
anne, I love the story about the GWB pic. I actually used to have a nice framed color 8×10 of George H.W. Bush that I was sent as a thank you for a small donation I made to his re-election campaign in 1992. These days it is somewhat embarrassing to admit that I donated to GHWB’s re-election bid, but I still have the photo, (albeit, not hanging on my wall these days). Also, yours is a lone voice of reason in this debate, I see. My point was never that Warren Jeffs is good man, or a role model, or a real prophet; only that the LDS church teaches a very similar position and indoctrinates children in like fashion. For what its worth, a good many FLDS people actually don’t like Warren Jeffs, but are afraid to say so, given that their homes are communally owned and that he has this nasty habit of reassigning families or evicting families from their homes. Thus, those who just want to live in peace keep their mouths shut. The FLDS weren’t always like they are now under Warren. In fact, before they fell under his “one man rule”, Warren’s father, Rulon Jeffs, was a pretty decent guy. Preceding him was a man called Uncle Roy, or Leroy Johnson, who was universally loved among the FLDS people. When Rulon was in the hospital as the result of a car crash, Warren slowly began to take over, and when his father died, Warren just took over fully, and he could because of their “one man rule” doctrine, which had only come into being in the early 1980′s. |
Km (19): A history lesson, before you embarrass yourself further. Warren Jeffs did not start the FLDS church. In fact, most of the people in the FLDS and in similar fundamentalist Mormon communities have NEVER been LDS. The fundamentalists trace their lineage back to the 1920′s, to the Priesthood Council, out of which grew the FLDS and the AUB (they split in the 1950s, I think), and in the 1980s, the FLDS further split, when the doctrine of “one man rule” was introduced. Those who agreed with following “one man” remained in the FLDS. Those who believed (like the LDS church) in a rule by priesthood quorum, split and founded a group called the Work, in a nearby community, who continue to be led not by one man, or one prophet, but rather by a Priesthood Council. These folks, as well as the AUB (who split from the FLDS in the 50s) do not have the control issues, unsavory practices, or cult-like “flavor” of the FLDS. Also, Km, how exactly is it that a seventy can overrule the president of the LDS church? I agree that the LDS church is not a “one man rule” scenario like the FLDS, but it is a stretch to say that a seventy who sees things going amuck has any authority to change things. |
I am such a poor writer. I need to clarify my comment in 22. Most present members of the fundamentalist groups have never been LDS members. But all of the members of the Priesthood Council of the 1920′s through the 1940′s were upstanding members of the LDS church, some of whom personally had been friends of Joseph F. Smith, Wilford Wooduff, and John Taylor. Some of these men were ex’d in the 1940′s, and they continued to practice their faith, and continued to practice plural marriage, outside the church, based on authority they believe was given to several men by John Taylor in 1886, to continue the practice if ever the church gave it up. These days, except for the older folks, most fundamentalists have never been members of the LDS church, having instead been born into one of the fundamentalist Mormon groups. They do have a few converts from the LDS church from time to time, though there is no active proselyting work on behalf of the fundamentalists. |
It is not clear if authority was given by John Taylor or not. This is not well documented, was claimed to be the case decades after the fact, and should probably always carried a disclaimer such as “alleged” or “claimed” with it. |
arj: I figure that where I said “based on authority they believe was given to several men by John Taylor in 1886…” disclaims it pretty well. |
Box 16: Give me an example of something bad that has happened from children singing a song about their prophet. In reality, nothing “bad” will happen solely because LDS kids sing “follow the prophet, he knows the way” nor will anything bad directly happen because FLDS wee ones sing “We Love You Uncle Warren,” just as nothing bad will happen if you and I joined together in a rousing chorus of “For He’s a Jolly Good Fellow” the next time we have an audience with President Hinckley. The point was that if it is fair to say the FLDS have developed a personality cult around Uncle Warren (true), then it is fair to say the LDS have developed a personality cult around President Hinckley (also true). As Anne said, if a behavior is cultic in one instance, it is equally cultic in another. |
Ben, We indoctrinate in our children a desire to believe the prophet. That song creates a desire to honor Warren Jeffs. That is a fundamental difference that you seem incapable of understanding or acknowledgin in your extended apology for modern polygamy. |
Ben There, I apologize. I misread your original comment. |
John C: We do it, it’s right. They do it, it’s wrong. You’re full of crap. |
So what’s the melody like? I hear a Gilbert-and-Sullivan-esque march, but maybe I’m alone in that. |
No Prob, arJ. I do try to be careful, because while I do sympathize with the fundamentalists and their desire to practice their religion unmolested (nothing more nor nothing less than what we in the LDS church desire), I am not so sure their claims to priesthood authority are solid. But that has nothing to do with civil rights and freedom of religion. |
John 27, I really hate to respond to you, but what the hades….why not?
Interpreted: we indoctrinate our children to believe Gordon B. Hinckley. Okay, I agree with you on this!
And just who do you suppose the prophet of the FLDS is???? Well, how about that! WE LDS indoctrinate our children to revere and honour OUR prophet, and the FLDS indoctrinate their children to revere and honour THEIR prophet! Wow. Amazing. What next? You’re going to tell us that the Catholic church teaches its children to revere and honour the Pope!? |
Anne 29, you crack me up. I love your posts and comments, all the time. |
annegb, Anne and Ben, |
Please allow me to restate, If they have a song entitled, “When the prophet tells you to marry your 50-year-old uncle, it isn’t incest or statutory rape; it’s inspiration!” I will agree with you that we have songs that also talk about the role of the prophet (albeit, not in those terms). We don’t have a song that describes Gordon B. Hinckley bodily (and, really, thank goodness) and then says honor him. We simply don’t. |
John C: I understand your point. However, they do not have a song about marrying your 50-year-old uncle. They have a song that honours their prophet, in whatever imperfect but apparently sincere way they deem appropriate. We have songs that honour Joseph Smith (“Praise to the Man”), even if we don’t have one that specifically sings about Gordon B. Hinckley. I seem to recall a big birthday party for GBH recently that was broadcast on television. How many other church members have their birthday parties televised? Some people I know found that a bit too personality-centered and somewhat disturbing. Let’s just be honest: the LDS people love GBH and revere him, and manifest it in many ways that while not exactly the same as this little children’s song, they at least compare in intent and result, namely an increased devotion to GBH. Though it is not a complete parallel, with respect to your question, my thoughts turned to “Our Bishop” (135 in the current children’s songbook), which has some similar lines to “We Love You Uncle Warren”: Busy as a man can be, I admit it’s a slight stretch, though similar. Are we ready to say that we create a Bishop Personality Cult when our children sing this song? Look, I am no more comfortable with the fact that little FLDS kids allegedly sing this song (what is the source, anyway?) than the next guy: I don’t tend to like anything that focuses attention on a man in particular. I am only trying to make the point (very poorly, apparently) that the doctrine about prophets and the high esteem in which they are held is practically identical in the FLDS and LDS churches. No, we don’t have a song that described GBH’s personal attributes, but that is a minor detail. The doctrine is the same, it just happens to manifest itself differently. Warren S. Jeffs is a bad man. But there will be a time when he is no longer the prophet of the FLDS. I think after he goes away, the FLDS will return to being the rather normal people they were prior to his power-grab. Now excuse me, I am off to compose the next Primary Hit: “The Favorite Foods of the Prophets” (“Adam was the first one/He munched on twigs and nuts…”). I guarantee your kids will be singing it next year; it will be way bigger than “Popcorn Popping”. |
Ben There “They do have a few converts from the LDS church from time to time, though there is no active proselyting work on behalf of the fundamentalists.” Um- there was a big flap some years back in my 99.9% Mormon hometown regarding some actively recruiting fundamentalists. Be careful with such blithe disclaimers. |
Doc: My mistake. I should have said “currently, there is no active…” (I thought by using the word active I was conveying the idea of “present day”). The FLDS do not have any formal proselyting program. Centennial Park has no active formal proselyting program. Presently, neither do the AUB or the Kingstons or the Lebarons. Other fundamentalists, particularly the AUB, were at one time quite active in proselyting (at least as much so as we LDS), especially after the priesthood ban was lifted, and around the time the temple ceremonies were changed in 1990. In the mid-late 90′s, the fundy True and Living Church (TLC) founded by Jim Harmston was doing some very active proselyting work. They stopped around 2001, and declared that no further missionary activity was authorized by the Lord. Sorry for not being clearer, Doc. |
Thank you danithew, I forgot to say there are many of us between anti and molly’s too. Comment about the song: |
Alright Paula (#18) — how about a rock star, actor, or other famous person. Surely you are aware that people put pictures of such people up in their house. That is all fine, but it is just weird if people put up a picture of a religious leader in their house, and it means that they are worshiping that religious leader, right? |
so are we all taught not to judge? If so then why not leave this man alone? have you ever met him? we know what the media says is never true. why not worry about making ourselves better. and let God be the judge. |
We have the right to have an opinion. If we took all criminals and let God judge them, the world would go to hell in a handbasket. This guy is a real creep. A member of his flock offered a friend of ours a young girl as a reward for fixing his car. These guys need to be stopped. |