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Funny you mention FARMS personnel shaking their heads at Pres. Packer. I remember during my stint at FARMS being present when a couple of top personnel at FARMS were commenting that he had apparently made some remarks to the effect that he believed that FARMS was trying to “make money off of the general authorities”. I was surprised that they would be talking about an apostle that way, but then again maybe they were surprised that an apostle had apparently made those types of comments about them (FARMS). |
Thank you for posting these talks, I will enjoy reading them. I have always liked President Packer, but from time to time I have felt uncomfortable with his approach. I like your comment about judging him while he is at his best. Wouldn’t it be great if we all did that for each other? |
That’s a great story. I had a good experience at FARMS for the most part, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he said that; he wasn’t the only one who felt that way, I’m sure. |
quonset, I definitely know what you’re talking about. Pres. Packer is my favorite apostle, but he’s an unlikely favorite, since I don’t normally gravitate towards people who make the kinds of statements he has occasionally made. But everyone has their context, and I hope you read up on him some more; there is an incredible amount to love and admire about him. |
Great post, Dan. I have nostalgic fondness for Boyd Packer. When I was a kid growing up in the DC metropolitan area, we used to go to the chapel to listen to general conference (if I recall correctly, it was transmitted via telephone by placing the phone receiver in a coupler that transmitted the audio to the speaker system). I learned to recognize all of the apostles of that time by their voice. Boyd Packer, Gordon Hinckley, Thomas Monson, and Lowell Perry are the only remaining GA’s from that era whom I can recognize by voice. That said, Boyd Packer will have to be a bit more vocal about his backtracking if he expects me to have enthusiasm for his approach. Specifically, I’d like to see some more vocal backtracking on how church history should be faith promoting. It’s not that I harbor a grudge, it’s that his un-repudiated words on the matter continue to do harm. In my opinion, when you advance the notion that all church history should be faithful history, you advance Satan’s work. It’s been nearly 180 years since the church was founded, and the church just barely seems to be coming to grips with the fact that neither deceiving people by covering up supposedly embarrassing incidents nor assassinating the characters of those who expose them advances the missions of the church. The real problem, of course, is bigger than Boyd Packer or faithful church history or lying for the Lord. Specifically, the conservatives or orthodox leaders of the church often express their personal beliefs to large church gatherings, while liberal and less orthodox church leaders keep their ideas to themselves. This gives the impression that the church is much more conservative than it actually is, it isolates members who don’t walk in lock-step with every word that comes out of Utah, and it stifles a lot of constructive discussion. |
I know- his talk “The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than The Intellect” is here, and I wish people would ignore everything in that talk except his story about President Kimball (which is amazing). He was definitely not the only one in that mindset at the time, but I hope he realizes what Elder Oaks said recently, that it’s time to present Church history warts and all. |
While I’m not at liberty to share the details, I’m aware of a couple who had opportunity to discuss homosexuality with several general authorities. One leader, who’s public behavior led them to believe he would be especially compassionate, was completely unwilling to listen to their concerns. Another leader, who’s public words and behavior led them to expect hostility, turned out to be deeply and genuinely concerned with trying to better understand the subject. This leader, who’s compassion and search for understanding so surprised them, was none other than Boyd K. Packer. |
Somewhat related to this topic is the fact that the Church has published the transcript of President Packer’s interview with Helen Whitney. They admit to editing it, but I found it odd that they specifically edited the only part that was put on the air, in which he (somewhat jokingly perhaps) refused to confirm that he had said what she quoted him as having said. The one thing we can confirm that he said from the documentary is basically missing. In any case he comes off much better if you read the entire interview than he did in the snippet shown in the documentary. |
Thanks for this post. I love President Packer. And Nick, thanks for sharing that tidbit. |
Good post Dan. Another reason why it might pay for people to understand Pres. Packer is that statistically he stands a good chance of becoming President of the Church someday. |
nice post Dan. I must say that I have not formed my opinion of President Packer, even to this day. I never had a negative impression of him from his talks, but rather from others around me who whispered this or that about his style. Frankly President Packer is a kindler gentler Apostle than many previous to him. I probably would have a hard time being around Harold B. Lee, especially if the comment attributed to him about BYU and blacks is accurate. I’ve learned from hard experience that members of the church, from the highest positions to the lowest all bring their own personalities into their callings. |
My dad was in the Marriott Center during that talk Dan. It was not a particularly large gathering and people were sort of spread out over an entire half of the stadium. The local presiding authority asked those in attendance to move toward the center and closer to the front, since Pres. Packer and the others were hoping to lessen the impersonalness of the location. The first time, a few people moved. But the vast majority simply ignored the request. Before things actually got started, the request was repeated several times with no better results. When it was Pres. Packer’s turn to speak. He came to the podium, regarded the audience, and said something to the effect (paraphrasing): “I had prepared a message to present to you. But the Spirit simply is not right here to give it. So I have some other things to say instead.” He then proceeded to give some remarks. My dad felt that the incident reflected very poorly on the audience. He regarded it as a shameful episode of petty disobedience by those who cared more about their damn parking spot than hearing the word of God from His own earthly representative. I’ve seen this kind of small-mindedness in the Marriott Center countless times. Folks who can’t bolt from the building fast enough. Those who skip the spiritual moment of the closing hymn to obnoxiously run for their cars. You wonder what they were thinking about during the meeting. Certainly not the message. I wonder if it even registered. I think Pres. Packer was absolutely correct in this incident. The spirit of obedience and receptiveness was utterly absent from the gathering. Like Saul who spared the livestock of Israel’s enemies in contravention of explicit prophetic instruction, I think those there needed to learn that obedience is better than sacrifice, or getting home 15 minutes early. In the Philippines, you would have none of this disgraceful arrogance and complacency on the part of the membership. I’m sorry to say, that occasionally the membership in Provo can be an utter embarrassment to our Church. I find it more likely that your friend from FARMS was expressing a bruised ego rather than legitimate grievances. |
Nick (7), your story is typical in that so many of us have a certain image of Pres. Packer, but in reality, he is much more complex and thoughtful than we expect him to be. quonset and Dan (2, 11), Seth, thanks for the details on that conference at the Marriott Center. I wish I had been there; I remember whan I heard about it, I had the opposite response of people who were bothered about it. I thought it was really cool. lol |
Dan, about Harold B. Lee… We had Professor Paulsen for our World Religions class at BYU. He related a story from back when he was an informal sort of army chaplain for LDS service members in Korea during the Korean War. Back then, Harold B. Lee was still an Apostle and he traveled to Korea for the purpose of meeting with the LDS soldiers serving their. Apparently, some teaching of the Gospel had been happening, not with fellow soldiers, but with the local Koreans, and there was a small core of faithful native Koreans. Harold B. Lee had come to Korea to meet with American Mormon soldiers. Bro. Paulsen suggested that they meet with the Korean saints as well. So they did. Bro. Paulsen relates that, that night, he shared a tent with Elder Lee. It was very hot and both of them were talking before going to sleep. Elder Lee seemed troubled. He basically said he had been mistaken. “Bro. Paulsen, I have met these people (the Koreans), and they AREN”T a ‘dark and loathsome people!’ The light of Christ is in their eyes!” He seemed very much shaken up about it. We are, all in all, just human beings. And no man knows everything. |
Incidentally, I’m not sure whether it was appropriate to share that. Bro. Paulsen shared it with the entire class, so I doubt he meant it to be a secret. But I know that these sort of second-hand accounts can start faith promoting rumors, or worse. It was almost ten years ago that I heard the story. |
Seth, Of course it was appropriate; it shows how our leaders have had to work through and improve upon their own understanding over time. |
I agree that BKP is too frequently misjudged/misunderstood. I remember a time feeling that he was a bit of an absolutist, when I came across his GC talk “Atonement, Agency, and Accountability” in which he very candidly acknowledges, “I seldom use the word absolute. It seldom fits.” No question there are things he’s said that make me cringe, but most often I’ve found that his wisdom far outweighs his weakness. |
Seth, Thanks for sharing that.
I really wonder if that was Harold B. Lee’s first ever visit to a non-white country. |
Dan (18), That’s an important point, because it honestly may have been. I know from personal experience that it’s very easy for good people to formulate very erroneous ideas about different people simply for not having interacted with them. I am probably the worst offender I know, in this regard. |
Interesting that this came up… I was just reading my August Ensign and could not believe how frequently BKP was quotes in comparison to other GAs. |
I don’t know Seth, I’m one of those guys who always refused the invitation to move to the center in the Marriott Center, and it had nothing to do with running out to my car before the closing hymn. I arrange my schedule and take the time to arrive early to an event. One of the rewards of coming early is the chance to choose where I want to sit. And I want to sit on the aisle so I only have one person rubbing shoulder to shoulder instead of two. So when someone stands up before the meeting and says, “Please move to the center of the section so those who come later don’t have to step over people” my immediate thought is why should the tardy guy get the reward? If he doesn’t want to step over people then tell him to not be late. |
I’m with KLC. I’ve always liked the edge seat and have always grumbled when asked to move to the center. It is assumed that people sit close to the exists just so they can get to their cars quicker. Perhaps church leadership should rethink the design of chapels if they don’t like where people choose to sit. |
Dan, #19, It is a very good point, and perhaps my own recalcitrance to Harold B. Lee stems from not knowing him in person but judging him by his comments. I’m sure if I knew him in person I would probably find him to be a really good guy. Additionally, for the longest time I was always apprehensive about going to New York City. The way the city has been portrayed in various media productions is a city that I didn’t think I would want to ever see. But one day I decided to go to New York to meet a woman (who later became my wife). I took the train in, and the moment I stepped out of the subway onto Broadway and 65th Street, I knew I loved the City. Now I live here in NYC and I don’t think I could like any other city, at least in America. |
It is interesting to note that when Richard Bushman sought a blessing before writing Rough Stone Rolling , he received it from none other than Elder Packer. My initial impression is that, if I were to write a book that I knew might be received with distrust or discomfort by Church members and particularly Church leaders, I would not have gone to Elder Packer for a blessing (I think Elder Oaks or Elder Holland would be wiser). However, Bro. Bushman likely knows the GAs more personally than I do, and I am sure that his choice was deliberate and wise. Elder Packer allegedly appreciated and enjoyed a copy of the book when it was delivered to him. This comes from Richard Bushman’s recent diary published through Greg Kofford Books. Another thing to remember about Elder Packer is that he is one of the strongest advocates of CES, having been a former employee before his call as a GA. From my understanding from sources within the department, he is personally responsible for the current CES “occupation” (my word) of the BYU Religion department. There are those who believe this is a negative development in the further development of BYU religious studies and the university as a whole. (raises hand) |
I was able, I think, to gain a greater appreciation of Pres. Packer by reading his biography. Same thing with Elder McConkie. |
I’ve been searching for years for a quote I heard from Elder Packer. It goes something like, “are you tired, are you discouraged, are you ill?” Then he added, “most of the work of the church is done by people who are tired or discouraged or ill.” That’s not exact, of course, but it struck me and I can’t find it. I had 20 years of old Ensigns and couldn’t find it. Anybody heard that quote? |
Ann, I haven’t seen that quote, but it definitely sounds like something he might say. Julie, I haven’t read either of their biographies yet (I just bought the McConkie biography), but I have a close friend who gained a huge amount of respect for Elder McConkie after reading his biography. |
“my immediate thought is why should the tardy guy get the reward? If he doesn’t want to step over people then tell him to not be late.” Very Christlike response. Not that I haven’t had the same thought… |
I’ve been searching for years for a quote I heard from Elder Packer. It goes something like, “are you tired, are you discouraged, are you ill?†Then he added, “most of the work of the church is done by people who are tired or discouraged or ill.†It sounds similar to a story told about LeBaron Russell Briggs. “There is a legend at Harvard that the late LeBaron Russell Briggs, long the beloved dean of the college, once asked a student why he had failed to complete an assignment. ‘I wasn’t feeling very well, sir,’ said the student. ‘Mr. Smith,’ said the dean, ‘I think in time you may perhaps find that most of the work in the world is done by people who aren’t feeling very well.’” Vaughn J. Featherstone related the anecdote here and Jeffrey R. Holland repeated it here. |
Nick, Thanks for sharing that anecdote about President Packer. I have never met the man, and I do not agree with some statements he has made in his talks. However, it is clear to me that he has faith in the redeeming power of Jesus and His Atonement and only kindness and encouragement for those of us who have fallen short, sometimes by a long way. Interestingly, I believe the same thing about President Benson. |