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It would be sort of exclusionistic to assume that leaders of other churches, no matter what they call themselves, do not receive guidance from God about their flocks. |
You can occasionally catch LDS general authorities in these kind of personalized moments. My wife once chatted with Richard G. Scott for about 10 to 15 minutes while he was watching some of his grandkids playing. My wife and I also saw Thomas S. Monson at our friend’s wedding reception (she was marrying his grandson). He was chatting away with family, the new inlaws, and some well-wishers. We didn’t approach him since we didn’t want to intrude on his family time. Nice anecdote about Frederick Larson. He seems like an admirable sort of person. |
I wonder if Fred Larson’s views are exclusive at all – does he claim his church/group is the “only true church” or is he willing to view President Hinckley as a prophet as well? I’m not trying to be critical at all of the post in asking this question – it’s just something I’m wondering. |
danithew, my understanding is that he views a multiplicity of prophets as proper now, just as it was in Old Testament times. I also understand him to believe that his notion of Zion encompasses a lot larger group than simply the membership (current and future) of his own church. |
I agree with annegb’s comment #1. Everyone can receive heavenly guidance for their sphere of influence. But there’s something oogie about the various splinter groups. And it’s rather interesting to now see that there are cascading splits from the split-off groups. Kind of like what the Protestants have been doing for a few hundred years. It’s the “Protestant-izing” of Mormonism. I’m curious as to the history of the apostles between the death of Joseph Smith Jr, and the trek west. Which apostles followed Brigham Young after Joseph Smith’s death, and which apostles went with splinter groups? |
A few years ago, I attended the MHA conference at Kirtland, where I had two or three opportunities to chat and interact with Grant McMurray, then the president of the RLDS/CoC. I was truly impressed. He was warm, engaging, and genuinely likeable. I was left with no doubt of the sincerety of his care and concern for his own stewardship, as well as his respect for other faiths. I have to wonder about the term, “splinter groups.” I’m not sure I’ve ever heard this phrase, outside of LDS references to other groups which claim origin from the Mormon restoration. Despite the miniscule size implied by “splinter,” the phrase seems to be applied to every non-LDS restorationist group, regardless of size or importance. I can’t help but think it’s intentional, as a way of demeaning such groups (sort of like calling them all “oogie,” whatever that exactly means). While the group which followed the Twelve to the West was the largest post-martyrdom faction, it was still less than half of the church which Joseph Smith had presided over. |
Splinter group is a term that is also applied to Protestant churches in relation to the Catholic Church. DKL, I agree with you that God is providing other religious leaders inspiration in the stewardship over their flocks. This is only natural considering that God loves all his children. They will all still need to be baptized by the priesthood found only in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, however, in order to accept the full gift of the Atonement such that they can live in God’s presence again. |
I’m sure some of the members of other restorationist churches would say you still need to be baptized by teh priesthood authority found only in *their* churches, john f., so that *you* can accept “the full gift of the Atonement such that *you* can live in deity’s presence again.” ;-) I’ve never heard a Catholic refer to other churches as “splinter groups,” but I’m no expert on Catholicism. |
Fascinating post, DKL. I paid close attention to Fred Larson (seated on the stand) during Ron Esplin’s Presidential Address at MHA (which was on Brigham Young’s succession in the Presidency), and was impressed with the fact that he took notes and seemed genuinely interested in Esplin’s comments. |
Thank you for posting this, DKL. I find value in listening to others that believe in Joseph Smith’s legacy, even if their interpretation is different than mine. Although I’m a Brighamite, I can see why some people didn’t want to follow him. |
john f, there is this question of where the authority comes from with all restoration churches. This need not be understood in an exclusive sense. For example, the RLDS church and the Temple Lot church for a time recognized each other’s priesthoods as being legally constituted. Furthermore, the recent doctrinal statement by the Pope that asserts the Catholic claim to be the only true church also recognizes that the other orthodox churches have a legally constituted priesthood. We Utah Mormons seem to understand this authority in an exclusive sense, but whether this is doctrinally necessary may well be a more open question than many Mormons suppose. For my part, I’m confident enough in the truth of my church that I don’t feel the need to constantly remind people that I think its ordinances are uniquely salvific. The way I see it, when you’re among Mormons or those schooled in Mormonism, saying, “I belong to the Mormon church, and it has the only fully legitimate priesthood authority on earth” is like saying to a lawyer, “I signed that contract, and I agree to execute it in good faith.” I.e., it’s already understood as implied, so pushing the issue seems a bit defensive. Nick, I agree that I don’t like the term splinter group. I certainly wouldn’t want to hear the Utah church described in those terms. I’d love to meet Grant McMurray. Everyone I’ve ever heard talk about him has nothing but good things to say. |
annegb and Bookslinger, I agree. Seth R, that may be true for you people who live out west. The chances that I’ll catch a GA in Boston in a candid moment are pretty slim. Must be that prophecy by Wilford Woodruff about the destruction of Boston… Christopher, I was impressed by that, too. I was also pleased that they asked him to sit on the stand during the presidential address. David, I’m glad you find it interesting. I’m also fascinated by others who follow Joseph’s legacy. Brigham himself showed an active interest in other that attempted were carring on Joseph’s legacy. |
If you haven’t already done so, when you visit Independence, go to the visitor center of the Church of Christ that owns the temple lot. One of their apostles will personally explain their beliefs to you. |
I am curious about Nick Literski’s statement, “While the group which followed the Twelve to the West was the largest post-martyrdom faction, it was still less than half of the church which Joseph Smith had presided over.” What are the head counts for the church before Joseph Smith’s death and in the decade after? |
What are the head counts for the church before Joseph Smith’s death and in the decade after? John, headcount by decade is tricky because new converts were always coming in. But Nauvoo’s population was about 12,000 people. Winter Quarters never had more than 3,500. Of course, there were other settlements around both cities, but the difference in number between those who lived in Nauvoo and those who even made it across Iowa indicates that we experienced some serious leakage. I believe Nick is correct. |
That’s right, Mark. I don’t know the exact numbers either, but there were also many saints who remained in Ohio and Missouri. A very large contingent followed Sydney, but lost faith in him within about 3 years. But very few of them took up with Brigham. Most of them took up with the reorganization a few years later. |
Nice Post DKL. One key population of the Church at the time of the Martyrdom is the 30K+ members in the UK who outnumbered the US saints. This is a number to keep in mind when discussing this issue. |
I looked up what was readily available. Here’s a bit from the Institute manual Church History in the Fulness of Times, p. 319: Throughout the fall of 1846, the nearly twelve thousand Latter-day Saints in various parts of the Midwest prepared for winter the best ways they could. The headquarters of the Church was at Winter Quarters in Indian territory, where almost four thousand Saints resided by the end of the year. Another twenty-five hundred were camped on Pottawattomie Indian lands on the east side of the Missouri River. An estimated seven hundred people were at Mount Pisgah, six hundred at Garden Grove, at least a thousand were spread thoughout other parts of Iowa, and five hundred were in the Mormon Battalion on their way to California. Many Saints gathered for the winter in Mississippi River towns; the Mormon population in St. Louis swelled to fifteen hundred. A footnote attributes this information to Richard Edmond Bennett, “Mormons at the Missouri: A History of the Latter-day Saints at Winter Quarters and at Kanesville, 1846-52–A Study in American Overland Trail Migration,” Ph.D. diss, Wayne State University, 1984, pp. 173-175. Leaving out the 1,500 in St. Louis, it looks like 4,000+2,500+700+600+1000+500, over 9,000 in the Midwest under the leadership of the Quorum of the Twelve. Then, there was the Church in England. Page 304 of the Institute manual claims says there were 11,000 members there in 1845, and that mission was very much the Twelve’s domain. From pages 347-348 of the Institute manual, The rich harvest of 1849 and the economic boost of the gold rush generated confidence for the Church to gather the ten thousand Saints still in the Missouri Valley, the hundreds still in branches scattered throughout the eastern states, and the thirty thousand members of the Church in England.
That the Utah-bound church under the Quorum of the Twelve was still bringing in thousands of converts complicates the accounting, but it is also another indication of the demographic robustness of the Utah church. I’ll need to see some substantive numbers indicating something contrary to the picture the Institute manual portrays before I can consider that the Utah church was not that of most of the Saints who were led by Joseph Smith. |
Ronald K. Esplin’s essay, “Joseph, Brigham and the Twelve: A Succession of Continuity,” (BYU Studies 21 no. 3 Summer 1981) page 333, footnote 111, indicates that “about half” followed Brigham. |
Ronald K. Esplin’s essay, “Joseph, Brigham and the Twelve: A Succession of Continuity,” (BYU Studies 21 no. 3 Summer 1981) page 333, footnote 111, indicates that “about half” followed Brigham. While not an exhaustive analysis, the indication would not be the kind of vast majority that some suggest. |
Nick, thanks for that reference. (Here’s a link to the PDF.) The footnote estimates the 1844 worldwide church membership to have been around 40,000. There are many interesting things in that article, particularly Joseph Smith III’s views on succession and those printed in the Whitmerite publication The Return. |
Between Joseph Smith’s death and the trek west, did any of the 12 go with any of the splinter groups, or did all stay with Brigham? Does anyone know off the top of their head, or will I need to read volume 6 or 7 of “History of the Church” ? |
Bookslinger–Off the top of my head, not all of the 12 followed BY. Lyman Wight went to Texas, while William Smith and John E. Page joined the Strangites. There may have been others that I’ve missed. Check out Quinn’s chapter 6 “Other Succession Options” in _Hierarchy_, vol. 1 for a reliable source. |
[...] In my post on an audience with the prophet of the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Bookslinger asked how many of the apostles adhered to Brigham’s ascendancy and how many follow…. [...] |
re: “splinter groups”—it turns out the phrase is not only not unique to Mormonism, but not unique to Christianity. I was reading Michael Chabon’s “The Yiddish Policeman’s Union” on the bus to work this morning, and came across this on p. 43: Writing of “small Orthodox sects,” Chabon says, “The construction of a prayer house at St. Cyril by the splinter from a splinter of a sect from Lisianski . . . .” I haven’t bothered running a LEXIS search in news databases, but it would be interesting to know how the news uses the term. (And I highly recommend Chabon’s book, or at least the first roughly hundred pages I’ve read so far.) |