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Such a fun review that I’ll share it with my husband. |
All this is wishful thinking and why would you think the theatre would be packed in Utah? Read just one of the many things we are hearing about the movie “September Dawn” Helen, Now let me tell you where I live just 1.5 blocks from the Mormon temple in Nauvoo, IL aka “Mormon Mecca”. We were not going to get the movie “SEPTEMBER DAWN” in a little area like this…However, there was such an out cry that it is opening on September 14th in Burlington, IA and the people of Hancock County and surrounding areas will fill the theatre every night! So don’t hold your breathe for this movie to go away anytime soon! There are lots of people out there just like me, who want the Mormon Church to release those they murdered to their families! And this movie is bringing forth information to Americans, that most have never heard of before “Mountain Meadows Massacre” September 11, 1857 of the Fancher-Baker wagon train! My husband Rocky and I will just be getting back to Nauvoo (the day before the movie opens) from “Mountain Meadows” the grave site of those murdered by the Mormon Priesthood! We will be there as invited guests of the descendants of those that were murdered for no reason whatsoever, except they were crossing the country from AK to CA! Write all the stuff you would like but you can’t hide the TRUTH and longer! |
“why would you think the theatre would be packed in Utah?” Helen, I think if you check Matt B.’s profile, he lives in Washington, D.C. Also, if I read him correctly, he’s commenting on the movie rather than whether or not the Mountain Meadows Massacre happened. In other words, he doesn’t appear to be trying to hide “the TRUTH.” Nice review, Matt. |
Helen, Don’t kid yourself; you’re not going to that movie to “see the truth;” you’re going to see September Dawn because you are hoping it will help you feel good about yourself in relation to others. It’s really sad that your Christianity compels you to seek feelings of self-righteousness by paying money to see mawkish and melodramatic depictions of other people’s sins, but hey- whatever works for you. |
Helen, |
Here is the TRUTH from an article that appeared in the local newspaper Nauvoo, IL The Nauvoo New Independent August 15, 2007 VIEW FROM THE CHRISTIAN VISITORS CENTER By ROCKY HULSE “MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE HORROR CONTINUES 150 YEARS LATER” |
Helen - I appreciate your concern, but as Dan noted, I’m not denying that the massacre happened. Rather, I’m pointing out that September Dawn is a pungent piece of cinematic hackery. Not quite the same thing. By the way, we’re not so much a fan of the cut and pasting here; I’ve cut down much of your article and replaced it with a link. |
This was an article written by my husband in the local newspaper here in Nauvoo, IL. What would have preferred I do retype the entire article which puts forth facts? |
Helen - I think it’s great that you are willing to stand up for what you believe. You clearly have great faith in Christ, yet you expend so much energy tearing away at the Mormon church. It seems so… wasteful Then stood there up one in the Council… named Gamaliel…and commanded to put the Apostles forth a little space, and said unto them, Ye Men of Israel, …Refrain from these men, and let them alone; for if this Counsel or this Work be of men, it will come to nought; but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it, lest happily ye be found even to fight against God [Acts 5:34-35,38-39]. |
If the Fancher Party was traveling from Alaska to California, they took a very wrong turn somewhere. |
Helen, The reason why you are receiving these types of letters is because a small portion of the population hates “Mormonism” and appreciates anything that puts Mormons in the worst possible light. Well-known film critic Roger Ebert wrote in his review of this film, “The Mormons are presented in no better light than Nazis and Japanese were in Hollywood’s World War II films.” What you are praising, Helen, is recognized by virtually everyone else as propaganda. Not exactly Christian behavior. |
Helen, |
I could flood this site with emails from those that have seem the movie and more that are planning to go see it. Now, Helen, surely you realize that any crappy movie will be able to find a few appreciative audience members, either because they too have an axe to grind, or (which is more likely) their sense of taste is all in their mouths. The site for the Book of Mormon Movie had tons of comments posted about how powerful the film was, when in reality the BOMM is possibly the worst thing ever committed to photosensitive film. It only had power to nauseate. Even though a few crackpots enjoyed the ego-massage of this poorly made film does not mean it had any real merit. Look at the overwhelming reaction by critics! You sound like someone with a voice in the anti-/ex-Mormon community. So let me beg of you to encourage only the very best propaganda from now on: as members of the world’s fastest-growing cult, surely we deserve higher production values than this. It doesn’t look like your crowd is even really trying. Wishing you increased success in your future faith-mongering! |
Helen, even historian Will Bagley thought the movie was crappy and unfair. You know, the historian who wrote a book on Mountain Meadows? And not a book friendly to the Mormons either. He is one of the primary advocates for the idea that Brigham Young personally ordered the massacre. The interview I heard him speaking in, he accused the Church of “moral cowardice” in failing to own up to the hierarchy’s involvement in the killings. His book has been attacked on FARMS and FAIR for one-sided research. Yet he is, nonetheless, regarded as one of the top scholars on the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Basically, the anti-Mormons love this guy, and quote his book regularly. And even he thought the movie was unfair! |
I have to say, I am disturbed by the response to Helen’s post. This was not really the place for her to comment (a DAMU site would have been better), but the responses are ALL aimed at her and show about as much charity as Mr. Cain did in his depiction of a historical tragedy. |
Helen, if you are still monitoring this thread, I wonder whether you could clarify something for me. Your husband’s article talks about the desire of the Fancher descendants to properly bury their dead, which he says the Church has refused to allow. I would like to understand exactly what they have proposed that has been denied. My understanding was that the Fancher descendants absolutely did *not* want the bones of their ancestors disturbed in any way, and they were angered a few years ago when a backhoe accidentally brought some of the bones to light. (Those particular bones have been reburied by the descendants.) So everything I’ve seen suggests that they do not want the bones disturbed. I am therefore surprised at the assertion that they want to excavate the bones for reburial (in Arkansas?). I’m hoping you can clear this up for me. |
Margaret: Please don’t send Helen to those of us over in the DAMU. We dislike Bible-banging trolls, as the logic of rejecting Mormonism while accepting evangelical Christianity escapes us. The movie has been panned far and wide, but the NY Post review is the funniest of them all. |
Check out the website of the descendants “Mountain Meadows Massacre” Perhaps a thing know as “debate” or “discussion” can take place, instead of just name calling? |
Listen to the words of this song: |
Are there fires made with buffalo chips in this movie? |
Helen, It seems rather hypocritical of you to accuse Mormons of “name calling”, considering the inflammatory and horribly biased content of the several links you’ve provided on this thread. It appears to me that you believe all Mormons are either evil zealots or ignorant dupes. Would you say that’s the case? Or do you believe that there are intelligent Mormons who honestly believe in the restored gospel and who know as much, or more, than you do about LDS history? |
Dear Friends, Don’t feed the trolls. Love, |
Moving back to my original question–which I really would like answered: What does happen to movies that flop so spectacularly? Why would a video rental place even buy copies? Does international marketing kick in? I suppose some desperate cable channel would broadcast it. (Even _The R.M._ and _The Hometeachers_ made it onto local cable in UTah.) And what will happen to Jon Voight’s career? Can you do that kind of caricature and still find work? Danithew–I think this movie IS a fire made of buffalo chips. And it will actually burn. |
Margaret, Have you seen Anaconda? If Jon Voight’s career can survive that mess, it will survive this one. |
How can this be bias, it is from the Church owned newspaper? Mountain Meadows: Church asked to turn over site, take names off records Church asked to turn over site, take names off record |
Helen, The Deseret News article you linked says nothing about Fancher “descendants [trying] for years to be granted access to these mass graves to properly honor and bury their dead,” as Rocky claims. In fact, it says that the largest organization of Mountain Meadows descendants aren’t asking for anything but “reconciliation, love and forgiveness.” Did I read the same article you did? Or perhaps you read it with your “Mormon Priesthood murderers” glasses on…. |
Helen, ¡Viva la TRUTH! |
Margaret, Jon Voight’s career will continue on as it has been. He will find an occasional role as some duplicitous bad guy and so on. He’s got enough good connections in Hollywood that he will be just fine. Besides, so few people have seen this, that it really won’t affect his star power. |
I can’t say for sure, but I imagine the movie got off the ground in much the same way that Passion of the Christ did; personal capital. Cain has a bit, as he’s directed a few studio films before. Voight, of course, has more. He’s got an Oscar (well-deserved; he’s a fine actor when he has good material), and that’s close to being a lifetime pass. The movie was independently financed on the strength of Cain and Voight’s combined credibility, which also allowed them to land a couple of distribution deals - not as many as they would have liked, I’m sure, but of the scale of many independent movies. The tanking means that it’ll likely not do much in the way of foreign or cable business, but it’ll definitely turn up on video. Most independent movies do more business in the rental and sales arena than on the big screen (such as the Book of Mormon Movie), a fact of which I’m sure Cain and the crew are aware. |
Sounds like Trent Ford hasn’t taken acting lessons since his acting triumphs of 2003-2004…. |
There does exist in this world a well-done, award-winning film about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. It tells the whole story in a much better and balanced tone than does the recently released historical fiction version that has received such bad reviews, and includes interviews with survivors of both the perpetrators and the victims. I’d recommend you check it out: Burying the Past. |
Of course, I am greatly relieved that Jon Voight will be okay. That’s a load off my mind. Why not market on something truly marketable–like fleshed-out characters facing huge moral dilemmas? The real story might not be the MMM itself but John D. Lee’s decision to be the fall guy. If I were doing it, I’d do MMM in flashback only. Nonetheless, I would like to learn more about _Burying the Past_–but I don’t think I’d be willing to fork out 30 bucks to view it. I hope the producer/writer can find an avenue to distribute it less expensively. |
What is really disturbing reading the comments from Mormons, is that it tends to show that the blind loyalty of 1857 seems to be very much alive today. Mike Parker, Maybe you should put a ’seer stone’ like Joseph Smith, put it in your hat bury your face and read the article again: http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695206187,00.html Try paying attention to what the Massacre descendants groups had to say this time, instead of just the Mormon Church double speak and refusal to let go of those they murdered! While you have your face buried in your hat maybe you can “see” or I meant read in Rocky’s article that it was Scott Fancher, Bob Fancher, Ron Wright and Phil Bolinger, president of the Mountain Meadows Monument Foundation, who where on “Truth Outreach” speaking for themselves. Visit their site again, that is if you even bothered to do so in the first place: |
Let the words of MMMF members speak for themselves…get your seer stones out and pay attention! “Our Board places priority on the federal stewardship issue and will request the cooperation of the LDS Church in our quest for National Monument status for Mountain Meadows grave sites. Our Foundation will present a clear-cut rationale for such a request and will delineate the positive benefits for getting the graves out of LDS ownership. Our second issue is a request to remove all wagon train victims and survivors from the LDS baptismal rolls. Those people died as Methodists and Presbyterians and should be returned to their original faith. Most descendants resent their relatives being pressed into the religion of those involved in the massacre. In 2007 Mormon Leader/profit Gordon B. Hinckley stated “It is not in the best interest of the Church” Oh really! Why, didn’t someone ask him…WHY NOT? |
Helen,
It seems that bigotry is alive and well on all sides of this issue, huh? Personally I think that what happened in 1857 is terrible, and the coverup afterwards terrible as well. I’m not sure how I’m supposed to be such a terrible person simply because I’m LDS. Could you explain to me? |
Helen, Your capacity to demonize Mormons seems limitless. You have certainly picked the right career path. Congratulations, and best of luck in your attempt to use scorn and mendacity to make a buck. P.T. Barnum is known for saying “you’ll never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people,” so I have every confidence in your continued success. |
Too much TRUTH Helen!!! IT’S RAINING TRUTH!!!! AAAAAAAARH!! |
Burying the Past is almost as crappy a work as September Dawn. The documentary skews itself against the church as much as possible at every available moment. It literally couldn’t possibly be any less balanced. Director Brian Patrick claimed he had no agenda with the documentary, but the film itself is rather transparently intended to end up on the shelf next to The God Makers. |
Well, there goes Rusty’s testimony. Thanks alot Helen. |
a random john, “It seems that bigotry is alive and well on all sides of this issue, huh? Personally I think that what happened in 1857 is terrible, and the coverup afterwards terrible as well. I’m not sure how I’m supposed to be such a terrible person simply because I’m LDS. Could you explain to me?” Just what needs to be explained? I didn’t call you anything! |
Margaret - I think you’re dead on; the interesting thing about the MMM, for the purposes of storytelling, is not the event itself, but the psychology surrounding it. Juanita Brooks’s Lee biography is more interesting, I think, than the Massacre book. Which is why I’m unhappy September Dawn chose to focus on a cardboard love story rather than the debates and decision-making of the folks who perpetrated the crime. Eric - I’ve not seen Burying the Past, but I’ve heard Patrick about it, which left me with a similar impression. Helen - you’re welcome to participate in discussion here, but you’re drifting into mockery and spam-like advocacy and inciting like responses. Let’s all tone it down a little bit. |
Great review, Matt. Between this and your review of the PBS documentary in Sunstone, you’ve gained my respect as a movie critic. The “Blood Atone-MENT!” chanting was one of my favorite parts of the film. I also enjoyed the fact that Trent Ford’s character had never read or heard Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount before. |
Matt B, I hope you take the time to read back through my posts. You will find that I did not even respond to most in any direct way whatsoever, even after numerous one’s had my name on them. It was just one attack toward me after another. I do guess that my passion for the descendants of Mountain Meadows Massacre after having met four of them has changed me in a lot of ways. I saw first hand the hurt and pain on these four men, as they talked of their families. As I read some of the statements about this movie when I have personally spoken with these men and they didn’t have a problem with the it. Made me wonder just where is it all coming from is it; September Dawn: Criticism or Sabotage? First and foremost though, I want to set something straight that being my husband Rocky and I live in Nauvoo, IL on his retirement. He served this country 33 years in the Navy on active duty, most of which was deployed around the world. His entire family are Mormons going back six generations. We both have no ill feelings nor hatred for the Mormon people. It is the teachings and doctrines of the Church that we have a huge problem with. In fact, if that were the case (we hated Mormons) we wouldn’t be living in a building that was built in 1893 in a small apartment upstairs. We wouldn’t be on call 7 days a week 24/7. We could have taken his Navy Officer training and moved to San Diego, CA (where I lived at the beach when we met) lived a wonderful life taking one of two jobs he was offered having salaries that started at over six figures on top of his retirement pay, but instead we live here and the salary is zero! On last thing there is a good book by Fawn Brodie “No Man Knows My History” which is fair and balanced. |
Wow, Helen — there’s a book? By Brodie? You don’t say! Helen, we all know this. I’ve got Brodie, Quinn, Bagley, Brooks, all sitting on my bookcase. The same probably applies (perhaps plus-or-minus one or two here or there) to Matt, Mike, Margaret, and for that matter most of the folks commenting here. Your assumption that we haven’t read any Mormon history is condescending. It’s also incorrect. |
All the reviews I’ve seen or read of the movies say it’s mediocre, at best. I think it was Dan who said we don’t know what a massacre is. I’ve just finished reading Jean Kirkpatrick’s book. Croatia, Kosovo, those were massacres. Rwanda, Darfur, those are massacres. Haun’s Mill and Mountain Meadow pale in comparison to the tragedies occuring around the world as we speak. I think I spelled occuring wrong. BTW, I’ve discovered the Sundance Channel and IFC. Last night I watched Motorcycle Diaries. Now THAT’s a movie :). |
What I’m talking about: http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070823/REVIEWS/70823001/1023 http://movies.go.com/september-dawn/r886430/drama John Voight has sort of lost his magic. I loved him in Conrack and Coming Home, but now he seems sort of weird and pathetic. |
I’d be interested in a different discussion, like how in-house LDS movies keep things pristine but not quite true (though historical truth always gets filtered through somebody’s lense) as opposed to something like _September Dawn_, which comes with the agenda to paint quite a different picture of Mormonism–and also falls far, far short of the truth (but with a vengeance). What saddens me about this discussion is its implications about our abilities to communicate with each other well. Helen made some broad assumptions about her audience, not realizing that (as Kaimi said) most of us are pretty aware of various historical controversies in Mormonism–and have long since moved beyond them into the real realm of our faith. (That realm acknowledges the MMM and a bunch of other issues/events but recognizes the messiness of mortality and clings to the hope of redemption.) But the fact that people on this blog continued to engage her in confrontational (and completely ineffective) ways should teach us something. The comments speak past each other. No communication. Does _Mormon Mentality_ have rules? I can’t find any. I think Helen could have been redirected to another blog rather simply. This wasn’t the place for her. But why did everyone feed into it? Surely we’re not stupid enough to think that she could be persuaded to think kind thoughts about Mormons by this kind of conflict. |
Margaret, it does appear that most here don’t want a different view. Guess it is kind of like when Joseph Smith had the newspaper “Nauvoo Expositer” destroyed here in Nauvoo, IL. I mentioned one book “Know Man Knows My History” because it is a fair look at the Founder of the Mormon Church…Joseph Smith. In no way (Kaimi) was I implying that there aren’t numerous other books or that most of you here, haven’t read them…geez! Yeah, Margaret that’s the ticket…send me off to another blog ’cause I don’t agree with you! |
Helen could have been directed to another blog yes, but I think we’d rather deal with her nastiness ourselves than inflict her on others. Also, she chose to come here. Earlier in the comments someone mentioned the DAMU sites. She could have gone there. There are number of sites (and I’m sure she knows them) where she could have gone where she’d've gotten resounding “amens” in response. She’s not interested in them. She came here because she’s interested in shoving her “truth” down our throats. We only did to her what she was trying to do to us. On the other hand, if you’re using her as your moral compass then you’re already lost. As for why we fed into it — I think it’s because we’ve been anticipating something like this ever since word came that “September Dawn” was being made. Then the opening was delayed repeatedly. We got sick of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Helen came and kindly dropped it for us. |
Margaret is right that we are talking past each other. I think everyone one this site recognizes that the MMM happened, and that it was led and perpetrated by Mormons. We are perfectly willing to accept the “different view” Helen keeps referring to, as long as it is supported by credible, contextually accurate history that weighs alternative evidence. But I’m certain that Helen and many like her derive some personal satisfaction from dwelling on the horrifying sin of a bunch of bat-crazy Mormons in mid-19th century Southern Utah, and for that reason she’s very much interested in THE TRUTH of that story, and not in the truth about us, who we are, and what we believe today. It’s just so much easier to debate caricatures than real, reasonable people. |
Well, I don’t think I’d want to compare _September Dawn_ to _No Man Knows My History_ since Brodie (my cousin, btw) really was a historian, and Mr. Cain appears to be simply a bad director/writer. (The first rule of good writing, as I teach my students, is that there is no such thing as the “good guy” or the “bad guy.” We are all complex beings, and such reductiveness cheats any intelligent audience.) But what a compelling idea– that things like _American Idol_ make fake experts and involve us all in a culture of mediocrity and easy, even capricious judgment. Very interesting thought, Dan. I remember when my son auditioned for Provo High’s version of _American Idol_ and endured the horrible insults of a guy pretending to be Simon Cowell. It was humiliating for him. No high school kid should have to go through that. But of course, the audience howled with laughter at the clever insults. My own children were nearly in tears over their brother’s pain. They made him a candy chart telling him he was THEIR “Provo Idol.” I’m off to do some fun family things, but I’m going to think about that comment, Dan. I like your ideas. |
I enjoyed your review, Matt. In fact, your descriptions are amusing enough that I might at least give the movie a look when it’s available on Netflix, so that I can see firsthand the thrilling romance and chants of blood atonement. |
Margaret, I’ve been blogging for over three years now and am acutely aware that there are certain people who are interested in conversation. It is manifestly clear that Helen is not one of them. In fact, I will act as a prophet and prophesy that she is only going to be around for this one thread and then disapper. She doesn’t care about what we have to say inasmuch as it contradicts her current beliefs so there’s no real point in trying to engage with her in serious conversation. Therefore, the only logical recourse is to salvage the conversation by making her into the butt of your joke, at least you get a good joke out of it. Now that’s the TRUTH! |
Helen, it’s not that we don’t agree with your ideas because they are different from ours. It’s that we don’t agree with your ideas because they are poorly expressed, shrill, badly spelled and mostly incoherent. What are you trying to say? That Mormons today belong to an evil cult because 150 years ago some Mormons killed 120 innocent people? I think every single writer here on this blog will agree that some Mormons 150 years ago killed 120 innocent people. What they don’t agree with is that this makes the church today an evil cult. You’re not dealing with run-of-the-mill Mormons here, Helen. They’re bright, highly literate, and well-educated. Many, many of them are very interested in Mormon History and have studied it thoroughly. They have all the same data you have, and yet most of them have received a spiritual witness that God wants them to be members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Poorly-executed rehashing of stories they already know (and are deeply saddened by) will not change that witness. |
I saw the movie last weekend, and I have to say my favorite part of the romance was when Trent Ford gave Tamara, wearing her fifth stylish dress in as many days, a locket he keeps in his waistcoat containing a perfect tiny snapshot of his mother who died in 1842, apparently in Utah. As dreadul as the movie is, I feel for the filmmakers today. It has to be hard to see your creation laughed off the stage. It was clearly a passion project. Missplaced passion, but still - I hope this isn’t anyone’s last film. It would be a very sad note to go out on. |
David King Landrith’s favorite book is No Man Knows My History. You don’t want to get him started on his hero, Fawn Brodie. LOL, yeah, we’re SO not run of the mill. That just cracks me up. We think rather highly of ourselves here |
Hey, Helen, would you e-mail me? It’s I’d like to interview you |
Let me clarify- I’m not arguing the merits of Fawn Brodie’s work. What I am arguing is that to the extent that it leaves people feeling smug and satisfied that they have all THE TRUTH they need with regards to Joseph Smith — to the point that they can feel intellectually superior to us lowly, benighted souls who accept his prophethood — to that extent, the book’s strength is its ability to flatter. |
If we’re going to talk about the sins of various religions, let’s be sure to include Christianity in the antebellum South and its use of the Bible to justify slavery. The Southern Baptist Convention was formed in 1845 after splitting with northern Baptists primarily over the issue of slavery. Today’s Southern Baptists — a significant part of the evangelical Christian movement — are their descendants and historical heirs. And yet, I don’t see any Mormons (or anyone else for that matter) making films about horrid Southern slavemasters and the beatings (and worse) they inflicted on their slaves, much less directly connecting these actions to their Christian beliefs and Biblical interpretations. So, Helen, while no one here is denying the atrocity committed by Mormons at Mountain Meadows happened, we are denying that “Mormonism” and “Mormon Priesthood” incontrovertibly lead to such depraved acts. Those particular Mormons, under extreme stress, wrongly used their beliefs to justify murder. But that does not mean Mormonism itself is evil, any more than Southern slavery means evangelical Christianity is evil, or the Inquisition means Roman Catholicism is evil. You haven’t responded to any of the difficult questions put to you here, so I don’t expect a reply to this. But it would be nice if you would cast the beam out of your own evangelical eye before you point out the mote in our Mormon eye. |
“I could probably produce a book depicting horrifying sins and a lot of bizarre and twisted behavior in Evangelical Christianity, and we would probably all feel brilliant and self-satisfied looking down upon our silly, simple-minded Evangelical brothers and sisters, but I just don’t think that is necessary.” I have to say I find the indignation of this thread a bit amusing, especially on a blog that recently included a post where DKL (and others) apparently endorsed the ridiculous criticism leveled at this film by Michael Medved–essentially saying that the crux of what was so wrong with it was that it was made about the wrong people, i.e. that it wasn’t made about Muslims. Unless you can say with a straight face that you would be just as disgusted by this film (or, say, by John Krakaeur’s book) if it used the same “ham-fisted,” proof-textish, wholly unfair rhetorical strategies to portray the violent threat “inherent” to modern Islam, than your complaints are nothing but sour grapes. Judging by the treatment of Islam I often encounter on this blog, throughout the ‘nacle, and spewing from Church-owned AM radio stations, most Mormons don’t have a credible leg to stand on when it comes to rationally and substantively criticizing hatchet jobs like September Dawn. Put differently, Glen Beck has no right to criticize this film. |
Helen Hulse: it does appear that most here don’t want a different view… Actually, we’re happy to have multiple points of view here. Mormons are tremendously receptive to discussions about Mountain Meadows. Listen, for example, to this recent Mormon Matters podcast about it. At the recent Mormon History Association conference, there were several sessions about the Mountain Meadows Massacre by Mormons and non-Mormons. The Mountain Meadows Massacre is a topic of history studied much more frequently by Mormons than non-Mormons, and most of the commenters and bloggers here (especially Matt B, who has won awards for his historical scholarship in Mormon Studies) know considerably more about the event than you do. No Man Knows My History is a brilliant book — among the finest works of Mormon history. The fact that you’d compare it favorably with September Dawn speaks volumes about how stupid you are. Which brings me to the reason you’re being urged to leave: You are shrill and ignorant. Brad Kramer: Judging by the treatment of Islam I often encounter on this blog… Thanks for proving that you don’t read this blog at all. You’ve missed post like this one. Or this one. Or this one. If all you’re going to do is show up to complain about AM radio and lie about Mormon Mentality, then you’ll soon find yourself unwelcome here. |
Margaret,
Or heck, Puritans and their killing of women whom they accused of being witches! If you want examples of murder driven by fear, there’s no better example. |
DKL, |
Brad #59: I don’t typically post here, so I’m not familiar with what has been written about Islam. DKL’s #60 seems to refute what you claim. But I will gladly affirm that I do not allow my opinion of any religion to be based on the actions of those in its extremist wings. Islam is largely a religion of peace and great devotion to God and to the cause of justice. It is immensely unfortunate that its image in the West is largely driven by a minority of terrorist thugs and despotic government officials. I only wish that Helen and those who feel like her would be so charitable toward us. |
Brad, I think that you’ve misread Medved’s piece. Many of the people who commented on my post commending Medved’s piece on the film seemed to think that because he pointed out that (a) Muslims were a better case study for fanaticism, and (b) that there had been a near absence of case studies on fanaticism that dealt with Muslims, that Medved was bemoaning the fact that SD was not about Muslims. If I hadn’t been so busy these past few weeks, I would have commented more actively to clear up this misconception. It is a sloppy reading that credits Medved with bemoaning the lack of abuse that Muslims have suffered at the hands of Hollywood. Medved is simply pointing out how bizarre it is to use Mormons as a case study for religious fanaticism. The fact that there are better candidates for such case studies underscores how strange it is to chose Mormons. I stand by my original assessment. If you choose to continue reading our blog, I’m sure that you’ll find it to not characteristic of the stereotypes that you seem to have anticipated finding. |
Are we disgusted by the film? I don’t think disgusted is the right word. Amused, perhaps. Enjoying the critical lambasting. Mountain Meadows was disgusting. A poorly made film about Mountain Meadows is just pathetic (and does no service to the victims, IMO.) David, I used the word “shrill” first. Obviously we are working from the same troll-fighting script. How much is the church paying YOU to be mean to Helen? I’m getting thousands, I tell you. Thousands. |
Some interesting things have come out of this blog conversation. My gut reaction to all of it is t |