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You’re not losing Salt Lake City. It is still there, but change is inevitable and inexorable. You’ve gotta plan for change. You’ll never have a city remain precisely the same as you began it. It is impossible, at least a city the size of Salt Lake City. This is the same argument made by those who are not happy with Mexican immigrants, who fear a loss of the identity of “America” by the influx of Mexican culture. Change happens. Open yourself up to it. |
It’s not OUR city. It’s a city we share with a lot of non-members. In fact, I think (? but am not certain?) that in SLC proper the non-members outnumber the members. Utah as a whole is 62% mormon, and declining every year as a percentage of the local population, and a third of those members probably aren’t even active. The whole world is the mission field, and the more isolationist and cultish we become, the less likely anyone will be to want to hear any message we have to offer. How do you want THEM to treat US (if there has to be a them and us) when they are in charge? The fact that we make certain covenants and follow certain health codes does not mean that they have a responsibility to make those same convenants. It doesn’t mean they are evil. They are not bad people for having a drink. |
Downtown Salt Lake is like Washington, DC. There’s all this beauty, then you walk outside the gates and there’s all this crud. I don’t care who repairs the mess downtown, it needs to be done. I suspect the prophet is mindful of the dichotomy and he has it all in hand as far as organizing a beautiful city. Because Salt Lake City is not a beautiful city today. Although I haven’t been there for a few years. |
Downtown Salt Lake City is a center of worship. Actually, a few select buildings at the center of downtown Salt Lake City comprise a center of worship. Downtown Salt Lake City also contains long-established retail venues, government offices, residences, and a variety of other land uses. Salt Lake City is not the Vatican. Why is it that we have to prove our tolerance by letting them do as they like yet they never prove their tolerance by respecting our laws? Why are they even moving to the heart of Mormondom in the first place? Some of them are probably moving for jobs but all of them? Who are “them” and “they?” Non-LDS? People who drink alcohol? From the context, it appears that “we” means members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, including those don’t live in Salt Lake City, or even in Utah. Do non-residents who happen to share Salt Lake City’s predominant religious faith really have any role in forming and maintaining the laws in that locality? If so, why and how is that true, under a constitutional secular government? I’m sure many of them are moving there for affordable housing and safe neighborhoods — the latter of which would seem to me to be a product of the very liquor ordinances they’re trying to pull down. On what basis do you find that liquor laws in Salt Lake City create (a) affordable housing, and (b) safe neighborhoods? I doubt very much, by the way, that most residents would agree that housing is “affordable” in Salt Lake City. It’s Nauvoo all over again. We build it. We make it beautiful. We make it thrive. Then come the outsiders who promptly get their nose out of joint because we do things differently. Are you certain that this is what happened in Nauvoo? Having lived there for six years, and having studied a good deal of the local history, I’ve not found that “outsiders” (whoever that means) somehow moved into Nauvoo and “got their nose out of joint.” Rather, it was the earlier settlers–some of who’s families had been there for several decades longer–who took offense at Mormon practices, such as block voting and the perceived blending of ecclesiastical and governmental authority. Are you afraid that non-LDS are going to run the LDS out of Salt Lake City (which, I understand, hasn’t been majority-LDS for many years)? Yes indeed, there’s no tolerance or respect like public nuisances — such as public drunkenness, urination and vomiting. Not to mention the parallel increase of public dangers such as drunk driving and assault. Do all persons who consume alcohol engage in “public drunkenness, urination and vomiting” or “drunk driving and assault?” If you believe this is the case, on what basis do you reach this conclusion? I am no more sanguine about these people and their changes than Rome was about the Visigoths outside the gates. Again, who are “these people?” By raising the image of Rome and Visigoths, are you suggesting that non-LDS are (as Rome considered the Visigoths) “barbarians?” |
The affordable housing bit made me chuckle a little. You can get more house in LV these days than in SLC. |
annegb, believe me, SLC has a long ways to go before it becomes as bad as Washington, D.C. or any number of U.S. metropolitan cities. SLC is relatively clean and well cared for compared to many urban centers. |
I admit I don’t know much about the SLC market but I’d bet it’s better than Toronto, where $300,000 might buy you a two-bedroom bungalow. |
Greg, like I said, I haven’t been there for awhile–I’m hoping to get to go up to the Choir performance at Christmas!–and you’re right, it’s not surrounded by slums like DC, but it’s not what it should be, either. I actually think, nothing on you, PDOE, you make a good point, but I think it might be good to have SLC be a mecca for other cultures. It might be cool. BTW, PDOE, my five bedroom, two bedroom house, (now with a new dining room and laundry room!), 1/2 acre lot with tons of trees, is worth about $200,000, give or take. Maybe you should move here :). |
This is a total threadjack, but WHERE do you LIVE, annegb? I was sold from the moment you mentioned trees. |
Cedar City, UT, right where this historical event happened. |
PDOE |
I don’t always usually with potential mayors of Jerusalem, but this one makes some good points. I have lived in both Jerusalem and Salt Lake and I think both cities are much better served by a more diverse population (although Jerusalem has never been as homogenous as Salt Lake used to be). Downtown Salt Lake is certainly no worse than other US cities its size, and it’s a lot better than many. I’m always pleasantly surprised as I drive around much of the greater Salt Lake area at how well-cared-for the area is. And didn’t you hear about the Main Street Plaza mess a few years ago? But if you’re not happy with the way things are going in Salt Lake, it’s not going to matter if things are better here than in Washington DC. I don’t think you’re asking than only Mormons live here, but that anyone who does choose to live here conforms to our official standards. I’ll go to Utah County if I want everyone to conform. Salt Lake is a better place for non-conformists of all (well, most) stripes. |
PDOE, I think that you make a good point that it’s hypocritical to show intolerance for the Utah liquor restrictions. |
While we feel like SLC is our capital (whether we ought to feel that way or not is another question), we ought to remember that it is the capital of at least one other important entity–the State of Utah. It must therefore represent all of Utah’s citizens. While the Mormons may have found and established Utah, I hope no one will argue that it would not be where it is today without the contributions of thousands or millions of non-members who came there not because it was “Zion” but for numerous other reasons. Think of what a destination Sundance is because of the choice by non-Mormons to put a major film festival there. I bet they don’t come because of the Mormons. |
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“But what about Salt Lake?” “We’ll always have Provo!” |
$300k is considered the bottom of the market in SLC proper right now. |
PDoE: Non Latter-day Saints have been involved in the life of the city of SLC since almost the very beginning. Many of them have been just as religious albeit in religions that don’t outlaw alcohol, such as Catholics and Presbyterians. When you ask why non-LDS in SLC don’t respect “our” laws, I think this is an unfortunate question. First, laws restricting alcohol do exist but can they really be considered “our” laws, when “our” refers to Latter-day Saints? If a majority of members of a legislature that enacts a law are members of a certain religion, does that make the law itself a law of the religion? The answer is or should be no, when American democracy rightly understood is considered. Thus, even if a law is enacted by a legislature predominantly composed of members of one religion, and the law itself resembles some teaching of the religion, the hope is that despite this the law is not the law of the religion to which a majority of the enacting legislature belongs but rather that the law is a law of the entire society that is subject to the legislative authority of that particular legislature. I should note that Utah is not alone in maintain restrictive liquor laws but rather joins jurisdictions (albeit usually municipal) all throughout the American south that similarly proscribe aspects of the sale of liquor. I would dare to suggest, PDOE, that the way you have expressed yourself in this post with regard to SLC being ours and non-LDS are therefore outsiders to SLC is one of the major contributing factors to the acrimony that plagues SLC between non-LDS and LDS. They don’t like us precisely because we think that SLC is “ours”. It is true that Latter-day Saints founded the city and made it into a prosperous oasis of sorts in an inhospitable arid, desolate, and isolated location, but that fact does not preclude anyone who so desires to move there without having to change their belief system in doing so. Having said all that, I sincerely wish that non-LDS would treat LDS better in SLC. Latter-day Saints are treated very poorly indeed by non-LDS in SLC. It is an unfortunate fact of life in SLC. Do not expect non-LDS neighbors to act friendly toward you once they find out you are LDS. We have only ourselves to blame on that level, though, since non-LDS (justifiably) have developed caution in befriending LDS neighbors because the actions of past LDS neighbors have unfortunately sent the message that the LDS neighbors are only interested in being friends to the extent that the non-LDS neighbors show themselves as being receptive to proselytization. Although we only have ourselves to blame on that particular level, there is another level on which non-LDS in SLC could do a lot better. That is that they could simply respect the religious beliefs of LDS. After all, Latter-day Saints are the largest religious minority in SLC, so it is to be expected that a large number of your neighbors will adhere to LDS religious standards (which in the case of LDS include such mundane lifestyle choices such as not drinking alcohol or coffee). Unfortunately, even though they realize that these aspects of their religion mean a lot to Latter-day Saints, non-LDS in SLC too often simply mock these religious beliefs and ridicule the religion that so many adhere to in SLC. There is no need for non-LDS to shun, ignore, mock, or ridicule their LDS neighbors just because the Mormon religion seems so strange to them with its dietary restrictions and many meetings. Both LDS and non-LDS can and should do a lot better at getting along in SLC. |
It has been my experience that most individuals who constantly scream for tolerance and acceptance, usually do not give either in return. |
john f.,
Is the member population in Salt Lake City really under 50%? |
I grew up in Utah, but I don’t see how we’re losing Salt Lake City (as opposed to Salt Lake County where the demographics are a little different). Yes, the Saints were run out of Nauvoo, but the parallels between SLC now and Nauvoo then are pale at best. |
re # 19, yes. |
re # 19, this Wikipedia entry on SLC points out that fewer than 50% of SLC are LDS. This one on the local Presbyterian college, Westminster College, in SLC states that the LDS population in SLC is at 40%:
This is in reference to Salt Lake City proper here, not including Sandy, South Jordan, Draper, or places like that where the number might be higher in the area of 60% -65% LDS. |
It just seems to me that losing control of our own capitol represents some kind of failure. Perhaps Jerusalem wasn’t the best example. Maybe Tel Aviv is a better one. Built as a refuge and a stubborn insistence on a group’s right to exist and govern itself — lost through population pressure? I wonder how that’s even possible — aren’t we Mormons known for our large families? It’s ironic. *shrug* And yes, I have considered the idea of Salt Lake City somehow seceding from the rest of the States. I don’t think I’d mind a Vatican-style capitol for the Church. That said, I doubt it’s particularly feasible. Change may be inevitable, as some have pointed out, but that doesn’t make it always good. |
“our own capital” We don’t have a capital, PDOE. Maybe those of us who live in Utah take Salt Lake City for granted, but it’s no more “our” capital than Winnipeg is the capital of Protestantism. Just making an example. |
“I wonder how that’s even possible — aren’t we Mormons known for our large families? It’s ironic.” Women in Utah have somethink like .5 more children than the national average. That’s not significant enough to make a huge difference. |
This article includes some follow-up and insight on LDS/non-LDS in SLC. |