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[...] Part I of a three part series discussing the Christopher Cain film September Dawn. This part focuses on the craft of the film. Part II, discussing the film and history, can be seen here. [...] |
The dedication of the first Utah temple is still twenty years off at this point. Endowments would have been given in the Endowment House in Salt Lake, though I think in 1857, they still may have occasionally taken the ceremonies on the road to other non-temple locations. Also, there were no endowments for the dead until the St. George Temple was dedicated in 1877. How does the film address this? Do the characters explicitly mention going to the “temple,” or does it appear that they make the trip to the Endowment House in G.S.L. City? |
Also a good point. The answers to your questions are “It doesn’t” and “unclear.” It is true ceremonies were held in other locations, generally outdoors, though Trent Ford receives his in a shadowy and rickety looking building. |
It looked to me like the endowment was taking place in a barn. The setting was dark and unfurnished and spacious with bare walls and a rough floor. |
It sounds like the setting of the endowment is at least plausible for 1857 southern Utah, though any reference to temple recommends or contemporary temples would be anachronistic. I’ve only seen the trailer, but I don’t think the temple clothing depicted in the movie is correct for the time. As I understand it, the movie shows women administering washing ordinances to men. As far as I know, the endowment never included coed washings, and certainly not with women administering the ordinance to men. |
Matt B, that is a very nice post. I thought I had no interest in anything related to this movie – but I learned a lot from reading this. Thanks. |
Perhaps this will come up in the 3rd post on theology, but does anyone know if there is any recorded instance in Mormon history of excited men awkwardly chanting “Blood Atone-ment! Blood Atone-ment!”? Also, do we have any record of Brigham Young’s retrenchment reforms including a ban on all clothing not black and white? Out of all the Mormons portrayed in the film, only Trent Ford’s character wore any color (unless you count Micah’s blood-stained body near the end of the film when he goes crazy). It seemed to me that this contrast between the all black-and-white clad Mormons and the all-too-colorful Gentiles was one of the more immediate ways that Cain attempted in the beginning to differentiate between the good guys and the bad guys. |
I poked around a bit in some books and on the internet, but I couldn’t find any information about Brigham Young and clothing colors in the 1850s. There is a story about young men in Orderville complaining about having to wear the ugly gray trousers produced by the united order. However, that was well after 1857 and apparently only for those within the order. The perception of Mormons wearing black and white is not entirely restricted to the 18th Century. In September 2001, Newsweek featured on its cover a group of somber looking “Mormons” (probably models, actually) all dressed in white shirts and blouses with black pants and skirts. Despite our obsession with white shirts, not even missionaries dress that much alike. Another question I would raise is about the plot device that has the fictional bishop plotting murder because a woman wears trousers and carries a gun. I would think that in the frontier of the 1850s, it wouldn’t be unusual for a woman, Mormon or not, to be packing heat for her own protection. Is there any historical evidence that that was unusual, or that Mormons would be offended by it? No doubt that trousers would have been an unusual fashion choice for women of the time, but is there any evidence that this was such an issue for Mormons of the time, that it would lead to mass murder? Part of what led to the historical massacre was unfounded concerns that the immigrants were associated with the approaching army, and false rumors about the Fancher party engaging in inflammatory boasting and poisoning of springs and animals. Although those rumors were baseless, modern movie viewers might at least understand how such rumors might inflame the Mormons. I think the scriptwriters came up with the gun and trousers thing because they needed some device to inflame Mormons that would be seen by modern viewers as completely irrational. |
Oops, there were no Mormons in the 18th Century. That should be 19th. |
Left Field (#9)- Or were there Mormons in the 18th century? Parley P. Pratt seems to think so. :) http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/MStar&CISOPTR=6590&REC=2 |
See Vol. 2, No. 2 (June 1841) on the above link. |
Thanks, guys. I think it’s correct to ascribe the clothing colors to the filmmaker’s palette – another version of the black hat/white hat trope of Westerns. About the woman wearing pants – this strikes me as a reference to the general cultural conservatism of various grassroots religious movements – the Methodists restricting dancing and so forth. It strikes me that this is a tendency more characteristic of twentieth- than nineteenth century Mormonism; a bishop at BYU in 1957 might well have been more offended by it than one in 1857. |
Grant Underwood has done some interesting research into Mormon views of American culture during the 1830s and 1840s. Underwood finds that dancing was at one time proscribed in church publications, as well as novel reading, wearing costly apparel, etc. But Underwood is quick to note that none of these proscriptions were fixed and as a result changed over time. I don’t think that he found anything on women wearing pants, but his point is that culturally the Saints at times borrowed norms from protestant faiths (see his chapter “Moderate Millenarians” in _The Millenarian World of Early Mormonism_). |
Matt is sure worked up about this movie! Has anyone told him that it is not a documentary? If it were a documentary then I would be the first to point out that the soils (and some of the grasses) were certainly not native to the site of the original MMM location at the time of MMM. And don’t even get me started on the buttons…oh those misguided Hollywood types and their inaccurate costume designs! I see alot of people bad mouthing September Dawn. We all know that the producers have no other interest than to make money. But what about the recent Ensign article on MMM? What about the obvious inaccuracies in that article? And Matt, don’t force me, the casual reader of those events, point those innaccuracies out to you. Church integrity is on the line! But the Morg seems more concerned about playing offense. I believe that integrity is owning up to the past. That integrity would include opening the vaults. That hidden history could teach us how to prevent something so tragic from being repeated. But for now, we shall be content with our milk! |
Actually, TM, I’m less worked up than amused by the movie. It’s almost as good as Trapped by the Mormons. And I’m not terribly offended by historical inaccuracies made in the name of artistic license; this particular film, however, doesn’t do a good job of that. If it nailed it as a Romeo and Juliet-type melodrama, like, say, A Study in Scarlet does, than I’d be applauding it. However, the artistic licenses taken here actually manage to make the movie’s plot more boring than the history. That’s the shame of it. |
Christopher, perhaps you could just quote what Pratt said? I spent about ten minutes clicking on the different articles in that issue and waiting for them to slowly open up, and then finding nothing by Parley P. Pratt. I finally just decided I didn’t want to spend any more time with it. When it comes to women wearing pants, it seems unlikely to me that there would be much difference in the cultural attitudes of 1850s Mormons as compared with the Protestant Fancher Party. It just seems a bit off to depict the “good guys” as having an “enlightened” 21st Century attitude towards women’s wear, while the Evil Mormons go totally berserk over the whole thing. Both groups were products of their culture, and in the movie, neither of them seems to be responding in a culturally-appropriate way. |
tiredmormon, What are the obvious inaccuracies in the Ensign article? |
“That integrity would include opening the vaults.” Apparently tiredmormon has been reading the Tanners’ complaints about how they weren’t allowed access to the Church archives. The vaults have been opened to a variety of scholars. The fact that the Church doesn’t want a pair of lying hacks like the Tanners doing a-contextual cut-and-paste jobs should surprise no one. The mere fact that I’ve been raised mostly on milk in this Church does not mean I should be eager to eat cow dung. |
David Grua (#13)- Thanks for the info. I’d forgotten about the “Moderate Millenarians” in Underwood’s book. Left Field (#16)- It is actually a sermon by John Wesley that Pratt quotes, entitled by Pratt “John Wesley A Latter-day Saint.” Wesley’s sermon desribes his views on a perceived apostasy and the role of spiritual gifts in the Church. I made the comment in jest, of course, knowing full well that there were no Mormons in the 18th century. However, Mormons of the 19th century seemed very comfortable referring to Wesley and a few others as sort of proto-Mormons. |
One inaccuracy that I found to be interesting was the description of Danites. Cain had Brigham Young speaking publicly of Joseph Smith establishing the Danites (BY’s speech is actually quoting JS’s journal entry for 27 July 1838, which by 1857 had been altered so the Danite portion was crossed out). A search through the JDs brings up 7 speeches that mention Danites, none of which mention the organization approvingly. Rather, the speeches are responding to popular anti-Mormon literature. I know that there are several BY speeches that aren’t published, but somehow I doubt that if we search through them we’ll find the quote that Cain puts in BY’s mouth in the movie. Cain also portrays the Danites castrating people and blood atoning Samuelson’s wife for not wanting to marry “the Apostle.” There was violence in 1850s Utah. There’s enough evidence from solid sources to establish that. But the question of whether or not the Danite organization survived the Mormon War in Missouri is one of the most contested issues in the history of violence in Mormonism. The people that are talking about Danites in the nineteenth century are usually anti-Mormons that have read legal documents from the aftermath of the Mormon War, so it’s difficult to know if these anti-Mormons are really describing an actual organization, or just extrapolating from the Missouri legal documents. Scott Thomas, who is writing his MA thesis on Mormon violence, recently told me that we just can’t know for sure whether there were Danites after 1838. There just isn’t enough evidence to say one way or the other. Given the contested nature of this issue, and the “factual” representation of the Danites in the movie, I think it’s safe to say that Carol Wang Schutter’s two years of research was spent mostly reading sensational 19th century anti-Mormon accounts of Utah. Not exactly the stuff of good historical research. |
Matt – you’re right, the history is much more interesting. Dan, read a book man. Juanita should suffice, but Matt could point you towards the cow dung. Seth, seriously?!? As far as the vaults go, a variety of well supervised scholars have seen selective material. Doesn’t your faith/time/money deserve more than whitewashed history? Obviously, you just don’t care. The vitriole against the Tanners was a nice touch though. I never have figured out why everyone freaks out about the Tanners. Sandra is so sweet in person, I often wonder why FARMS is so scared to debate her. |
Tired, is there a reason I should give her ideas more weight than Richard Turley’s treatment? |
Having recently reread Brooks, I can only imagine that perhaps tiredmormon is put out that Turley doesn’t really deal with events after the massacre. Instead, Turley refers us to the forthcoming book for “a more complete, documented account.” I am not aware of any factual misstatements in the Turley article, and none have yet been pointed out to me. If by “obvious inaccuracies,” the commenter refers to differences of interpretation, or is simply annoyed that Turley does not address issues beyond the stated scope of his “brief summary,” then s/he has a very different idea of what “inaccurate” means. |
Lots of pathological people are “very nice” in person. So what? |
There were lots of rumblings going on in the community (Cedar City, New Harmony, Parowan). People were aware the Fancher party was coming and some were making threats. My cousin told me his grandfather and others took their teams and wagons up Cedar Canyon–far to the east of the site of the massacre–ostensibly to get wood, in order to avoid being a part of something they disagreed with. Many, many men in our community did NOT participate. I don’t think the facts will ever truly be known, who participated, why, and if there were survivors who did not return to Arkansas. It was front page news here Sunday and what struck me was the picture of a survivor in tears. I can’t relate to this continued deep sorrow. I don’t understand it. I’m assuming it must have affected the families generations later in some deep intrinsic way. To use a big word. Because, say, for example, my great-great grandmother was in the Martin Handcart Company. I don’t cry when I hear about it. It’s distant to me and doesn’t affect me in the present. Perhaps if I went to a ceremony, I would feel emotional and shed some tears, as I did when I attended a ceremony for my uncle’s unit that served in Korea, as I did when I sang in the MMM memorial held in, oh, 1990, I think. But it wasn’t deep sorrow, it was just the emotional beauty of the moment. I don’t understand the continued animosity over something that happened so long ago. If I were a Jew, I’d still be complaining. Not this. It was awful, I abhor the actions of those who murdered, but it’s history. |
TM – Might I say, I find your seemingly random decision to pick me, of all the bloggers on this site, to be the uber-apologist hilarious. Dan – I just re-read the article, and didn’t see any obvious inaccuracies. I’m, of course, not a specialist on the massacre, but I’ve read Brooks and Bagley in the past year, and I saw the most recent MHA presentation on the upcoming book. There’s a couple of points that are disputed (beyond all the somewhat tired Young stuff), such as the level of Paiute participation in the final executions, and as we might expect from the Ensign, it’s rhetorically careful, but beyond that it’s pretty straightforward. Not sure what TM is talking about in particular. Maybe he could be a bit more specific. |
Did I ever say you were the uber-apologist? No, but I might classify the rest as uber-polemisist. I really like our bantering Matt, but not the self-inflicted judgment calls. Dan, Juanita’s work should be respected more than Turley’s, in my humble opinion, because she spent her life doing original historical research at great personal risk and sacrifice. She wrote independently and courageously against a tide of constant intimidation. We can’t expect impartiality from Turley, he holds an official church position. He cannot be disconnected with that inherent bias. As for the hatred against Sandra, wasn’t there some teaching out there somewhere, gosh I forget where, about loving your enemies? Instead I see ‘pig’ and ‘pathological.’ I doubt any of you have met Sandra. And Farms will engage her, Dan, but only on their terms (through their magazine) where they can dictate the content and context of the discussion. As I recall, Sandra and Gerald strongly fought the authenticity of Hoffman while Hinkley bought hundreds of his forgeries, with our tithing money, only to bury them in the vaults. That fact may hurt the pathological theory… Finally, and boy is this tiring, let’s take a look at the Ensign article, page 19: “…each militiaman turned and shot the emigrant next to him while Indians rushed from their hiding place to attack the terrified women and children.” The record is clear that the women and children were killed by the whites and Indians. In fact, those women and children were shot by the whites who were escorting them out of the valley. Is it just coincidence that Turley pins the most egregious killings of the massacre solely on the Indians? I think not. |
Sounds like it would’ve worked better as a musical. |
“while Hinkley bought hundreds of his forgeries, with our tithing money, only to bury them in the vaults.” Actually, he turned over a lot of the documents to our rival, the RLDS Church. The LDS Church in handling the Salamander letters was almost a model of openness. Even I was surprised at how open they were about the uncomfortable documents. |
tired, The fact that Juanita Brooks did her research in those circumstances tells us very little about the reliability of her account. She may have set out with a grudge against the Church, willing to draw firm conclusions from records that are in reality inconclusive. Or in your mind, is it just people with Church callings who do that sort of thing? |
“The record is clear that the women and children were killed by the whites and Indians. In fact, those women and children were shot by the whites who were escorting them out of the valley.” (tiredmormon) And if you had kept reading Turley, you would have seen that he said exactly that: “Militiamen with the two front-running wagons murdered the wounded. Despite plans to pin the massacre on the Paiutes — and persistent subsequent efforts to do so — Nephi Johnson later maintained that his fellow militiamen did most of the killing.” As Matt already noted, the exact level of Paiute participation is disputed. Nevertheless, we should note that Turley correctly informs us that on the signal, the Paiutes *attacked* the women and children, but that the white militia did most of the *killing*. I don’t think there is much dispute that the initial attack on the women and children was from the Indians, as Turley states. And just for the record, I have met Sandra Tanner. She was very nice. |
tired, Did you and Left Field read the same Turley article? If so, how did you see what you saw in the article? |
Oh come on! The only mention of women and children is tied to the Indians. What is unclear about that! Dan, who is attacking your faith here? Are you paranoid? Was I trying to separate you from the church? Why are you so touchy? Just calm down and enjoy the banter. Kierkegaard would has some interesting things to say about your over-defensiveness. What martyr complex are you referring to? The negativity towards Juanita and Sandra startles me. And what is the basis for the Turley lovefest? From what I have heard he is married, sorry to disappoint you. And left field, you are right, there is no dispute. The whites were next to the wagons when the call was made, the Indians were in the hills. Do you think that they just stood there waiting for the Indians to arrive after the call? The evidence is to the contrary. This is one hypersensitive crowd that boils into hysteria with such slight provocation. |
tired, I am not overly defensive, and I realize you are not attacking my faith. But when you talk about us on this blog in this way
I want to reply:
It’s strange how when you do ad hominems against Turley, it’s just banter; when we question your sources, we’re hysterical people who have forgotten the New Testament. Would you prefer that all of your assertions and sources just go uncontested here?
By negativity, do you meant criticism? Skepticism? If you are looking for a place where your sources will be viewed with the same uncritical eye you have towards them, this maybe isn’t the right venue for you. |
The people whose ancestors participated in MMM, that’s I’ve spoken with, feel that Juanita Brooks’ account is the most accurate. When I was researching this, I brought home about 13 histories from the library, including hers, and I also feel it was the most accurate, the most balanced. I just don’t believe she was the type to grind any axe, I think she honestly tried to find the truth. I can’t remember who wrote the other one, I think it was the Tanners, but I didn’t feel good about it. It has a “National Enquirer” quality. There were a couple others, then I also took home a bunch of histories, of the valley, of Parowan, of New Harmony, etc. It seems John D. Lee was regarded as somewhat of a martyr. In the Parowan history, it simply lists him as a true saint, faithful always to the prophet. The tone is defiant and defensive. There were four editorials on our opinion page this morning, check them out. It appears they tried to cover every point of view. http://www.thespectrum.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=OPINION I tend to agree with the one that feels the Paiutes were scapegoated. As per my previous post, perhaps the reason the animosity remains is the dishonesty. Certainly we can all be more open and honest, but the facts in this tragedy will never fully be known. It was buried with the people who know the truth. My friend, a direct descendant of John Main Urie, told me the children in the family got severely whipped if they even mentioned MMM. I was rebuffed by several people. My cousin, whose mother, my aunt, had done extensive genealogy, laughed and told me how people got mad at him when he asked about it. There is still great shame here in Cedar about Mountain Meadow and debate. I think, though, that the Paiute excuse is largely dismissed among locals here. Nobody I’ve spoken to blames the Indians. At any rate, I’d go with Juanita Brooks. If I had any time or energy, there are personal journals held by some families, but I just didn’t have it in me to chase them down. |
…and I think everyone here is perfectly willing to accept that. And in places where her conclusions differ from those of someone like Richard Turley, I’m content to say “Who knows?” rather than assume the worst about either researcher. |
tired, As far as Brooks and I are aware, the sentence you object to gives an accurate statement of what happened when the order was given. (Although you omitted the beginning of Turley’s sentence so as to obscure the fact that the sentence only referred what happened in the seconds immediately after the order.) As to who did the killing, Turley approvingly quotes Johnson saying that “militiamen did most of the killing.” As to the role of the Indians, Turley argues against efforts “to pin the massacre on the Paiutes” So in text immediately before and after the fragment you quoted, Turley tells us (accurately) that the Paiutes responded to the order by attacking the women and children, but that the Mormon militia, not the Paiutes, did most of the killing. And yet somehow, you can tell us with a straight face that Turley says the opposite. |
All I said was that you should read Juanita. I never put her or Sandra above reproach, I did comment that you ought to treat both of them with more respect. I was not the one who even brought Sandra into the conversation, that came from the posturing and hysteria of Seth whose tangent left me somewhat confused. Where did all this ad homenim crap start? That seems to be a buzz word around this blog. Look, this is easy. MMM is the most shameful event in the history of Mormonism. So forgive me if I am suspicious of a church called historian who wants to write the definitive story. So to recap, because you seem to get lost in the details… You ought to read Brooks, why are we talking about Sandra and Turley is suspicious. Whew, I’m glad nobody brought up Bagley, that would really have turned into a firestorm. |
what in the heck does ad hominem mean? |
tired, Respect is something that is earned, and I think Juanita Brooks is deserving of respect for doing a thoroughly-researched treatment of the MMM. With regards to Sandra Tanner, if you can point me to a reason why she is worthy of my respect, I will gladly concede that respect. If you think her being nice in person is something that automatically qualifies her for our respect, then sorry- I can’t help you. Anyway, if I am ever interested enough in the details of the MMM, I’ll definitely read Juanita Brooks. Where did all this ad homenim crap start? In this discussion, it started with your dismissal of Turley’s article simply on the grounds that he is a Church employee. |
ad hominen means an attack on the person, instead of debating their point of view on its merits. |
Well, Dan, we will all strive to earn your precious respect. Turley’s article was not simply dismissed because of his position, it was dismissed for inaccuracy. Thank God the church will at least talk about MMM. But if they are going to talk about it, they must be completely honest, because their integrity is on the line (as was my very first comment). Of course the church admitted negatives, but I was offended at the fact that, in my oh so humble opinion which you are certain to disagree with, that the women and children were only attacked by Indians. I think a plain reading of that Ensign sentence validates my point. The Ensign article was no church cheerleading piece, but it would also not qualify as an honest confession. Maybe the book will be better…but considering the Morg’s low honesty level displayed over the years, I doubt it. And Anne, you are the cat’s pajamas. Ad hominem is a personal attack on the person and not the argument. So if I were to call Dan a “stubborn polemisist” that would be an ad hominem. My comment about Turley was not an ad hominem, because I was answering Dans question about why Juanita deserves more credit than Turley, and bias is part to that argument. An good example of ad hominem would be to follow Dan’s post where he calls Sandra a pig, because she hasn’t earned his respect yet. And Dan, if the pig at the end of your cute little rhyme wasn’t Sandra, then who was it? |
What are you hoping the Church as an institution will confess to? Having had leadership and members who have made awful, horrific decisions in the past?
That was not a rhyme; it’s an object lesson. The pig represents anyone who is eager to argue, but not necessarily interested in facts, as you were shown to be in #37. I imagine you could have scripted a paragraph yourself about the sequence of events and the roles of the various participants in the massacre, and if Turley had written that exact paragraph, you would have found fault with it. You definitely found what you were looking for in Turley’s article, despite the fact that it was not actually in the text. |
tired, The Tanner stuff came when you brought up the closed nature of the Church archives. It is well known that the Tanners have been very vocal about how they were denied access. I took a wild stab that you were mentally referencing their writings in making that comment. If you weren’t, why not just say so and move on? I agree though that the Tanners are distracting from the main issue. I’ll drop it if you will. |
Done as long as you get the last word? So go on, boys, and quibble your way around Turley’s obvious declaration that the Indians did the killing of the women and the children. You would like to infer otherwise, but his words are plain. Who, Dan is interested in the facts? At least I have read the books (both pro and con). #37 is not accurate. GO READ THE BOOKS. The women and children were being killed before the Indians got down from the hills. |
Full quote on the massacre from Turley: I’ve never read any of the books. All of what I know about the MMM comes from scattered snippets from church and the blogs. But this quote sure seems to plainly read that the Paiutes killed the women and children. |
tired, if you want to make one last comment about the Tanner-issue, I promise I won’t respond. Happy? |
Fine. I concede. When Turley says “militiamen did most of the killing,” it’s code for “The Indians did it.” Today we commemorate senseless and tragic deaths in New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Utah. I don’t have the stomach any more to argue about the plain meaning of someone else’s words. God bless the victims and their families and may He bestow the appropriate measure of justice and mercy to all who ordered and carried out those vile acts. |
LOL, How long ago was it Dan was posting the entire internet and fighting with everybody? Tired, would you e-mail me? gardnera@netutah.com Nobody warn him, I’ll be honest about myself. |
Oh, I got my Dan’s mixed up. Dan E., have you read Juanita Brooks’ account? Because it was the most even handed of the ones I read, honestly. I didn’t get a tone of accusation at all. It seemed quite thoroughly researched and neutral, which is why that’s the one I used the most. Where the heck is Ardis when we need her? |
Oh Left Field, that was no concession. You are quoting Nephi Johnson’s words, I was quoting Turley’s. And that qualifier doesn’t wipe out his previous statement, just ask Norm. May God bless us to understand those terrible acts, to prevent such tragedy in the future. And Ann, I will sure think about that. But first, do you play the flute, by chance? |
No, I’m musically challenged, although I’m sort of a genius at rhythm. Why? I wish I could, it’s a lovely instrument. |
For the record, the Deseret News is calling Henry Eyring’s statement today an apology for the massacre. TM – any errors in the article other than where Turley takes a position on a disputed point and acknowledges the existence of evidence for another interpretation (in the field, by the way, this is not called an error; rather, it’s called a historical dispute)? I see that this point is one I noted before you posted; I’d be interested in any original points you might like to bring up. You’ve read the books, after all. If this is too exhausting, I understand. I also met the Tanners at Sunstone once (and, TM, it was ‘Jerald,’ not ‘Gerald’). Sandra is universally acknowledged to be a nice person. As historians, they were agenda driven, a flaw that harms all such work (the parallelomania over at FARMS is another example of this), but as noted, they were also occasionally capable of historical integrity. |
#46, so not true. Nobody around here believes that, despite the level of secrecy. I don’t have an opinion on the Tanners, one way or another. I just remember reading two books that were so obviously biased that I chose to disregard what they wrote. DKL speaks very highly of them and that means something to me. Tired, you know, hon, you ain’t bantering. You’re being a jerk, and that’s too bad, because you make some good points lost in the bs of one-up-man-ship. This is banter: http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/gsts-greatest-hits/ This is kind of rude: “Matt is sure worked up about this movie! Has anyone told him that it is not a documentary?” I’m assuming you’re new at blogging, I blasted on to the scene offending people with my racist viewpoints and other crazy stuff, others tend to do the same thing (I think I’m the only one with racist inclinations), we come on and get real excited and we are offensive. Tone it down, hon, or I’m going to come over to your house and slap you around. Or something. Maybe go lay on the couch and mull life’s inequities strongly. ps if it makes you feel any better, some of us have been banned from other blogs for being offensive, and I’ve been threatened. Mostly for cussing or being vulgar, which I truly regret, everyone. |
#46, I mean, here in Cedar City, UT. Nobody blames the Paiutes. Not that I’ve ever heard. If they did even a tenth of what they’re rumored to have done, they were still simply pawns. I don’t think Paiutes were ever all that blood thirsty. They’re sort of lazy and good natured. And alcoholic. That may seem racist, but it’s as true as saying that Irish are trashy and alcoholic, from which I stem–or French Quebec men are really really mysoginistic and abusive. I think I’m digging myself a hole here. |
annegb, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. |
Oh well, if after 100 years the Deseret News says so…I guess it is settled! Come on Matt, that is a plain error not a dispute. Mormons participated in killing women and children. Where and when was that disputed, Matt? It wasn’t. Turley is either in complete error for thinking that only Indians attacked women and children, or his writing is ambiguous, and his ambiguity favors his cause. Thanks for the lecture, but I understand the difference between a historical dispute and an error. I was asked and asked for an example of an error in the Ensign article. I gave one. And as the song goes, give the people what they want. Whether in your pages and pages of ranting you may have made a similar point, I don’t know. You just have so many interesting points, (ranging from facial expressions to subtle innuendo)it’s hard for us little people to keep up. If you already made the point then what in Zues’ name are you arguing about? |
#55, I didn’t mean to blame the Paiutes. I don’t know enough the blame anyone (though I’m fairly certain that I didn’t do it). The Turley report reads to me that most of the killing was done by the militiamen, but the Paiutes were the ones who took care of the women and children. (If the militiamen did not do _all_ of the killing, someone else did some killing and the only actors we have left to do the killing are the Paiutes. And the only ones they were described as attacking were the women and children.) |
To be honest, I don’t understand why the MMM is getting all this attention. And the truth is, Mormons were involved in other massacres as well (of Native Americans). No attention is paid to those. If we had become a war-loving religion, it would be interesting and important to see where the foundation was laid. But (God save us from the hawks), we are not typically found murdering tourists. In fact, our leaders have spoken pretty boldly against war. The MMM was a tragic anomoly with great lessons to be learned–and certainly one of the most important is what happens when we rely on authority rather than conscience. But I’m getting really tired of gazing on that long past scene. There is so much work to do to become a better people, to actually live our religion by serving one another, feeding the hungry, etc. A monument has been erected to commemorate the tragedy; an apology (as of today) has been offered. The truth has certainly been approached if not fully told (because everyone who knows the real and full truth is dead). Now, let there be forgiveness and reconciliation. This is the second blog on this site which has gotten into unflattering banter on this subject. I have enjoyed Matt B’s insights, but I hate to have his valuable posts become preludes to verbal brawls. I really hate it. |
Margaret’s right. What Brigham Young did to the indians up north amounted to slaughter. If I’m remembering right. It was where that Fort place is just inside of Wyoming. Bridger. It was a betrayal thing. |
tiredmormon The vitriole against the Tanners was a nice touch though. I never have figured out why everyone freaks out about the Tanners. I certainly don’t freak out when people mention them. In fact, I wrote an obituary for Jerald Tanner at BCC, and I received many positive responses. You seem to simply be using your mistaken preconceptions as a basis to rail against other Mormons. Perhaps a better pseudonym for you would be “lamemormon.” tiredmormon, Juanita’s work should be respected more than Turley’s, in my humble opinion, because she spent her life doing original historical research at great personal risk and sacrifice. Blah, blah, blah. Tune into Episode 11 of Mormon Matters in order to hear Roasted Tomatoes and I say exactly that and much, much, more. That said, Juanita’s work has become increasingly dated, and she’s no longer alive to update it. Turley’s upcoming work may well be the kind of comprehensive treatment that addresses everything that’s been uncovered in the meantime. Or maybe it won’t. Either way, nobody’s claiming that it will hold the same landmark position in the history of Mormon Studies that Brooks’ book does. tiredmormon …while Hinkley bought hundreds of his forgeries, with our tithing money, only to bury them in the vaults. That fact may hurt the pathological theory… You’ve read too much of Krakauer’s lies. He states in his book Under the Banner of Heaven, “More than 400 of these fraudulent artifacts were purchased by the LDS Church… then squirreled away in a vault to keep them from the public eye.” This is undoubtedly your source, and it’s characteristic of the low quality of information you’re providing in your comments. First of all, the very notion that Hoffman forged hundreds of documents is utterly preposterous. It takes a lot of time to forge a document. Hoffman was fantastically prolific, which meant that he forged around 60 documents total. Hoffman did provide 393 documents to the LDS church, 345 of which were authentic court records that the LDS church returned to their respective jurisdictions. 48 of those documents that the LDS church purchased were forgeries. We know this because the church had to produce an inventory of these purchase for the murder trial. Far from trying to “bury them in the vaults,” the church published accounts of the most controversial documents in the Ensign. Hoffman himself said of one controversial document, “It surprised me a bit that the Church didn’t buy it up quick and stash it away somewhere.” If you’re going to be as shrill as you are when it comes to accusing people of making mistakes, you should try to be wrong less often. |
Way to cherry pick your way through old posts while avoiding my main point and ignoring the original context of those posts. Your Hoffman crap is the same stuff Turley cried about which Krak addressed in his appendix. After re-reading my various Hoffman books, the Farms article, and Turley’s book, I agree with Krak. I understand mistakes. I try to understand MMM. Nobody here seems to want understanding, it is all about defending the faith, from all injustice, both real and percieved. To me, in my humble opinion, it has seemed irrational, full of personal attack and minor side points. I don’t recall resorting name calling, but that is all I have been getting here (and in the rest of the bloggernacle). I would love to continue the debate, but I am sick of the playground taunts. I’m a movin’ on. “lamemormon” out. |
Playing the martyr isn’t likely to do much convincing. Never worked for me on non-Mormon discussion groups anyway… DKL is just something you have to live with if you want to play on the bloggernacle. We’ve all taken crap from him at some point or another. Either you get more thick skinned about it or you leave. Simple. |
tiredmormon: Your Hoffman crap is the same stuff Turley cried about which Krak addressed in his appendix. After re-reading my various Hoffman books, the Farms article, and Turley’s book, I agree with Krak. Not only are you wrong, but you’ve now shown that you’re just making this stuff up. My source for the “Hoffman crap” is the Tanners! Check it out yourself. Their book on the topic, Tracking the White Salamander, is online here. The Tanners actually know something about Mormonism; Krakauer’s just a hack. I’m not ignoring context of your comments. On the contrary, I’m emphasizing it; specifically, your false pretension to know something that the rest of us Mormons don’t. You’re definition of “understanding” entails everybody recognizing the poverty of their own position in exchange for accepting the wisdom of yours. |
Seth R: We’ve all taken crap from [DKL] at some point or another. Likewise, I’m sure. |
tiredmormon said: “Church integrity is on the line! But the Morg seems more concerned about playing offense.”(#14) “Maybe the book will be better…but considering the Morg’s low honesty level displayed over the years, I doubt it.”(#42) “I don’t recall resorting name calling, but that is all I have been getting here (and in the rest of the bloggernacle).”(#62) Go take a nap. |
“I don’t recall resorting name calling, but that is all I have been getting here (and in the rest of the bloggernacle).” This is a bit hypocritical don’t you think? What do you call “Morg?” An endearing nickname? I’ve never heard that term used by anyone who didn’t think Mormons were all pathetic brainwashed hellspawn. |
#61 No DKL, you DID misread the context. I only made the Hoffman statement to show that Sandra Tanner is not a pig or pathological in response to Seth and Dan in previous posts (who in my opinion freaked out, so hooray that you didn’t, you are so mature). They made her out, in my opinion, as evil, when in fact she and her late husband (Jerald –thanks there Matt–) occasionally know what they are talking AS YOU SO NOTED IN YOUR POST. So I will revise my comment, just for you DKL. Here is the before: “As I recall, Sandra and Gerald strongly fought the authenticity of Hoffman while Hinkley bought hundreds of his forgeries, with our tithing money, only to bury them in the vaults.” Here is the after: As I recall, Sandra and Jerald strongly fought the authenticity of Hoffman while Hinkley bought hundreds of his documents, some forgeries, with our tithing money, releasing some of those documents and concealing others. And DKL, the fact that the church gave up documents in response to Hoffman’s trial comes too little too late. It didn’t much matter at that point in time anyway. Oh, I would never dare suppose I know more than you, DKL. But the great thing is that Morg information, both good and bad is widely available, like no other time history. So one day, we may all know the facts as well as you! THE WHOLE POINT WAS THAT THE TANNERS WERE NOT PURE EVIL, THAT WAS THE CONTEXT WHICH YOU MISSED! You also missed the CONTEXT of my Juanita post. That was in RESPONSE to Dan’s question in #22 about why I thought Juanita deserved more respect than Turley. I was not posturing, I was answering Dan’s question. Juanita is the bomb. So why don’t you direct Dan to your podcast so that he can understand why Juanita is so important leave me out of it? Or did you just have to let everyone know that you are podcasting? So DKL, instead of cherry picking through old posts, why don’t you read the backlog before you go off attacking mute points. #67 Seth, no, that is not hypocritical because I have not personally insulted any of the bloggers in these posts, but I have been pegged ‘jerk’ ‘pig’ ‘lame’. I personally refer to the church as Morg because it is so much more than a church. It is a large organization encompassing way more than mere religion and ‘church’ does not adequately describe it. It is a large Mormon Organization = Morg. #66 – mommy, I am up from my nap. Can anyone say that the church has been open about MMM over the years? Now that they are choosing to discuss it, I truly hope they will be as honest as possible. The world is watching. |
tiredmormon said: “I personally refer to the church as Morg because it is so much more than a church. It is a large organization encompassing way more than mere religion and ‘church’ does not adequately describe it. It is a large Mormon Organization = Morg.” Nice (lame) spin. We all know “Morg” is an insult. Hey, perhaps DKL personally referred to you as “lame” because you’re so much more than a tiredmormon. You are a lame poster encompassing way more than a mere tiredmormon, and tiredmormon does not adequately describe you. |
tiredmormon, no matter how you try to cast it, you can’t change the context. The basic problem here is that you’ve based your arguments on the notion that all Mormons are fundamentally alike. Because Dan’s response irritates you and because you think it reflects a prevalent Mormon view, you disparage all Mormons. Because you’ve read Krakauer and many Mormons haven’t read even that much, you disparage the historical knowledge of all Mormons (in spite of the fact that Matt B is an award winning, trained historian). I’m sure you also take exception to the typical Mormon practice of grouping disaffected members into the same category (viz., apostate) — and not without justification. Thus, I find it odd that you seem to be committing the same offense against Mormons by lumping them all into a single group. I think what you’ll find is that I hold a great many typical Mormon views, along with several unusual or less orthodox ones. I cannot speak for Dan Ellsworth, but in my experience, I’ve observed that he also has some typically Mormon views and some less orthodox views, and his mix is different from mine. Such is the case with everybody that blogs here, and such is the case with Mormons in general. In the end, Looking for the “typical Mormon” is like looking for the man who is mugged every 2 minutes in New York City. |
“Morg” is a term that originated on the ex-Mormon discussion boards. It is created by combining the words “Mormon” and “Borg” (from Star Trek – a race of half human/half robots composed of mindless drones ruled by a central computer). The implication is that all Mormons are, in fact, brainwashed, intellectually lazy, and incapable of original thought. That is what the word means. Are you saying you were using the word without knowing what it meant? Because it is definitely an insult and borders on religious bigotry. |
tired, I didn’t freak out- I promise. I just realized I wasn’t getting anywhere with you, and as DKL pointed out, there are so many other people here who are so much more broad-minded than you, and so much less predictable. That doesn’t make you a bad person; you are probably a great guy or girl in many ways. But I think a lot of us come to the blogs hoping to learn from each other in some way, and it’s very hard to learn from someone who is predictable, and that is just as true for people who are predictably apologist as it is for those who are predictably contrarian. |
Thanks, DKL, but I have been to enough Sunstone conferences to know that not all Mormons think alike. DKL, aren’t jumping to conclusions by saying that I think all Mormons are alike? Was I talking to all Mormons? No, I was talking to Dan. And I found it frustrating after argued about Brooks and on and on that HE finally mentioned that he had not even read her book. When I said Read the Book, I was talking to him, not to you, not my mommy, not to Gordon B., just to him. And Dan, when you jumped to the conclusion that I was trying to tear you from your faith, it seemed pretty hysterical (and note DKL, that I was talking to Dan). I never made that attempt. As much fun as facing excommunication would be…I don’t consider myself a breaker of the faith. I don’t enjoy the mud, but I think the characters of Mormon history (Tanners, Brooks, etc.) are more complex than one-sided demonoids that Dan made them out to be. Dan, you said some pretty nasty stuff about the Tanners. Maybe DKL has now shown you that they are not all bad, which was my point. I never held them beyond reproach, but I do think they are entitled to respect. Despite all of the senseless sidetracks, I am still waiting for an answer to my original question waayyy back when, which was: why does September Dawn get so much criticism when it is a work of fiction and Turley’s article remains unscathed? I had a lot of problems with Turley’s article. Dan disagrees with my reading, so I have to concede? All of my TBM friends were under the impression, after reading the article, that only Indians killed women and children. And so did Norm. I think I am justified in that reading. I’m glad Turley wrote the article. I’m glad the church is talking about it. But forgive me for being suspicious when the church historian writes the history of the ugliest event in Mormon history. And if Morg is so offensive, I won’t use it anymore. |
David, where the heck have you been? We’ve been talking Fawn Brodie, for heaven’s sake :). I’ve been waiting for you to come on and post half the internet. I don’t think Krakauer lied intentionally. It’s hard when you’re writing something to get every fact correct. He should have, but some of his “lies” were simply the way he misperceived things, others were bad research. But I’ve done a few things and constantly checked my facts and still gotten things wrong. I liked that book, as you know, despite the flaws. tired, check your e-mail. |
tired,
Did you read my first sentence in comment #34?
Did you consider 22 and 30 nasty? Is the analogy nasty? The reference to a pig? If so, I can change it to a duck in a pond full of scum. There’s nothing inherently yuck about a duck, and the analogy still almost works. There is a difference between an analogy and a label. A label says “so-and-so is a pig.” An analogy says “Arguing with so-and-so is like wrestling with a pig because…”
And that is why I won’t discuss the merits of Brooks’ account. If I were discounting it outright, then you would have cause to be bothered. All I said is that it’s unfair to apply one standard of skepticism to her, and another to Turley. You disagree, and that’s fine. As far as my not reading Brooks’ book, I have a ton of other things I need to read that are ahead of her in line. If I do get curious enough about MMM to get around to reading it (unlikely- MMM is just really not a big part of my psyche), I’ll read it with the attitude that she approached it honestly.
Now that’s a useful discussion. There are a lot of people who disagree with you about September Dawn being a work of fiction. Read the comments here: To be fair, a google search turns up a lot more entries doubting its historical accuracy; apparently, the sheer awfulness of the movie had the effect of making people doubt what was portrayed. Parenthetically, a buddy of mine went to see it and in the theater, during the movie, a guy behind him said “Those f*ing Mormons!” and he and his wife walked out of the theater. |
tiredmormon, fair enough. My answer to your question about why the negative focus on September Dawn when Turley gets off the hook is this: Many, many people have heard of September Dawn, and it will end up being the soul data point for many people about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Even among Mormons, Turley is basically unknown. annegb, sorry for my absence. I hate missing opportunities to step onto my soapbox about how great Fawn Brodie is. This past few months have been insanely busy for me at work, at home, and at church. It’s been everything I could to simply to publish once a week (e.g., last week I didn’t even post a blog). |
This is why (I promise!) I’m disconnecting. Between my illness, the remodel, my kids (someday you guys when you hear people say they should have skipped the kids and gone straight to grandkids, you’ll know exactly what they mean), my callings, my crazy crazy ward, geez, it all has serously infringed on my blogging. I totally understand. Although you haven’t nearly waxed as poetic as you can on Sister Brodie :) |
I have travelled to salt lake city many times, and I have spoke about the deception started by Joseph Smith whether it was out of fear or a miss guided belief…we will never know for he’s in his grave now….their are many good people that are lead astray by this false hope (Man>god) or struggling to be good enough for the 3rd heaven…and I could go on, but what I like about this movie is that it showed the contrast between the 2 beliefs.. I have read the book of Mormons and the other books that hold the real doctrinal beliefs…. and I thought they did a great job on the film… ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free….. |