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I think lots of Canadians have felt that for a long time. The big issue is that the Quebec separatists want to leave but not take their part of the debt with them and keep the horrible agreements foisted on Newfoundland and the Atlantic Provinces during the 70′s and 80′s. (Especially regarding hydro-power) I think the west in particular would love Quebec to leave. I just can’t see Quebec leaving as a practical matter. Ontario has been probably the most bilingual of all the provinces outside of western New Brunswick. |
Reminds me of all the jokes about the Toledo War between Ohio and Michigan (the usual Ohioan punchline is “we should have let them have it.”) Very few separatist movements (of the “single small province wanting to leave a large modern federal state” variety) are led or spoken for by reasonable, calm people. And every population (including unreasonably demanding ones) has foolish, intolerant members who will say the worst possible thing in public. I wouldn’t ascribe the anti-headscarf attitude to the Quebec separatist movement at large, in any case — I’m sure we can rustle up similar quotes from almost any given population. (and I’d agree that the French-speaking minority seems to be more than a little overbearing and interfering, and I thought the French stuff on everything in Toronto was a little silly… on the other hand, obviously not everyone in the rest of Canada wants them to leave, since as far as I’m aware, these concessions were only made because of the threat of secession… right? It’s Canada’s version of the Mason-Dixon line: everyone’s just a little bit less than annoyed enough to make a fight out of it…) |
I’m just constantly shocked, though maybe I shouldn’t be, by the prejudice and intolerance I see coming out of Québec. Several months ago there was a kerfuffle as Quebeckers fought the (provincial government ruling) that veiled Muslim women could vote without unveiling as long as they provided photo I.D. As I recall, they even objected to the idea of having a female elections officer on hand for the Muslim women to privately unveil themselves to for identification purposes. Earlier this year, a small Québec town by the name of Herouxville (with, I believe, no actual Muslim residents) proclaimed that it would not tolerate stoning or female circumcision. This is kind of like Edgewater, Maryland proclaiming that it won’t tolerate polygamy or Blood Atonement. If they had had stonings or incidents of female circumcision — because there are some groups of Muslims who do still do those things — it would be one thing. But to announce it preemptively like that just goes to show how ignorant and fearful they are. I will stand against Bin Laden and his ilk any day of the week. Female circumcision is an abomination and an insult to God and His creation. But not every Muslim is an extremist and I’m feeling very protective on behalf of a people I recognize as kindred spirits. We are all children of The Book and I won’t stand quietly by as any of us, Christian, Jew or Muslim, are persecuted. And it does look to me like certain segments of Western culture (sadly, not just Québec) are gearing up for a nice little pogrom. Oh, it’ll be legal and mostly blood-less of course. We in the West are “the civilized ones” after all. But the intent — to drive out or assimilate the offensive “other” — is there just the same. |
I don’t know very much about Canada, except that for years, I was a hardcore Rush fan, even taking my parents to their concert in L.A. when I was in high school. |
I’ve spent a few months of my life in Toronto and Montreal for work. While I enjoyed both cities I have to say that after a while the Quebec issue and surrounding cultural issues got a bit irritating in Montreal. The culmination of this was when I was detained at customs for several hours. The agent tried to insist that we have the conversation in French. I replied that I don’t speak French, she looked annoyed and muttered something to a co-worker about Americans and their level of education. I replied that I got the gist of what she said and that I speak three languages, French just happens to not be one of them. Things went downhill from there and in the end she tried to extort money from me. I refused and she got furious. During this time there were also several references to how horrible the USA and Walmart are. Though I agree with her about Walmart I don’t see what it had to do with my being admitted to the country. |
Thanks for the interesting discussion – I have followed it remotely from Boston as it is geographically near. I too have found it to be quaint and kind of silly from a distance – glad I don’t see it up close. |
I wonder what would have happened if the US had kept going after Robert E. Lee had surrendered at Appomattox and simply marched north for some good old fashioned annexation. We certainly had the army to do it with and a lot of Canadians were pretty darn certain that they were next once the USA finished with the Confederacy. |
My wife and I spent a three weeks in Quebec this summer. I loved it there. We don’t speak a bit of French. Not once in all that time did we feel or sense anything but cordiality and kindness. Half of that time was in Eastern Quebec where we literally spent days without encountering an Anglophone. We struggled to communicate, but everywhere we went people were kind and went out of their way to try to understand and help us. The only discord we encountered was an English speaking Quebeker who was put out that her kids were forced to be fluent in French before they could graduate from High School. Perhaps they should go the second mile and learn Spanish as well. I’d love to bi-lingual. Quebec is more beautiful and prosperous than I expected, after hearing so much bellyacheing about it. The farms were beautiful, the villages clean and charming. I didn’t think much of Montreal, but then I don’t think much of New York or Los Angeles either. Quebec City was fabulous! Perhaps, if I had to live there for an extended period, I may change my mind. I doubt it though. My niece lived there for two years and loved every moment of her stay. I came away with only one regret. I wish I could speak French, so I could get to know those lovely people better. |
BTW – Quebekers are no more French than Americans are English. |
Given that Elizabeth II is still Queen of Canada, I would wager that French Canadians are quite a bit more French than Americans are English. |
I beg to differ. I found Quebekers are more French than Parisians, in all the wrong ways. |
John Mansfield, Your argument would seem to support the notion that French Canadians are more British than Americans are. |
If Quebec breaks away from Canada, does that mean the USA gets Nova Scotia? |
random John, my impression is that the fierce anti-assimilation attitude in Quebec stems from an antipathy to being subjects of Her Royal Majesty. I think that is why Canada couldn’t draft soldiers in WWII, in particular. |
Even in Québc secedes, we would still have a significant francophone population in Nouveau-Brunswick, and as you mentioned, Ontario. I have a much easier time with the two official languages of this great country, than I do with the U.S. accommodating millions of Spanish speakers who came to the country two centuries AFTER English had been established as the dominant and quasi-official language. At least in eastern Canada the francophones have a significantly more substantial historical claim than do the illegal Spanish speakers or Hmong in places like Wisconsin and Minnesota, yet shoppers in Wisconsin (and practically any other American state) must endure bilingual packaging, bilingual newsletters from their schools, other bilingual government announcements, and ATMs which force you to choose between English, Spanish, and Hmong. |
It’s hard to tell what to make of this piece. If it’s satire, I think it fails. If it is not, I fail to understand how PDE can deny the right of the Quebecois to insist on maintaining their own culture, language, and traditions while she herself had said the following in her previous post about defending the uniqueness of Mormon culture in Salt Lake City: “Why is it that we have to prove our tolerance by letting them do as they like yet they never prove their tolerance by respecting our laws? Why are they even moving to the heart of Mormondom in the first place? Some of them are probably moving for jobs but all of them? I’m not sure I can believe it. I’m sure many of them are moving there for affordable housing and safe neighborhoods — the latter of which would seem to me to be a product of the very liquor ordinances they’re trying to pull down(1). Change a few words here and there and you have the same argument a Quebecois would presumably make in defense of their own culture. Care to explain how the thesis of this post can be reconciled with the thesis of your previous post? One could respond to your previous post by tweaking the first line of this one: “Memo to the [Mormons]: the war is over. [Deseret] lost. You are [American] territory now. In fact, you’ve been [American] territory for [111] years.†It seems to me you can either defend the thesis of your first post or the thesis of your second. But you can’t have it both ways. |
Interesting point, Not-so-innocent. I hadn’t thought of it that way. I don’t think your argument is a perfect parallel though. I don’t want the non-Mormons of Salt Lake City to be unable to live their lives as they wish. Nor do I advocate driving them out. I just wish that our “capital” (deny it however much you want but you know the rest of the world can’t help but see it that way, at least for now) — which represents in a lot of ways the City of Zion that Joseph Smith spent much of his life trying to build — could remain such. In both cases I see the same solution: the Québécoise and the Mormons are losing out to population pressure. So knuckle down, shut up and start popping out more babies! ;) You can’t depend on the World Wildlife Federation to set up preserves and breeding plans for you. You gotta do it yourselves. |
“I don’t want the non-Mormons of Salt Lake City to be unable to live their lives as they wish.” Ay, there’s the rub. The “non-Mormon” argument about undue Mormon influence in Salt Lake City culture is precisely that many people ARE inconvenienced by the mores of the dominant culture. A case in point are Utah’s unique liquor laws. And just as you wouldn’t “advocate driving out” non-members, I suspect that most Québécoise wouldn’t favor driving out non-natives. Rather, I imagine that they would prefer that immigrants learn to appreciate and respect the peculiarities of their culture (which they see, rightly or wrongly, as besieged). I don’t know, but it seems to me that the parallel is pretty clear. That’s not to say that I know what the answer is: it may be one of the tensions that is implicit anywhere minority or peripheral cultures (such as the LDS or French-Canadian cultures) find themselves coming into contact with a dominant culture that doesn’t share, or is actually hostile to, its values. To the extent that we share a desire to see Salt Lake City maintain its distinctive characteristics (which arose because of its peculiar, and fascinating, history), it seems to me that we ought to be at least somewhat sympathetic to the struggles of other groups that find themselves in an analogous position. That’s not to say that they may not go too far in one way or another in affirming their alleged “uniqueness.” But I think we should be able to see where they are coming from. |