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| Sunday, May 19, 2013 |
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Good post. As I commented on the appropriate general conference thread, it’s worth noting that one of Sister Beck’s counselors is a single woman who has never been married and has no children. The other counselor is Costa Rican. What I think is very strange about the reaction to her talk is this: So many women express an opinion that implies that if Sister Beck had only heard their stories and understood their predicaments, then she’d have thought twice about giving her talk. Perhaps she has heard stories like those. Perhaps she does understand the predicament of women like them. |
I enjoyed her approach even though I thought her diction needed a bit of finessing here and there. Now I’d LOVE to see her take that direct approach and address a topic not addressed solely to the women. There’s nothing wrong with addresses to just one gender–heck, that’s why we have the PH and RS sessions. She seems confidant enough to talk to *everyone*. I’m looking forward to hearing her do that. |
Me too. I would love a talk directed, gospel-centered, at ALL of us, from a woman. It seems President Beck might be just the woman to do so, and I look forward to that. |
Sister Allred–who is totally cool–is from El Salvador, not Costa Rica. She has lived just about everywhere else, though. And the other counselor, Sis. Johnson, is wonderful–very funny and human. (But I admit I miss Sister Aileen Clyde and boy do I miss Cheiko. Then again, I miss Marvin J. Ashton and James E. Faust and Marion D. Hanks also. There are some whose like we will never see again.) DKL, I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about in presuming that Sister Beck’s audience was made up of wimpy women having the gall to be enduring personal problems while she was talking. Bunch of two-breasted wusses. If you can just pull out some of that demeaning vocabulary, I’m sure they’ll remember their places. Seriously, I would have no problem taking any of my problems to a Sister Allred. And some I would take to Sister Johnson. But I would approach Sister Beck with considerably more caution and self-consciousness. My sweet and very orthodox husband said after Sister Beck’s talk that she had done much better in another setting, and was quite certain that this particular talk did not represent her at her best. |
You’re not being very nice, PDOE. There were lots of interesting, well-articulated, substantive critiques that I felt added a lot to the discussion. But hey, if you don’t have a substantive response, feel free to moan and mock women who are genuinely troubled by the substance and tenor of the remarks. Dismissiveness always helps. It’s really Christlike. |
Oh, one more thing: My son, who has not attended church in several years, went to the priesthood session. When my mother called (as she often does), I mentioned that my son had gone with his dad and brother to Priesthood. Her reaction was just one question: “Did he wear nice clothes?” Excuse me? Actually, no, he did not. He wore crappy clothes. He always wears crappy clothes. I have bought him “nice” clothes, but he chooses not to wear them, and I choose not to torment him. So I just blatently lied–or maybe I didn’t: “Yes. He looked really good.” You bet he looked good. To me he did. Because I didn’t give a damn what he wore. I cared that he was doing this thing which he had not done for years–going to Priesthood. Oh, and his hair is long. Way past that all-important missionary haircut. But at least (as only the brethren will appreciate this), it’s red hair. |
Margaret, I think that your assuming more about my outlook than is justified by what I’ve actually said. It may also be worth noting that men have two breasts, too. It’s just that men’s breasts tend to be smaller than women’s. Although some men’s breasts are bigger than some women’s breasts. It’s just a distribution, not an absolute. |
Men’s breasts do nothing, so they’re hardly worth noting. How many children have you fed with your breasts? I have no idea why you even have them except in some godly design which values symetry. |
PDOE: I think your post is spot on. Now that the talk transcript has actually been posted, there’s been just a bit of back peddling by some of the moaners, mockers, and whiners. The hue and cry that erupted from the more vocal “feminist” wing of the bloggernacle was indeed a site to behold. Neither President Beck or any other R.S. President will ever be in a win win situation with some in the bloggernalce. Hopefully she will give the complaints their due weight ;-) and then move along. Margaret Young: I think its wonderful that your son went to the Priesthood session, in whatever attire he felt comfortable, and with what hair style he felt comfortable. He’s where he is in his spiritual journey. The fact he may not be at the stage where he would wear missionary attire, is really of little or no consequence. Many in the Church have returned to activity after many years absence–some even on this blog. And, some, like me, even wear white shirts on Sunday because I’m involved in the Y.M program, and have been asked to do that. Not because I think it is required to administer the Sacrament. |
Now that’s just hurtful, Margaret. I think I’m going have a good cry alone in a dark room while I cup my poor, useless breasts. |
Don’t be a wuss. |
Margaret, I agree with Guy about your son. I think it’s great that your son went to priesthood session. I’m also happy to hear that he was there for the red hair comments. You don’t have to be ticked at me. It’s much easier just to revile me in general. I’ll definitely see you Friday. |
Margaret, Did you not realize that DKL received had special hormone treatments so that he could nurse his kids himself? He’s still got one of the more respectable sets of man-breasts in the Boston area. Some people are just so insensitive. |
Reviling DKL is a blood sport among Mormon bloggers. Almost (but not quite) as much fun as critiquing GC talks. We’re an easily amused bunch. |
Margaret, |
Men’s breasts do nothing, so they’re hardly worth noting. How many children have you fed with your breasts? I have no idea why you even have them except in some godly design which values symetry. Margaret, that hurt bad. They recently discovered the appendix might have a purpose after all and I think it’s only a matter of time before a profound meaningful purpose for male nipples is also discovered. Can you even begin to imagine what Arnold Friberg’s paintings would be like without man breasts? No, they just wouldn’t be the same. |
my red haired son went to p’hd with his dad too semi active – prefers to play football then attend church but is still very positve about church as a whole just not wuite got the whole vison yet..but hey hoe he announced he wanted to go to p’hd with dad!! as for sis becks talk sorry but i do think she has just put RS back another 100 yrs for lots of reasons Debrauk… |
I am one of the moaners Guy referred to, who lightened up after reading the talk. I am all about challenging talks- what if Sis. Beck had opened with “Sisters, when was the last time you received a personal revelation?” or “Sisters, some of you have become needlessly reliant on antidepressants” or “Sisters, last night we asked the young men of the Church to stay in good physical shape. Are you setting a good example for your sons and daughters in this area?” |
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I tend to agree that her talk was horrible. My wife was so pissed off by the end of it. I was very uncomfortable during the talk. While she said some good things, it was mixed with 1920s rhetoric. I would agree with Debrauk – she has set us back 100 years. I do think that she picked some great counselors some hopfully the Conference talk was just an anomaly (I hope). |
After I read the transcript of the talk I felt a lot better about it, but it’s sad that she said things that were so divisive among reasonable people, and that didn’t need to be the case. |
Z: I’m sorry you think I’m not being very nice. I’m just talking about things as I see it. And what I saw was a prompt explosion of posts that directly reacted against what Sister Beck had to say. If you have seen other, deeper posts then please, by all means, share the links. I want to see what everyone is saying. Dan — and everyone else who objects to the subject of Sister Beck’s talk: I don’t think it was poor judgment at all. In society’s rush to tell women they can do “anything” we’ve had this implication that “anything” is more valuable than housework, that housework is a waste of time. My biggest problem with the path feminism has taken is that in the process of “liberating” women to do “men’s work,” “women’s work” has been stigmatized for both genders. My best friend who has been a stay-at-home mom for seven years shrugs and says her mom was never very domestic. There is a WORLD of difference between Martha Stewart (or even Molly Mormon) domesticity and simple, basic hygiene. Not to mention simple, basic nutrition. I won’t go into the details but I will say this: if someone called Child Services on her, I would not be surprised. (I don’t think it’s so bad that they’d do anything but the dust and junk is so bad over there that I’m afraid to spend time there and I worry about her child developing asthma or other respiratory difficulties.) So, to sum up: I think Sister Beck’s talk was timely. It may be the boot in the rear I need to get control of my house — and I don’t even have any kids to blame the mess on. (Unless you count my husband. ;) ) It takes a certain amount of hubris to say “I’m all about challenging talks” then turn around and say “but they should have challenged me on [X] or [Y].” The whole point of a challenging talk is you are telling people to do something difficult, something that they probably don’t want to do. |
Dan, I took this to be a challenge to be a woman who knows–not at all talking down to any group. Rather, I heard her challenging all to become better than they are. I don’t believe there is an exclusive club at all. We are all at different levels of spiritual development and eternal progression. And, yes, she specifically directed her comments as women. But, are they not as equally applicable to men as well? |
Hey now. |
Geez, Margaret, not to drop names or something–can I come up and plumb your influence and meet all those famous people? Why don’t you give me a brunch or something. I’ll bring the orange juice. Cheiko Okazaki is my hero and I’m completely in awe that you know her. I have all her books and quoted her frequently when I was the homemaking counselor. I hate to do this, but you all, just ignore z. don’t feed the beast. I have mixed emotions about her talk. I was laying on the couch and Bill in his recliner dozing through conference and when I heard her speak, I thought, “oh crap, we’ll be talking about this for weeks on the blog.” She has a point, many young women today don’t seem to realize they are homemakers no matter their other profession. But she could have made it so much more sensitively. The counselor, I can’t remember her name, the single one, could have said those things and been received better. She came to our ward several months ago and she rocks, she’s so funny and kind. I’m not one who blames the listener if the speaker fails to get their message across, is boring, or offends. I actually quite hate those lessons about being a prepared class member and how we’re not spiritual if we don’t get something out of sacrament or a lesson. Heck 99% of them are totally boring. If your audience is so bored or insulted that they don’t get your worthy message, it’s your bad. That being said, I have nothing personal at all against Sister Beck. It’s her job. I just wish she were more approachable. I felt the same way about Elaine Jack and wrote her a sort of nasty letter about her “Get a Life” talk. I’ve since apologized, she accepted and now I think it’s one of the most apropo talks ever given. I guess it’s all relative. |
annegb – I just read Elaine Jack’s Get a Life talk a few weeks ago, and really liked it. What did you find offensive? |
Dear Sister Beck, And Proud Daughter of Eve, Thank you. I had a bishop once who said “You know, I think sometimes God wants to tell us ‘Things sure are tough, but there doesn’t have to be all this drama.’” And at that point in my life, it was absolutely the best counsel. A random thought… if you’re experiencing vaporlock on the “home like the temple” quote, there’s a really great article in “Strengthening our Families.” (I had a roommate who wanted our apartment to be temple-clean once, and of course it was a horrible experience, and then one day I realized “But in the temple we treat everyone with respect!” Then I ran into that article, which echoed a lot of the same ideas about what having a home like a temple really means.) There is more to the temple than lack of clutter, is there not? Rock on Sister Beck. |
PDoE, for the record, I did not intend to mock Pres. Beck or her talk with my ‘Girl In A Whirl’ post, though I can see why you might take it that way. I really just thought a little humor on the general topic would be helpful after all that seriousness. The post has been in the queue for some time now, waiting for the right moment and this seemed to be it. FWIW. |
“Sisters, last night we asked the young men of the Church to stay in good physical shape. Are you setting a good example for your sons and daughters in this area?†Somehow I don’t think that would be a good idea. |
Dan – Wow, I can only imagine the backlash if President Beck had opened with “Sisters, last night we asked the young men of the Church to stay in good physical shape. Are you setting a good example for your sons and daughters in this area?”. My guess is that it would have been even worse than this one, with a lot more people crying after being told they are fat. |
Right, because although it’s good advice for the person’s well-being, it’s a topic that cuts to the heart of a lot of people’s self esteem issues, and should therefore be approached very sensitively, with a lot of attention to how it is said. There’s nothing wrong with putting forth that extra effort. |
Dan – Multiple talks equivalent to Pres. Beck’s are given at each priesthood meeting. Where are all the outraged men? Are the men just bottling it up, while the women are letting it out? |
I can only speak in conjecture, but I think the difference has to do with the fact that there is nothing they say to us in Priesthood that touches on our insecurities. If one of the brethren said to us “Brethren, providing for your family is your most important responsibility second to fatherhood, so LDS men should be in the highest tax brackets relative to other men,” a statement like that would have caused a firestorm and would have left a good number of men feeling like they just got neutered. |
Dan – I agree. I also hope that people who took offense can look at this whole situation, sigh, laugh a little, and move forward. |
Austin (#32) I wouldn’t be surprised. Study after study says that’s pretty much what most men and women do. The women discuss and analyze their feelings to death while the men just sit on them. (Er, their feelings, not the women!) fmhArtemis (#28): Like I said at the end of the post, I don’t intend this for judgment of anyone. I found your post amusing myself. In conjunction with all the other reactions though, the fact that you chose to post it just then said something else to me too. That’s all. Dan (#24): I’m sorry if it appeared I was coming down on you. In retrospect, I might have worded some of that (#22) a little differently. I’m not, for the record, trying to make this an issue of anyone vs. anyone. I’m just amused (in a combination of humor and annoyance that I’m sure God is very familiar with by now) by the very human tendency to be dissatisfied when you finally get what you’ve been asking for. I agree that we should take some care not to offend others, especially those we’re ministering to. On the other hand, some people will be offended by anything and at some point you’ve just got to forge ahead — it’s that or tie yourself in such complete linguistic knots that the point you’re making is totally incomprehensible. |
A good point, though I don’t think the situations are quite analogous. Every woman — from the darkest, most cramped little apartment ever to be called public housing to the most luxurious mansion — can control the level of cleanliness in her home. There’s very little a man can do to put himself in the highest tax bracket. That would be saying that every man in the church must have the same job, whereas what Sister Beck was saying that every woman should strive to do her job well. (I believe that doing that job well includes permanently assigning certain chores to someone other than myself. No one said being the best at housework doesn’t include some healthy division of labor!) Maybe a better example would be: “Brethren, providing for your family’s needs — not wants! — is your most important responsibility second to fatherhood, so LDS men should be the best at saying “no!” to their kids.” ;) |
PDoE, I agree- I really think anyone who is still angry about Pres. Beck’s talk is choosing to remain angry. I found it jarring at first, but that has also been true of some of my favorite talks. |
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I know I am late to this, but it occurs to me that Pres Kimball’s talk years ago against hunting may have been an equivalent. If you want to see a “real” man get defensive, remind him of Pres Kimball’s “Don’t Shoot the Little Birds” talk. I nearly got thrown out of a stake president’s office once, and I was only joking. |
Oh, Austin, I was a fool at the time. I actually loved it at the time, but I thought there are people who are truly enduring tragedies who might have been offended. It was my bad, a power play, or something stupid like that. We’re friends now. Now, being a lot older and living in a ward with a bunch of whiners, I think it’s one of the best talks I’ve ever heard. I listened to Sister Beck’s talk again (I recorded conference) and you know, I must say again that I think young wives need to hear this. I’m a little troubled at the lack of homemaking skills in the younger generation. Besides that, there is a wealth of wisdom in the talk. Maybe if we just abandon the adversary relationship and take it at face value without looking for a way to feel slighted, we could all learn something. |
