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What do you mean by that last question? Do you mean “am I the only one who can be consistently morally content in the Church?” Or do you mean “do I (with the points listed above) represent the only kind of person who can be consistently morally content in the Church?” For the first option, I’d say I don’t think you’re the only one. Going by what you’re said, I think I’m in the same boat as you. As for the second question, well, we do say “moderation in all things…” Maybe a moderate position is the most stable one for the reasons you noted. |
I mean, is a moderate like me the only kind of person who can be content in the Church? |
Wow. Fascinating post, Ellsworth. I think I’m pretty closely aligned with you politically, and I tend to be fairly content in the Church (although I was considerably nonplussed and downright annoyed when the deacons failed to bring the sacrament out to the foyer yesterday). But I know some solid political conservatives who are Church history buffs (i.e., very well-informed) who seem to be quite content in the Church. Maybe they are outliers in the dataset? |
I know some conservative folk who are knowledgeable in Church history as well, but I think many or most of them doubt and question many of the more bizarre events in the historical record. |
By the way, the lack of need for purity may be what is allowing me to enjoy the Patriots this season. Filming or no, they are reminiscent of the 2000 Rams. I really appreciate what they did to the Cowboys last night. |
I consider myself a moderate and I’m not content. Maybe I’m more of a liberal. I don’t understand why you say conservatives aren’t content, are you saying they’re settling because they don’t want to know more? Slightly side note: I was raised in a an alcoholic home with no real standards. My mother gave me my first drink and cigarette and if I’d chosen to sleep with my boyfriend at 12, I’m certain she’d have let him move in. I wasn’t taught many standards, and I struggled in many ways. But somehow, I had some morals. I found my mother in bed with a man who wasn’t my dad when I was 10 and I KNEW that was wrong. Inside I knew there was more and I fought like hell to learn what it was. So I think morals are actually things outside of religion, I think they’re deep inside everyone. And there are things I find morally repugnant about the church, but it’s about the social structure, the way people interpret the goldness of their butts regarding their church membership and activity. |
I would lean more to the liberal side of the spectrum and I am not content. I think I am more like Anne from the political spectrum as well as finding things morally repugnant in the Church. It seems to me that many conservatives I know are fairly comfortable as they tend to ignore anything that could be construed as controversial. I suppose it is not a bad approach overall if you want to remain content – just not the most intellectually honest approach. Besides, discontentment is the root of change – if we are discontented with something in the Church then we can work to change it (at least those things that are cultural baggage). |
Ellsworth, You said – “I don’t demand purity from my leaders(a conservative moral component I disagree with)” Are you sure that the conservative respect for “purity and sanctity” necessarily applies to the leadership of the organization, or does it really apply to a respect for purity and sanctity in a group as a whole? I think that a moderate is one who would have balanced beliefs with respect to all five components without weighing any couple components as more or less important than the others. |
As I read the comments, it seems to me that this is little more than a “Liahona/Iron Rod” debate with a scientific veneer. |
Great post. Politically I vote conservativly. I am content in my faith and consider myself a moderate. Number 3 and 4 of Haidt’s matrix do not come to me naturally but within certain boundaries it is important. Jota- Moderation or (maybe regulation) in all five components is a good point. Marcia |
Jota G,
I think both, but given conservatives’ authoritarian tendencies, I think they want leaders they can revere. At the member level, liberals will be much more tolerant of views that are not always faith-promoting, and conservatives are sticklers about “staying on message.” |
Dan, while liberals may generally be more tolerant of views that are not always faith promoting, I have found them generally less tolerant of the belief systems of others. |
Ellsworth, In my experience, it tends to be the liberal members who are hyper-critical and less tolerant of the perceived imperfections (impurity) of leaders in the Church. Whereas, conservatives, while I’ll agree are more willing to revere leaders, I have also found them to be more willing to forgive and get past leaders’ imperfections. Have you had a different experience? |
I should have rewritten that last sentence to begin: “While I agree that conservatives are more willing to revere leaders…” That’s what happens when you edit on the fly in between doing other things. |
Jota — If LDS conservatives and liberals were equally well-informed about the imperfections of leaders, you might be right to conclude that LDS liberals are, on the whole, less tolerant of said imperfections. But given the widespread ignorance of LDS conservatives about much of the problematic statements/actions of the LDS leadership, I think it’s hard to make this claim persuasively. One could argue that LDS liberals (at least the ones who remain in the Church) are more tolerant of “perceived imperfections of leaders in the Church” because they remain, while LDS conservatives would be less tolerant, given their inability or unwillingness to come to terms with the historical data that signal those “imperfections.” I am painting with a really broad brush here, of course. After several years in the Bloggernacle, I think I’ve had to conclude, as was said above, that there are certainly LDS conservatives who are as familiar with all the historical baggage as anyone, yet they remain conservative. Yet I find these folks in the Bloggernacle much more frequently than I do in the “real world.” Aaron B |
Aaron (15), That has been my experience as well. In the “real world,” I find conservatives dismissing unpleasant facts with “Whatever the Lord requires is right,” or “There are a lot of things we just don’t know…” The liberal side of me always mentally completes that last sentence in their behalf: “…and don’t want to even try…” |
Aaron – Maybe LDS conservatives believe that the Church is true, so they do not care or worry about the imperfections, and instead worry about their own imperfections. On the flip side, if the Church is true, maybe the liberals are worrying about things that make no difference. Liberals seem to be constantly trying to ‘fix’ others. “Cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.” It reminds me of people that get upset in traffic, like that will make a difference. Whether the Church is true or not, why worry about the imperfections? If it is true, imperfections do not matter; if it is not true, imperfections do not matter. |
We saw the exact opposite of this in the response to Pres. Beck’s conference talks. The blogs were flooded with conservatives trying to impose their perceptions of purity and loyalty on people who questioned Beck’s phrasing. There were a lot of conservatives actually savoring the doubts of others, saying things like “the guilty taketh the truth to be hard,” and “the wheat are being separated from the chaff,” etc. |
Dan – Interesting. I did not think of the response to Pres. Becks talk that way. I will have to take a better look. I am much more of a moderate than conservative, and often end up up on the liberal side of political arguments. However, the current group that has a stranglehold on liberal thinking does not accept my way of thinking. For some reason, the Democrat Party, which has in recent history been the party of inclusion and free thinking, has become a conform or else Party. So, while I was once a Democrat, I am one no longer. |
I completely agree- the left enforces orthodoxy in political thinking much more stridently than the right these days. I’m not sure this applies in LDS liberals’ approach to their faith, though- I mean, I don’t know of an LDS liberal orthodoxy necessarily, beyond LDS liberals’ perceived duty to sneer at mentions of Boyd K. Packer. On the other hand, if you are conservative in your LDS faith, the orthodoxy is enforced often very excessively. I am someone who sees a need to draw lines doctrinally, and I support the Leadership’s definition of apostsasy that is worthy of excommunication. But I think there are a lot of conservatives in the Church who draw that line much closer in their minds, and celebrate when “apostate feminists” and other imaginary villains cross it. |
Dan – I like that way of thinking. I tend to separate ‘doctrine’ into gospel and structure. Structure is interesting, but has no bearing on my salvation, while gospel is only about my salvation. The Restoration occurred in the West, so the Church has a Western flavor. None of that flavoring is essential to my salvation, so although I enjoy studying it, it has no effect on my salvation or my testimony. I would love to view a time line where the Restoration occurs in the Middle or Far East. |
I take it Austin, that you don’t buy into the theory that the restoration was designed to (or had to) occur in the West? |
Jota – No, I don’t think the Restoration was designed to occur in the West, I think the West was designed to allow the Restoration. |
Ellsworth (11 & 16)- On the one hand you say that conservatives expect purity and sanctity in their leaders. On the other hand you say that conservatives “don’t want to even try…†to know the “unpleasant facts” (I assume you mean the fact that their leaders are impure and unholy). Isn’t it inconsistent to say that conservatives value something, while at the same time saying they purposefully ignore the lack of the thing they supposedly value? Perhaps the answer is that conservatives don’t really value purity and sanctity in the way that you think they do. I value X, but I ignore the absence of X, usually means that I really don’t value X. |
Individualism and collectivism are two poles of the same magnet. The one does not exist without the other. The truth takes a road between them both. Its called populism. |