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How on earth does one “reject liberal politics” and “stand upon the very foundations of this country” at the same time? The foundational ideas of this nation were anything but conservative. They were a bold experiment. |
LOL, busted–it totally doesn’t make sense, huh??? I thought it had a poetic turn and even though I had no clue what it meant (it came to me, probably from the devil in Screwtape Letters), I put it in. I did a different version of this for the local paper. And got called out for the very same phrase. I figured you guys would pick it up. I’m going to use it for my trademark phrase, ie, sounds good, but doesn’t make any sense, sort of “me” don’t you think? Oh, I crack myself up. How’s it going, Nick? Last night we had a family dinner and my gay nephew and his brother came to dinner and a young Marine friend whose brother is gay. As we sat around the table I had a Jewish mother moment: “You know, Michael, Jonathan has a gay brother, too. Isn’t that nice?” We’re very open in our family and I didn’t say that, but we did discuss issues. Openly. Not your typical Mormon family dinner. Plus I almost ripped Bill’s face off for giving me grief about putting towels in the windows, long story. I’ve yet again jacked my own thread. |
Glad to see you have a sense of humor about it, Anne! Oddly enough, that kind of statement would make total sense to the Limbaughs of the world, though. The same people like to shout about how they think the United States of America was founded as a “christian nation.” Very odd, if you have any idea of the actual religious persuasions of many of the founding fathers. In fact, I’d bet Mitt Romney himself would say your sentence made complete sense, and that it was completely true. :-) Life is grand! I’m getting ready to go on vacation to San Francisco, where I’ll participate in the Sundance Stompede (www.stompede.com), a four day country-western dance convention with workshops and big galas. I’ll be performing there with my dance group, the Rain City Rhythm Riders. It makes for a great weekend, and a chance to show off my more, ahem, “fabulous” western attire. ;-) Good for you, encouraging such a dinner conversation! I wonder if your Marine friend had any particular views on “don’t ask, don’t tell?” |
“some think we should support him simply because he’s a Mormon (I vehemently disagree)” I’ve never seen nor heard anyone espouse this position. I see a lot of criticism in the bloggernacle of supporting Mitt just because he’s Mormon, but I seriously don’t know who these criticisms are aimed at, as no one I’ve ever talked to has actually ever said or intimated this. Have I missed something? |
The swift-boating has begun. So sad. |
Thanks for the post Anne – your friend sounds like a wonderful women, even for a Republican :) . I would love to have dinner at your place – it sounds like it would be some lively conversation. Nick – I chuckled when I read your western attire comment. Does it include rhinestones? |
Alas, no rhinestones yet, Devyn. Some of the embroidery, however, boggles the mind. ;-) Maybe if there’s interest out there, I’ll have to share some photos next week. Actually, my performance costume will include sequins–and a Utilikilt! (www.utilikilt.com — ah, the feeling of unbifurcated menswear…) |
This madrassa nonsense has to be put to rest. Barack Obama is a Christian, not a Muslim. He never was a Muslim. And it shouldn’t even matter if he were. It’s kind of hypocritical of a Mormon who wishes that her favorite candidate’s religion were not an issue in the campaign to come around and falsely smear another candidate over religion. |
Here I go in breaking my personal rule about not geting into political discussions on LDS blogs. As you know Anne I am a big fan of yours. I will confess up front that I have not studied the candidates like I need to. My excuse? I have been busy with the baby. I just can’t get myself to support Romney. There are a lot of little things, but the biggest reason I can’t support him is his lack of military experience. I also don’t like it that he has 5 boys and not one has any military service. As a mother of one of American’s finest (army man) I want my leaders to understand the military and the difficult role their families play in keeping America safe. |
You know you’re in trouble when even the most arrogant, hypocritical, transparent liars in the political sphere disdain your character: “Sen. Larry Craig, the Idaho Republican caught in a bathroom sex sting this summer, said GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney ‘threw me under the campaign bus’ when news of his arrest came out. ‘He not only threw me under his campaign bus, he backed up and ran over me again,’ Craig told Matt Lauer of NBC’s ‘Today’ show in an interview taped Sunday.” |
Nick – that is great – I would love to see some pictures! A utilikilt – that is new. JA Benson – I think that is an interesting perspective. Given the all volunteer nature of our army and the relative small numbers of military personnel, the percentage of persons who have experience in the military will decline, so it will be less likely that candidates will have military experience (right or wrong). Therefore, is it a requisite? |
Devyn S. #11 I agree the first hand military experience is dwindling. For me, I want to see that someone in the politician’s family has had the military experience thing at some point. I want to see a parent, brother, child etc… With 5 boys I think that it is hypocritical for him to want to be President and perhaps have to send other people’s kids into harms way, but not one of his 5 sons. That in of itself speaks loads for me about sacrifice and patriotism. |
Don’t forget–Mitt Romney thinks service to one’s country is important! As for his sons, they’ve chosen not to do military service, but RATHER to “serve their country” by trying to get their daddy elected! (Okay, so Romney later admitted he’d made a stupid statement…) |
I’m not a fan of Romney, but Nick don’t you think Craig deserved to be thrown under the bus when he was arrested for soliciting sex in a public bathroom? I still can’t believe he’s refused to resign. (Hurting the party that much more) |
BTW – “liberal” has multiple meanings. Typically to a conservative (who I’d argue share a lot more in common with classic liberalism than modern liberalism) what one means by liberal is statism or socialism. i.e. a kind of big brotherism. Of course conservatives can, on many social issues, be justifiably labeled in the same way. |
Did Senator Clark “deserve” it? Clark, I honestly have some mixed feelings with regard to Senator Craig. I feel for him, in the sense that his background, etc., have been such that he’s too ashamed to come out of the closet, and feels the need to resort to such tactics in order to find whatever satisfaction he can gain there. I feel for the self-loathing he must experience. On the other hand, I despise the fact that a man who secretly has sex with men (although he identifies as straight–a more common profile than you might suppose) pursues a stridently anti-gay political agenda. I despise his secret adultery. I despise his arrogance. I despise his complete unwillingless to admit to facts which seem to be beyond any reasonable doubt. I despise his unwillingness to keep his own word, with regard to resignation. I despise the fact that so many associate Senator Craig’s behavior with gay men in general, when openly gay men don’t need to resort to anonymous bathroom sex–it’s far more commonly the tactic of choice for closet cases. I’ll have to admit, Clark, that while I have a certain amount of compassion, it’s also rather satisfying to see the many cases arising lately, wherein anti-gay politicians who secretly engage in gay sex are being exposed as hypocrites. |
Barack Obama’s biography deserves a read. I think people who read it will come away fairly well convinced that he isn’t a Muslim under cover. He’s intelligent and capable, if inexperienced. He probably won’t get my vote – but people shouldn’t raise Islamic hysteria. It’s just plain wrong to do so. |
Romney gets little love from gay bloggers these days, it seems. Even Andrew Sullivan. (My ‘puter has got a worm and won’t connect with this site any more. But I’m out of town and thought to check in–and see that Anne’s commentary is still rockin’!) |
If politics is a beauty contest, Mitt should win. And Annegb, I don’t think most Southern Baptists hate us, or most evangelicals hate us. This evangelical versus Mormon thing has gotten out of hand, and in my view, some (a small minority of) Mormons are fueling the fire, just like it’s a small minority of evangelicals or SB’s who are fueling the fire. One of the major thing that Mormons have in common with SB’s and evangelicals is personal revelation and walking by the Spirit. The very small minority of “rabid” Christians who aggressively denounce us probably don’t have the Spirit, because if they did, they wouldn’t be so contentious. I think we need to deal more with the calmer elements of evangelical Christianity, and emphasize our doctrine of personal revelation and striving for the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. Because if evangelicals (or anyone) listen to a Mormon speaking by the power of the Spirit, and they do listen with the Spirit, then they’ll receive a testimony of the truth. Being contentious with, or responding to the contention of, that small anti-Mormon minority within Evangelicalism, serves no good purpose. And saying “most” SB’s or evangelicals hate us merely continues the vicious cycle. |
#3 Nick, good question. He knows his brother is gay, I know his brother is gay, but his mother, one of my best friends will not discuss it and thinks maybe he’s not, he was just picked on as a kid. Truly, his parents are the only ones who don’t know. Or accept, I don’t know. #4 Dan, You are so out to lunch. In light of what you said, it makes sense, too. Why DON’T you ask the others about their religin? How is her valid question swiftboating? And if it is, why isn’t is swiftboating when they ask it of Romney? She’s not questioning Obama’s religion, she’s defending her candidate WHO BY THE WAY, IS NOT MY CANDIDATE. She’s saying, I don’t hear anything about Obama’s religion, why are people attacking Mitt? And Hilary’s religion. Hell, she’s probably made a pact with the devil. #9, oh. no, I didn’t know that. Want to go out?? I don’t like Romney, either LOL. I read that about Romney and Craig, Nick, but why isn’t he accusing the rest of the Republican party? Hell, they all headed for the hills on that. And you know, if he’d been a Democrat, Hilary would have lost his number immediately. No, Bookslinger, I think they do. I’ve had people stop speaking to me because I’m a Mormon. Helen Hulse did. I bet she’s a baptist. I sure had a lot of Pentacostals praying over me when I joined the church. They thought I was damned, no lie. I know a lot who are nice, too, though. So maybe I’m completely wrong. I’m also completely tired and going to bed. I repeat, I am not supporting Mitt Romney. I liked Chuck Hagel, actually. Now I don’t like anybody. Pat Schroeder, I like her. |
anne,
Don’t you see? It is NOT Obama’s religion! Your friend is asking why don’t we talk about Obama’s Muslim religion, but HE’S NOT MUSLIM! He is Christian. The purpose of this smear, this whispering gossip that Obama was secretly a Muslim as a kid, is to try to discredit Obama in the eyes of Christians. The right-wing today is SOOOO unbelievably scared of Muslims that they are stooping to this level, passing around secret emails to each other spreading this false rumor that Obama was Muslim (as if that should even matter as a candidate for president). There is a reason why you aren’t hearing about Obama’s religion. That’s because he doesn’t wear his religion on his sleeve, like some candidates. |
Dan, you are completely and totally on a one track mindset about Democrats. You are incapable of thinking anything good about a Republican. It’s impossible to reason with you. “childhood as a Muslim” isn’t the same thing as saying what his religion is today. I said in the post that she belongs to his church. She knows it, she was just throwing out an example about the hypocrisy of the liberal press. I don’t think Romney is making an issue of his religion, he doesn’t want to talk about it, it’s the vast left wing conspiracy that is the media that wants to talk about it, and doesn’t say a word about anybody else’s religion. I still like you, but I think you’ve lost your mind. That’s okay, most of my friends are a little crazy, and so am I. Nobody say, “a little bit?” |
Anne, You still haven’t caught on yet. Conservatives tried in February of this year to lay a charge that Obama attended a Muslim madrassa when his family lived in Indonesia, when he was a child. That claim was false, and when someone made a simple fact check, conservatives from FoxNews shut up. Now they want to try again, sending out an email from an anonymous source trying to say that Obama was secretly a Muslim as a kid. That, again, is NOT true. He was always a Christian. He was NEVER a Muslim. So if your friend truly wishes to learn about Obama’s religion, then she needs to ask about his CHRISTIAN religion as a youth, NOT his Muslim, because he never was a Muslim.
Are you kidding? Read today’s New York Times, Gingerly, Romney Seeks Ties to Christian Right.
Romney WANTS to be seen as a Christian. He does all he CAN to be seen as a Christian. |
” I’ve never seen nor heard anyone espouse this position. I see a lot of criticism in the bloggernacle of supporting Mitt just because he’s Mormon, but I seriously don’t know who these criticisms are aimed at, as no one I’ve ever talked to has actually ever said or intimated this. Have I missed something?” “I’m not a fan of Romney, but Nick don’t you think Craig deserved to be thrown under the bus when he was arrested for soliciting sex in a public bathroom? I still can’t believe he’s refused to resign. (Hurting the party that much more)” There’s no loyalty in politics I guess, even for Mitt Romney. You never, ever stand by your gay friends. |
Dan – This a a quote from Obama’s book ‘Dreams Of My Father’: So, he did attend a Muslim school (according to his own book). |
Keep in mind that not long before Craig’s scandal broke, Senator David Vitter was exposed for having frequented female prostitutes. He acknowledged the behavior, and apologized for it. Rather than being urged to resign his seat, however, he was welcomed at a republican senate luncheon with a standing ovation. In other words, it’s perfectly acceptable among republicans to pay for straight sex with a prostitute, but gay sex is completely unacceptable! |
Dan – If when you say swift-boating, you mean that Obama is going to hurt himself in the long run by campaigning as something he is not, then you may be correct. |
Nick (26), While I think that Vitter should have resigned as well, the main difference is that Craig was actually convicted and sentenced, Vitter was not. If Craig had fought the arrest and been acquitted, I don’t think the calls for his resignation would be as loud. I do, however, agree that in that case there would probably be more people calling for his resignation than are calling for Vitter’s resignation. There’s an old adage in politics – “Never be caught in bed with a dead girl, or a live boy.” |
Barack Obama attended a public school in Indonesia that included instruction in the state religion just as many European schools include religious instruction of the state faith. Ann, it would seem to me that Mitt Romney has to rely on religious tolerance. Therefore it is counterproductive when his supporters raise questions about the religious commitments of his opponents. Romney himself, of course, has been inconsistent by declaring that atheists do not qualify for the presidency. |
Austin,
Does attending a Muslim school make one Muslim? No. I might also add that Article VI of the Constitution of the United States says:
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The religious test only applies to government action. A government actor can’t refuse to put someone on the ballot, refuse to seat someone in Congress, refuse to administer an oath of office, refuse to hire for a government position, etc., because of the candidate’s religion. There is nothing in the Constitution that prohibits an individual voter from voting for or against someone based on that person’s religion. |
I never thought I’d live to see it – Bob Jones III (yes, that Bob Jones) has endorsed Romney for President. |
Dan – And Clinton did not inhale. |
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Dan is really right to raise an objection here. When Lois implies that Barack Obama was Muslim, she, intentionally or not, raises doubts in voters’ minds about whether he’s telling the truth now. It’s an unfair thing to do. I don’t think that Lois did it on purpose to smear Obama– she’s just repeating what she’s heard right wing commentators say. But I hope that voters in general are smarter than that this election. |
I agree with both Paula and Dan, but this is how the game is currently played, and it is happening on both sides. |
Also, it was Hillary Clinton that brought this up. The talk shows were just talking about, repeating and running with what the Clinton camp was started. |
Austin,
Nice try. But it was NOT Hillary Clinton’s camp that started this. This was started by Insight Magazine, owned and operated by Sun Myung Moon. The same guy that owns the Washington Times. FoxNews of course picked up on it without actually checking sources. Media Matters has a great write up about it.
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So, you don’t believe Insight Magazine, but you want me to believe Media Matters? |
Um, yeah, any day of the week. Insight Magazine has no credibility in the matter. They started a rumor, in this particular case, attempting to tie it to the Clinton campaign, about the Obama campaign. This rumor was supposed to spread and have the two sides attack each other. It is a particularly heinous rumor as it has no basis in fact. A simple check of the school in question (which we can do since it is in Indonesia and we have good relations with Indonesia) found that it was a state school that taught the state religion (Islam), as required by Indonesian law (similar to many schools in Europe teaching Christianity as required by state law—something for which I’ve never heard a complaint from the Christian Right). Now, if this was indeed started by the Clinton campaign, why would the Clinton campaign leak this out to Insight Magazine, of all sources? If the Clinton campaign was attempting to smear Obama, wouldn’t it have worked better to have released it to a LEFT-WING publication of some sort? But see, it never would have gotten off the ground in a left-wing publication because they would have immediately fact-checked the accusation and found it completely baseless and never published the dirty and false gossip. This is something only right-wingers do. Then notice that NO left-wing publication took up the gossip and spread it further. What they did, in fact, was check the sources and verify the claim. Immediately it was discovered to be fake. Now, what did right-wing sources, like FoxNews do? They simply ran with it, irrespective of how much of a lie it was. Because they didn’t necessarily care how accurate it was. They wanted to obfuscate and confuse instead. Sow the seeds of doubt. It is nowadays called “Swiftboating.” A very vile and nasty practice. Media Matters quotes their sources. Media Matters may have a bias. That’s perfectly fine. That’s not what shoots their credibility. They are quite credible. What will shoot your credibility is starting a false story based on invisible anonymous sources that never existed in the first place! There are reputable right-wing publications out there, but they are dwindling in numbers. The more right-wingers continue down this path of fakery, obfuscation, and purposeful distortion, the more unhinged and whacked they become. This is not the direction wise and intelligent people should ever consider going. Com’on dude, you can tell them by their fruit! |
“you obviously don’t live in Davis County Utah.” You’re right, I don’t. (I think there’s a line in here about lucky stars and thanking them.) Is that the answer, then? Is this once again cheifly a Utah problem, like so many others in the church? |
Dan – Sorry, but Media Matters is no more credible than any other group with an extreme bias. MM could not even honestly cover a story about Rush Limbaugh, who, along with Hannity, Franken and Moore, is as dishonest with his commentary as they come. Why is there any reason to dishonestly cover Rush? That is like writing an article about Freddy Krueger and embellishing. The truth about Rush is more than enough to show him in a bad light. |
No, Dan, I am caught on, you are not caught on. You are wrong, I am right. Right, right, right, I tell you. I am the right person. He did, too, attend a madressa. His dad and stepfather are muslims. Frankly, I believe his claim that he’s a Christian now, but he did in fact attend a muslim school. The thing is, Dan, Democrats are just as capable of mud slinging as Republicans. Why can’t you admit that? I’m coming to your house to slap you around before you take me to dinner at a nice expensive restaurant. I bet you 10 million dollars if Obama was Republican, you’d be calling him a Muslim all over the news. DAN: MY FRIEND DOESN’T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT OBAMA’S RELIGION. SHE WANTS PEOPLE WHO QUESTION ROMNEY’S RELIGION TO SHUT UP AND CITES OBAMA’S RELIGION AS EXAMPLE. SHE COULD JUST AS EASILY HAVE SAID “WHY DON’T PEOPLE QUESTION HILARY’S RELIGION” I am yelling at you. #24 Jay, you are right on and boy, when somebody says that to me, I rip their head off. Just like I’m on my way back east in a half hour to rip Dan’s off. At least he hasn’t posted the internet yet. You know I love you Dan, but you are just so nutso about Democrats you have lost all uh, I can’t think of the word. |
I just can’t get myself to support Romney. There are a lot of little things, but the biggest reason I can’t support him is his lack of military experience. I also don’t like it that he has 5 boys and not one has any military service. So basically, you’re telling lots and lots of Americans that they or their families shouldn’t aspire to presidential politics. Good to know. |
#34 Mac: |
Austin,
Actually they did. They properly quoted exactly what Rush Limbaugh said. They, MM, got flack for quoting Limbaugh correctly. And when Limbaugh attempted to revise history (by going back and editing the transcript) MM caught him at it. Don’t worry, MM doesn’t need to embellish anything Rush says, and they never do. They stick to exactly what he says. |
Dan – You have got to be joking. If you listen to what Rush said, you know full well what he meant when he used the term ‘phony soldier’. I cannot stand Rush (he is a sack of crap), but anyone that hears what he said knows what he meant. MM is purposely mis construing his statements. |
anne,
Please, oh please do your research first before you listen to Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh, or Fox News. Read this first:
I can site you the CNN source that actually went to the school itself in Jakarta and interviewed the teacher who knew Obama as a child. You can see for yourself the fakery going on by those on the right.
Sure, they are just as CAPABLE. Anyone is capable of being a murderer, too, but that doesn’t mean that they are. If you quack like a duck, chances are, you are a duck.
I’d do it for $100 million. ;)
You know what I’m nutso about? The facts. I don’t care if you don’t like Obama. I don’t care if you don’t like Hillary. But if you are going to attack them, you better damn well have the facts behind you, my dear. |
Austin,
How can MM possibly be misconstruing Rush’s words when they quote him EXACTLY? Here is the call in full, as quoted by Media Matters:
Hmmm, who could Rush POSSIBLY be talking about? Who would be the phony soldier in this case? Well, apparently according to Rush and this caller, the “real” soldier is the one that is “proud to serve” who “wants to be over in Iraq,” who “understands their sacrifice” who is “willing to sacrifice for their country.” So who is the “phony soldier” then? Caller 2 said: “They like to pull these soldiers that come up out of the blue and talk to the media.” Rush then called THAT soldier “the phony soldier.” So in Rush’s mind, the “phony soldier” is the one that “comes up out of the blue and talks to the media.” Or in other words, the soldiers these guys can’t stand, the ones that say we SHOULD pull out of Iraq, etc. Media Matters has NOT taken Rush out of context. They quoted him exactly. Rush can’t stand getting a taste of his own medicine (a trait I’ve noticed among many conservatives). |
Dan – he is specifically referring to a morning update regarding Jesse Macbeth, since there was story regarding him that day. if you look at the entire transcript, instead of just the portion that Media Matters shows, you will see that. |
Austin, I only quoted part of the transcript. Media Matters actually has the entire transcript posted on the link I provided. You can see for yourself. |
oh and if you are talking about that “morning update”, well according to the ACTUAL TRANSCRIPT, the “morning update” didn’t happen until well over a MINUTE after Rush Limbaugh said “phony soldiers.” Sorry, Limbaugh was NOT talking about Jesse Macbeth. |
Dan – Rush was on the phone with a caller when the term phony soldier was used. Once the caller was off the phone, it took Rush about a minute to find the morning update. When he read the update, he said that this is the type of phony soldier we are talking about. So, yes, he was talking about that type of phony soldier. |
Bookslinger- Mormons are not fanning the fire of contention with Baptists. I don’t know where you live, but not a year goes by where my kids have been verbally accosted by Baptists, at school. As a school board member, I participated in an employment hearing where evidence was presented against a Baptist kindergarten teacher who repeatedly denegrated her kindergarten student’s Mormon religion. The non-Mormon school board cancelled her teaching contract. I could go on and on. Just because you haven’t experienced it don’t pass it off. This hostility against Mormons has been going on for a long time—Mormons have forums now like this to talk about it. Marcia |
Austin, I don’t know why you are defending the man, but clearly you would rather defend the likes of Rush Limbaugh than agree that a left-wing publication has more credibility than one like Insight Magazine that quotes fake anonymous sources in a smear campaign. If that’s what you want then fine. Personally, I have much higher standards for facts. |
Dan – That is exactly what I am not doing. I can not stand Rush. There are plenty of real things to dislike about him, but this story by MM is a flat out mis representation of the facts. Period. Anyone that reads the transcript or listens to a recording knows what Rush meant. Either MM knows what he meant, and published the article knowing it is false, or they actually believe what they are printing (in face of the evidence to the contrary), showing bias on par with Rush’s. Either way, imo, MM cannot be trusted any more than Rush, Hannity, Moore, Franken, Insight, Kos, LGF, or Huffington. |
Romney has now obtained the public endorsement of Bob Jones III, chancellor of Bob Jones University—a school which has in the past specifically condemned Mormonism on its own website. Jones says that “As a Christian [he is]completely opposed to the doctrines of Mormonism,” but he believes Romney “can best represent conservative American beliefs.” Endorsements from bigots like Jones should be enough to dissuade rational people from voting for Romney. |
Nick – Hell has officially frozen over. |
Like it or not Nick, this endorsement will have a positive effect on Romney’s numbers in South Carolina and perhaps in the Florida pan handle as well. |
Hey, Dan may hit 600 posts on this site today. If that’s not historical, I don’t know what is. |
Dan, if I don’t like Romney, had I damn well better have my facts? Not on your side of the street. You are so one-minded. Single I mean. Why don’t you go on and post the other half of the internet? |
#59: Note that I said “rational” people. |
I can only assume you are joking. |
anne,
If you throw a charge at him, yes. |
Marcia (#54), I see Mormons fanning the flames of hostility with Baptists and Evangelicals right on the LDS blogs themselves. I’m not saying hostility on the part of some evangelicals’ towards us doesn’t exist. I’m saying it’s not as widespread or universal as some LDS bloggers and commenters indicate in the many unqualified and unrestricted posts and comments that I’ve seen. Mormons get huffy when we are painted with a broad brush when a few Mormons misbehave. Let’s not commit the same sins that we denounce in others. Kids or teachers making fun of other students’ religion happens all the time. It happened to me when I was a kid because I said we were Jewish. (My dad was an inactive Jew, mom was inactive Presbyterian.) Then the teacher who was a playground monitor that day told the other kids (the ones who were mocking me) something like “He can’t help being Jewish.” I had to laugh and shake my head. Then when I became a “Jesus freak” in high school in the 70′s, the other kids made fun of me again. And then I caught holy heck from my Jewish dad. Then in my early 20′s I joined the true church, and the Presbyterians on my mom’s side of the family were “concerned.” And one great- aunt openly mocked me and LDS beliefs and started quoting a lot of incorrect things put out by the antis. By that time I was used to it. As Brigham Young said, the only direction you can kick this church is upstairs. False accusations merely give us opportunities to respond rationally with our side of the story. As a full time missionary 23 years ago, my companion and I were once questioned by a lady on the sidewalk why the local Catholic priest was preaching against us and threatening to excommunicate anyone who invited us into their home. Then in a very loud voice that the neighbors could hear, she invited us in to her home to give our side of things. Annegb: See above. Yes, Helen is one of the few rabid antis out there. But fortunately she’s in the minority. And, I’ll take as many Baptists, evangelicals, and pentecostals praying for my soul as possible. I need all the help I can get. |
#63: Not in the slightest. |
Bookslinger- It builds character to stand up hostility for what one beleives. The Saints have been trying to turn the other cheek or kill their uninformed religious hostiles with kindness. Make no mistake that mean-spirited anti-Mormon hit sermons are preached over Evangelical and mega-churches in the West on a large scale. Let the ministers employ free speech. Concern arises however, when that rhetoric takes on a “hate-speech” type dimension and I think it must be checked. I know their are many wonderful Baptists/Evangelicals who do not respond to the cult doctrines they hear at church. |
Sorry, Marcia, but the Danites never initiated women into their ranks. |
Nick – So, no rational person would vote for Romney? Do you really mean that? |
Austin, Mitt Romney blurts out that we should “double Guantanamo.” He hires General James “Spider” Marks as his national security adviser, the man who said, “I’d stick a knife in someone’s thigh in a heartbeat.” One wonders where else he would stick that knife if he thought longer than a heartbeat. Sorry, but when you place all the points on the table, you are not rational if you vote for Mitt Romney. |
I guess it depends by what you mean by “hate speech” and what you mean by “checked.” As it relates to crimes of speech, we used to be content with laws against sedition, conspiracy (to commit crimes), incitement to riot, “fighting words”, falsely yelling “fire” in a crowded theater, etc. I am strongly against laws that attempt to control “hate speech” (or define “hate crimes”) because it is so subjective. One man’s blunt opinion is another man’s hate speech. I am against the idea of protected minorities. I am against legislating against hate-crimes. If someone does me physical harm, the only question of motivation that matters is whether or not the perpetrator really intended it, and perhaps whether there were justifications or mitigating circumstances. For instance, someone who assaults and injures someone out of racial prejudice is in the same boat as the mugger who assaults and injures someone just to rob them. I don’t see a difference between someone who would injure me to get my wallet and someone who would injure me because I’m a Jewish-Jesusfreak-Mormon. If we want to keep the right to repeat what Joseph Smith claimed the Lord told him (“… their creeds were an abomination…”, etc.) then we have to allow our detractors the right to say “Mormons are poopy-heads” or whatever. If we want to keep the right to say DKL is a consumate ass, then we have to respect the right of other religions to say we are asses. I say let individual instances of school-yard bullying, and classroom injustice be handled at the local level in the school or at the school-board. Thanks for reminding me that your observations of anti-Mormorn behavior and rhetoric are in the West. I just don’t see or hear about much of it here in the Midwest. Those who stopped talking to Annegb when they find out she’s Mormon, well that’s their loss. Back in grade school, my friends went back to being friends with me the next day. I just think it’s wrong to demand that others say nice things about us or that they refrain from saying bad things. In cases where they are factually incorrect, let’s just be polite and assert our right of freedom-of-speech to have our side heard. I think that’s the most we should hope for, or demand. |
“…and assert our right of freedom-of-speech to have our side heard.” Let me rephrase that: to have our side published or put-forth. We have a right to speak, as does everyone. But no one has a right to force others to listen. |
Nick – I guess liberals really do think they are smarter than everyone else. It is the #1 reason I no longer call myself a Democrat. |
That’s because we are. ;) |
Hi all, As a LDS member, I’d like to reccommend Ron Paul instead of Mitt Romney, because his actions and beliefs are truer to the gospel, believe it or not. Ron Paul wouldn’t hire a security adviser with a knife/thigh fetish, he wants us out of Iraq, and he, unlike Romney, repudiates torture and wouldn’t ‘double Guantanimo’. If you love the constitutional foundation our fine land was founded on, please take note of the following facts about Ron Paul. As an OB/GYN, he delivered 4,000 babies. Since then he’s served 10 terms in congress, representing Texas. In that time, he has: - Never voted to raise taxes - Voted against the Patriot Act - Does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program Ron Paul is principled, honest and could really use your vote. Right now his problem is merely name recognition. Once people learn more about his positions, they understand that he’s the only candidate who bases them on constitutional limitations and a deep love of liberty. Regardless of first impressions, please listen to his words and find out what he stands for. The consitution isn’t hanging by a thread yet, but with a weak congress and ever-expanding executive power, we’re getting there fast. And unlike Romney, Ron Paul will do everything in his power to restore the constitutional system of checks and balances so that our nation will be strong again. thank you for your consideration. |
Stephen Bainbridge asks if Romney should have rebuked Bob Jones III’s endorsement. After all, Bob Jones III thinks Romney’s religion is a cult, and not Christian. What does it say about Romney getting the endorsement of a racist institution like Bob Jones University? |
butcher,
And exactly how will he do that? Who in Congress will listen to him? Is he going to force Republicans and Democrats in Congress to heed his will? Ron Paul will never be president. And if he will, he will never yield the kind of power necessary to change things around because he doesn’t have a party behind him. You have to have people willingly backing you in order to change things. Ron Paul does not have that. |
Ron Paul? Puh-leeeze. While libertarian candidates can be appealing in their own quirky way, surrounding yourself with supporters who carry signs that say “9-11 was an inside job” and “George Bush is trying to form a North American Union” is not the way to win a general election. Harass me all you want, but a vote for Ron Paul is a wasted vote, he will NEVER be nominated, and he will NEVER be elected. |
As an OB/GYN, he delivered 4,000 babies. Since then he’s served 10 terms in congress, representing Texas. In that time, he has: If that’s not prolife credentials, I don’t know what is. |
Ron Paul has NO CHANCE at getting the nomination. A vote for RP is like playing roulette and putting all your money on 37. |
Is Mitt Romney the Ivan Drago of this campaign? |
Dan – So you’re saying that a party cannot be led by their leader? That the party isn’t persuaded by the president? I disagree. If Ron Paul is elected, he will have the party’s attention. Jota G – Your straw man argument is weak. Ron Paul doesn’t surround himself with ’911 was an inside job’ signs, so you’re making a false association. Austin – No chance? Consider: Ron Paul currently has more cash on hand than any other Republican except Romney and Rudy. (And $8M of Romney’s big number came from his own wallet.) Ron Paul has won 16 straw polls in key states. And Ron Paul has 35,000 individual donors, far exceeding any other Republican. The plain fact is that Ron Paul is not an ‘establishment’ candidate. His positions, if acted upon, would benefit individual Americans at the expense of large corporations and big government. For that reason, the corporate media have done all they could to marginalize him. But even the media is starting to come around. Believe the numbers. 35,000 individual donors is an impressive number. His support is deep, and widening as more people Google Ron Paul. If you desire a President that will consult the Constitution as guidance for his actions, please vote Ron Paul! |
butcher,
Not at all. But you are assuming that Ron Paul will actually LEAD the Republican party. I highly doubt that. But in any case, I want Democrats to win. So please, get as many people to vote for Ron Paul. That will most definitely ensure a Democrat will run the White House in 2009. :) |
Dan – To you, I say: “Go Kucinich!” Better he than Hillary. (I do not want 30 years of Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton.) |
The question was raised about Barack Obama’s Muslim heritage. It is the parents right to school their children. He did go to a Muslim school where he was taught to be Muslim by his parents wishes (If they didn’t want him going they would have withdrew him). By default, either by his will or not, he was raised Muslim. Just as we as Mormons raise our Children Mormon even though they are not yet old enough to become members. The reasoning is clear. His parents (step or other wise) raised him Muslim and he personally converted to Christianity. In comparison I was raised with no religion (most of my youth) and am now I am Mormon. Can I deny my upbringing? To deny your upbringing is to deny yourself. And if you deny yourself you run the risk of not living up to their commitments and would we really want that person leading your country? |
Jamie,
Where does any account say that he was taught to be Muslim? It was a PUBLIC school, not a religious school. |
Butcher (82) I was at the Texas State Republican Convention where he was often surrounded by such signs. He wasn’t doing anything to shoo them away. |
Jota G – Pics or it didn’t happen! (ha ha) Seriously though, I admit that his campaign does attract a greater-than-usual share of what I’ll graciously describe as “free thinkers”. But while you can judge the guy by the company he keeps, it’s wise to remember that adage about glass houses, etc. Romney has his Bob Jones University endorsement, Rudy has friends with mob ties like Bernie Kerik, and Obama has parents who enrolled him in a Muslim school (the shock! the horror!) Every candidate hopes to attract the widest possible audience of supporters, and inevitably that will include supporters with belief systems that diverge sharply from his own on certain issues. But the lesson here is to ignore the tabloid stuff. Judge the candidates based on their record, on their stated positions, and on their belief systems, as far as you can credibly perceive them. (Dubya fooled me in ’99/2000 with his ‘compassionate conservatism’.) To all: if you have any questions, Google Ron Paul or visit his website, RonPaul2008.com to find out what he believes. I bet you’ll be impressed! //as an aside, this reminds me very much of a forum thread where I defended Mormonism by saying ‘don’t judge the church by anti-LDS literature, the statements of the polygamous groups or by the actions of high-profile members like Orrin Hatch, judge it by the Articles of Faith, which you can read on the web!” It worked. |
Dan, Was it not a Government run school? And was Islam not the Government Religion? I know the US Government touts Church State separation be even we still to this day say ‘. . . one nation under God, indivisible . . .’ in our public schools (not all schools mind you). And in Utah (and other Mormon areas) Mormon Seminary shows up as a grade of your PUBLIC School report card. Well maybe they didn’t teach Barack Obama Islam but we can all agree that a Government Supporting a Particular Religion would Reenforcement their religions ideas in their own Public Schools. This we can all agree upon at the least. At the most Mr. Obama was taught to be Muslim in public school . . . One Nation Under Allah, indivisible . . . if you will. |
Jamie — Can you please clarify your argument when you said this? I don’t think I understand what you’re trying to say here: “To deny your upbringing is to deny yourself. And if you deny yourself you run the risk of not living up to their commitments and would we really want that person leading your country?” |
“Judge the candidates based on their record, on their stated positions, and on their belief systems.” Ron Paul: Wants us to withdraw from NATO. Would legalize casual drug use. Wants to abolish the Federal Reserve Bank. Wants to unilaterally abolish the Department of Homeland Security, Department of Energy, and FEMA. Wants to grant letters of marque and reprisal to authorize private, government-sanctioned armies to go after terrorists. Wants to withdraw from NAFTA and the WTO. Was the 1988 LIBERTARIAN PARTY candidate for President. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Ron Paul will NEVER, EVER become the Republican candidate for President and he will NEVER, EVER become President of the United States. A vote for Ron Paul in a presidential race is a vote for whomever else is on the ticket. |
90. butcher For example I was raised with no religion taught at home. When I was introduced to religion I was open for it. I had no bias for or against. Some might say it must have been horrible to be a child and not know if there is a God or Hell or such concepts. But I say being raised the way I was left me open to teachings such as Mormonism (among other subjects). I am who I am and part of that began with my upbringing. If I lie about my upbringing and say it was horrible not having religion I deny myself as a person. My integrity is shot since being a well adjusted person that I am (he he he) is a byproduct of my upgringing. Why would anyone want to have a person with compromised integrity run our nation? I don’t. |
Jamie – How would you define integrity? I guess that’s where you’re losing me, because as I understand it, a person with integrity is someone who acts consistently with their beliefs. (e.g. they practice what they preach.) Obama seems to be acting consistently with his beliefs. So how is Obama’s integrity shot if his actions as an adult are consistent with the beliefs he holds as an adult? As an LDS convert myself, I like to think that I still have integrity when I decline alcohol at parties, even though that’s inconsistent with the (now outdated) beliefs I held in my (pre-LDS) teenage years. Are you saying that someone cannot learn from past mistakes or change their value system as they grow up, without also losing their integrity? Because that sounds like a silly argument. And I doubt you mean to sound silly, so I wonder if you’re using the word ‘integrity’ in some way I don’t understand. |
Jota G – Gosh, he sounds really bad when you put it that way. Let’s examine your claims: - Wants us to withdraw from NATO. Well, that makes sense to me. NATO was formed to defend against the Soviet Bloc. News flash: we won the cold war. That means we have no Soviet Bloc to defend against, and that means we can stand down. Doing so and removing our nukes from Europe will result in a finanacial savings of (at least) tens of Billions of dollars annually. From what I hear, this country could use the money. - Would legalize casual drug use. First, can you please provide a reference for this remark? Because they way this claim is worded can change its meaning dramatically. For example, medical marijuana has serious medicinal benefits for MS & Cancer patients, so it should be legal by perscription. Morphine is, despite the fact that it’s chemically similar to heroin. Secondly, casual drug use is legal today, it’s just allowed in liquid and perscription form. From Viagra to Vodka, our country uses mind-and-body-altering substances daily. Do you really think these things have no affect? The most addicting substance is nicotine, and the Federal government hands out subsidies today to tobacco farmers! I hate drug use when it affects me and mine, and I just moved apartments because my (former) next door neighbors were heavy pot smokers. So I want no part of it; but realistically my old neighbors should not be thrown in jail. We need a better solution to the ‘casual drug use’ problem, but I just don’t know the answer. Prohibition isn’t working, so someone needs to think out of the box here. If you can’t, don’t criticize others for trying to find a better way. - Wants to abolish the Federal Reserve Bank. Do you know what M3 is? Were you aware that the Fed stopped publishing M3 a few years back? Bonus points if you know WHY they did. A gallon of milk costs almost twice as much today as it did last year. The government spreads happy talk about the low rise of ‘core inflation’, but that figure excludes the effects of price increases on food & energy. It will get worse next year as the historically weak dollar causes imported goods prices to rise. The massive inflationary cycle we are entering is caused by the fact that, since the 1970′s, our currency has not been backed by gold. The dollar is not backed by anything, so it’s value is determined by the whims of the world’s bankers. Ron Paul wants to change that. And changing that will mean fighting the Fed, who have been printing money night and day. If you vote Ron Paul, you’re voting for a gold-backed currency. - Wants to unilaterally abolish the Department of Homeland Security, Department of Energy, and FEMA. The Department of Homeland Security is a Billion dollar boondoggle that we didn’t need when we were facing the Soviets, who had been pointing thousands of megatons of nuclear weapons at us. We didn’t need it then, and we don’t need it now. If what you say is true about DOE and FEMA, then I disagree with him on those points. But I don’t need to agree with him on everything. - Wants to grant letters of marque and reprisal to authorize private, government-sanctioned armies to go after terrorists. Please cite your reference for this. It is an inflammatory claim and I haven’t heard it elsewhere, so I’d like to examine it further before responding. - Wants to withdraw from NAFTA and the WTO. I’m not educated enough to compose a well-formed argument on the pros or cons of doing that. I understand Was the 1988 LIBERTARIAN PARTY candidate for President. Yes, that was true… way back in the ’80′s. Heck, in the ’80′s, Dubya was an alcaholic (i.e. ‘casual drug user’) with a couple failed businesses under his belt. That didn’t disqualify him from the presidency, did it? |
Jamie,
So would all Jews taught at Christian schools no longer be Jews? Heck, let’s take your logic even further. Would all students who go to secular public schools therefore be considered atheists because the school they go to do not teach them religion? Just because you go to a state run school that teaches about Islam does not make you a Muslim. Just because you go to a Christian school does not make you a Christian (you should know this from BYU, where a few Muslims come to the school). You guys gotta stop being sooooo afraid of Islam. |
You mean, Ron Paul wants to create state-sponsored terrorists? I mean, com’on. This is how we describe Al-Qaeda! A non-state actor, not bound to any laws, because they don’t belong to any state. They won’t have any uniform, because they don’t belong to any state. Much like Blackwater, if you think about it. |
Ummm….he says in his own book that he went to a Muslim school for two years, so public or not, that is what he considered it to be. No that doesn’t make him a Muslim, but the reason you are hearing this rumor about him attending a “muslim school” is because that is exactly what HE called it. |
95. Dan Being Jewish is more of a religion and a culture as is Mormonism. Being in a Christian school does give you exposure to Christianity as would an Islamic School. Public schools in this country are prohibited from teaching religion. So teaching there is a God or teaching there is not a God in our schools is a non-issue. Other Countries do not have this barrier of law. As to the issue of Islam bashing. Not once did I speak bad about Islam. I was the first one (at least in my household) to congratulate Congressman Keith Ellison for being sworn into office using Tomas Jefferson’s Qur’an. |
Thinking about the whole ‘Tomas Jefferson’s Qur’an’ thing. That brings me to if Mit became president would he be sworn in using the Joseph Smith’s Book of Mormon or Parley P. Pratt’s Book of Commandments? I bet it’s Parley’s Book of Commandments. It’s his 2nd Great Grandfather For Pete’s Sake. |
Butcher – To answer your questions. Yes, I know what M3 is. M3 is the broadest measure (under the American measurement model – the British model is a little different) of the supply of money. As compared to M2, M3 also includes eurodollar deposits, repurchase agreements and large denomination certificates of deposit. (I was an economist before I went to law school). The Fed stopped measuring M3 (last year) becuase it doesn’t add much useful information, as compared to M2. Why spend the money to gather the information if its not useful? What surprises me is the inconsistency in Paul’s position on this issue. On the one hand he wants to abolish the Fed, on the other he introduced a bill in Congress to force the Fed to continue to gather data on M3, a basically useless statistic. On the gold standard – While agree with the Austrian School and some supply siders that there are benefits to a gold standard, there are also significant disadvantages as well, such as a shortage of money in times of crisis. It is generally accepted among economic historians that the great depression was exacerbated by the gold standard – people couldn’t get credit to buy stuff (like houses, employee salaries, etc.) because the banks didn’t have any money to lend, because there could only be as much money as there was gold, which is a finite resource (I acknowledge that this is a major over-simplification – I need to get back to work). Ron Paul introduced the the “Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001″ in the US House of Representatives. He characterized the 9-11 attacks as akin to piracy and so decided that the appropriate response would be to use letters of marque and reprisal (authorized under the Constitution but not used in the US since the civil war). A letter of marque and reprisal authorizes an agent of the government to seize and destroy assets or personnel of a state or entity which has committed acts in violation of the law of nations. It is essentially the creation of state-sanctioned private armies/navies. |
Jamie – As long as its not raining/snowing, I’m sure Mitt would use the Washington Inaugural Bible. |
Pie,
Okay, so I still don’t get what the big deal is. Obama never hid the fact that he went to an Indonesian state school that taught Islam, after all, it’s right there in his book. So…well…where’s the controversy? What’s the big deal? Why should it matter that he went to a public school that taught Islam? |
Something’s been bothering me for a while. If Romney were Presbyterian, does anyone doubt he would be farther ahead in the national polls than where he is and possibly the national front runner? I’m beginning to think that Mormons are to the Republican Party what African-Americans are to the Democratic Party. An unappreciated, minorty group who is counted on for their vote, who will probably never go anywhere else, but who are disparaged and disregarded on the party’s national stage because there is underlying bigotry within the majorities of their respective parties. Romney and Obama are much alike in this regard. Its possible that they are the best candidates for their respective parties, but they are both derided by the powers that be within their parties. Thoughts? |
I doubt it. I think being Mormon is the only interesting thing about him. I don’t think he’s the best candidate. I don’t think a “best” candidate exists. I think come election time, we’ll be voting between the lesser of two evils. |
“I think it’s news because there have been so many .. articles about polls that show a high percentage of Americans will refuse to vote for a Mormon candidate.”(from “I’m One Person Who Will Not Vote for a Mormon†By danithewMay. 30th, 2007) Yet a larger percentage would not vote for a three times married person (Giuliani @ 30%) , more reject a candidate over 72 (McCain @ 42; this before the immigration bill) while Romney’s mormon negatives are at 24%. 24% would still leave him room for a landslide of 50+ It may be late to comment on this thread but as things have turned out since then, maybe it deserves to be. Romney is doing very well and is in a position a take out the nomination, especially if Huckabee and Thompson split the extreme evangelical vote. Plus a few reverends are supporting Romney. All very fascinating for us who look at american politics from the outside. I was actually concerned at first at the possibility of a mormon US president -can you imagine the jokes ‘the president and the, ah, 3rd lady?’ ‘the new US marines: on bicycles!’ – but since then I’ve change my views. Romney does seem to have the goods, and the ability, even if he’s a bit stiff and nerdy. Maybe now that the beginnings are past and that mormon Romney has the best chance in years, and maybe best chance in the next 8 years if Hillary wins, average mormons might get behind his campaign and help out as much as possible. There are plenty of Baptists who will help Huckabee (as well as Chuck Norris!) So Romney needs as much help as possible, maybe 20,000 mormons to stop Chuck? (Also to tell Romney not to open more Guantanamos or invade Iran! my opinion) |
#44 yeah, basically |