Devyn,

This is one of my favorite posts in a long time. I rarely have spiritual experiences at Church; most of mine have occured outside of Church, and I love that you mentioned “on a mountain while hiking,” because that has been the context for me as well. I have wondered why, and I think a good, hard hike in the mountains can be a really humbling experience that opens you up to spiritual things.
I’m so glad you had this experience with Margaret and Darius’ movie, and I’m hoping your experience becomes a common one with that film.
I gava a talk in church on Sunday where I discussed the difference between spiritual experiences and emotional ones, and I talked about how I felt weird in the MTC because I wasn’t bawling all the time like a lot of guys I knew there. I though I must have been less spiritual than they were, but over time I realized that the MTC is a spiritual place, but also a place where emotions are really close to the surface for a lot of nervous, struggling young people. Spiritual experiences are so unpredictable.

The lack of information on the reasonings behind the Priesthood Ban was one major issue I faced before becoming a member. Brother Darius contacted me via email telling me:

Brother /Trwth/,

This is Brother Darius Gray, another Black member of the LDS Church, wishing you and yours well. Hope you are still planning on that temple sealing come September.

Best wishes,

Bro. Darius

Because of Three people who were not afraid to discuss this topic, I am now a member of the Church. And yes Mr. Gray I did take that trip to the Temple. I made it there with my wife, all three of my children, I even stood proxy for my Wive’s Father so she could be sealed to her parents.

Thank You Margaret Young, Darius Gray, and much respect & admiration to the work of John Dehlin.

Jamie Trwth

Spiritual experiences, I’ve learned, come in many different ways. One of the challenges of my life is found in having an abundance of spiritual experiences, like those found in the scriptures: dreams, visions, ministering of angels (so far unseen) and other manifestations of the Holy Ghost. The problem is that I am unable to talk to others about these things (my wife and a few close friends being exceptions. They believe me but can’t share in the same way.

Some kind of problem, but one that is troubling nonetheless. I’m sure there are many others who share my trouble, but I have yet to meet them. I suppose others have learned, as I have, to keep things to themselves because it is no fun to be under wondering gazes of church members and loved ones. In recent years, I have attempted to talk more about these things. Blogs like this afford opportunities.

Most all of my experiences have not occurred at church (with one noteable exception) but while in prayer or reading the scriptures. Then there are those experiences when I wake up in morning having received a dream from the Lord. On a few occasions my prayer for help dealing with a life issue have been answered as I wake up. It is like the room is filled with knowledge and I need to get a pen and paper and write my down my thoughts and feelings.

I’m sharing this with the hope to increase faith of those who read it as well as hoping to find someone who feels and experiences the way I do.

I have experienced many spiritual experiences at church particularly when singing the hymns. I have also had prophetic knowledge revealed to me in the temple, while vacuuming my living room, and during a bus trip accross town in Argentina. Most of the revelations so far have had to do with my children or my husband. There are dry spells to test my faith or because of my lack of it.

Thanks for your post and to those who have responded. The blog brought to mind these spiritual experiences which is very pleasant indeed. Marcia

For the record (seriously, since I don’t keep a journal):
Darius and I had talked about doing a fundraiser in Boston, but the idea hadn’t gone anywhere. We had friends out there, but no place to do the event. Then another friend (Stirling Adams) moved there and offered his home. I was told there was a Singles’ Conference Oct. 12-14, though of course I knew speakers would have been scheduled long before. Nonetheless, when I was leaving the Provo temple one Saturday, I had one of those impressions I generally fight off: “There will be a cancellation. You will be invited to speak at the conference, so you will be in Boston.” Meanwhile, Darius had been told there would be an NAACP meeting that same weekend, but no invitation had come.

Suddenly, it all came together. I got the e-mail explainiing that someone had cancelled and asking if I could accept the invitation to speak at the conference. Darius was asked to address the NAACP. But he had just done an exhausting trip to NY and, since he has cancer and NO energy, a trip to Boston didn’t seem like the wisest choice.

Darius made the call–after I had voiced serious concern: we’d go to Boston. Our flights were covered by the separate conferences we were attending, and I submitted my itinerary between various tasks–quickly realizing that I didn’t really need to be in Boston as long as I had scheduled myself; I could’ve returned home a day earlier. But of course, perhaps the most important meeting (not the fundraiser–sorry Devyn) was an impromptu one with some young African American Latter-day Saints, many of them new converts. It happened late on Sunday. So we were where we needed to be when we needed to be there.

I was greatly preoccupied with family events; Darius was so ill that he had nearly collapsed a couple of times. But all of that had to be swept aside so we could do what we were being asked to do. For me, it was miraculous to see Darius rise to the occasion. I doubt anyone at any of the events we did knew how ill he was (and I believe he was given some additional strength or he could not have done a fraction of what he did).

Part 2, however, is that though we had some marvelous experiences sharing our offerings with various groups, our own problems didn’t vanish just because we were doing good things. Once we were headed home, Darius was in great pain, and my mind returned to concerns over a family member. We had been renewed and magnified for the duration of the weekend, and perhaps were better able to face our challenges after such a spiritual baptism, but the cancer remained for Darius, and the things I had been concerned about at home were still a concern.

Spiritual experiences are touchstones, but they don’t automatically change us. We seek places where we can remember what God has already given us and try to be aware of new miracles which become new touchstones and light our path (backwards and forwards). But the path is still very thorny and difficult. We negotiate it through faith, hope, and often calling on our courage to simply take the next step.

Jared–I still have a letter written to me thirty years ago from the first love of my life: a beautiful Mexican boy I met when I lived at Benemerito (Mexico City). I have often thought that because my Spanish was so limited at the time, I was forced to use other ways of communication. (Don’t imagine anything unseemly, DKL.) Because I had been shielded by a facade of intellectualism (which I can still slip into, though I try not to), I hadn’t let myself be terribly vulnerable. But I couldn’t be an intellectual in Spanish.

Anyway, the letter he wrote me was a response to my announcement that I was engaged to a Gringo. He told me he already knew, because he had had a dream where he saw “un hombre luminoso” (a shining, luminous man) who had asked him to follow. He saw me with a Gringo (white guy), and saw that there was another woman for him, a “morenita” (brown-skinned). The dream went on for a bit, and he understood some things awaiting him in the future. He was in the hospital suffering from Tuberculosis when this happened, and told the man in the bed next to him about the dream. The man said, “I’ve had visions too. But don’t tell anyone about this. They’ll think you’re crazy. Keep very quiet about it.”

I’m certain there are men and women who feel somewhat burdened by this spiritual gift because cynicism is so easy. (And frankly, there are crazy people who have visions all the time, so some folks are wary.) But, as my long-lost love told me, “Now I know that the scriptures are true, the ones that say ‘your old men shall have visions and your young men shall have dreams.’

Because my mother was afraid that I would run off and marry this young man, she hid his mail from me, as best as I can gather, so I didn’t get it until I had been married for a year. I wrote back, but the letter was returned undeliverable. I wonder what has happened to him. Primitivo Santos Chavez. I have a fantasy that someday I’ll go through the Mexico City temple and hear his voice on the other side of the veil. I wonder if I’d even recognize it.

Jared,

For a little over a year I have been more open with my experiences. The response I have received is interesting—a spectrum—with BS on one end and adoration on the other. Both of these extremes cause me pain. My purpose in sharing my experiences is not to draw attention to myself.

I have seen how people respond to your experiences; the thing you have to realize is, what you write looks like you are boasting. When you approach the blogs with the tone of “I have had so many spiritual experiences, and therefore I have so much to teach you people,” that is a huge turn-off to the rest of us. You come across as someone who wants to talk a lot about himself and dispense spiritual prescriptions for other people, and that just doesn’t work here or on any of the other blogs. There simply isn’t much of a market for what you are selling.
In general, I think you would have a better reception by steering your comments towards the principles and ideas being discussed.

#13 Dan,

I understand your concern and I all can say is that my intent is different than your characterization. You see it from the BS side of the spectrum.

Devyn said: “I would love to hear about others spiritual lottery wins.” I honestly responded. I’m sorry that you think I’m attempting to sell something. Sharing isn’t selling.

Dan–unless someone here invites me to respond I won’t write again. I have no desire to cross swords with you on scared subjects.

I didn’t think you were boasting at all, Jared. It didn’t even cross my mind till Dan brought it up. Sorry, Dan, I don’t agree with you.

I wonder, Jared, are you surrounded by people who don’t share your interest or faith? I don’t mean non-LDS, I mean faith.

I find myself unable to talk about a lot of my interests with my family, so blogging is that outlet for me.

I’ve always wondered if people thought I was bragging when, I think it was on Times and Seasons, I said I could dimly understand Jesus’ pain in Gethsemane because sometimes when other people hurt, I hurt. Physically and emotionally. It’s miniscule compared to Gethsemane and I wasn’t bragging. But it probably sounded that way.

I’ve had spiritual experiences, but not for a long time, maybe a few. I’ve seen the hand of God in my life, but I lost trust in Him and got really mad and am barely getting that back.

But last Sunday, this woman I’ve visit taught, who has been through hell and part of it is hormonal and she sort of made a mess of herself and sobbed for days and got mad at everybody and overreacted to being released from a calling I would go jump off a cliff if I ever got called to–anyway, it was sort of public and drippy and stupid, like Ellen crying over the dog.

And I just kept loving her and so did others and last Sunday she got up and bore her testimony. I can’t recall her ever bearing her testimony and it wasn’t eloquent, she was crying so hard she could hardly talk, but it was totally sincere and I was just filled with love for her and thanked God for sticking in there with her.

And it was spiritual, not the usual crap.

Margaret, I really really want to buy that tape. I admire you for all you’ve accomplished and envy your energy. You have no clue how you’ve been blessed that way.

The precept that I’ve heard from church leaders, local and GAs, is that you shouldn’t share spiritual experiences unless prompted of the Spirit to do so.

I’ve started to talk less about spiritual promptings on my blog, and when I do mention them, I’m less descriptive and less analytical.

Annegb: I think childhood trauma can sometimes make people empathic to others. Some victims of child abuse or other severe trauma in childhood become permanently “broken” or perpetual victimes; some go on to be victimizers/abusers; and some become compulsive fixers or helpers in order that others don’t suffer as they did; and some have degrees or phases of all three.

I don’t think one necessarily needs to have been victimized or traumatized in order to understand the Atonement and the Lord’s suffering. But perhaps there are some of us who need that lesson. It brings up the question of why the innocent have to suffer so horribly. The closest answer I’ve found is that God has reasons to let bad things happen to innocent people, and there are more reasons than just agency.

Those reasons have to be learned on one’s own because it would be very crushing for an individual to be told that God wanted him or her to suffer, without having first learned and accepted those reasons.

I thought I posted a comment with links to a Mormon Testimonies site, and a Mormon Converts site. Did I have a senior moment and not post it, or was it deemed inappropriate? I think both of those sites have good accounts spritual experiences.

#10 annegb- thanks for sharing your feelings

#15 + 16 + 18 Dan- I consider your additional remarks an invitation to write again.

Dan-I started blogging at the first of Aug this year. I’ve blogged in 5 or so sites for a total of approximately 15 or so post. My purpose in visiting these sites, was and is, to learn about blogging. I posted comments about the “things of the spirit” in response to a post or a comment. I never asked to share my spiritual experiences. I did ask what is required to be able to post an article. That may be what you are referring to.

Do I have an agenda in mind? Yes, I would like to find a place where people appropriately discuss things of the spirit. I would like to learn and share with like minded members of the church. Isn’t that the purpose blogging? Why are you anxious to make it appear as though I am a blogging terrorist deserving of being tarred and feathered? Where is your spirit of inquiry and brotherly love?

Bookslinger-your point is well taken and the reason I came to the world of blogging is because of being prompted to do so.

So far I’ve found that LDS blogging is filled with a lot of great people. People with advanced degrees in all kinds of subjects However, the topics are often about finding fault with the church, and its policies. This is a surprise to me. And of course I’ve found that topics that have to do with the things of the spirit are off limits. So be it. I’m not trying to force my will on others. In fact, the opposite is what I’ve experienced; others are more than willing to force their wills on me.

I’m worried that this generation of church members may be fulfilling what Moroni warned about in his last writings. Out of all the messages Moroni might have left us on the last pages of the Book of Mormon he felt impressed to leave this one:

…if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. Moroni 10:24 – 25

If anyone is interested, I will leave my new blogging address if asked. I just set it up last week and will start blogging soon. It will be a lot different than you might expect from what you’ve seen here. I hope to provide resources for those who want to fulfill their baptismal covenant and receive the Holy Ghost as their companion.

Jared

Jared,
When you enter a comment, there is a field/edit box where you can put in a link to your blog/web site. You can put that in there on every comment you make.

Be sure to start the url with http://

And just once per blog that you visit, it’s usually okay to tack on a PS to your (on topic) comment, and in the PS announce that you just put up your own blog. Repeat: generally one “By the way, I’ve got a new blog” plug per visited blog. However, a comment containing _only_ the blog announcement may be tacky.

When you put the link in all your comments (in the appropriate edit field), if people like your comments, they’ll hover the cursor over your name to see if you have a blog, then follow the link, to see what else you have to say.

Another unwritten rule is: If you want to write a long dissertation on the subject matter that appears on someone else’s blog, then write your long dissertation as a post on your blog; then go to that other blog, enter a comment and a link to your dissertation at your blog. Such as:

“I wrote a bit on this topic on my blog at: http://jaredsblog-or-whatever.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-I-think.html

There are three blog lists that I know of to submit your new blog to:

http://www.ldsblogs.org/
http://www.mormon-blogs.com/
http://www.ldselect.org/

It’s also good to submit/list your blog at
these places:

http://www.truthlaidbear.com/
Which is a big time blog list service

And then the major search engines:
http://www.google.com/intl/en/submit_content.html
http://search.yahoo.com/info/submit.html

It’s usually a good idea to build up your own content on your blog before you ask other bloggers to link to you. That way they can get a feel for what your blog is about.

Good luck.

Bookslinger, your comment got stuck in spam; I just recovered it. Thanks for the heads up.

Coming back to the topic at hand…

I have rarely had a spiritual experience during the normal Church block. What I have found, however, is that many times Church can serve as a trigger or catalyst for an experience that will occur later. Someone might say something in church that leads me to a different thought while I’m studying the scripture, or off on my own hiking. Church meetings may remind me of something I should be doing better – like the sincerity of my prayers, or rendering service. These reminders then sometimes lead to spiritual experiences.

I have also had the experience of learning or hearing something in Church that gives me perspective of an experience I had in the past, but didn’t recognize at the time.

The general authorities, in their general conference talks, are usually very reserved in describing spriritual experiences, or promptings of the Spirit. President Monson is the only one that comes to mind who is blunt about describing promptings. And they all seem to couch their phrases

Bookslinger,

I think GA are more reserved about their experiences when there is a world wide audience as compared to other places like a stake conference, or a book. I read Elder Busche, “Yearning for the Living God”, last year. He shared many spiritual experiences that I don’t think he would have share anywhere else. I learned as much about Heavenly Father has I did about Elder Busche.

Jared

BTW You have a great website and a special way about you

Margaret:

Can I say that I absolutely love the way that you love Darius Gray. It’s so potent and wonderful. Darius is a hero of mine, and in my prayers as he struggles on.