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I’ll confess that points 1-7 make me tired. But I love your point 8. Although, I do prefer a talented organist/pianist to a CD. And you can find ways to shine light on obscurity without making people choke (it’s called, get your choir to sing them). But I agree with the general point. |
queuno, you have Iraq-discussion fatigue? How’d that happen!? Hahaha… |
I read the post title and just laughed. Asking critics of the war not to repeat these things, over and over, is not going to stop them from repeating these things, over and over. Point 8 was excellent! |
(3) I know; I’m trying to address both critics and cheerleaders. I can’t tell you how many times at Church people have found out I spent a year there, and they almost always say “It’s not really as bad as the liberal media say it is, right?” They’re always shocked to hear that I think it is really bad, and that the Bush administration is cowardly for declaring a “Global War On Terror” that will require no sacrifice on the part of Americans unless they are in the military. |
Nope. The ideal church arrangement is a 2 hour block of meetings. Turkey is attacking the Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq. With the US on their side. I see this as WWIII. And since Jesus is coming again in 2012, it’s probably going to get ugly in the next few years. (Whitley Streiber “2012″ Also the Mayan calendar). |
So the fundamental point you are trying to make is the people arguing on both sides are politically motivated partisans and grossly biased. OK. Your point 5 is not compelling. Of course critics cannot produce the product they criticize the government for failing to produce, it is a product that is impossible for anyone to produce. That only shows a flaw in the critics method of argumentation, not in the point itself. There is plenty of common-sense reason to believe Powell’s approach to executing the war would have been more successful (at least in the short term) than Rumsfeld’s. Powell’s approach might have forestalled the events dealt with in your point 2 until after we had largely pulled out. It might have reduced our casualties and increased the Iraqi mayhem, but that is sheer speculation. On point 8, what was the format? 1.5 hours of sacrament meeting, or 1 1 hour sacrament meeting and half hour sunday school? |
Another situation with no good options. I wish I could come down entirely one way or another on some of these things, but to do so requires ignoring very valid points of view on the other side, and at the end of the day, any policy besides isolationism requires a lot of guesswork and ambiguity. |
Ellsworth, I think you’re wrong about # 7. I’m not sure the media outlets are librul as much as they are lazy and stupid, but I don’t trust them. Lancet deserves all the scorn that can be shovelled its way, and many others do, too. Did you see this blog post by a reporter for the Sacramento Bee? He originally posted it to his own blog 48 hours ago but took it down, I hope out of embarrassment. I read every one of the 197 comments, and everybody else should, too, they’re terrific. (But don’t read them if you are offended by words like pissant and dumbass, or phrases like get the hell over yourself.) This is important, because this journalist put up the original post without realizing how offensive and out of touch he is. I just don’t trust him, or anybody else like him. |
Points 6 and 7 seem contradictory to me. |
Kurt (6),
This is true of some at the extremes; others are selective in their facts for other reasons. What I would like to see is more humility on both sides, more recognition of the gaping holes in all of our understanding. As far as Church in Iraq, we had 45 minutes of Sacrament (Do we honestly need more than that? Heavens.) and 45 minutes with the teachings of the prophets manuals we use in Priesthood and RS. It was lean and mean, no frills. I miss it. |
KyleM (9), Points 6 and 7 seem contradictory to me. Welcome to my world. |
Mark IV (8), That Knight Ridder guy deserves to have something happen to him that I don’t feel comfortable describing here, other than that it involves something he cares about and a pair of dull scissors. I’m with you- I can’t stand people like that. The most reliable read on the war is Michael Yon, hands down. There’s no whitewashing of the situation, and he has an amazing ability to see all the cultural and other issues that are so important in understanding how Iraq works. He has been criticized by conservatives from time to time for not portraying a rosy picture, and to my knowledge he has been ignored by the left, probably because there is nothing they can teach him about pretty much anything. Everyone should read Michael Yon. |
Dan, absolutely, Michael Yon is The Man. |
Where were you over there? My brother was in Ramadi his next to last deployment. |
I was in Baghdad from June 05 to July 06, back when Ramadi was the Wild West. Your bro is a freakin’ stud. |
Dan, I like some of your points, but the one about the 3-hour block is just much to take. Some people just can’t feel the spirit until they’ve exercised a profound amount of self-denial for at least 2.5 hours. Would you deny them their 30 minutes of comfort from the Holy Ghost? And everybody knows that western business dress is the divinely ordained mode of dress for worship for the latter days. God restored the gospel in the United States because of the prevalence of fine haberdasheries, not because it was the birthplace of the blue jean. But I’m curious about what your view of the Iraq War is. |
Dan – great points even if I don’t agree with all of them. Your last point is interesting. Who organized it? Is there a “branch president” equivalent? Were there a lot of members there? Thanks for your service. |
Don’t thank me for my service- I was a contractor! |
On other thing that I consider to be good news; is that the Orthodox Christians in Iraq (especially in the Kurdish region) are enjoying religious freedom in comparison to the years under Saddam. |
Dan, your work either directly or indirectly helped my brother do his job. That’s good enough to get a “Thank you” from me. |
Dan Ellsworth,
That is not entirely accurate. Most of those “hundreds of thousands” killed by Saddam Hussein occurred during the 1980s. In 2001-2003, Iraq was fairly stable and fairly calm.
Of course they let their blind hatred of Saddam override reality, but life is NOT better for them now than it was under Saddam. This is not to say that things should have gone back to how they were before, but a direct criticism at the Bush administration for being complete buttheads about reconstruction. They are awful at it.
The Bush administration calculated that they would be done by the end of the summer. (Does this sound familiar to any of you who have studied World War I?—Be home by Christmas honey!). They honestly felt that simply bombing a few key sites would dismantle the regime. They were correct, but they had nothing to replace it with, opening up a vacuum in which insurgents and anti-American Iraqis took over. It’s a shame really. Iraqis most certainly were happy with the removal of Saddam. And they really thought America could give them something better. But Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld—thorough detractors of nation building—were the worst possible people to have in power to run a nation building project.
But the Surge IS a failure, Dan, if you take what the intent of the surge was. Where is the political reconciliation? Was that not the whole purpose of the surge? Sunnis in Anbar did NOT go to the Americans because of the Surge. They decided solely on their own last September (FIVE months before the Surge began) that they had enough of the barbaric Al-Qaeda. If the Sunnis had no chosen to turn against Al-Qaeda, the Surge would have accomplished NOTHING at all in regards to security. As it is, the Surge has accomplished ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL in regards to political reconciliation, the whole purpose of the Surge as stated by President Bush in January 2007. |
Dan Ellsworth, #7,
According to war supporters, we should be invading Iran because they allegedly supply weaponry to Iraqi insurgents that kill our troops. So why should we not be supportive of Turkey going after Kurdish terrorists who kill their soldiers? Or are those Kurds even terrorists? I guess they’d be OUR terrorists then, wouldn’t they… |
Re point 1…”Of course innocent people are dying” (How incredibly insensitive!) ” … the decision maker understands that innocent people die in war no matter what. This is not something the Bush administration overlooked; they just understood that hundreds of thousands were already dying under the Hussein regime, and they figured that a change in regime would result in the building of a more peaceful society. ” ….Ah, say what?…nope. You went to war to chase WMD and some non-existant 9/11 conspiracy that Sadam was involved in, Remember? And “hundreds of thousands were already dying under” Sadam? That isn’t what expat Iraqis claim. It was nowhere near “hundreds of thousands”. (why not just say “millions”; that has more effect) Oh, and I heard today that the Bush-Cheney dynamic duo is lifting the rhetoric against Iran. Is War the only thing the republican party can do? But wait, I guess that Iran had something to do with 9/11 just like Sadam had……… sure…….!!! |
Dan (21), That is not entirely accurate. Most of those “hundreds of thousands†killed by Saddam Hussein occurred during the 1980s. In 2001-2003, Iraq was fairly stable and fairly calm. A couple of relatively calm years, in which the Husseins were torturing, raping and killing only thousands or tens of thousands? How does a one or two year relative drop in those numbers post-9/11 refute what I said? But the Surge IS a failure, Dan, if you take what the intent of the surge was. Where is the political reconciliation? Was that not the whole purpose of the surge? The Surge was simply designed to create the security environment wherein reconciliation can take place. whether or not that actually will take place is anyone’s guess, and we have very good reasons to be pessimistic. But as a counterinsurgency campaign? Wow. A huge success. I addressed the Al Qaeda factor in my comment #10; you make a very valid point there, that AQ has a huge inadvertent part in the banding together of the tribes, but part of the Surge’s strategy was also to reach out to a lot of these tribal and other leaders in more significant ways, and how much of that is responsible for these sea changes, I can’t say for sure. Carlos (23), |
“Lancet deserves all the scorn that can be shovelled its way, and many others do, too.” Mark IV, since you are so fond of quoting the work of musicians and stock market analysts as generating more “reliable” death figures than trained epidemiologists using accepted techniques, I can’t help wondering…when you need a tooth pulled, do you go see a hairstylist? If you need surgery, do you consult a chiropractor? I understand the shortcomings of the peer-review system of science, but the alternative is cold fusion. Things might take longer to become accepted medical practice with peer review (e.g., the notion that ulcers are due to bacteria rather than stress), but the public is also spared some questionable science. |
“The awful thing about a decision to go to war is, the decision maker understands that innocent people die in war no matter what. This is not something the Bush administration overlooked…” I don’t believe this for a minute. I think the Bush administration has a long track record of considering non-American lives to be less important than those of Republican Americans. It’s hard to believe that the neocon draft dodgers had a clue what they were getting into. |
Care to support that assertion somehow? |
Dan E, #24,
Forgive me, I didn’t intend my comments to come off so combative.
No, we’re talking more like since 1992 that Iraq has been relatively calm. I chose those few years before the war to show that there was no humanitarian disaster that required our attention. Plenty of poor innocent people get tortured, raped and killed by our allies that using that as an excuse to invade, or justification for the invasion of, Iraq is not valid and is hypocritical. Why are we bothered by a bad dictator mistreating his people when we stay silent when our allies are mistreating their people? This is something that people in other nations see very clearly, but we seem to lack the insight to see our own hypocrisy on this issue, most especially now that we torture ourselves, and our private armies in Iraq are killing innocent Iraqis with no regard for laws. Those murderers will never see justice because they are protected by the White House.
I cannot forgive their errors because they were not honest errors. As you said, they placed political operatives in charge rather than professionals who knew their work. They cherrypicked their intelligence and fit the intelligence around the policy. There is no excuse worthy of forgiveness in this matter.
This is exactly why I was against the surge from the beginning, because the premise on which it is based is false and flawed. There was no way that reduction of violence was going to somehow magically create the political reconciliation everyone is praying for.
This one aspect of the “Surge” did work and was a step in the right direction. This is what should have been done from the beginning. And I do really think it is too late for it to give us the result we originally desired: a democratic stable Iraq. That is a dream long vanished (never realized, and never to be realized because the plan never received the proper instruments to accomplish such a task). and in regards to my comment #22 about Turkey and the Kurdish terrorists, well, this was something we who were against this from the start warned about. War supporters treated this like a credit card whose bill didn’t need to start being paid for a few years; somewhere off in the future, we’ll take care of it when it comes—ironically much like we’re treating the payment of our adventure in Iraq—place it on a credit card for our children to pay. Let’s put this in a larger perspective. Who would we rather have as an ally? A Turkish nation that is strong, vibrant, a secular Muslim nation, a stable democracy, a healthy economy. Or a nation-less people who have never been able to govern themselves because they never have had the opportunity? Think of it this way. Who would you rather have as an enemy? A strong, vibrant, secular Muslim democracy, or a nation-less group? We didn’t have to be in this situation where we would have to make such a choice, but this administration put us here. And it is hypocritical of us to the extreme to tell Turkey to restrain itself when we are requesting bunker-busting MOPs to be used in the theatre (against Iran of course). How dare we tell Turkey it cannot go after terrorists who kill their soldiers, but we can unilaterally go after whoever we want? |
Mark IV, since you are so fond of quoting the work of musicians and stock market analysts as generating more “reliable†death figures than trained epidemiologists using accepted techniques, I can’t help wondering…when you need a tooth pulled, do you go see a hairstylist? If you need surgery, do you consult a chiropractor? Naismith, that is a fair point. I have no quarrel with trained epidemiologists and accepted techinques, but I do think that methods that accurately tell us how a disease spreads might not be suited to tallying up fatalities in a war zone. So the example you gave, about going to a chiropractor when you need a surgeon, applies to Lancet trying to use its expertise in a situation that doesn’t fit. As I have pointed out before, there are substantial internal contradictions in the data, and they don’t make sense to me. That might be because I am dumb, but I would at least like somebody to attempt to explain the contradictions and not just fall back on the authority of methodology. Whenever experts say to us proles “How dare you question us?!?!”, they deserve a healthy dose of skepticism and, yes, scorn. And the issue of peer review is troublesome, too. As far as I know, the only thing that has been reviewed is the methodology. If I and 20 other people are all studying the same phenomenon, but my results differ from everybody’s else’s by a factor of 10, doesn’t peer review obligate me to justify my results? As far as I know, Lancet’s answer has been that it is impossible for them to be wrong because their methodology is sound. They have made no attempt to account for the difference, so in my opinion, their answer is unsatisfactory. |
A related question is, if the measure of Bush’s or anyone else’s humanity is how much they value human life as measured in numbers of people, then doesn’t the decision to keep troops in theater to stave off a more intense civil war represent the most humanitarian position? If, as Naismith said, Bush doesn’t value other forms of life as much as American Republicans, his position should be to pull the troops immediately and allow Iraq’s full-blown civil war to unfold. |
Dan,
It would be only if we actually staved off the violence. But when we, ourselves, are killing thousands of Iraqis (48 just the other day), just how human are we? What kind of human launches a missile that kills children? furthermore, it is completely against the very counterinsurgency manual General Petraeus himself wrote to kill civilians! Successful counterinsurgencies require the occupying force to do all in its power to ensure civilians do NOT die. When that occupying force is using missiles to kill civilians, it completely fails to follow its own rules of combat. The United States military still has not learned the most important lesson in successful counterinsurgencies: you must be willing to sacrifice your men to save Iraqi men, women, and children. Their lives must be a higher priority than your own. To this point, we completely undermine our very own efforts to win the war, by attempting to find the one or two Americans gone missing. And then we wonder why we are still having to deal with the violence as we have. We prioritize our own lives over those of Iraqis. The more we continue doing that, the more we fail. |
“A related question is, if the measure of Bush’s or anyone else’s humanity is how much they value human life as measured in numbers of people, then doesn’t the decision to keep troops in theater to stave off a more intense civil war represent the most humanitarian position?” But why is it that the US only intervened in civil strife in an oil-rich country, when so many other conflicts around the globe have been largely ignored by USAmerica? If we’re going to truly be humanitarians, we ought to be consistent and concerned with protecting others, not strategic oil flow. |
“that is a contemptible sentiment and you should be ashamed.” Amen, Dan Ellsworth. The biggest problem with the current conflict is that no one seems to be able to see things except through the refracted lenses of their own partisan politics. |
Dan,
Were they innocent civilians, and if so, were they the target of the operation?
The same kind of humans that bombed European cities — killing a lot of children in the process — in World War II in an effort to fight an ideology that would destroy civilization as they knew it. In other words, it is a good and decent human that does this kind of thing with a heavy heart.
No, it is only against his counterinsurgency doctrine to target civilians. There is a huge difference.
Wrong again. Our occupying force is doing everything strategically and technically possible to avoid harm to civilians, and sometimes, despite their best efforts, they fail to avoid civilian casualties. And on a personal note, am I correct in assuming that every position you have in regards to the Bush administration is completely predictable? If yes, are you comfortable with that? |
[...] of this report surfaced in comments to Dan Ellsworth’s excellent post on the Iraq War here and here (by Mark IV and Naismith respectively). As usual, I agree with Mark IV: The report by The [...] |
Have we reached a point where Iraq is like abortion or gay marriage or any number of topics, where each side has staked out a foxhole and isn’t going to budge? I said somewhat facetiously that I was tired of the discussion points, only because I’ve heard them 1000 times in a bunch of different settings. I have close friends who have been to Iraq *and* friends who plot how to get us out tomorrow. I just don’t see anyone changing their mind. I think I’m not so bored by it all as I haven’t heard a unique argument in about 6 months, except to wait to see what Petraeus would say, and after that, we were back to familiar arguments. And the battle lines and sides are familiar. I saw them etched in the concrete over Clinton, abortion, gay marriage, and any number of topics. I wake up when I hear a politician give an original appraisal. I think I’d probably love to go over there and work for a year. I’ve got a bit of a suicide streak. I think it’d be great, but I doubt that any of my skills would be worthwhile. |
“Naismith, that is a fair point. I have no quarrel with trained epidemiologists and accepted techinques, but I do think that methods that accurately tell us how a disease spreads might not be suited to tallying up fatalities in a war zone.” The techniques used were designed to be used in situations with poor public health records, and had been used without controversy in other spots around the world, both in war (Congo, Kosovo) and natural disaster (Indonesia’s tsunami). “As I have pointed out before, there are substantial internal contradictions in the data, and they don’t make sense to me. That might be because I am dumb, but I would at least like somebody to attempt to explain the contradictions and not just fall back on the authority of methodology.” The authors of the 2006 study published in Lancet provided lots of background info in detailed appendices. I couldn’t follow all of it. I’m not a statistician, although I work with statisticians, and always appreciate those who can translate Greek into English. But I don’t have a problem admitting that I can’t always follow everything, and it doesn’t bother me to have people who know more than me on a topic. If I’m not sure, I get a second opinion, calling someone out of state who is very well qualified. But I would ask another sociologist or biostatistician, not a musician or stock analyst. “Whenever experts say to us proles “How dare you question us?!?!â€, they deserve a healthy dose of skepticism and, yes, scorn.” I don’t think that’s what they were saying. They made pages and pages available to those with the eyes to see. If I don’t understand enough statistics to follow what they were doing, it’s not THEIR fault. |
Dan E,
We’ll never know, because the military refuses to actually investigate. Doing so might lead to legal problems.
There is no comparison to WWII here Dan. We’re talking about searching for one man. Why would you call in an airstrike that could kill children just to capture or kill one man? There is no comparison to WWII because in WWII we were bombing and destroying cities like Dresden with the express purpose of beating Germany and Japan into submission. That was not the purpose of the airstrike in Sadr City. It was to kill one man.
Actually, no Dan. Hang on let me get that quote for you… Here it is from the Counterinsurgency Manual
Using an airstrike to get ONE GUY goes against these principles. They turn the population against you, every time.
Dan, it is a sick thing to do. You said so yourself earlier that we bombed Germany and Japan with heavy hearts. Using an airstrike that kills children to get one man is a SICK thing to do! And it is not worthy of what America used to stand for. When you see fathers and brothers and mothers and sisters crying their hearts out at their dead kin, you failed. It doesn’t matter if you killed the bad guy or not. You failed. Because the overall purpose is to keep the civilians on YOUR side. The more of them you kill, whether purposeful or not, the more you lose. That is why Iraq has not been at peace since 2003.
The Bush administration has not given me any reason to change my position vis a vis their crimes. |
oh and by the way, that airstrike that killed 48 people in Sadr City, including children, failed to get the target. Oh well, I guess. Sucks to be those Iraqis. |
Mark IV ” If I and 20 other people are all studying the same phenomenon, but my results differ from everybody’s else’s by a factor of 10, doesn’t peer review obligate me to justify my results?” It seems you haven’t heard of another scientific study performed by ORB recently which found numbers of casualties in Iraq similar to those of Just Foreign Policy’s Johns Hopkins study’s extrapolation. They found that 1.2 million excess violent deaths in Iraq since the invasion with a margin of error of 730,000 to 1,400,000. |
Dan Ellsworth(24) “Please go back to the echo chamber at Daily Kos”…. Daily what??? Never heard of it. Reading these comments it becomes more and more evident that some Americans are just living a dangerous fantasy, one that only gets more and more young US soldiers killed. And the Iran war is yet to start………….. Only truth you said here Dan Ellsworth, is in #34, calling the US military “Our occupying force”. Very true. |
Dan, do you think we’re going after one man in Iraq? Who? |
Dan E, In that particular case, we were indeed going after one individual man. And in regards to the war itself, yes indeed, we were going after one man. We named him long ago. It was always about him. You know his name. Saddam Hussein. |
We were after Saddam, but he wasn’t even close to being the only one we were after. |
Dan E, But those guys were not the reason we invaded Iraq. It was always about Saddam Hussein. In any case, it doesn’t matter. Our military will continue to not heed the lessons they were supposed to learn in Vietnam. They will continue shooting themselves in the foot. And our politicians will continue to place the bills for this war on credit cards for our children to pay. |
Dan (45) wrote: “But those guys were not the reason we invaded Iraq. It was always about Saddam Hussein” True, mostly. Back then it was about WMD’s and a fantasy terrorist link to Saddam. Now that the Bush-Cheney et.all secrete combination have realized their blunder they need to invent other reasons to justify this illegal war and occupation. (And to justify these enormous deficits that your children will have to cover) But what some ‘grown ups’ here don’t seem to realize is that America has taken an historical turn for the worse in Iraq. Never before has it engaged in ‘preventive’ war -internationally recognized as an illegal war. Every other conflict that the US has being involved in was in reaction to aggression, like WW2 or Afghanistan (protecting Bin-Laden); or on request from a nation for help, like Vietnam and Kuwait. Only Grenada came close, but even that could be justified in some ways. Now American has become something different. It us to be freedom protectors and freedom fighters to this ‘freedom rammed down your throats whether you want it or not’ thing in Iraq (and US Oil corporations will ‘rebuild’ your country thing!) And now comes Iran war………….. |
Dan E., I will continue to proclaim the truth of your #5 about Iraq, whether or not you want to hear it. Of the many failures of planning some were obvious from the start, others have become clear only as generals retire and begin to speak the truth. What little good planning there was often found itself capriciously dismissed by Paul Bremer, or some other ideological hack in the CPA, over there for his three months of excitement and resume building. |
I was thinking about #1 and the best argument to that is: “if we leave Iraq, millions of innocent people will die.” I think it’s prophetic, guys. We have until December 2012 (I read this book by Whitley Streiber, who I think was abducted by aliens), and Iraq is coming down, along with the rest of the world. Turkey is attacking Iraq as we speak. It’s coming, that big war. I tell you. |
anne,
And how do you feel being the instigator (well, not you personally, Anne)? And no, it is not prophetic, because it is not certain that millions of people would die if we leave. Seeing that we’re the instigators of much of the violence in Iraq, and also the greatest target, it seems to me that what makes more sense is that there will be a REDUCTION in violence when we leave. |
Well, I didn’t say I was thrilled about it, Dan. I don’t care if Bush going into Iraq is a fulfillment of prophecy, I wish we weren’t there. I’m not having a good time here, watching nature trying to figure out what season it is, “wars and rumors of wars” earthquakes in diverse places, it’s not fun. |
Let me just put it this way, Anne. The will of God is not being done here by our invasion and occupation of Iraq. That’s why it is not enjoyable, not something good, not fun. |
and just because it is “prophecy” does not make it a good thing, or a thing we should espouse. For example, Abinadi prophesied that King Noah would die a violent death by fire. Does that mean that King Noah should have embraced that prophecy? Or the Nephites, prophesied that their whole nation would be destroyed. Should they have embraced it? Should they have done more to make sure it would come to pass? Just because something is prophesied does not make that something the will of the Lord. |
that’s what I said. |
This is a thoughtful view: |
Dan E, thanks for this interesting and thoughtful post. I enjoyed reading it and some (but not all) of the comments. Posting on a controversial subject like this is often frustrating but helps you organize your own thoughts. I hope you found it fruitful. |
The great thing about this prolonged debate is that the participants have polarized. I find it very interesting that the blogosphere is mostly inhabited by polar constituencies and often adamantly so. This discussion is a search for truth and it is extrememly difficult to find the right answer, but I can say that I don’t believe anyone who would argue God’s will in the matter or refer to some scriptural antecdote in an effort to predict armageddon. Gimme a break. Read the prophets on those issues. I found Gordon B. Hinckley’s remarks on war as very enlightening: http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-353-27,00.html The fact is, hindsight is 20/20. Breaking down the decisions of the past and pointing fingers from our current position is a matter of hypocrisy unless it was done so with the same fervency then. Look back at yourself the day war was declared. What decision had you made concerning Iraq/President Bush/Al Qaeda in the time so close to the most terrible tragedy of our nation’s history. I don’t argue for President Bush’s war or the Surge or anything remotely connected to the political, because doing so would align me with hearts set to re-elction, election, power and influence, and deception. I read Michael Yon for my point of view- one of the personal struggles, sacrifice, and victory in war. He told of a doctor who was overjoyed at the overturning of Saddam’s Regime because now he would have the opportunity to build a hospital and clinics to provide medical care comparable to what we enjoy in high-wealth countries. The man was murdered by insurgents before his dream could be realized. The outcome is unknown. But one thing is certain: Should not the most “civilized” and powerful nation in the world be the most powerful force for good in the world? By hypocritically arguing the past decisions and motivations and ignoring the human element, not of our own selfish selves but of our brothers and sisters in Iraq, we condemn ourselves to our current society downward spiral of materialism and self-destruction. I thought the “shove freedom down your throat” argument- is that possible? |
Nasamomdele,
For my part, I was against this war from the start. I argued as vociferously as I could that my fellow Americans not fall for this bamboozlement. Too many Americans were blinded by the rage of 9/11 to think rationally enough, sadly.
Fighting who? Leading who? Who in Iraq follow’s America’s lead? I frankly don’t see anyone. They are all playing for their own gain. Just who are we fighting? Why are we killing Shi’ites? Why are we killing Sunnis? Shouldn’t we be killing Kurds who are killing Turks? The whole thing is one big ugly mess. Jesus taught us that by their fruits ye shall know them. What are the fruits of the war in Iraq? To this point, I see nothing that could counter the negative effects and consequences. To this point, they overwhelm those small gains we make that you bring up. The overall points to the most detrimental action in our nation’s history. When faced with the bigger picture, it does not matter how much sacrifice one soldier or another does for the cause, when the cause is so negative to our nation. Yes, this implies that our soldiers are not dying for a good cause, and their deaths are perhaps in vain. We should not be afraid to say such things. If they are, they are. Stand for what is right. Who wants to have their children die in vain? Not me!
That would be if we were indeed the most “civilized” and even most powerful nation in the world. Both are now in question. Heck we should be seriously troubled when our Attorney General nominee can’t even state that waterboarding (a practice begun by Spanish inquisitors) is torture and illegal in this country! That should send shivers down your spine! What does it say about our “civility” when we torture our prisoners? Most powerful? I would agree if mere insurgents didn’t stop our efforts, if cave-dwelling terrorists didn’t control us as much as they do. Please, we’re so afraid of these guys who really have only as much power as we give them. That is not power. That is weakness. Ironic, because war supporters claim their actions show “strength” when in actuality they show complete weakness and fear. |
“….Iraq, we condemn ourselves to our current society downward spiral of materialism and self-destruction….” C’mon mate, Nasamomdele #56 Insummary: Military-Industrial complex = materialism part. Self-destruction = US deficits to pay for it. Maybe Romney can fix this but he has to get elected first. Dan #57 Very true. And its something the rest of the world saw in the case of Iraq, this after the world supported the Afgan war -even the French! Now the USA is trying its darn hardest to imitate that terrible ‘Operation Condor’ of the 70s plus go on this crusade in the middle east. God only knows where it will all end up. Why couldn’t it do things legally like the British did with their London terrorist bombers who where chased by cops and brought before the courts?, or the Spanish with their bombers who where also chased by cops and last week where all sentenced by the courts? the same week when the Bali bombers had their death sentences upheld by the courts after having being chased by cops……. I seems to me that its the British, Spanish, and even the Indonesians, who are the more civilized societies where the rule of law actually rules. The US is lacking in this department today. It can’t even accept torture as torture..another characteristic of that nightmarish and infamous Operation Condor. But the US is still the biggest bully on the block so what can others do. |
Carlos,
Indeed, self destruction. We’re such a selfish generation that we don’t pay for our own wars! We make our children pay for them. Iraq is on a credit card, waiting for our children to grow up, to be saddled with our debt. Indeed, we self destruct. |
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All, |
“From what I’ve read from Carlos and Dan: For the record I don’t hate Bush nor the US. Nor am I a liberal. I’ve always voted here for John Howard, the conservative party here, who’s always had his nose up Bushs’ ……But I think that Bush, and our Howard, made a terrible mistake in Iraq. These ‘preventive’ wars are both a mistake and illegal across the world. It was better when the US only responded to attacks. And freedom should always be on an invitation basis otherwise it could not possibly be ‘freedom’. Hopefully Romney will win and fix that deficit first and then the other crazy Bush things -like a possible invasion of Iran, since Romney does change his mind frequently. Hopefully when he sees all the facts and intelligence he’s become more pro-life! I mean, not even Hitler was dumb enough to fight a war on three fronts, he stuck to East and Western fronts only. Bush-Cheney et all now seem to want to add more fronts to this war, Afgan first, then Iraq, now Iran; plus those clandestine jails in Europe and Guantanamo, plus wiretaps without a warrant…..and on and on…. Where will it end? But let me make it clear also that the 20year old soldier on the ground is not to blame & should not be critized or anything similar. He is doing he’s best and kudos to them for doing it. One should be able to condemn the action -war- without condemning the person -soldier-. PS this is very true: “P.S.- We don’t have children to pay for the war. We’re at less than replacement fertility in the U.S. Our new next-door neighbors from way down South are going to pay.” Its seems that only illegal mexican immigrants can increase the USs’ fertility rate!!!! |
Nasamomdele,
Really? Then what is the purpose of continuous airstrikes that kill civilians? Does the Army even realize how utterly counterproductive to counterinsurgencies it is to kill civilians, whether purposeful or not? They have this in their own counterinsurgency field manual, but yet they still call in airstrikes. (See calling in airstrikes instead of going in with ground forces is a manipulative way to show to Americans that fewer American soldiers are dying. See we don’t count the number of Iraqis dead, but we do count the number of Americans dead. Airstrikes lessen the number of Americans dead. By using airstrikes, we kill Iraqis, and yes, some civilians too, but we don’t kill Americans. This way, the military can report back that, hey, look, progress!)
Um, no they don’t. That’s one of the greatest misconceptions that Americans have about the world around them. The world DOES NOT want us to go around into every situation and be a sacrifice for human rights. In fact they deplore our actions! Please, Nasamomdele. Please go around the world and ask them yourself.
Hold on there, Nasamomdele, I have no problem defending my country, but it is not our universal right to fix problems around the world. I’m sorry but it just isn’t. We do not have the right to go traipsing around the world and forcing our guns on this or that nation and say, “fix thyself or else!” It doesn’t work that way. And I’m sorry that President Hinckley thought so in his War and Peace talk in April 2003. Did the Nephites ever pick up their arms to go into Lamanite territory to “free” the Lamanites of their oppressive rulers? NEVER. Yet, ironically, Captain Moroni is used as a justification for doing exactly that today! I’m sorry, but that is a misinterpretation of scripture. Captain Moroni was NOT defending freedom, as a principle. In fact, he used some totalitarian tools against his own people (such as curtailing some rights). No, Captain Moroni was not defending freedom. He was defending his country so that they COULD still have freedom, because they were threatened by a more powerful enemy, the Lamanites. To suggest that our enemy today is more powerful than us is ludicrous. We hold the most powerful military on the planet. Our enemies are cave-dwelling terrorists who don’t even hold land, much less the power to control a state. Sure, they are a nuisance and gaining strength (but that is directly Bush’s fault for diverting attention to Iraq when we should have kept our focus on Afghanistan). We cannot use Captain Moroni’s example today, because circumstances are not even close to the same. The Nephites were attacked by a more powerful Lamanite army. The Lamanites had taken over territory and claimed it their own. What did Captain Moroni do? He rallied his people to the cause they believe in so that they could get that territory back. After he accomplished that, did he take the fight into Lamnanite land? Of course not! Not even if the Lamanites were still being oppressed. Why not? Because that was not the Nephites’ right.
I’m not sure exactly what you are referring to, since your quoting got messed up. I’m guessing it had to do with the torture comment. Okay, let’s go through this. So what if Saddam tortured his people. Does that excuse us from doing the same? I always found this to be one of the most insidious rationales used by conservatives, the “he did it too” justification. The funniest is when you get someone like Tony Snow saying “well Clinton did it too, so Bush can.” Heh, the irony! It doesn’t matter is Saddam tortured his entire nation, Nasamomdele. It doesn’t matter if he tortured the entire world. It still does not change the fact that our laws have been clear that WE CANNOT TORTURE. It is illegal. It is morally repugnant. It is against God’s principles. Who cares if someone else does it. If we use them as an excuse, then we’ve failed to stand for the principles we believe in. It’s as if Captain Moroni turns around and starts using Amalikiah’s tactics on the Nephites. He argues that hey, “Amalikiah does it.” I don’t need to be a member of the ACLU to care about this. In fact, being a citizen of the United States is enough. Or it should be. But apparently many Americans have abrogated their principles for, well, what exactly? Their safety? Not really. We were never in actual danger. They just gave it up, for no good reason at all. Such a shame.
I don’t hate the man, but he certainly broke the law and violated the constitution. This is a man who should not be defended, but who should be tried.
Note the progression. If you hate Bush, you surely must hate the military and you surely must hate America. Do you REALLY believe this stuff, Nasamomdele? Do you really believe that someone speaking out against your Dear Leader hates America? Are you really that dumb?
Note the further progression. It goes from Bush, to the military, to America, and finally to your religion. If you hate Bush, you surely must hate your religion.
Actually yes you can. And therein lies the rub. We are NOT DOING GOOD in Iraq. It is really that simple.
Um, if he gives the order, the credit goes to him.
Um, it is the political leaders and the generals that give the orders, not the lowly soldiers on the ground. It is not the lowly soldier on the ground who must get blamed for the torture ordered at the top, but the other way around, the leader gets the blame for the order he gives. I thought this was a fundamental principle we all believed in.
No doubt. But that’s not what I’m arguing. I’m arguing that to make “someone” better off over there cost far too much to make that small gain worth it.
It may be sad, but unfortunately it is true. That’s the one gigantic tragedy of our actions in Iraq. And no, Iraq then is nowhere near to what Iran is now. Iran is a fairly good country, and a heavenly place in comparison to Saddam’s Iraq.
So it gets this insidious eh? Instead of making white Americans pay for the war you fight, you turn the payments over to the new landlords, the Mexicans. heh, the logic astounds me! |
Nasamomdele, The tired old “20/20 hindsight” argument can be used to justify just about any screw-up, no matter how idiotic it was. You’re going to have to do better than that. |
I think that the discussion is having trouble shifting from “My Leader” in George Bush to good things happening in Iraq as per #6 thing not to say. I actually agree with the FACTS that Bush fumbled into Iraq and things have been mishandled until recently. I don’t believe those facts trump the good being done on the ground, which I also believe is not represented nearly enough. I think Bush and his boys have done a pretty pathetic job with their policy/strategy, etc. and could honestly care less about what is said about the man. This does not create a resentment for the troops fighting for others’ lives and sacrificing in honorable ways. |
Should that include anyone, including Bush and Cheney and any other war supporter, who had never been to Iraq before the war began? Why should we have listened to their arguments beforehand if they had never been there and had not known “a lot about it?”
Well then consider me a player, as I’ve been against this from the start. |
Dan Ellsworth #24 Thankyou for telling me about the Daily Kos. I didn’t know it existed before you ‘politely’ mentioned it. Although they are too left-wing for my liking they do have some good stats and details, like this when discussing the surge: “So far this year, 839 coalition soldiers have died in Iraq. Ten fewer than were killed in all of 2004, the year with the worst fatality tally so far. Since March 20, 2003, when the invasion of Iraq was launched, there have been 4145 coalition fatalities.” Maybe one day you will notice these 4145 deaths. |
“You won’t hear honorable troops bemoan the process of the invasion, they’ll spend more time honoring their brothers in arms and those who support them.” Sheer hogwash. You ever listened to any of our troops dear? I have. They are pissed. True, they are not calling for a withdrawal. But they pretty much think this whole thing has been screwed up big time and are resentful of the leadership that got them in this mess. But by and large, they are fans of the surge and General Petraeus. They think they are finally getting it right and doing things the way they are supposed to be done. They are soldiers, and they do what they’re ordered to do. Active soldiers aren’t supposed to comment on political issues. So you don’t hear much from the officers (convenient for the Republicans who like to pretend they speak for “our troops”). But off the record a pretty clear picture is emerging that almost the entire Pentagon thought this war was a mistake from day one, but was willing to give the administration the benefit of the doubt since they supposedly had intelligence that the military brass lacked. As for the foot soldiers, they feel like they’ve been hung out to dry. Your assertions about their morale might have been true about 2 or 3 years ago. But not any more. I just love how conservatives just assume they speak for “our boys over there.” They don’t. And you don’t either. |
“As for the 20/20 hindsight argument, it does well at revealing the critics from the players. You won’t hear honorable troops bemoan the process of the invasion, they’ll spend more time honoring their brothers in arms and those who support them.” My brother just got back from a year serving as an MP working in Iraq. He was outside the wire, training Iraqi police. He was in vehicles that were exploded by IEDs, shot at on numerous occasions (sometimes by the police when he showed up at a police station to work with them). He was always opposed to the invasion of Iraq. He reads military journals and has been through ROTC training, and it was clearly NOT a military decision but a political decision. |
“But by and large, they are fans of the surge and General Petraeus. They think they are finally getting it right and doing things the way they are supposed to be done. They are soldiers, and they do what they’re ordered to do.” I think we should listen to the soldiers. And this leads your contradictory argument about morale: “Your assertions about their morale might have been true about 2 or 3 years ago. But not any more. I just love how conservatives just assume they speak for “our boys over there.†They don’t. And you don’t either.” No “assertions†from me. I don’t think I speak for our boys either. You said it better than I could. |
Nasamomdele,
Then listen to a Lieutenant Colonel who writes in the Armed Forces Journal:
There are numerous other examples I could share. The important point is that the soldiers are not monolithic. They actually do have varying views on politics. Many are disillusioned by our actions in Iraq. Many are not. So when you say “listen to the soldiers” do you really mean “listen to the soldiers who still believe?” |
The problem is Nasamomdele, the surge is officially over. Everyone, Bush included, knew it was not long-term sustainable. The soldiers do not have the big-picture on this. They only know that they are finally fighting this war the way they should have been fighting it in 2003. But it’s really too late for this new approach to work. It probably could have worked in 2003. But not now. The military is worn-out and at the limits of its endurance as an organization in Iraq. The equipment is breaking down, recruiting is dropping off, soldiers are burning out and their families are collapsing. We can’t keep it up. The only thing to do now is to find a way to end it – regardless of whether we are victorious or not. |
Kutos, I really enjoyed that article. In the case of the surge, I think the military has done some of the things he mentioned. We are now hearing of successes of Patraeus and the Surge. In your words, “many are disillusioned, many are not”. I think I’m clearly stating that I agree with those not disillusioned. However, I don’t think that aricle was the testament of a disillusioned soldier supporting a “get out” policy, but rather an approach toward military and policy reform, things I think we all agree are always in demand. His closing, “believing” statement- |
Seth, |
Nasamomdele,
Really? Has there been some political reconciliation that I somehow missed? What about the debaathification policy? Was it rescinded and somehow I missed it? What about the oil law? Was it passed and I missed it? The point of the All-Glorious Surge was NEVER just a matter of lowering the violence. It was ALWAYS about the political reconciliation. Take a look at Bush’s own words:
On NONE OF THOSE POINTS have we had any semblance of success. Sorry, Nasamomdele, but the Surge is indeed a failure. |
This conversation is still going? I’ve had insanity going on with work, so I haven’t been able to keep up here much. Nasamomdele, you mentioned how polarized the debate is, and you’re right. On the left, people still accuse the administration of “cherry picking” intel, despite congressional inquiries that have proven the contrary, but that’s part of a whole list of talking points that are less about proving anything about the war, and more about making people on the left feel personally moral compared to George Bush. |
Dan E.,
This, to you, is worth 4000 dead American soldiers? This to you is worth $1 TRILLION dollars on a credit card for your children to pay? Are you truly saying that from your point of view, our actions there are worth the enormous costs? You’re actually saying that having a fractured, contentious, and always on the brink of disaster Iraq is worth the price we’ve paid, we’re paying, and will continue to pay? Can you see why I get so frustrated with war supporters? I really think they’ve lost their sense of reason and can’t seem to properly and realistically assess the costs and revenues of our actions anymore! Iraq is worse than Pakistan is. Pakistan is NOT on the brink of disaster. However, Pakistan’s slide is a direct result of our diversion to Iraq, instead of focusing on Afghanistan as we should have. Afghanistan’s disaster is a direct result of our diverting our resources and attention to Iraq, when we should have focused on Afghanistan. How can you sit there and tell me Iraq was worth it when we’ve not only lost Iraq, but Afghanistan and now Pakistan? This truly is the worst mistake America has ever made. |
Furthermore, (I should have written this in the comment above, but moved too quickly), we “leftists” did NOT hope for failure from the start. We argued, wisely and presciently, that the action would fail by actually taking it! What you are arguing is like saying Abinadi was hoping for King Noah to die by fire when he said he would die by fire. |
or a less prophetic example, meteorologists who predicted last season we’d get 5 hurricanes, and you say, “yeah, they hoped from the start we would get five hurricanes.” |
The New Republic is getting to the heart of partisan Democrats’ need to paint the worst possible picture of Iraq (and conversely, partisan Republicans’ need to paint the best possible picture). |
Dan (78), http://thehill.com/byron-york/dems-real-big-problem-2007-08-03.html quote:
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Dan E., Problem is that in April, the military will begin running out of fresh soldiers and will have to start sending them home to rest, unless the military is really willing to press them even further than they have been pressed. Yet we hear from Petraeus that it will probably take like nine more years or so for this to really play out properly (and unfortunately he was still being unrealistic, because he will continue to have insufficient numbers of troops—but he’ll never actually tell you that). I’ve seen that kind of talk that you share from the New Republic numerous times over the past four years. It’s unfortunately not going to happen because we’re completely failing on the political front in Iraq. |
Dan E., #81, Just how does that translate to leftists hoping for failure in Iraq? We’re NOT hoping for failure, Dan. Think of it this way, we’re the ones actually hoping we’ll WIN! Why? because if we win, then there is no reason for us to be in Iraq anymore! :) Bring the troops home, man. |
Dan, I agree with you more than you might realize; I would like to see a withdrawal this spring, with the understanding that our troops have done everything we have asked them to do and it’s entirely in the Iraqis’ hands at this point. |
But Dan E., just how have Democrats and leftists used this war for political purposes? We want this war to END! It never should have been started. This war was thrust upon us by Republicans hoping to use it to gain a large majority rule for generations to come. It had nothing to do with WMD. It had nothing to do with Al-Qaeda. It had nothing to do with humanitarian disasters. It had everything to do with the 2004 elections. That’s why we went to war in March 2003. It was all about the November 2004 reelection of George W. Bush, and the Congressional elections meant to strengthen Republican rule. I really hope you can see that, Dan. |
“This war was thrust upon us by Republicans hoping to use it to gain a large majority rule for generations to come. It had nothing to do with WMD. It had nothing to do with Al-Qaeda. It had nothing to do with humanitarian disasters. It had everything to do with the 2004 elections. That’s why we went to war in March 2003. It was all about the November 2004 reelection of George W. Bush, and the Congressional elections meant to strengthen Republican rule.” Dan (85), How have Liberals used the war? Reference #81. It’s naive to say that either side HASN’T tried to use the war for political gain. BTW, Democrats hold the majority in both the House and Senate. You know that, right? This is now a purely political debate over intentions and positions, which are, respectively, very hard for anyone to really know and almost impossible for anyone to move from. |
Nasamomdele,
indeed, because the American public has realized that Republicans are not giving them a victory in Iraq. It’s not because Democrats used the war for political leverage. In fact, I recall quite strongly on many occasions right before the November 2006 elections President Bush, VP Cheney, and a whole slew of others trying to frighten Americans into not voting for Democrats. They say, if you vote for a Democrat, you vote for Al-Qaeda. If you vote for a Democrat, you surrender, and so on. That is despicable politics.
Which happened in 1988. I don’t seem to recall President Reagan making much of a fuss about this…
Due in large part to sanctions we placed on them.
No WMDs. The inspectors actually did their jobs. The reason why the plan failed and now Democrats hold a majority (and will win the 2008 elections—unless Bush follow’s Musharraf’s path), is because the Bush administration has failed in Iraq. Iraq was supposed to be their springboard to majority rule, but it will end up being the mill around their necks as they drown in the ocean. |
Umm, Republicans were in the majority when we invaded, and they won an even greater majority in November 2004 after everybody realized we were in deep caca there. |
Democrats, worrying about the 2008 elections? Dan E., projections right now show that Democrats will get a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. They may not get a veto proof majority, but they will have a Democrat in the White House. Few poll numbers I’ve seen show any of the Republican candidates as beating out the Democratic candidates. And it does indeed have to do with Iraq. In any case, we’re not going to agree on everything. And I’ve said my peace. |
I couldn’t resist the urge. My take: - Bush truly was concerned after 9/11 about Saddam’s WMD (widely believed at the time) would reach people who would use them against us. (Even if the nature of the Saddam-AQ contacts were unclear to most analysts at the time) - Comments like, “This war was thrust upon us by Republicans hoping to use it to gain a large majority rule for generations to come.” are outlandish and undercut the credibility of the author. - My experience supports the conclusion that the military is aware of the negative consequences of civilian casualties and makes a great effort to avoid them. - My opinion is that while our “occupation” added fuel to elements of the insurgency, our early withdrawal would have led to a much worse situation. We may be fast approaching the break-even point where it hurts more than it helps. |
I completely agree |
“our early withdrawal would have led to a much worse situation.” Dude you need to study some recent history, like the Korean War and Vietnam War. During both those of the military-industrial complex used exactly the same arguments that you guys are using today with Iraq. Both are wrong. “about Saddam’s WMD (widely believed at the time) would reach people who would use them against us. (Even if the nature of the Saddam-AQ contacts were unclear to most analysts at the time)” NOOOOOOO; Only America and Tony Blair thought they had WMD’s. The rest of the world where looking to the inspectors, as the French told you. Then, the rest of the world saw no connection at all between Saddam-AQ, that was just a GOP fantasy. The rest of the world saw that war for what it actually was -finishing Dad’s war of 1989. Maybe the US is a bit behind everyone else on this issue but history world wide is being written, and this Iraq war was just a preventive-illegal one and was just to finish Daddy’s war of 1989 (although they won’t write it that way off course). Problem is that the US population will be thinking about this war, trying to figure it out, for as long as they’ve talked about Vietnam. |
Needless to say using an overly simplistic analogy about Vietnam is not very persuasive. I don’t remember a South Korean insurgency against the U.S. To say that only the U.S. and the UK believe Saddam had any WMD programs is plain false as well. It is often mentioned in the many reports that have been written about our failed analysis of Iraq’s WMD program, that “groupthink” among intelligence services became a problem because we all often relied on each others sources and assessments. I’m not saying all agreed as to the imminency of the threat. I am saying all were surprised to find nothing. As stated in the WMD Commission Report, “In fact, one reason for the apparent unanimity among Western intelligence services that Iraq posed a more serious WMD threat than proved to be the case was the extensive sharing of intelligence information, and even analysis, among liaison services. Such sharing of information, without sharing of source information, can result in “groupthink” on an international scale.” (p 180) And back to the ridiculous Vietnam analogy, they were afraid of a North Vietnamese takeover of the South (which it appears you recall happened) and that further states would fall to Communist forces (which didn’t happen). At any rate, this analogy does not fit in trying to understand whether U.S. forces added anything to the stability of Iraq. |
I also think someone who uses such strong wording as “NOOOOOOO; Only America and Tony Blair thought they had WMD’s.” would have at least a basic understanding of what these allied services were saying at the time. An uninformed person could have made the mistake of thinking the author actually had some insight into this topic. |
“I don’t remember a South Korean insurgency against the U.S.” There never was one. But,…..well, at least I tried! Point was that the arguments used back then where similar to the ones used by you guys today, ie “It’s better to fight the communists over there than in the Mississippi” & “if we withdraw the communist will overrun Korean and then Japan….etc etc Surely you saw the GOP use these same lines to win the 04 election? If you didn’t then there’s nothing anyone can do for you. And the WMD’s Commission report written by….wait for it…..the US government!!! yes sir, the US big brother, the President’s men following Executive Order 13328 with the help from some Democrats who wanted to discredit him! Yes,….. right….. Anyway proves my point, only the US thought it was right to invade a sovereign nation chasing WMD’s -and Blair, because the majority in Britain didn’t want the Iraq war or you never heard that either? At least Blair lost his job over Iraq, Rumsfeld lost his job too over Iraq and Bush?………well here, this is Bush’s legacy: http://youtube.com/watch?v=OBE2h8Gdmvc Brian mate, amigo, friend, dude, you live in a fantasy land! But at least you follow Mormon prophesy which says that after the US wastes its wealth and inheritance fighting foreign wars then the internal war starts….with the constitution hanging by a thread and so on. You do remember these prophesies and who said them? Re #94, cute! very cute. |
Your response is either incoherent by accident or by design (because you don’t want to address my points directly). - Your attempt to use the Vietnam analogy in relation to the argument for fight the terrorist “over there” has nothing to do with anything I said. You originally tried to use Vietnam (and Korea!) to respond to my believe that things would have been a bit worse had we departed immediately after the invasion. - Anyone who has taken a look at the WMD Commission report can tell you it was not favorable to the Bush Administration. Having personally read allied intel assessment before the War, I can tell you, they believed Saddam likely retained at least some of his WMD (widely publicized after the war). They disagreed about the degree and imminency of the threat. The only one disputing this is…you. - Your rant about Bush, Blair, and Rumsfeld has nothing to do with any of the points I made. When did I say I think the invasion was a good idea? Take another look at what I said. |
Brian,
Please reread comments made by one Karl Rove—chief political strategist for the Bush administration and Republicans—to Republicans in January 2002, telling them to “run on the war” in their Congressional elections that fall. Please review Andrew Card’s words to the New York Times in August 2002 that you cannot market new products in August, when asked why the Bush administration was waiting until September to ratchet up their language and war build up. And then get back to me about my credibility.
Huh, so why has the military used 250,000 bullets for every insurgent killed in Iraq? Where do you think those bullets go off to? Who do those bullets possibly hit? I mean, talk about poor aims! 250,000 bullets for every bad guy killed. I do better than that on Halo!
If there is no political reconciliation (which there is no sign of any coming anytime soon), the All-Mighty Surge is a complete and utter failure. Point. Dot. Period. Because in the end, it doesn’t matter if Shi’ites, Sunnis, and Kurds can’t live together in the same place.
Um, talk to Colin Powell who said this in February 2001:
Sheesh, what was Powell thinking telling the truth! |
Let’s just review those words again from the Secretary of State, the former Chief of Staff, retired General Colin Powell, on Iraq. These are words he said in February 2001 in Egypt after meeting with Egypt’s foreign minister. 1. Sanctions “frankly” worked. So….um….er…was Colin Powell wrong? Saddam was boxed in in February 2001. Two years later we invade the country. What changed on 9/11? Certainly nothing in Iraq. If anything, Saddam’s Iraq was continuing the downward spiral that occurs from debilitating sanctions. UN inspectors did their jobs in the 1990s as they said they did. When you look at all the evidence dispassionately, it sure does look like the United States willfully chose to ignore the evidence it wanted, overplay the evidence it wanted, and finally get the war they’ve been itching for for 12 years. |
Dan, CAC- I think Brian actually made sensible and forthright assessments of the Iraq situation. The key is that we make assessments, not conclusions. A sensible, reasonable assessment would include: at no point saying one agrees or disagrees with the idea of going to war in Iraq or that one voted for or against George Bush. Those would be two very critical assumptions of a good argument in this discussion as you’ll see the original post is based on those things. What comes out in your arguments’ case is: 1) People are inherently good and intelligent, except most Republicans- especially George Bush. I didn’t vote for George Bush because he is Turd #1 and this war is based on him wanting re-election. Anything associated with him is Turd as well. Therefore, any bite of info to that effect that I can find I will present. No other explanation necessary. 2) I hate the Iraq war because of point #1. Conclusively, nothing good can come to Americans or Iraqis because of anything that has happened or will happen because of #1. Being anti-war is the right thing to be, except when based on #1 or #2, and, only in my opinion, if that infringes on your respect for those who make life sacrifices for others in situations of war, not for the sake of Dubya, but rather for the sake of brothers in arms and Innocent Iraqis. Leaving it out there that our soldiers or their commanders target civilians or don’t care about Iraqis is actually more an ideal expressed in the “pull out now” strategy, but alas, #2 prevents any other strategy from being acceptable. Beside which, it is rather presumptuous. It may be hard to get past some basic accusations because of political leaning, but please try and expand the reasoning. I think that this is the basis of this discussion. Otherwise it is pretty counterproductive and sometimes insulting. |
Nasamomdele, Expand reasoning? Like war supporters did in 2002? Would they have accepted the possibility then that Iraq didn’t really have WMDs? Did they even bother to consider that we may not have needed to go in? Did they take seriously the words of Colin Powell in February 2001 when he said that sanctions worked, and that Saddam did not reconstitute his WMD program, and that he was not a threat to his neighbors? Where was their reasoning when it really MATTERED? See war supporters want to “reason” now, when their whole rationale and credibility is in tatters. Sorry, but you guys made the wrong move in 2002 when it mattered. Now you want me to reason with you? Only if you bring our country back to how it was before your war. Then I’ll consider it. |
Dan, Expanded reasoning like the Clinton Administration first addressing Iraq as an issue where the country needed to be converted into a democracy and Saddam kicked out and getting a resolution passed to on those lines. Expanded reasoning like the same Colin Powell that went in front of the UN in 2000 stating that there were WMDs deliverable to the Eastern Seaboard of the U.S. by UAVs. Wow. Again, sources. Read the history and you’ll find that Bush won in 2000 on tax cuts and nearly lost in 2004 on Iraq. And who is a war supporter here? You argue for your cause, other arguments are simply against your cause, not for the opposing cause. Most people try to find an objective point of view on such an issue. |
Dude! Clinton was wrong too. As to the Colin Powell thing from 2000, do you have a citation, please. |
Brian: -”….to my believe that things would have been a bit worse had we departed immediately after the invasion.” Same was said during the Korea and Vietnam conflicts. That’s the whole point. Same arguments where used back then as you are using today. Plus all the others mentioned. -”Anyone who has taken a look at the WMD Commission report can tell you it was not favorable to the Bush Administration.” Because of the democrats on the commission! I said that. Agreed. But it was written by the US government not the UN or EU. You quoted the WMD Commission report to argue that the entire western intelligence community thought the way the US did. Well, actually they didn’t. Only the US, Britain, Australia and to a lesser extent Spain believed this. Why do you think Canada wasn’t part of the invasion? or Germany? or France or Italy? Unless you consider these countries non-western? (And I’m in australia by the way!) Anyway your question: “When did I say I think the invasion was a good idea?” Glad you’re converted to the side of common sense and civility! Now, maybe, you can see some war time movies, from say ’52-’55 and any Vietnam movie to see how people thought back then since books take a long time to read? Did you see the youtube clip? any thoughts? Interesting study item for a sociology class. |
#99. Nasamomdele You only reach those 2 points if you see the US as the only nation on earth & that every issue is argued because you’re either democrat or GOP. |
Dan, I mixed up the Colin Powell date- 2003. Read on… http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/05/sprj.irq.powell.transcript/index.html CAC- That’s my point. How can such a stand be taken when the US is not the only nation on Earth and not everyone is Democrat or Republican, including myself? As for the comparison of Iraq to Vietnam or Korea, what ever happened to non-communists in those areas after the U.S. cut & run? Answer: Khmer Rouge, etc. There is a real danger from pulling out cold turkey- peoples’ lives are at stake. That’s why the surge is a good thing in a bad situation- There’s a focus on building the communities and establishing grass-roots democracy. What better way to pressure the government than with the citizens backed by U.S. forces? As for your Sociology class- http://www.indoctrinate-u.com/ As I said before, anti-war is the right thing to be. I’m not a supporter of war, but we have boys in one and the fate of the populace of Iraq hinges on what goes on here and there now, not in 2001, 2, or 3. I’m supportive of doing the right thing for us as well as the Iraqis, and then getting our troops out, no matter how they got there. |
Thank you Nasamomdele. I was pretty sure that Colin Powell did not present anything to the UN in 2000 that would directly contradict what he said a mere year later. But yeah, we can really go in depth with his false testimony to the UN in February 2003, if you really want. We can talk about the SOLE informant who Colin Powell based his testimony on, a drunk taxi driver aptly named “Curveball.” Shall we really talk about which Colin Powell presentation is more closely related to reality? Could it be the one in 2001 where he said Saddam had not reconstituted his WMD program, that sanctions worked, and Saddam was not capable of projecting conventional threats to his neighbors? Or the one based on the sole testimony of a deranged drunk Curveball? Like I said, in 2002, war supporters did not want to explore the possibility that Saddam was not the threat our politicians played him out to be. Now they want to talk reason. Heh. The reasonable thing to do is hold those who lied to us responsible, through war crimes trials. But by even daring to mention the words “war crimes” with Americans, I already have “painted” myself into a “leftist” corner, haven’t I? To stand for what is right, these days, means to be an extreme leftist. Or a loony Ron Paul supporter. What Bush has done these past six years are things we used to attack other countries for! Now we’re doing them! Can’t you see? |
Again, let me make clear I am not defending the decision to invade Iraq. I am trying to describe how we got there and the simple point that there would have been more chaos had we left immediately after Saddam’s fall. I fear Dan E may be correct that in the end they may have to pass through a full fledged civil war before they make it to the other side. I don’t endorse Karl Rove’s wanting to use the war on terror in a Machiavellian way for political purposes. I also do not think that is why the Iraq war was “thrust upon us.” None of the anti-Bush expose books revealing the inner workings of how the war came about even mention this as a significant factor. I did see an Op-ed piece in the LA Times about it. Maybe that’s where you got your talking points. Yes. Reconciliation is a critical piece. Again the incoherence issue. Are you saying that reconciliation would have been more likely over the past few years had we not been there after Saddam’s fall? Well Powell’s comment you quoted sure didn’t sound like his UN speech (or the many other statements he made before the war) or the DIA, CIA, NIC, State pre-war assessments of Saddam’s WMD program. Kind of sounds like you’re cherrypicking the statements you like (kind of ironic!) Again, I’m not trying to say the war was justified. I am simply saying Bush believed Saddam likely had bad stuff that could be shared with bad people and he was worried about it. I think this was one of his primary motivations. I’m not saying I would have reached the same conclusion to go to war about it (especially in hindsight) if I was in his shoes. It sounds like when someone points out an aspect of the WMD Commission that you don’t like, you emphasize that it was written by, “by….wait for it…..the US government!!! yes sir, the US big brother” and when someone points out that it was anti-Bush, you say, that’s because of the Democrats on the Commission. Kind of strange. |
“Iraq to Vietnam or Korea, what ever happened to non-communists in those areas after the U.S. cut & run? Answer: Khmer Rouge, etc. There is a real danger from pulling out cold turkey- peoples’ lives are at stake” Interesting. Why not self determination for peoples? for nations? Sometimes nations choose other systems than democracy, even if its a mistake. If it is they eventually overrun it, like Russians have and like Vietnamese have to some extent by having a more market economy today. But you seem to imply -between the lines- that the US is some world police for democracy? Well, if you do, good luck to you. Its not necessarily a bad option of cause to spread democracy, but it costs a lot in lives and wealth. By the way Khmer Rouge was in Cambodia not Vietnam. But since america is a long way away for southeast asia I don’t hold this against you. |
Brian: “It sounds like when someone points out an aspect of the WMD Commission that you don’t like, you emphasize that it was written by, “by….wait for it…..the US government!!!” Again you’ve missed the point. You, Brian, where arguing that this WMDC Report proved or showed that all western intelligence thought the way the US intel thought. That is what I disagreed with. Most of the Western World did not agree with the US intel on Iraq prior to the invasion even though only France and Russian told you so in the Security Council. But enoughs said now since you won’t answer my questions on that youtube clip. Did that offend you? or didn’t you find it funny? I don’t know. |
And http://www.indoctrinate-u.com/ seems down? or always like that? |
Brian,
Why do you think I can’t reason on my own what I see before my eyes? Why do you think I simply take what is given me by others to simply regurgitate? Why do you expect this of me when I don’t expect this of you? Please, be respectful to those you debate. There are actually people out there who came to their conclusions all on their own based on their observations of what they see. One of those people would be me. :) I studied International Politics at BYU. That was my undergraduate. I kinda know how politics works, dude. And you can bet your best silver nickel that the war in Iraq was mostly about the 2004 reelection of George W. Bush.
Who knows, Brian. But it doesn’t matter. We didn’t go into Iraq to forge reconciliation. Reconciliation is the core purpose of the surge, and there is nothing to show for it, as such the All-Mighty Surge is a complete failure.
Me? Cherry-pick statements? Of COURSE Colin Powell’s 2001 press conference does not sound anything at all like his false 2003 testimony to the UN. That was the point I was making, Brian! The February 2003 UN testimony was based off of ONE SOURCE! A drunk taxi driver they aptly called “Curveball.” Colin Powell was wrong. He later regretted his testimony. Bob Woodward’s book (or whoever else wrote about the incident, I can’t remember precisely), showed his rage at the CIA for not giving him accurate information to testify about at the UN. Of course Colin Powell’s words AFTER 9/11 were vetted by the White House to stay on message. In February 2001, just a month into the new administration, they didn’t get to Colin Powell yet. He was still a free spirit, an independent thinking man. Heck, just look at how they treated Mr. Powell when he said in March 2001 that the Bush administration would continue Clinton’s North Korea policy only to be publicly embarrassed by Bush HIMSELF the very next day! You don’t remember this? These are the kinds of things you need to keep an eye out from ANY administration. These little things that actually give away the truth. See most, if not all, administrations run a SCRIPT. They go off a pre-conceived plot, and they’ve gotta all stay on message, at least the “Senior administration officials.” It doesn’t matter where the truth actually may lie. Colin Powell was not taught this yet in February and March 2001. So you see an honest man telling you as he sees it. Then 9/11 came. Nothing actually changed in Iraq at all. What changed is we started no longer seeing the world as it really is, but seeing it in the color of blood.
Bush is not in a position to “believe.” Especially not if he wants to go to war over WMDs. He is in a position to either know or not know. He did NOT know. He only thought he knew. Of course, he sold the public a shadow, a mirage, smoke, something that did not exist, without letting the public actually know that he did not really know, but only believed. This is called deception. This is called bamboozling. Charlatans do this to get something from you they normally cannot get when only facts and truth are presented. |
Nasamomdele and Brian,
Just a quick note about the Khmer Rouge. Pulling out of Vietnam had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the Khmer Rouge’s rise to power in Cambodia. Why would that be, you ask? Well, see, if we actually look at the facts, if we actually look at history how it actually happened (not like we wish it happened so it would fit our pre-conceived ideologies), Cambodians do not live in Vietnam, see. They live in Cambodia, see. We invaded Vietnam, right? The country next door. As I recall, Cambodians did not attack us (or if the few that did, it certainly did not call for any incursions into Cambodia to weaken the country). So what happened in Cambodia? It certainly has something to do with our actions in Vietnam. Who expanded the war into Cambodia? Oh yeah, some dude named Richard Nixon. Now, why would he do something so stupid? Ah, he didn’t trust that the Cambodians could handle things on their own, so he set up a puppet government which created a civil war in Cambodia, effectively destabilizing the country (plus let’s not forget the illegal bombings of the countryside), allowing a huge opening for the Khmer Rouge to take over. Now, since we weren’t really in Cambodia, since we really didn’t have a huge host of forces hanging out ready to stop dastardly Khmer Rouge folks from taking over, just, well…uh, just how could our non-withdrawal of Vietnam stopped the Khmer Rouge from taking over Cambodia? The logic is getting kinda fuzzy and all. We’re in Vietnam. The Khmer Rouge is gaining power in Cambodia because of our destabilizing of the country…huh. Oh and we haven’t “cut and run” from Korea. We’re still technically at war with the North. Just another historical factual quibble. And finally, I think CAC brought this up, but interestingly southern areas of Iraq where the British used to occupy have seen a drastic drop in violence since the British have begun withdrawing. Huh…imagine that. Violence goes down when the occupiers leave. Amazing. |
In contrast to most of the rest of the country, where we have seen mayhem as we have left towns to fend for themselves in the past. As Brian said, cherrypicking happens on both sides of the partisan war debate, which is why I excuse myself from that debate. I don’t take seriously any war position that doesn’t acknowledge the strengths of other points of view, and the weaknesses of one’s own. |
- Due to Dan’s strong plea, I’ll grant him that he came up with his Oliver Stone-ish, “we invaded Iraq just to win an election” theory all by himself, independent of the LA Times op-ed piece (and any real evidence) based on deductive logic learned at BYU. - Due to CAC’s encouragement I clicked on his link to a Conan O-Brien segment where funny voices/accents were overlaid on Tim Russert Meet the Press interviews. Not sure what this has to do with anything or what questions you asked about it. - The fact that the US intel community believed Saddam likely retained WMDs (in some fashion) is not in question. - Yes, I never said Allied countries agreed in every way with our assessment about the state of Saddam’s WMD program. And obviously they disagreed with whether it warranted military action. Even those who thought he had not reconstituted his WMD program did agree with us that he likely retained some of his old WMDs. Allied intel services were surprised to find nothing there at all. This point was only made to show that Bush had reason to think at a basic level that Saddam still had bad stuff to share with bad people. (Even if certain people in his administration exaggerated, cherrypicked or did other bad things with the intel/assessments) - If Dan E’s hypothesis about Iraqis needing to pass through a civil war to find stability is correct (and I fear it might be), than our early withdrawal possibly would have started that process sooner. I still hold some hope that they can pull it out without that. |
Brian: You just have no sense of humour at all! (And it was about Bush’s legacy) |
Brian,
Why do you continue the disrespect dude? Fools mock, but they shall mourn. As for evidence, here you go.
Karl Rove and the Republicans made the war a partisan issue. Out of his own lips, Brian.
Um, no, the US intel community did NOT believe Saddam likely retained WMDs. They in fact did not know, but surmised that that was the case. If you read the NIE of October 2002 that was released to the public and compare to the classified version later leaked, you’ll find that the CIA under orders from George Tenet removed hedging words like “may” “we think” “might” and such, and replaced them with words such as “we know” “he is”. By removing the hedge words, you fundamentally change the tone and tenor of the document. Your intelligence community is now telling you that they KNOW what they only really GUESSED. The trouble with all of this is that there was actually enough evidence in 2002 that the numbers were being fudged and we were being taken on a bamboozlement ride. Few wanted to actually listen, sadly. |
- Saying that Karl Rove wanted to use the war on terror for political advantage is a very long way from saying that is the reason we invaded Iraq. - The revisions you talk about in the NIE do not apply to whether Saddam still had chem or bio stockpiles. The intel community was very clear about that, “Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of UN restrictions.” They didn’t caveate that part at all. The revisions you refer to had to do with other aspects of the program. Here is the link: http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/reports/2002/nie_iraq_october2002.htm I challenge anyone to read this NIE (and the many other assessments) and walk away with this conclusion: “Um, no, the US intel community did NOT believe Saddam likely retained WMDs.” |
In 2001, I did a near eastern studies course at BYU where we surveyed the prevailing thinking on Iraq, and it’s true- all the allied intel said there were huge amounts of WMDs in the country, and redundant, iron-clad intelligence services with sophisticated mechanism for preventing Iraqis’ acceptance of bribes to collude with adversaries. There was also literature documenting the impossibility of ever capturing Saddam due to his use of between 5-10 surgically-modified people who served as his decoys, with facial features indistiguishable from his own. I initially opposed the war in Irag because, after reading the intel assessments, I anticipated us losing more than 40,000 troops to chemical warfare early in the campaign, and up to 100k in a drawn out war. That was the picture the intel gave; no cherrypicking needed. |
Dan E, That was not the picture the intel gave, because there were doubts among the intel community. These doubts were quashed rather than looked at seriously. Besides which, Dan, it does not matter what was known or not known about the bio weapons. That’s NOT the reason given for war. Don’t you remember Condi Rice’s infamous “mushroom cloud” statement in October 2002 to CNN?
Raising up support among Americans was ALWAYS about the nuclear weapon. Just look at the build up to the inevitable war with Iran. What is it about? The nuclear weapon of course. To pursue this slight tangent just a little bit further, note that if we REALLY were concerned about what the Iranians know about the nuclear bomb, we would do all in our power to detain and interrogate the man who gave Iranians the nuclear know-how, one A.Q. Khan, of Pakistan. But note that we stayed silent as Musharraf pardoned Pakistan’s father of the nuclear bomb, instead of turning him over to the Americans for questioning, to find out just how far Libya, North Korea, and Iran got with their nuclear programs. But see, war with Iran is NOT going to be really about the nuclear weapon. That’s merely the scare tactic to get Americans behind yet another war. So anyways, back off the tangent. So back to what Bush knew before the war began. Read the following: http://nationaljournal.com/about/njweekly/stories/2006/0302nj1.htm
And
And you believed them, Dan, from what you just said. Mr. Waas digs deeper in his report:
Liars the whole lot of them. Can’t you see? This is what the INR said about the aluminum tubes:
In the end that ended up being the correct assessment. There is plenty in Murray Waas’ report that is worth noting about how we were lied to before the war. Mr. Waas’ report is of course after the war, but I remember reports (mostly out of Knight-Ridder—now McClatchy) that showed that the Intelligence community was divided, but that the administration did not portray that publicly. Mr. Waas merely compiled the evidence to prove that. We were lied to, Dan. Can you see why I have a hard time being reasonable about Mr. Bush and any of his supporters and loyal followers? |
And I should add, it also just didn’t make sense. Here we have Iraq devastated by the Gulf War and debilitating sanctions. Here we have a dictator taking kick-backs from the oil-for-food, which only really went to himself and his palaces, little trickling down to those in need, even within the military. Here we have a country where Saddam had little influence in nearly half of his country due to the no-fly zones. Kurds lived autonomously, and Shi’ites in the south enjoyed relative freedom from oppression. UN inspectors decimated Saddam’s weapons program (not completely of course). Colin Powell, when talking with Egypt’s foreign minister said sanctions worked, that Saddam was not able to reconstitute his weapons program, and that he was not a threat to his neighbors. Furthermore, nobody in the region felt threatened by Saddam. Note that not even Israel was fearing an attack from Saddam. (What Israel was preparing for was upon a US invasion if Saddam was to retaliate at Israel—which would have made sense, except of course, Saddam was in no shape to retaliate to anyone). If Saddam was not really a threat to his neighbors, how could he be a threat to America, 8000 miles away? It just doesn’t make sense. The facts did not fit the rhetoric coming out of the administration’s mouths. It did not make sense, if you could but look at it separate from 9/11 lenses. |
Dan, Your info is good and paints a definite Bush is Turd #1 picture for me, which I’m not against accepting. And it’s an education as I don’t profess to know intel unless I find it on google. But the picture is weakened to me by the fact that Bill Clinton and Congress passed the resolution for turning Iraq into a Democracy. That says Bush is Turd #2 to me. And I ask myself “who is to say that Gore or Kerry wouldn’t have acted in similar ways or worse, with more sanctions to do more damage to the populace rather than the real problem, the Dictator?” With that- honest question: What do you do with Iran, who is the new Iraq, or even to Iraq in 2003? Damage the populace through more sanctions, lack of action or attention, or war? I don’t like any of the alternatives, but with the blatant rights violations, something should be done. Something other than doing the daily routine with my head in the sand. So, if you will imagine this question asked in a completely non-accusational and honest way and no, I don’t think war is the answer: What do you do? I have a problem with one thing you said in particular, about which I tend to focus my optimism for fighting first a dictator and next insurgents and Al-Qaeda terrorists, namely that Iraq was a sort of harmless padded cell that was pleasant for anyone living within. I read and see a lot about the lives of iraqis, especially Shi’ites and I tend to agree with “thing not to say” #4. I can’t understand how things were better, unless you agree with segregation and worse. |
Dan, I like this comment you posted and I think it will help to see who you fighting against so fervently and continuously: Expand reasoning? Like war supporters did in 2002? – I think everyone here said “I’m not a 2002 war supporter” in one way or another. Would they have accepted the possibility then that Iraq didn’t really have WMDs? – You even said it, we were lied to. Did they even bother to consider that we may not have needed to go in? Did they take seriously the words of Colin Powell in February 2001 when he said that sanctions worked, and that Saddam did not reconstitute his WMD program, and that he was not a threat to his neighbors? – I presented the UN report. He said the reverse of all that. As you said, he lied to us. Where was their reasoning when it really MATTERED? – Hoping our troops would be in Berlin by Christmas and out by New Years. See war supporters want to “reason†now, when their whole rationale and credibility is in tatters. – See the first statement. And I think that you perceive “war supporters” as anyone who thinks anything positive has been, is, or will be happening in Iraq because of the U.S. presence. I think you could actually separate those people from your 2002 “war supporters”. Name me “One who sees an obligation to make Iraq better than we have made it”. Sorry, but you guys made the wrong move in 2002 when it mattered. – see above. Now you want me to reason with you? – Yes. See my last posted comment on how. Only if you bring our country back to how it was before your war. Then I’ll consider it. – Wow. Can’t do that. No one can. I hope this is not the entire foundation for your arguments against the Iraq war, because if you saw Napoleon Dynamite, time travel is unreliable, at best. Where do you go from this statement? You’re stuck in 2000 without an iPod. It’s like recording yourself throwing footballs at a video camera. |
Dan, you raise some interesting topics (the public case for the war, AQ Khan, alum. tubes, etc.). Someone may want to discuss them with you and Caca, as long as they don’t mind being called dude and being yelled at with ALL CAPS! Of course you are welcome to present them, but please do not raise them as though they are a coherent/reasonable rebuttal to any of the specific topics we have been debating. 1) Whether Bush believed Iraq likely retained WMD (Nobody here said anything about the state of their nuclear weapon program). 2) Whether the primary motivation for invading Iraq was to get more votes. I have talked about these topics for hours on end at Georgetown’s Security Studies MA Program and at the Joint Military Intelligence College with analysts/professors from all over the intel community (and from liberal thinktanks). In these forums, even the most vehement anti-Bushies don’t try to dispute these basic assertions as you two have courageously attempted to do. I would think this brings my little thread to a close (although stay tuned for some other random topic used as a rebuttal). I’ll be offline for a while on Thanksgiving travel. Happy Thanksgiving! |
Nasamomdele,
How is the picture weakened if Clinton and Congress fell for the same trick? It doesn’t make the trick anything else but a trick. It is still fake, no matter how many fell for it.
Of course we’ll never know. And that doesn’t matter. What Bush did matters because that’s reality.
Yes, actually if you but looked for it. The problem that we had in 2001-3 was that few were willing to go against the grain. The media was nearly completely culpable, framing the debates in such a way as to utterly dismiss any doubt about the direction we were to go. For example, shows would ensure that if you had a liberal on the show, you’d have TWO conservatives to counter the liberal. Review Bill Moyers’ documentary called “Buying the War” which I wrote about in that post I just linked to. Watch carefully and you’ll see the bamboozling act take place.
Of course there are positives. No one doubts that. But are those positives in any way WORTH the cost? Not a chance in hell.
Actually Vietnam stabilized fairly well once the North Vietnamese took over. And look now, we’re all good buddies. Cambodia is a far different picture of course. We never really went in, but we destabilized the country to the point where murderers in the Khmer Rouge could take over.
Hamas is not in Lebanon. That would be Hezbollah. Hamas is in Gaza Strip. And, fascinating tangent here, Hezbollah came into being BECAUSE OF an invasion of Lebanon by Israel. Israel so weakened Lebanon that murderers of Hezbollah could come to power. Imagine that. Fascinating isn’t it? You destabilize a country and thugs take over.
Well if you go on the premise that they are “the new Iraq”… But of course, that premise is false, just like the “old Iraq” was a false premise. Iran is not Iraq. Let’s just say that again. Iran is not Iraq. We are not in 2002 again. In fact, we are not even in 1939 again. Nor were we in 1939 in 2002! This is not stopping the “next Hitler.” This is not stopping the “next Saddam.” How I pray and pray that Americans would finally start looking at the Middle East realistically. But I can’t expect that anymore. Not after what happened in 2002-3. Iran is NOT our enemy. They HELPED us after 9/11. They mourned with us when we were attacked. They helped us with Afghanistan. They’ve helped us in Iraq. They’ve helped us against Al-Qaeda. And what have they gotten in return from the Bush administration? Threats of invasions and bombings. What idiotic folly!
Why?
Why?
Honestly? I invite Mr. Ahmadinejad more and more to the United States to make the speeches like the one he made at Columbia. There’s nothing like free speech to tear the curtain hiding the man behind the wizard. Ahmadinejad looked ridiculous at Columbia in several ways. He also looked very smart in other ways. I would improve diplomacy with Iran, immediately. They are not our enemy. They don’t need to be treated as our enemy. You want to know how you can stop Hezbollah’s continued destabilization of Lebanon? Work with Iran. Befriend Hezbollah’s financier. Get THEM to turn on Hezbollah. You’ll find that they will. Iranians are very smart people.
Um, wherever did I say something like that?!?!?!
Yes he did. Are we going to punish liars? Especially ones who lie about war? |
Brian,
They are central to the topic of Iraq. You may choose not to accept them, as you chose not to accept them in 2002. But that is to your detriment.
I don’t think you even read Mr. Waas’ report, Brian. He stated that Bush received dissenting views from his intel community that Saddam had not reconstituted their WMD program. It doesn’t matter what Bush believed. What matters is what he KNEW. And finally, I never said the primary motivation was to get more votes, but it was definitely a major factor. The timing of the war speaks volumes as to that. As Andrew Card said in 2002: http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/12/schneider.iraq/ Bill Schneider asks:
Oh and just to make the point about nuclear weapons being the KEY reason Bush said:
There’s that mushroom cloud again. Bio-weapons cannot create a mushroom cloud. Neither can chemical weapons. Only nuclear weapons can.
It just goes to show that sometimes your knowledge is a detriment rather than a strength, if you cannot accept the possibility that your analysis is wrong. I was willing to accept my analysis of the situation would be wrong, in 2003. I was waiting to see what the weapons search group would have found. If indeed they would have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, I would have conceded and worked on my analysis skills. Are war supporters willing to concede they were wrong and work on their analysis skills? Are they willing to concede that we’re being bamboozled again on Iran? You note how Nasamomdele framed his question on Iran, that it is the “next Iraq.” Is it really? Are we really that dumb to believe that? |
“… if you cannot accept the possibility that your analysis is wrong.” This is a good point of departure. On the issue of whether Iraq would have been more stable had we left immediately after Saddam fell, I lean toward thinking it would not have been. However, as with other alternate histories it is hard to have high confidence in them and I am very open to being persuaded on this matter. The Vietnam and South Korea analogies are not persuasive to me. The Basra point is interesting and is worth raising and pondering. For now it still isn’t sufficient to persuade me. I was at a conference in CENTCOM HQ two weeks ago where this very subject was addressed. Two British intel officers made the point that had they not been there the past few years the Basra area would not be at the point where they are now. Anyway, I am very open to being persuaded on this point. Next the issue of whether getting votes was a major consideration in invading Iraq. When I think of the motivations that have been asserted for the invasion, I think of…oil, fear of WMDs etc., neo-cons trying to transform the Middle East, humanitarian, trying to spread democracy and others. People who assert the above hypotheses usually have some evidence to support them and can make a plausible case for most of them. I can now add, thanks to Dan, that there is this other theory that a major reason for the invasion was to get more votes for Republicans. The only evidence of this very curious theory is that Karl Rove encouraged Republicans to highlight their “successes” in the war on terror in their political campaigns. And now he has added Dick Morris belief that the President is doing what Karl Rove described above. This is hardly evidence that a major reason for our invasion of Iraq was to get more votes. On this subject I have a moderately held assessment that Bush was worried about Saddam sharing WMDs (however he came to that conclusion). I could definitely be wrong on this subject but at least there are numerous accounts of him discussing this as opposed to zero accounts of him discussing invading to get more votes. Now to my favorite of Dan’s…the intel community did not believe Saddam retained any WMDs. One of my classes at the Joint Military Intelligence College was “Indications and Warning.” Intel Specialists from every gov’t agency spent several hours, as I mentioned, discussing how the intel community could have been so wrong in believing Saddam still retained his WMDs (I emphasize here, not whether he had reconstituted his program, that was another discussion). A couple of the many things discussed were…groupthink, similar Allied assessments, and Saddam’s desire to make the world think he still had them. I wish we could have had Dan as a guest speaker. He would come in and say, “Ladies and Gentlemen, I am here to tell you that those assessments all of you read (and some wrote) over the years before the Iraq invasion indicating that Saddam likely retained his WMD…well those assessments didn’t exist” and then he would do the Jedi hand wave in front of our eyes. If that didn’t work he could try to persuade us they did not exist by giving the class his take on all the Bush administration failings and scandals (as he has done for us). Needless to say, on this point, based on having read them along with many other individuals, I probably am not very flexible. “… if you cannot accept the possibility that your analysis is wrong.” I suspect people are wondering the same thing about Dan. |
Brian,
Of course he’s not going to discuss this openly! This is where political analysis kicks in, Brian. I wager that when we actually have access to the inner workings of the Bush administration, the strategies they worked on in the White House, the political ramifications of the 2004 election will be at the HEART of all their working policies, including the timing and the execution of the war in Iraq. If I am wrong, then so be it. But all my hunches about this administration have been correct to this point. They have yet to prove me wrong. On the issue of the Intel boys not getting Saddam’s WMD right, my quibble with you, Brian are the words “believed” and “every” government agency. Of course the CIA wrongly believed Saddam had WMDs. But see the key word there is “believe” not “know.” To “know” something is to have evidence of it. To “believe” something is to think something is there, but not to know it is there. That’s the key difference. The CIA is not in the business to believe. They are in the business to KNOW. Heck, Captain Bart Mancuso’s joke in Hunt For Red October: “Central Intelligence Agency…now there’s a contradiction in terms” is all the more laughably tragic! The CIA have said themselves that they lacked hard intelligence on the ground, and they based most of their assessments on either defectors who are not reliable, or assumptions, which you should never base your assessments on in the intelligence field. Secondly, as Mr. Waas’ report showed, not every agency was sold, thankfully. Some actually did their jobs and assessed the way they should have. Of course, they were at the State Department, and we know how the Pentagon snobbish warriors felt about the saps at Foggy Bottom.
Brian, you’re still stuck on the fact that we should have gone in regardless. Don’t you get it. We NEVER should have gone in in the first place. We had no justifiable justification. We were not threatened by Iraq. Iraq was not colluding with our enemy, Al-Qaeda. Iraq was not reconstituting their WMD program (as Colin Powell told us in February 2001), and Iraq was not a threat to her neighbors. Moreover, internally, Iraq was relatively peaceful. Saddam had not cracked down on anyone since 1992. There were no justifications to our invasion. None at all. The whole adventure was a sham, Brian. |
For some strange reason, I’m coming over to the dark side, Dan. Not about the whole thing or all of your opinions, but I don’t think our government should be able to arrest people without charging them or giving them any rights and keep them for years. No, that’s not good. I’m also starting to agree with you re the torture situation. |
Don’t feel too bad about it annegb. We do get to wear cool black capes. |
The other side just gets tacky white gallon hats. |
WOOHOO!!!!!!! And don’t believe the rhetoric from the real dark side, Anne, the light belongs to the side of the liberals. :) |
Brian, I want to add something more. Anne Applebaum writes in today’s Washington Post:
and
When America’s analysts are automatically discounted, that right there should tell you that the price of going into Iraq was too high to pay for the small gains we made. So what if Saddam is gone. That is not worth the price of our intelligence analysis automatically discounted in future problems. That is NEVER worth that kind of cost. |
Dan, I never said I currently think it was wise for us to invade Iraq. I only was describing what I thought was an important factor in it coming about. The statements about Bush genuinely being concerned about WMD I am referring to are not the public ones. The ones from insider accounts (including ones very negative to Bush, among them Clarke and Woodward). I think anyone involved in intel analysis would disagree with you on how often they are able to “know” many of the areas we cover. We basically try to lessen the uncertainty. (Even if they failed miserably in Iraq WMD assessments) yes, after the failed assessments of Iraq, it will definitely be harder to believed in the future. I think that about does it for my thread. I think I will give this an extended break. If I can’t get someone to admit the fundamental fact that the entire intel community believed Saddam likely retained WMD (I’m not talking about the many disagreements about other aspects of the current status of his program), thus influencing Bush to at least some degree, how could I hope to have a reasoned discussion on more complicated issues? Farewell to all you truth seekers out there. -Brian |
Brian, You keep saying the “entire community” believed Saddam “likely” retained WMD. But, well, I just can’t get past Colin Powell’s statement from February 2001:
I wonder what “intel” he based this assessment on. Was he wrong? |
Here’s the video of Colin Powell’s statement. It is a particularly damning video because it also include Condoleezza Rice saying the same thing in July 2001. Was she wrong? |
Colin Powell is a coward. Last night I read (the whole book) this book called Orpheus Lost. It told of ghost prisoners who were hidden and tortured by Iraqis and private American contracters in the vast catacombs under the streets of Bagdad. I do not feel good about that at all. The thing is, Dan’s right. We’ve been friends with Iran. Hell, we’ve been friends with Al Queda. We make strange bedfellows in the name of politics (and probably oil) and as we try to police the world. I think it’s the illuminadi. Because if we were truly concerned about the impoverished, dying people of the world, we’d have 100,000 troops in Darfur. In fact, I think the air force could have fixed that problem in ten minutes without risking a single American life. We are facing secret combinations. And in the case of Iraq, we are confronted with the idea that prophecy is being fulfilled, war in the middle east, the good being done, with the justifications for evil. We can’t justify one with the other. We just can’t. Dan, I don’t support your politics, but I think you’re right. |
I like Joe Lieberman’s take on the left and Iraq, quoted here. |
Dan E., Are you suggesting that someone like me is, in the words of turncoat Lieberman “emotionally invested in a narrative of defeat and retreat in Iraq?” Are you really going to take his words seriously? What is the difference from his words and that of George W. Bush who said this in October 2006, in an attempt to scare Americans into voting for Republicans:
Is that what you really believe, Dan? |
Folks- You want me to reason with you? Only if you bring our country back to how it was before your war. Then I’ll consider it. - Dan |
Just pointing out how unreasonable war supporters’ positions are today, Nasamomdele. To be on par, it is like me asking for you guys to bring the war back to before its start. |
Brian, Just one more thing to add thanks to Karl Rove’s recent interview with Charlie Rose where he had the audacity to claim that the White House didn’t press for the vote before the 2002 Congressional election! That of course is typical Karl Rove, revise history, throw everything on its head and claim the opposite of what you actually did. You bet the war in Iraq was politically motivated. |
You guys ought to read Pat Buchanon’s new book which has some sensible things to say about Iraq war. I just saw him on hannity and although its obvious that he’s a first rate racists he does have some common sense when it comes to Afganistan and Iraq. State of Emergency is his new book. At least some GOP people are seeing the light. |
Oh snap. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec07/reid_12-21.html |
Read his book, and I would recommend it as well…it’s best to always keep an open mind. |
so…. does anybody here still think the surge didn’t work? |
Indeed, the surge did not work. |
Then how come were not in Baghdad anymore? |
um, we’re still in Baghdad. |
what part of Baghdad? |
any part. doesn’t matter which. We’re still in Iraq and they are still killing each other. There is no political reconciliation. The surge failed because they never put in practice the real action needed to reconcile the political/tribal groups. This was a failure on the part of Bush. But then again, he wasn’t much good at anything. We’re barely lucky to get out of Iraq with some sense of pride, but when historians will look back at this awful debacle they will rightly denounce almost every single aspect of the mission in Iraq. |
But, Daniel, which part of Bagdad? It matters for purposes of this argument. You can’t just make an argument then say it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. |
anne, the reason it does not matter is that the purpose of the surge was not to get us out of Baghdad. |
ultimately the purpose of the surge was to provide the security to get the Iraqis to govern themselves so we can leave Iraq. The more military operations the Iraqis take over and do themselves and the more bases we turn over the closer we are to leaving Iraq… |
ah, so you agree also that it doesn’t matter which part of Baghdad. And you state accurately that the main purpose of the surge was to allow for political reconciliation. That hasn’t happen (and simply will not happen ever in Iraq). Thus the surge failed. The surge failed particularly because the ethnic cleansing (which was the main violence from 2004-2008) was nearly complete by the time the US increased its forces in the all-mighty Holy Surge. In other words, the lessening of the Iraqi-upon-Iraqi violence had absolutely nothing at all to do with the Holy Surge. |
no I just know you don’t know the answer to that question. As for “political reconciliation” Hell any kind of system that works is good for me, if the Sunnis get screwed oh well and vice versa… From your comment there it seems the only way that the surge could have not failed is for Iraqis to achieve some sort of (impossible by your own admission) “political reconciliation” so first question what is the state of political reconciliation that would have had to happen to make the surge a success in your mind. By my estimation anything that gets the Iraqis to govern themselves and let us get out of there is good enough for me. Also your stated reason that the surge failed because this “ethnic cleansing” was complete by 2008 makes no sense… |
That’s a lame answer. Because that was exactly the thinking of the CIA who, in the 1960s put the Baath Party in charge of Iraq. Saddam Hussein actually ran a fairly decent government (much better than the current one). Iraq’s economy was relatively good, and its society relatively educated and wealthy. So no, you don’t want “any kind of system” because clearly you didn’t like Saddam’s system.
Indeed. Hence why I thought it was one of the silliest ideas (of course not topping the original idea of invading Iraq in the first place) our military or political leadership could come up with. Now we think somehow the same thing will work in Afghanistan? Our military leaders need to stop smoking that poppy opium in Afghanistan. It is destroying their brain cells.
Then you were perfectly fine with Saddam’s regime? That was an Iraqi governing Iraq. And he was doing a pretty good job at keeping Iraq stable.
Huh? Why does it not make sense? |
1.who me? I didn’t like Saddams system? From personal experience I think it takes a guy like Saddam to control those animals. 2. So… what should we have done instead of the surge? I don’t think i’ve heard any realistic alternatives to that strategy from you? And Afghanistan? What to do there? If you’ve got a better idea let’s hear it. 3. yes 4. None of the stuff you’ve talked about substantiates an utter failure of the objectives of the surge strategy… |
I see why you find it so easy to want to kill Iraqis. After all, they’re only animals. I’m done talking to you. |
ahh… feign moral indignation to get out of an argument youre losing… |
in all reality anybody can say whatever they want about Iraq, you just might not want to say it to a guy who’s around 30 years old long hair and beard in a dirty DCU jacket. |
There really wasn’t a surge. We just figured out that we could pay off the major warlords. Worked like a charm. |
Oh, and we are out of our minds for being in Iraq. For any reason you care to mention. |
I dispute your supposed “fact” that hundreds of thousands were dying under Hussein when we attacked; other than those that starved because of the the embargo we put on the country. If we would have attacked 30ish years earlier, when they were fighting Iran (not our friend, last time I checked) then you would have a case. I we would have attacked after we backed out of Iraq during the first Bush war, then you’d have a case. When we attacked, not so much. |
I’m really wondering how this thread will look with another six months of hindsight. |
My comment will stand. |
157 Son of a noise band; there was no surge; just people riding around for all to see with the occasional tragic explosion, while behind the scenes, we paid off the warlords (Iraq is partitioned these days into warlord territories, as is Afghanistan (and any other libertarian state you should choose to mention) . You’ve been had. |
The “warlords” are in Afghanistan Fairy dust. If the surge gets us out of Iraq, then it’s a success to me. And yeah it was a “surge” because we added additional troops to the usual number of troops in the region. Oh and don’t just randomly apply what you think the average person that disagrees with you believes about the war in Iraq to me. I did two years there sister. |