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| Tuesday, May 21, 2013 |
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I shower quickly and turn off the faucet on the sink while brushing my teeth and shaving. I was raised to do this by my parents even though I’m from western Washington and have never known a water shortage. I was shocked in the MTC when my companion from Beaver, UT took long showers and left the faucet running from the beginning of his grooming regiment to the end. I was also shocked to see flood irrigation for lawns when I went to college. |
Interesting post, Melanie. I need to think more about this topic. I think the San Diego Zoo has green toilets. You know, yankee ingenuity is going to make America a leader in conservation. I believe it. But I disagree with you, Melanie, on the question “is it OK for someone to ask in public prayer. . .” It’s scary to pray in public. I also think it’s not right to decide how others should pray. We can’t make a blanket judgment on the content of someone’s prayer–how do we know they’re not doing their best, in the first place, to conserve. I don’t know, I just think each person gets to pray how they want. I’m complacent on the issue of conservation, I think stewardship is a good word, but the Lord says the earth “has enough and to spare.” Sometimes people can be sort of right, but wrong because whatever issue they’re fighting about isn’t near as important as the contention they raise while they’re fighting it. Like Al Gore. Satan loves us infighting. Conservation, gay marriage, women and the priesthood, abortion rights they make us all mad at each other as we try to prove our point and forget all about the first and second great commandments. |
When you say it that way I’m totally wrong. But I think many of us have had an opportunity to listen to a prayer that makes you cringe. that’s part of the deal when you’re lds. it’s also the reason i said “I don’t know if it’s appropriate” because at this time, we have the thing that is being asked for, we are just not using it wisely. we don’t conserve that which the lord has blessed us with instead, we waste without consideration. (myself included. I conserve but I could do better) |
mfranti, |
ellsworth, it’s not just in the west, many parts of the south are suffering really bad right (http://drought.unl.edu/dm/monitor.html
because? |
are my comments getting caught in moderation? |
I just remembered how I hate long prayers. Now that, that should be a commandment. Keep your public prayers short. |
I am interested in the concept that the “earth has enough and to spare.” I think this is wrong. Is there enough oil for example – likely not, we will run out. Is there enough fresh water? not when we waste it. We absolutely must conserve if we are going to cram more people on the planet without destroying it. |
mfranti – you were caught in the filter along with Viagra, Paris Hilton, and other unsavory things… I rescued you, hopefully you are not too tarnished :) |
Those of us in the South should be consuming as if we live in a desert state. Here in Georgia the water situation is starting to get scary. |
so yeah… #5 shows a graphic of what’s going on in clairs part of the country. btw, this is a global issue. |
devyns…you’re my hero. i’m all shiny and clean and i got a new name too it seems. and thanks for bringing up the “earth has enough and to spare.†this just doesn’t makes sense to me. 200 years ago, there might have been enough for everyone on earth but ummm…if I’m not mistaken, there’s a few more people on the planet these days. |
Don’t knock viagra. Devyn, if we run out of oil, we will find another source of energy. I find endless solutions, not that word that police use when they want to catch a convict. For instance, I believe there are geniuses out there figuring out how to take salt out of seawater, as we speak. How to get and save water from clouds. Windmills rock. Solar power. Geothermal. But I didn’t say that saying, you guys, God did. As I recall. Some of you guys who are scriptural geniuses, find it, will you? I have to clean up my new pantry today or Bill’s going to smack me around a little. |
there’s something funny about the first and last sentences of your post…can’t put my finger on it. |
:) I’m a lucky woman. |
mfranti (5), I know the drought is hitting the South; I’m on the border of the South and the mid-Atlantic, and we have gone weeks at a time without rain this summer. One of the next projects at my house will be a rainwater collection system. |
As for the substance of your post, you are right; people in desert states should not consume as if they are in the Pacific Northwest or the South. I disagree. I think everyone should practice water conservation, whether you live in Utah, or Washington DC. The DC area was in a “drought” up until last week. Except for two storms, we were in a “drought” last year too. Growing up in Utah, we had water rights, so we watered our lawn with irrigation water. We also watered our alfalfa field with irrigation water too. Personally, if I move back, I’d like to live in a house thats zoned where I can have a yard that is mostly indigenous plants. In Utah, there’s either too much or too little water each year. I grew up next to a river that the community didn’t touch almost all the water from because of archaic state water laws, which bites when you’re in a major drought. I think irrigation practices need to change also (for example, the imperial valley) throughout the nation, I believe we need to change our water consumption overall. Some states are better than others, but overall we could all do better. |
We’ve had a drought for, I think, eight years now. We ration water in the summer. We live at the base of beautiful mountains, but it gets so dry we’re just waiting for the entire mountain to go up in flames. But again, I say, it will work out. And not to sound callous, but what’s the worst that can happen? We die? We go to God. I guess suffering could be worse, or watching your kids suffer. |
agb, do you take that approach to money, food, housing, ect? or do you plan, work, save, care, tend? |
We should all take a moment to invest in a composting toilet or two. That way, we can save the environment while sitting on the throne. |
Anne #13 – I love Viagra and all other drugs – they keep my company in business. I agree that when we run out of oil we will find another source. Key issue is will we do so in time? We already know how to take salt out of saltwater – they have several plants that do that in the Gulf Countries. The issue is that we could conserve today and keep some of these things from occurring. Shouldn’t a good steward use things in moderation and conserve when possible? That makes more sense to me than a gluttonous approach. If I asked someone to watch my house for awhile, I would prefer they exercise restraint rather than go hogwild… |
I like all drugs. I especially love that combination of verced and horse anistetic (however you spell it) that the dentist gave me when they did my implants. I remember nothing, but they said I kept saying, “I need more drugs.” |
Most of the wasted water in the intermountain west actually has nothing to do with overwatered lawns, golf courses, or household use. The biggest culprit of water waste out here is agriculture – hands-down. We dump tons of water on worthless alfalfa production out here in what is basically welfare for western farmers. The crops are pretty-much worthless, the use of the land is inefficient and profitless. But the federal government continues to shell out billions on dollars in new dams, pipelines and irrigation projects. And the farmers out here don’t even generate enough of a profit to give back to the economy what they are consuming. The whole thing has no societal benefit except to allow western farmers the illusion that they are actually making an honest living sponging off the federal government. That’s where the vast majority of the West’s water is going. |
Seth, many of those ranchers you are railing on work two jobs to support the family ranch and the family. Many have already given up the family farm. I’ll cite facts to you all day, but don’t attack something you obviously don’t know the history and facts about. As far as irrigation goes, the major water sheds in the Uintas have been diverted to the Wasatch Front. My grandfathers spent their Saturdays when they weren’t working antiquated equipment on the family ranch on the granddaddy lakes. For what now? To by and large give water to the Wasatch Front. Just in my life time many, many of the farms on the wasatch front and even in Kamas Valley, where my family is from, has turned into developments. The main watershed where I grew up is the water and electricity for Vegas and Southern California. We don’t touch it. Instead, we get water from Ashley Creek which flows into a couple of reservoirs which supplies the town and most of the county with water. Water has caused more battles on the west than anything else (except for maybe cattle and sheep over in “BrokeBack” Country). Annegb-Yup, you all in the middle of another drought year. Its what paid for my schooling (I’m a former firefighter). |
seth, the same could be said for many farmers in the midwest. you seem troubled by my example of watered lawns(i use that because it’s the most obvious to those of us that live in the city) but i’m really talking about about conservation. I think devyn said it best. Shouldn’t a good steward use things in moderation and conserve when possible? Sherpa used excellent examples of how water is diverted in UT,(and other states) to feed the growing need for water in the larger states. I don’t know about most folks, but the idea of sending precious water to CA because they will pay for it is disturbing. Idahospud– Can you come and share your story about the water woes you guys almost had? |
geeeezzz… you would think by now that I know how to use the blockquote thing on this site. |
The implication here is that people are not doing what they can as individuals. SOME people aren’t. Blanket judgments against western farmers are just not fair. |
Amen. Great post mfranti. Just because lawns aren’t the largest part of the problem doesn’t mean we can ignore it. Two things always drive me nuts, probably because I see it so often, watering lawns during the day and watering lawns while it’s raining. Timers are so cheap now, there really isn’t an excuse to water while the sun is out. I refuse to water my lawn every day so it will be bright green. Because of where I live I have to have a lawn and I have to keep it alive, but that’s it. Some of my neighbors water their lawn so often you can leave an impression in the soil when you walk across it. In our last ward I talked to the bishop about the sprinkling system at the chapel. It was going off every other day, during the day, and because nobody took the time to check, some of the sprinklers were spraying in the street. He knew who to talk to and it was fixed the next week. In my opinion church and government building should set an example in this area. This may be something small, but it’s something we can easily control. |
jj, are you sure you can’t do other things with your front yard? water wise plants mixed with a little buffalo grass? |
Unfortunately no. We use some water-wise plants in our landscaping, but the covenants of the subdivision actually require a percentage of lawn. Like most subdivisions I’ve lived in, these rules seem to become relaxed over time, so I fully expect to be able to do whatever I want within five years. The other problem is convincing my wife, she loves the lawn. If you drive through our neighborhood, you’d recognize my house pretty quickly though, my twice a week watering makes my lawn stand out by just being green instead of the almost neon green other lawns around here have with daily watering and lots of chemicals. |
..and ours is the one with the brown lawn with a little green mixed in for courtesy. |
Hmmm, do you also have a father and mother that would stay up until 1 a.m on watering nights just so they wouldn’t have their sprinklers going during the day? Also, people don’t seem to realize, but if you water your lawn less it adapts and seems to stay green later in the year after secondary water has been turned off (at least in Utah). |
oh the guilt…. I live in tucson az where no one in their right mind should try to have grass, and I have grass. just a little tiny patch, a little over 12 square feet. I felt some guilt putting it in. Occasionally (like now, reading this post) I feel a tiny bit of remorse at the audacity of my water use in the desert… then again, hundreds of native desert trees were raised to make way for this nice little suburb that is now filled with sub-prime borrowers. However, most of them don’t have grass. just me. I do turn off the water when I brush my teeth, if that counts for anything. |
If you let your lawn grow longer and water smarter, you only have to water once a week. But more and more people here are opting for small lawns, or none at all, or going for field grass which needs little water. We are seeing a lot of rock arrangements which look very nice. We have a half acre, lawn front and back. Trees. We water once a week. |
I went through a phase where I tried to reuse all my grey water. Had buckets in all my sinks to catch water for all the many times we turn on the tap just to rinse stuff off, trying to find a pan big enough to stand in while taking a shower, trying to figure out a way to siphon the water out of my tub after a bath etc… it didn’t last very long. if I could make my own changes to homebuilding in Tucson it would be to have all the houses built with solar energy panels, and piped for reusing grey water. |
I think people will get on board with little need for persuasion as soon as cost-effective alternatives are presented. Some people are still just trying to survive, pay their bills, and feed their kids. The environment is the last thing on their mind. Others, like Bill and I, are starting to do small things to conserve and we take good care of our little part of the land. The problem I have with this conversation, Melanie, is that you are truly dedicated. But all those rich people, including Al Gore, they live in huge homes, drive multiple cars, and have lawns the size of football fields. I mean, can we discuss swimming pools? The “little people” of the world can’t accomplish anything until those who influence the government practice what they preach. |
“I think more people will get on board… as soon as cost-effective alternatives are presented.” hmmmm… true… and I am also thinking more effective alternatives will be presented at affordable costs when more people start calling loudly for change |
it’s not what you can do IF you have money, it’s what you can do with what you already have. mindset is a huge part of what I’m talking about. I didn’t recommend going out and changing your plumbing system to reuse graywater I suggested installing low flow toilets and letting your grass go brown during normal dormancy periods. I don’t care that Al Gore drives multiple cars, I care that Al Gore is DOING something–something that I couldn’t do on my meager income. |
I’ve been thinking about what you said about the Al Gore’s of the world who talk about environmentalism but have large homes and big lawns, etc… I remember during the bush/kerry election when the bush camp jeered at the kerry camp cuz they all drove SUV’s. honestly, I dont know what kind of house Al Gore lives in, but it wouldn’t surprise me to find a lawn as big as a football field and a swimming pool (and even an SUV). Hypocritical? Sure. But for me that doesn’t mean throwing away the whole idea of environmentalism. my biggest hero’s in this movement live very simply… and NEVER make headlines. But I am still glad that ‘rich’ people are behind this too with the resources to get information out. And I am a hypocrite too with my lawn and my ’98 pathfinder and my dependence on zip-lock baggies |
make that “my biggest heros in this movement…” |
I’m not throwing away the idea, but those who are yelling the loudest and throwing the most stones, ie Al Gore, are hypocrites. Of course, there are rich, energy-guzzling hypocrites on both sides of that aisle. Ed Begley, I think that’s his name, for instance, that guy does practice what he preaches. I’d like to see the media do a story on how Al Gore lives versus what he says. |
oh yeah…al gores lawn. doesn’t he live in tennessee? I bet he doesn’t have to water that very much. My in laws live in Wisconsin and they have green grass but they never water. G. everyone in the United States is a hypocrite. It’s not our fault, we were born here. We can hide out in a cabin in the North Woods or we can have a mindset of conservation and be productive citizens that consume less. |
The Al Gore example is just tu quo quo. Its shabby, cheap, and in my perfect world, you’d never see it used ever (except in jest)….oddly enough, you see it all the time. ;) |
tu quoque I mean. |
Everyone who has ever lived except for Jesus Christ at one point is a hypocrite at one point of their life. Finding a hypocrital actions in others, especially in someone you disagree with politically is the easiest, cheapest, and lamest form of political attack there is. |
agb, Do you practice what you preach–everything? if you do, than you are a much better person than I. We all believe in acting a certain way (lds standards) but how many of us actually obey all of the commandments? How many of us do some and don’t do others because, well…we are imperfect. |
sherpa, right on. I hate that example, but when you don’t like what the messenger has to say, you try to kill him’ where have I heard this before? |
I didn’t win the Nobel Prize for espousing my beliefs. As much as possible, though, yes, I do. |
I should clarify. You didn’t make me feel bad,Melanie, more irritated. The assumption is that if we’re not picketing or worried sick, we’re not acting. “We” being the plebian public. It’s not only you, Melanie, it’s those “Barbra Streisands” of the world who just think they’re smarter, better, than the rest of us, and we just don’t get it. The implication is that only liberals and maveriks care about our world. There’s such a self-righteousness to the assumption that most of us aren’t doing anything because the environment isn’t first on our list of priorities. Although I do the same thing, when I’m on a bandwagon. Drives Bill crazy. There has to be a balance and a time for everything. There are many important causes in the world, not just the environment. And most of us have only two hands and many many responsibilities. And while I’m often criticized for my blase attitude, it could also be called faith. I truly believe that God is in charge of the world. And this life is only for a moment, it will all work out and in the end if we argue to the extent that we forget to love each other, what have we gained? Basically, I think you’re preaching to the choir. We’re still friends :) You should’ve been on the bloggernacle when I threatened to smack DKL up the side of the head. |
“I truly believe that God is in charge of the world…” could it be possible to believe that and still work hard for change? sort of a faith with out works thing? I understand the underlying feeling of what you are saying, and that part about loving more and arguing less is good and important… but that idea that God will make everything work out and all we have to do is be nice and not make waves paves the way for all sorts of horrible things to happen by people not so scrupulous. |
The difference between Mr. Gore and annegb is that annegb’s hypocrisy is most likely not her cause célèbre. Yes, we are all hypocrites. No, we all don’t show that hypocrisy in our life’s passion and life’s work. I don’t celebrate Al Gore’s hypocrisy like some extreme right wingers, but it does bring up questions in my mind. |
Kyle, many of us on this site are LDS. Many of us would claim that the gospel is our life’s work and passion. I would. Do I obey every rule of the gospel? No. Do I sin? Does me committing a sin make it less true? Hypocrisy in the case of Al Gore to dismiss his cause is nothing more than tu quoque. |
It’s not about indiscression. It’s closer to someone telling others they should live a Mormon lifestyle, but not doing so themselves, a missionary who weekly particpates in drunken orgies. People forgive little slips. No one is taking exception that Gore hadn’t finished changing out all the incandecent bulbs in his house yet. They’re not mocking him because he couldn’t find recycled toilet paper at the grocery store. They mock him because he’s an evangelist for a lifestyle he doesn’t live himself. |
Here is an interesting tidbit on nuclear power as it relates to water supplies: |
“They mock him because he’s an evangelist for a lifestyle he doesn’t live himself.” the question here is about whether that is a lifestyle YOU think is worthwhile. I thought that is what is being discussed in this thread, not the particulars of Al Gore’s homestead. |
This applies to many different areas of our lives. |
Here’s how the two examples (the missionary, and Al Gore are tu quoque) First, a drunken orgy as a missionary isn’t the same magnitude of sin as building a swimming pool or having lights on your tennis court. However, using your examples, its much easier to dissmiss something you disagree with when you see someone not acting like they say you should. In that aspect the two examples you gave are very much the same and they are both tu quoque examples. A missionary going out on a drunken orgy doesn’t negate the gospel, it still doesn’t make the gospel any less true. Not at all. As much as it makes the blood of the other missionaries boil as much as it give many, many people who may have been at the drunken orgy more ammunition to cry against the church and say mormon missionaries say one thing and live another, it still doesn’t make the gospel less true.It just gives people who disagree with the drunken missionary’s message ampt ammo to mock him. |
I know what tu quoque means. I got caught up in a thread jack (46) defending annegb’s mild hypocrisies, even though she doesn’t need any help. I also have a dislike for weak analogies, which perpetuated my poor contribution to the discussion. You and “G†are, of course, correct that Mr. Gore’s actions don’t matter when discussing the issues at hand. |
No, Al Gore doesn’t get a pass on this. Nor do any of his peers, all the rich people of the US who live in huge mansions with huge swimming pools, with huge green lawns, and driving huge cars guzzling fuel. If they all downsized their lives and only consumed the resources they truly need, the rest of us wouldn’t need to hear their preaching about the environment. |
I don’t give Al Gore a pass on his hypocrisy, annegb. I think he’s an alarmist who uses environmental issues for personal gain. He has little credibility with me. I just agree that his words and actions are irrelevant to what is or isn’t true. |
I wasn’t directing my post directly toward you, Kyle, it was to the world in general. You know, I used to be a huge Al Gore fan, a lot because I love his wife–she’s so real and honest. And I could honestly have voted for him or Bush in that election. In my mind, they were equally desirable. I ended up voting for Bush as a protest against Clinton’s immorality, but I thought Gore behaved badly after the election. I was quite disgusted. I also thought Bill Clinton was great. I sort of suck at judging people. |
Sorry, I don’t understand, can you help me, almost every day I see on my website |
I’m not going to touch that with a ten foot pole. |
Hi! Nice site! |
