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Don’t worry. The 70 was probably from Utah, where they do everything right (by definition). |
Well, we’d know for sure, if only Devyn would tell us which 70 it was . . . |
devyn, go to sleep! |
Maybe Elder Lynn Mickelsen? He did the same in a ward he visited on my mission. Plus also got stuck into the Stake President for sitting with his wife and kids and not on the stand as he should. He then made everyone wait until the poor man got up and walked to the stand to take his callings rightful place. Yet this is what seventies have to do in church. Its what the first presidency assigns them with. Some are sweet about it, like elder Jenses and they end up in a permanent exec role in Salt Lake while the non-nonsense SOB’s get into area presidencies and assigned all over the globe. Another guy like that one is Elder Holland -even though his talks in conference suggest otherwise. What we are missing from this story is that everyone could’ve said “yes sir” and taken steps to change things. I disagree that he didn’t have enough context to see the mistakes. He just sat and opened his eyes! But this: “chastise the ward for being too noisy and irreverant before the meeting started” is just a lost cause in mormondom. |
We had a similar experience in a suburban Atlanta ward about 5 years ago. It was the Sunday before the 4th of July, or maybe it was the 4th. At the absolute last minute before sacrament meeting a GA walks in with the mission president and takes over the sacrament meeting. Like Devyn’s ward, the MP did a good job and unlike Devyn’s ward the GA did not lecture the ward but gave a bland “God Bless the USA” talk. I think in the last couple of years or so, in the US at least, the area presidencies were recalled and relocated to Utah. The relocation may have been, in part, because of stunts like what DevynS describes and what we experienced in Atlanta. |
70s can be cranky and eccentric sometimes. I saw this a few times in my mission. I still felt they were inspired – though the particular style by which the inspiration was communicated had quite a bit to do with the GA’s personality. I remember once a Seventy spoke to us and said that he had an effective method for contacting educated professionals. He then told us he had shared this method with a couple of missions and they had not applied it – so he _wasn’t_ going to share the method with our mission. I was kind of astonished at the logic (or the lack thereof) with this presentation. Afterwards I was able to go up and speak with him and learn the missionary approach he was talking about. |
rc “I think in the last couple of years or so, in the US at least, the area presidencies were recalled and relocated to Utah. The relocation may have been, in part, because of stunts like what DevynS describes and what we experienced in Atlanta.” Certain it has to do with the modern communications abilities of the church & to allow greater interaction between stake presidents and apostles. We’re told that eventually all area presidencies will go but as per usual they do US & Canada first, then rest of the world which for the Salt Lake is all backwards and colonial. |
URGENT! Just realized from #5 : “GA cornered the Bishopric on the stand and ordered the bishop to shave his mustache, the second counselor to shave his goatee and the first counselor to stop wearing blue shirts” More examples of the UNWRITTEN RULES in church for DKL to analyze!! Are these in the provocation.net handbook? |
About ten years ago right before my second son’s missionary “farewell” a member of the 70 walked into the chapel unannounced. His daughter lives in our ward. He visited with her for just a few minutes (I think she was surprised to see him). Our bishop got up and went down and introduced himself to the GA and asked how he’d like the meeting conducted. The GA told him to go ahead as planned and if there were a few minutes left at the end of the program, he would bear his testimony. We had a wonderful program and then he stood and bore a wonderful, simple testimony of the gospel. He did not dominate the meeting, but it was clear who was in charge the minute he walked in the door. If he had any instructions or comments for the bishopric he held them for later. I think he just had a rare free Sunday and drove over to visit family and shared sacrament meeting with us. One other incident. Another 70 married a local and would drop in every two or three years. He always sat with his wife in the congregaton with her family. He’s since passed away, but he bore his authority easily and without a need to be “on”. Of course, this was years ago and I believe that 70s are instructed to be on the stand. |
Carlos, you seem to be laboring under the misimpression that I’m somehow denying that people believe that there are unwritten rules. I’m actually asserting that those who believe that there are unwritten rules are guilty of apostasy. And I think that I’ve been pretty clear about the fact that I hold this to be true no matter what the rank of the person advancing the alleged unwritten rule. Given this, your suggestion that I analyze it strikes me is puzzling. But, if your question about whether these are more examples of UNWRITTEN RULES amounts to nothing more than an enquiry into whether these constitute more examples of apostasy on the part of some member, then the answer is, of course, yes. Someone who berates new converts for how inadequately they measure up against idle tradition isn’t so very far from someone who thanks God that he’s better than the unwashed masses. (Get that man a rameumpton!) Devyn, the lesson that should be taken away from your story is that the person conducting sacrament meeting shouldn’t turn time over to a stranger (no matter what the rank) unless he knows what the stranger will say, and he should hold him to it. Since the bishop (and by delegation, the counselors when the bishop is away) are responsible for the Sacrament program, whether he presides or not, you’d have had every right to tell that 70 (Richard Klein, perhaps?) to go shit in his hat. Moreover, don’t you have the obligation to correct false doctrine that is taught over the pulpit? Think of it this way: If they don’t like it, they can release you. If they really, really don’t like it, they can ex you, and then you’ll save a bundle on tithing! Anyway, I’d like to know the name of the guy. Keeping him anonymous only serves to obscure accountability. |
What is the status of Seventy anyway? Are they prophets? Is their word official doctrine? What are you supposed to make of them. |
Lynn Mickelsen is actually one of my favorites. I had two interactions with him on my mission that, taken together, combined to show me that the Lord actually had taken notice of me and was mindful of my prayers. |
Seth R, Seventies are general authorities, except for the area authority seventies. Area authority seventies can do everything that general authority seventies can do, except restore blessings after excommunication. Best I know, all the seventies are High Priests, and they have been since the mid-20th century, because the prophet (David McKay, I believe) at the time thought it odd that seventies should preside over high priests. This, of course, poses a problem to the recent attempt to water down the notion of presiding when it comes to discussing marriage as a partnership between man and wife, since it clearly indication that presiding persons are thought of as holding a superior rank to those they presides over. |
DKL - You’re right that in 1961 the First Council of the Seventy were given the authority of High Priests in the Church so that they would have the authority to organize stakes and wards, but a Seventy is still an office within the Melchizedek Priesthood. Since 1986 it has been reserved for general authorities (including area authorities) of the Church. |
DKL, (although this is somewhat tedious) I do understand what you claim. Thats where I see a problem because leaders follow some unwritten rule of some sort all the time. The apostasy is in not following those leaders when they ask as to follow an ‘unwritten law’ such as don’t use blue shirts in sacrament or shave you mow… Also this: “…away from your story is that the person conducting sacrament meeting shouldn’t turn time over to a stranger (no matter what the rank)…” is just plain wrong. Whenever a GA or Stake Presidency member (not mission president) walks into your meeting thats it…they preside and tell you what to do. If you don’t accept them, they you’re in apostasy. That simple. You are right though on the seventies as high priest since McKay. All GA’s are still high priests to preside in church as per D&C I don’t think you’re right though in #13, Area authorities are general authorities within a set boundary. But restorations of blessings is per assignment from 1st presidency, and apostles are asked first if they are in the area, then they go down the line. |
queuno #12 Very true. The guy is good. I should have added that. He would come down with a tone of bricks on leaders, but he’s talks and general ministry where always exemplary. |
I have had two experiences in meeting a GA. Both are related to my mission. The first was when Elder Henry B. Eyring (then a Seventy) came to my Stake in California for our Stake Conference. This was before my mission. He brought the Spirit with him. He gave a talk that wasn’t on missionary work. I forget the topic, but it didn’t matter. He had the Spirit with him, and in the middle of his talk, I turned to my friend and I said, “I’m going to put my papers in right now!” I felt so excited about going on a mission. I felt an urgency about it. I knew I had to go, now. Two months later, I received my call. A month after that I entered the MTC, and a month later, I was in Romania. The other experience was in Romania. Elder Neuenschwander (I think I spelled his name right) presided over Eastern Europe. He came to Romania for a Mission Conference. At the time I was in Timisoara (a city on the west, where the 1989 revolution caught fire). I talked with him for a little bit and I told him I was from Romania and I wanted to serve in my home town of Medias (in the middle of the country) before my mission was up (Medias, a small town was not going to be opened up anytime soon). He laughed and said, “Only if it snows in the next three days.” The reason he said that was because it was June and 90 degrees outside. Funny thing is that two days later, a powerful storm came into Timisoara, one so strong that it cooled the place down. Unfortunately it did not snow, but it came really close. Later, I met Elder Neuenschwander at BYU and I related to him this event. He laughed, but a bit nervously. I think he realized too that you have to be careful what you ask for with the Lord. |
Devyn, your experience saddens me. It’s really disappointing that a seventy would have such a poor understanding of what it means to persuade people to be better, and such a poor understanding of what better means in the first place. |
Dan (17), One of the Neuenschwander boys was in my MTC district; I love that family. One of my leaders in my mission once told us about the evils of caffeine, and he said that general authorities never allow caffeinated beverages to enter their homes under any circumstances. After my mission, I had lunch with the Neuenschwanders in between sessions of a general conference, and the table had a couple of 2-liters of coke on it, a situation that would cause much distress and cognitive dissonance among many members of the Church if it were widely known (I should clarify that one of Elder N.’s sons brought the coke). |
DKL #13, AA70’s can restore blessings when authorized and directed to do so by the 1st Pres. I was present when a friend of mine had his blessings restored by an AA70. My Stake President also mentioned that he could also be authorized to restore blessings by the 1st Pres. (I have a mtg w/him Wednesday and will confirm this is true). Btw, what kind of hat would a 70 be authorized to shit in? I would hope it would be a nice hat and not just something purchased at DI. Is there a written or unwritten rule to provide guidance on the subject? /end minor threadjack |
re: 17 Once on mission there was a misunderstanding for Sunday lunch at the mission home when a GA was visiting. Consequently, there were too many people and not enough prepared food. The visiting GA, who shall remain nameless but whose name I do remember, looked at my companion and I and asked “Is there a KFC nearby?” There was and that is where my companion and I ate our Sunday lunch. (I don’t recall if we removed our nametags before entering the KFC, but I probably didn’t.) The moral of the story, I suppose, is that not all GAs are uptight and focused on trivial, stupid things like white shirts and goatees. I have not had many interactions with GAs, but the ones with whom I’ve dealt I have found to be outstanding and sensible men with very smart wives, save for the one I described at number 5 above. (Indeed, it would be fair to say the GAs whom I have known married way above them.) |
Thanks for the comments all. Yes, he is from Utah, but not Elder Mickelsen. rc and Carlos – sorry you had that experience as well. Personally, I think that is what you get when you call successful businessmen who spent their whole lives in Utah. I did have experiences (positive) with GAs while a missionary, particularly with Elder Hansen and Elder Busche. DKL – If it were to happen today, I would probably tell him to “shit in his hat”. I was young at the time and was a little awed that a 70 showed up. I could reveal his name – he is still in the 70 today… |
My favorite GA experience on my mission involved Elder Busche. I was an assistant driving him in the mission van when an Ambulance was coming up behind us. This was in NYC where you don’t necessarily go out of your way when an emergency vehicle is coming. I pulled over but kept driving. He yelled at me for not pulling over and when I replied that is how we do it in NYC, he said “that is not how YOU do it in NYC”. We then had a fun conversation about NYC and the unique driving habits of humans. He was hilarious. |
Carlos: Thats where I see a problem because leaders follow some unwritten rule of some sort all the time. The apostasy is in not following those leaders when they ask as to follow an ‘unwritten law’ such as don’t use blue shirts in sacrament or shave you mow. LOL. Wrong again, Carlos. The only way that all leaders follow some sort of unwritten rule is if we define the term “unwritten rule” to describe all systematic parts of personal behavior. The idea is actually that there are unwritten rules that govern the church. You should give up now, Carlos. There’s really no way for you to win this argument. |
“…. is if we define the term “unwritten rule” to describe all systematic parts of personal behavior.” That’s your personal rule -made up by DKL or Kirt. There is no need to define what your leaders ask you to do, like when a GA tells you to shave because you are in the bishopric. You should just DO IT. Both GAs and stake leaders will repeat this rule, becoming another ‘unwritten rule’ in church. (Philosophical principals just can’t explain everything.) And yes I should give this up, it’s become both tedious and pointless. But I’d hate to see you as my bishop one day; you’ll be fighting your stake leaders every week….good luck to ya! By the way ‘behavior’ is behaviour in the King’s English!!! |
#23: |
Brian D, that’s a good question about what type of hat is suitable for a GA to shit in. Unfortunately, it’s above my current pay-grade, so I don’t know the answer. But your question did prompt me to think of a great title for a kid’s book: He Shat in the Hat. Carlos: By the way ‘behavior’ is behaviour in the King’s English!!! Haven’t you read the Book of Mormon? The land where I live is a King-free zone by divine decree. Carlos: There is no need to define what your leaders ask you to do, like when a GA tells you to shave because you are in the bishopric. You should just DO IT. Both GAs and stake leaders will repeat this rule, becoming another ‘unwritten rule’ in church. That’s just nutty. And those who participate in such verbal chain-letters of command are, indeed, guilty of apostasy. Carlos: (Philosophical principals just can’t explain everything.) What does explanation have to do with this? We’re talking about verbal instructions that can easily be communicated in writing — not alleged esoteric spiritual principles that elude expression in everyday language. |
Carlos: But I’d hate to see you as my bishop one day… I do believe that’s the nicest thing that anyone’s ever said to me. And, rest assured, we’re in total agreement. I’d really hate to be a bishop, or even in a bishopric. If God is kind, he’ll let me die an elder. |
I attended a conference organizing a new stake in Brazil. A member of the presidency of the Seventy was there. The choir had performed in formal choir robes. The Seventy, very kindly said, “I appreciate the speakers who have spoken and the lovely music that has been sung. The choir looks very nice in the choir robes, but in our Church the choirs don’t have unforms and should perform in the normal sunday dress – white shirts and ties for the men and modest dresses for the women.” He then proceeded with his talk. |
BTW – I think we need a separate thread where DKL and Carlos can duke it out and no one else has to watch, so that they don’t have to keep dragging their same argument onto other threads. |
TO All; Funny thread here. Regardless of what a GA, Area Authority says of does that might offend or appear to be tactless, The Church is what it is… True. Some apparent “tactless” acts by GAs can sometimes be beneficial… I have an in-law that was hosting a GA some years ago in a Stake Conference. The in-law offered a lengthy, (beyond lengthy) prayer to open the meeting. The GA mentioned that he was changing the talk that he had prepared and spoke about “prayer” and how it didn’t need to be lengthy or elaborate… My in-law didn’t take offence but did take a message home…:-) Elder Gene Cook is one of the authorities that is adamate about no facial hair. He was one of the Authorities over my mission. In my dealings with him and subsequent talks I’ve heard from him, he is a wonderful man. I don’t pattern my facial hair after his suggestions but I love him nonetheless. I witnessed Elder Bateman gently ask a newly called Bishop to shave his beard. The Bishop, a friend of mine, didn’t take offense. One of the great examples of not being too stiff is from David O. McKay, one of the most loving men to ever lead the Church. “During intermission at a theatrical presentation, his host offered to get refreshments: “His hearing wasn’t very good, and I got right down in front of him and I said, “President McKay, what would you like to drink? All of our cups say Coca Cola on them because of our arrangement with Coca Cola Bottling, but we have root beer and we have orange and we have Seven-Up. What would you like to drink?” And he said, “I don’t care what it says on the cup, as long as there is a Coke in the cup.” McKay’s point was simple and refreshing: Don’t get hung up on the letter of the law to the point where you squeeze all of the spirit out of life.” “David O. McKay and The Rise of Modern Mormonism” by Gregory A. Prince & Wm. Robert Wright. We should all be in this together…. Do our best and let the “chips fall where they may”… |
#20: Why, the kind of hat that can hold two seerstones, while being pulled up around the face to exclude exterior lighting sources, of course! |
Correction–that should only be a single seerstone. |
Carlos- I don’t agree with this. I think that it is perfectly acceptable to question a GA- or any leader for that matter-, especially in relatively trivial matters such as facial hair and colored shirts (note the use of the word relatively). I had my stake president interview to go on my mission and had shaved my head bald two days before. My stake president was known for holding prospective elders back a few months to let them repent and try and gain a stronger testimony. Needless to say, I was nervous as it was highly possible I would be seen standing in need of both because of my rebelious lack of hair. Luckily, this stake president was a man who could discern very well and look into the heart because all he said was, “for your sake, I hope it grows out.” And off I went. I think a more discerning and more spiritually acute person would not have berated a ward so, as Devyn recanted, demanding perfection without giving the time necessary to understand what level the ward is on in the first place. I agree with DKL that this is a fine example of unwritten rules exercised by a thoughtless individual. Dress and Grooming are only a reflection of one’s heart/testimony, not a badge of them. And they are most definitely not a reliable measure of sin. In the case of Devyn’s story, it is important to note that GAs are far from perfect and sometimes lack understanding of D&C 121. Personally, I think his behavior warrants some poop in his hat. My mission president was often guilty of this all-business mentality. When GAs would come to visit, it was always a different story, though. In church matters warranting some level of judgment, I like to refer to Joseph Smith’s wise quote: “Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive. . . . God does not look on sin with [the least degree of] allowance, but . . . the nearer we get to our heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs.” It’s interesting to see that our Leaders have different abilities in different situations. I don’t think each leader can perform to our spiritual expectations in every situation. Some might just stink at the “pop-in to sacrament meetings”, while they rock in General Conference. So, when our leaders screw up in our eyes, it is on us to look on them with compassion…want to take them upon our shoulders, etc. |
After a particularly trying Sunday my mission president (now an AA70) called together the office staff and said, “Elders, order pizza.” And there was much rejoicing. |
Nasamomdele (34), You have touched on the most important point here- even general authorities are in need of mercy and forgiveness, whether they know it or not. The unfortunate thing is, someone’s title can give them the ability to leave a wider trail of disappointment when they screw up. But for us, that’s only an opportunity to deepen our charity. I love that Joseph Smith quote; it’s fitting that it came from one of the most human and mistake-prone of our prophets. |
I actually experienced something just the opposite which I found quite humorous. A visiting GA and our MP joined our zone conference. At the conference, he interpreted a portion the missionary handbook, relaxing one of the mission rules. One of the missionaries told him he was wrong and tried to argue for the much more strict interpretation. That was the funny part. A little more ominous is that the seventy refused to argue, but told him that some souls would not hear the gospel if we followed the stricter interpretation. |
SCN: Regardless of what a GA, Area Authority says of does that might offend or appear to be tactless, The Church is what it is… True. Unquestionably. That’s got to be the working assumption for anyone to constructively participate in this discussion. |
That Joseph Smith quote (provided in comment #34) is really beautiful and quite comforting. |
danithew,
Yep. Note that Joseph Smith said God was more liberal. |
40 – that would be classicaly liberal, not much like the current batch of “liberals”. I also met Elder Brough on my mission, where I found that he is one of the most caring individuals that I’ve ever met. I was highly impressed with him. I got to meet Elder Haight, too, a few years before he past away. His hometown was in my mission, so we were told many stories by regular members about him. One was that he attended a stake conference where he had requested for one of the meetings not to have any unruly children. A young couple came with their baby that started crying while Elder Haight was speaking, and he asked them from the stand to take the baby out into the foyer. Many older members were really offended by that, but the couple themselves humbly did what he asked them to do, and never really complained afterwards, either. It reminds me of that great story about Joseph Smith hammering Brigham Young over the pulpit, and Brigham stands up afterwords and simply asks, “What do you want me to do?” I think the Lord sometimes has people be rude to us so that we learn to be humble and not as argumentative. |
OK, here’s a funny one. I know a man who served his mission in South America, and went to the MTC in Lima, Peru. The MTC president was fed up with missionaries talking about sports in English so he made a rule: no talking about sports, and he enforced it zealously. The next week, Elder Perry was visiting the mission and stopped of at the MTC to speak to the missionaries. He got there while they were having lunch and walked around the cafeteria getting to know everybody. My friend reports the following conversation: E. Perry: (In customary loud, booming voice) Hello Elder! Where are you from? Missionary: Michigan. E. Perry: Michigan! Are you a Wolverines fan or a Spartans fan? The Big Ten is really interesting this year because. . . . Mission President: (rolls eyes) |
40- Pull out the lightning rod. 41- “Charity suffereth long, is not easily offended”, right? I agree 100%. Paul consistently wrote about the power of suffering for his spiritual welfare. As well, Article of Faith # 13- We hope to be able to endure all things. So, although someone may be rude to us for no reason or horribly so, we need to 1) recognize that they are just as prone to fault as we are, and that in way makes them less of a GA, and 2) chalk that up to “enduring for Christ’s sake”. I think a great trial in life is doing the right thing with ability and authority- will we serve others, or will we use it for our esteem and ambitions. |
Nasamomdele,
DUDE! Joke! Chill! |
Dan, I’m not sure it should be a joke. I think God probably is a liberal (not to say that he would agree with the policies proposed by the liberal party in the US). If our government leaders were omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnicient, I wouldn’t mind living under a command economy… Could the atonement be anything but a “liberal” plan? Sure, we “do all we can do,” but grace shall be sufficient for us if we endure to the end. Put it another way. If there was some government out there with unlimited funds that said, “Everybody work as hard as you can every day, and if you’re ’sincere’ in that work, we’ll give you enough money to live in a mansion with all the resources you and your family need.” We’d probably call that communist utopia. Yet, in analagous terms, that’s pretty much what happens in the attonement. It’s hard for this conservative to admit, but I think God’s a liberal. |
Jota, Personally I believe that God is a liberal, but in this case here, my comment really was meant to be a joke, because I really didn’t want to get into the politics of it. |
All in all, I think clasifying God into one of our lovely partisan definitions is dangerous. BTW, God is independent. No two ways about it. |
“great story about Joseph Smith hammering Brigham Young over the pulpit, and Brigham stands up afterwords and simply asks, “What do you want me to do?” I think the Lord sometimes has people be rude to us so that we learn to be humble and not as argumentative.” This is what I’m talking about. You first simply obey what the leadership ask of you (here a 70) and then you will have those wonderful & uplifting experiences, like what is mentioned in #34 and others. After all weren’t those missionaries all in white shirts and short hair? It “just do it and get on to the important things” kind of way. Not a fascist kind of way. And it all depends on the situation. I love the story from David O McKay’s bio (rise of modern mormonism) where they’re all standing around and not touching a cake because its was washed in wine or baked in wine (or however they say it) until president McKay starts eating a piece. Some woman there pointed out to him that the cake was soaked in wine to which Pt McKay replied: sister, is says not to Drink alcohol but says nothing about Eating it! Maybe in Wards in northern Pakistan all the bishops have beards….it’s not a life saving thing but it is about basic obedience. |
“Yep. Note that Joseph Smith said God was more liberal. May God help you all! |
Dear DKL: “The land where I live is a King-free zone by divine decree.” That’s probably the only intelligent thing you’ve said all month! ………….. I was thinking though, since my blood cools down by the time I wake up, couldn’t there be some type of instant messaging board here? something a mormon geek can set up to run weekends only, maybe? So then you and I can continue to argue this non-stop without others interfering with all these comments? You being a perma blogger could, maybe, help set one up? |
#31 SCN – that is a nice story about President McKay – All that I have heard about him reminds me of President Hinckley – a loving man who did not take himself too seriously. #26 Nick – that is interesting that your MP was openly critical of a 70. That is a rare thing in my experience for too often we are unwilling to say anything negative about a church leader, even when it is justified. Nasamomdele – great quote from JS. I think it is very appropriate here and your thoughts are very true. I too like the part about God being liberal – I agree with Dan that is comforting. If He were a John Bircher, then I would be lost… |
Carlos – good idea, then you and DKL can fight it out all on your own. #41 and #42 – Mark IV and Jacob – thanks for those stories – it is nice to hear positive GA stories as well Jota – Amen – I think you are right. God’s liberality comes from being Omnipotent and Omniscient. Thanks for giving me some things to think about. |
Devyn #51: |
Nick – My MP was open (I was one of his assistants), but drew the line at criticizing GAs – he would occassionally rip on a missionary or local leader though and my comp and I would snicker like we had just heard a dirty secret. Of course, now I am a little more open about criticizing silly things, but I have to remember to praise the good (which sometimes I have a hard time seeing). |
I loved and admired Elder Maxwell. But one time he just absolutely tore my MP a new one publicly over the pulpit at a Stake Conference for poor baptism statistics. Just ripped him to shreds. It was undeserved in my view. My MP sat there with a very awkward smile on his face and just took it; what else could he do? But I have to admit I was quite shocked that Elder Maxwell would publicly humiliate my MP for things that were beyond his control. It was not a Christlike performance by any stretch of the imagination. |
Sorry, Carlos. If I set up some IM system just to fight with you, all the other commenters would feel left out. |
Email works too… |
“all the other commenters would feel left out.” That’s the point. |
This is an interesting post, Devyn. I like reading about how general authorities are people, too. #31 SCN, come on, tell us about your meeting with Brother Benson. I was at a singles conference where Elder Perry spoke and after, sat on the couch visiting with his wife. She was very cute, down to earth and funny. He was caught up counseling one of our group who was sort of mental, then shook other hands and visiting with a group, walked right by his wife and out the door. She laughed and said, “he does that all the time!” And she got up and hurried after him. If any of you guys every drive around with me in the car, you’ll think I’m channeling Elder Busche. Maybe he just has a phobia about other drivers. Also maybe young missionaries are terrible drivers. At any rate, I’m with him there. |
#55 Kevin Barney – that is interesting. Any insights into why that happened? Perhaps he was having a bad day? #48 Carlos – I have to disagree with you that you just do whatever you are told. Blind obedience is stupid obedience in my mind. We absolutely must pray to find out for ourselves. Even if the Prophet says something and I pray about it and don’t get a witness, I am not going to do it – a lame example is two earrings in one ear. I really don’t think God cares, therefore, neither do I despite what the Prophet says. With that said, if I believe he is a prophet and he is inspired to say something (not everything he says is inspired), then I should get a witness it is true. #60 Anne – I sm sure that most of the GAs do that to escape from the “psychos” in the Church who hound them in public. |