28 Comments | leave a comment | RSS 2.0 for this post | trackback |
Thanks for the report, Matt. Your last paragraph suggesting that “Mormons, academically speaking, are growing up” is especially encouraging. |
Thank you, Matt. Your report is interesting, and makes me wish I could have been there. |
Ditto to the thanks expressed above, Matt. |
“John Green described a Pew poll that demonstrated, among other things,….less likely to oppose civil unions than evangelicals. Rubbish! It should read ‘described a skewed poll that….” About the Romney comment, why can’t Mormons just claim to be “Mormon Christians” different to “Catholic Christians” and different to “Evangelical Christians”? Just say we are different due to a ‘Restorationist’ belief hence we will always be different to the ‘Protestants’ or ‘Reformist’ beliefs. ……. “Marci Hamilton raised a furor arguing that Mormon officials in Utah are disinclined to prosecute child abusers both within the church and within its schisms.” This is probably truer than most people think. It’s just the way the church is set up. For me, we as the church should have called the cops ourselves, but the church to avoid a lot of unfavourable publicity prefers not to, to not get involved in criminal problems unless we are called as witnesses or asked to support the member who goes to the cops. There should be an institutional responsibility to report child abuse cases or carnal knowledge cases like this one to avoid greater problems, like what Mis Hamilton claims. But church authorities think differently. |
Thanks for the great report, Matt, and congratulations to our Melissa! But Mormons are more likely to be creationists than Evangelicals? I don’t buy that one… |
Thanks Matt - sounds like a good one. Kevin - Sadly, I am not surprised by the creationist outcome. The number of Mormons I know who believe in evolution is small - most, even educated Mormons don’t believe it, sadly… |
Great summary, Matt. I’d have hoped to go, but had to cancel at the last minute because of issues surrounding work. |
Great summary. The other interesting thing about Beckwith is he tried to answer Daemon Linker’s New Republic article criticizing Mormon theology by expounding Mormon theology. It is nice to see non-Mormons taking it seriously. |
Thanks, all. TT - Beckwith did a little of that here as well, and I think he was dead on. Linker’s declaration that Mormonism is in danger of arbitrary rule because it lacks a conception of natural law seems a baffling misreading to me. |
we as the church should have called the cops ourselves In most states you have a duty, which may well be a felony not to abide, to report it yourselves. You did call the SLC 800 number on that, didn’t you?! |
#10 No, I was instructed specifically not to call the cops. And was told that in my state it wasn’t a crime not to do so. I called the lawyer at the Area Office not the SLC number. |
We had a bishop who got indicted because he failed to report locally. There is a lawyer at the “Area Office”? You can tell I’m out of touch at how some of the area seventies run things. Did they tell you not to follow the handbook and call the 800 number (or has that changed as well)? I obviously don’t know enough these days, but in Texas we had a Romney give a seminar for members of the JRCLS on the duty to report in Texas — which can and will land you in jail for not reporting — to avoid any confusion on the issue. |
Yes, here the church pays to employ a full time lawyer -rather solicitor- who is also a QC, so he knows his stuff. We don’t have that 800 number, that only in US and Canada. |
That 800 number is a joke. I called them when this kid who lived next door went to jail for molesting a bunch of girls in our neighborhood. They told me they couldn’t help me because I wasn’t a bishop. I will go to my grave believing that the church protects these people. I’ve seen it happen too many times. |
And you know, if any of us were suing people, we would have one hell of a class action lawsuit since his dad was the bishop and several people had told him about his son’s actions, plus some of the girls tried to talk to him about it in their baptismal interviews. He called them liars. Although, I think in the long run, his son was the one who was injured, more than the girls. The girls, of course, have emotional scars, but his son is just wasting space on the earth. |
“Kathleen Flake, however, feels we have little to worry about; the equal protection case on gay marriage doesn’t apply to polygamy.” I wonder where her faith for this comes from? Not long after Canada legalized gay marriage, its government authorized several policy research reports, one of which called for the decriminalization of polygamous marriages. It’s not a long jump from decriminalization to legalization. Assuming that marriage is a social construct, any definition of marriage becomes arbitrary. Traditional marriage is arbitrarily limited to two people of different sexes because of tradition. But gay marriage can’t base its arbitrariness on tradition. Therefore, if legalizing gay marriage says that the gender of the two people is irrelevant, why shouldn’t the number of people getting married be irrelevant as well? Legally speaking, gender is (almost) a suspect classification, whereas the number of marriage partners is not. In this way, equal rights is not properly concerned with the question. But discrimination based on religion is also a suspect class, and those who would see polygamy legalized are going to use this as their basis. And because gay marriage will have removed the ‘tradition’ aspect in defense of marriage, only social science and statistical evidence (with all their limitations) can protect us from the return of this ‘barbarism’. |
Matt, thanks for putting this up. I appreciate the overview and wish I could have attended. |
ann: “They told me they couldn’t help me because I wasn’t a bishop. I agree. And although the church is trying to change this, in church it is still up to the Bishop and Bishop only whether or not something gets done about this. Stake presidents get their information from the bishops. I could have rejected those claims because the mother of the girl wasn’t a member and then nothing at all would have being done; although disfellowshipment isn’t much either. |
Matt, what did Phil Barlow say about the church and Republicans? |
dpc: It’s not a long jump from decriminalization to legalization. Actually, it is a very far jump. Decriminalization can mean that it’s legal. Legalization means that we actually embrace it within our legal framework. Legalizing same-sex marriage is easy, because almost all of the law that applies to mixed-sex marriages also applies to same-sex marriages; e.g., divorce law, property settlement, rights of survivorship, etc. Legalizing polygamy would require a legislative and litigative framework to resolve all the legal problems that arise within polygamous families. For example, how do we handle property settlement when 1 of many wives wants a divorce? In the United States right now we have a de facto decriminalization of polygamy. Unless you make a lot of noise about being polygamous or do something illegal in connection with polygamy (like marriages to underaged individuals), nobody is going to bother you. Eventually, de jure decriminalization will make it perfectly legal to marry multiple partners, but real legalization will remain very far off. I don’t think that your legal reasoning is correct. Because there is no legal framework that is being denied to polygamists, there is no issue of equal protection. |
DKL: Without doing a detailed legal analysis of polygamy and its implications with regard to equal protection and due process contained under the Fourteenth amendment, I think that legally and philosophically, it becomes harder to defend a two-person definition of marriage if marriage becomes a purely social construct that is not rooted in our traditional Western paradigm of family. Marriage is a fundamental right and therefore the equal protection clause is implicated. To the extent that a polygamist’s fundamental right to marry is disproportionately burdened by an arbitrary two-person marriage legal standard, the equal protection clause applies. The fact that there needs to be a legislative and litigative framework to be developed would not stop any court from pursuing a given course of action. Desegregation in the South required disruption of aspects of a regional culture and its practices and I don’t think that most federal courts worried about that very much. Antitrust law in the US was not hindered in its development of a framework despite the relative paucity of formal legislation concerning it. |
[...] on Joseph Smith’s political thought. He was kind enough to provide a writeup of the recent Princeton Conference for the Juvenile [...] |
I’m entertained by the notion that legal arguments will be what wins the day here. If the judges find something sufficiently acceptable they’ll find the legal arguments they need and declare them sufficient. Witness Roe v. Wade or the MA gay marriage decision. If a sufficient number of judges decide that polygamy is ok then that is what will happen. |
Annegb - Unfortunately, Barlow was not able to make it, so Jan Shipps took his paper, reworked it, and presented it herself. I missed virtually all of the paper; what I heard emphasized the role of social issues that mobilized not just Mormons, but Catholics, and later evangelicals in the late 1970s. |
dbc: Marriage is a fundamental right and therefore the equal protection clause is implicated You’re conflating two things here: First are the legal rights associated with marriage. Second is the notion of marriage itself. These are logically separate. In Vermont, for example, one can enter into a same-sex union (affording all the legal rights associated with marriage) that is not a marriage. And it’s possible to imagine a setup in which people can legally participate in a polygamous marriage, but enjoy none of the legal protections afforded to a married couple. (In fact, such a setup is downright probable.) Decriminalization effects the second of these. Legalization effects the first of these. No matter what a court decides, the creation of a system of legal rights associated with polygamous couples simply cannot be created overnight. There’s no parrallel at all to desegregation, because that did not entail a fundamentally new legal framework — simply the abolition of an old framework and an expansion of an existing one. Furthermore, cultural disruption has nothing at all to do with most judges decisions. In fact, I suspect that most judges are stupid enough to value whatever disruption they cause within a system they personally consider to be unjust. But lets be perfectly clear: If a judge decides that polygamy is OK and that we can’t throw people in jail for marrying multiple spouses, that merely decriminalizes it. If a judge decides that polygamous couples are entitled to the same protections afforded to binary unions, the she’s made a category mistake. To choose a simple example: If a spouse in a binary union dies, the other has certain unique rights of survivorship relative to her property. This is true by the process of elimination. The only parallel case for a polygamous couple will be all the spouses die but one. Cases in which there are multiple marriage survivors of a spouse are categorically different. If a judge creates a common-law type of precedent from the bench, this is a step toward legalization, but it still is not legalization until there is a framework in place for handling legal disputes. What is going to happen is this: Polygamy will eventually cease to be illegal, but it will be a very long time before anything resembling a proper legal framework is developed around it. |
[...] Reports on the conference are already making the rounds (see Matt B.’s excellent summary here, for example); those seriously obsessed with Mormon studies will be happy to here that the entire [...] |
[...] dull establishment Joseph Smith spurned, that establishment is not ready to have him. Will he, as Francis Beckwith claimed Kennedy did, have to surrender the distinctiveness of his faith as the price of admission? [...] |
[...] long time ago, I wrote a post discussing, in part, the Pew Forum’s John Green, whose presentation at the Princeton symposium [...] |