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do I have to believe that there is one specific test they are referring to? I would prefer an interpretation that each of us will face our own personal test, which will come at a unique time for each of us. The HCK quote seems to mesh fine with this interpretation, though I’ll admit that the JGK quote is a little more difficult to interpret in this manner. |
Hmmm. I don’t know what to think of both quotes. There are so many things that the early saints said or thought about the future that they got wrong that it makes me take any of their words with a grain of salt. I look at it and say, “ah, good advice” and move on. Heck, Joseph Smith thought he would see the Second Coming in his lifetime. Now, say both quotes are prophetic and bespeak of a time in the future (supposedly past today’s time), where it gets that bad, well, I can’t think of a bigger impact on at least American Mormons than to have President Hinckley publicly state that his support of the Iraq war was miscalculated and wrong. I would think it would make a heck of a lot of conservative Mormons question their beliefs. But I don’t think that that would be the type of situation J. Golden Kimball is describing. The time he is describing is one where members of the church look, act, and generally are almost identical to non-members, so that it is difficult to tell whether one is a member or not. I don’t think we’re at that point. |
I agree, a lot of these quotes can be taken with a grain of salt. I guess this “borrowed light” concept rings true to me, though, since nowadays I hear so little first-person discussion of personal revelation at Church. But I don’t think that that would be the type of situation J. Golden Kimball is describing. The time he is describing is one where members of the church look, act, and generally are almost identical to non-members I ask half-facetiously, could this refer to a change in demographics in SLC, where the saints are tried by having growing numbers of fun-loving, non-LDS folk in their midst? |
Obviously, it’s all a future reference to the reaction to President Beck’s talk. |
Dan E, I forget who, I think Elder Scott, recently talked about the idea of “borrowed light” vs “personal testimony”. I can’t remember, and right now I’m too tired to do the research. But the concept is one that has been talked about recently. |
#2 Dan. I live in the south eastern US and I can tell you that most of the Christians here in my county look like they are LDS. Most act more Christ-like than a lot of LDS (except to LDS). I feel that I live in a conservative Utah most of the time. |
From my perspective it isn’t “what is coming” we need to worry about. Whether or not something devastating to LDS faith is coming or if its already here isn’t the issue. Living on borrowed light is the issue. Members have the invitation from the Lord to come into his presence in mortality (D&C 93:1). That is a possibility for all of us, not just GA. I think that experience would put us in a position to deal with anything. But this doctrine appears to be on hold in most members minds as subject to even think about. But what about the invitation to experience the gifts of the spirit. This subject is on the table and many experience this level of spirituality. This from my experience has allowed me to deal with very issue that as so far confronted me. Prosperity as we know it today is producing spiritual anemia in our ranks because we can so often find a solution to our difficulties via an “expert” of some kind. |
I agree with Jared. One of my favorite scriptures is 1 Ne 10:17-19, which I think invites us to learn what our leaders have learned. I think that those words must be there for a reason, namely that we ought to exercise that power to learn and strengthen ourselves spiritually. This system uses the things God has given us- apostles, Prophets, scripture- as guidance and then our own revelation as the real tool that we use for our decision-making. I don’t think there would be disagreement to saying that not working things out his way is either being lazy or prideful- either way dangerous. I would argue that the half-facetious comment about SLC demographics is a past phenomenon, where there is a greater number of “fun-loving” LDS now than there has been, either resulting from a demographic shift or rather the prophesied time of needing one’s own light. My evidence being the prevalence and popularity of coffee and tea dispensing machines at the University of Utah. I totally agree with the quotes, and I think the time has been here for a while. One concern is that there are so many issues the Church has not taken an official stand on and you can get some extreme opinions either way on the issue. Or Pres. Hinckley will say something about too many earrings and you get outrage instead of respect. Or sister Beck speaks… |
queuno (4), Jared (7),
I agree. Our prosperity leaves us in a position where it really feels kind of unnecessary to do the deep, sustained soul searching necessary to experience revelation the way we would in more difficult times. |
I think the church members in context of the quotes may have experienced issues related to giving up Plural Marriage, maybe that was a test. Perhaps extending the priesthood is another. Just a couple of thoughts. Joseph Smith, as I read him, believe that all people had this type of experience in their lives, and he even inflicted them on members from time-to-time. #9 – I have been a proponent in SS about your last comment, I second it. |
I’m uncomfortable with the idea of “sifting.” I can’t put my finger on why, but let’s take Sister Beck’s talk. I think there’s a different way to look at it, coming from the perspective of an almost-elderly person. I have been very concerned that the younger generation of women seem to dismiss homemaking skills and taking care of their husbands, ie, cooking meals, etc. However, many of these young women are also dealing with full time jobs and stresses that I didn’t have when I was raising my kids and canning and baking whole wheat bread from wheat I’d ground myself. Sister Beck’s talk is open to interpretation as far as being “a woman who knows.” Times have changed and we have to adapt while living our beliefs which isn’t as easy as it sounds. I didn’t hear anyone in my ward dismiss or diss Sister Beck. I heard young women bear their testimonies and re-commit themselves, but I also heard a note of desperation in their voices. Bill and I are in a relatively prosperous time of our lives and I can relate to prosperity making you lazy. We are so glued to satellite TV. I’ve become lazy about my spiritual life, that’s for sure. Another test is avoiding the constant air of contention that exists in our information age. We know things instantly, we argue about them and forget to live OUR lives the best we can, day to day. |
(Warning: Some rambling and/or thinking out loud) Please indulge. #11 Good point. Our lives often do not allow for an extreme interpretation of Sister Beck’s comments where we need to drop outside interests/obligations and stick to homemaking. It’s not realistic. Luckily she stressed “being wise”. Maybe the test(s) are those distractions and things that take us farther from our testimonies/spirituality rather than some frontal assault to our beliefs. Perhaps a great test is the lens through which we look at life. We either look at things through spiritual eyes, with the gospel as our lens, or we look at things through some other relative lens. There is a definite continuum for that idea, though. Would you say that this stress (caused by hearing comments like Sister Beck’s, or even the other side of that argument) or the test we’re talking about comes from the desire for prosperity, as described by Jared (7) and Dan E. (9)? Or by necessity? I think that those who make necessary sacrifices of home life in order to provide that home life find it hard to get by without spiritual life, while we prosperous find it easy to leave the fundamental spiritual things and find ways to argue. An application of the prosperity test and possibly another test might look like this: I think of the life of a farmer and the life of a literary intellectual and it could be assumed that there is a deep, fundamental rift in basic values. The farmer lives and dies by “reap what you sow”. He puts his livelihood and health into his living. The intellectual can rarely say the same. From a safe distance, the intellectual criticizes and reviews. The farmer is often a more religious person, while literary intellectuals might often be atheists or some other form of laissez faire religion for the sake of objectivity. Knowledge could easily be considered a test as well as prosperity, sometimes hand in hand. An aside on prosperity: |
Well, the original quotes talk about some kind of test that would actually push people out of the Church unless they have their own well-grounded testimony. We currently have a lot of people in the Church who have gone soft in their ease (I know this trial personally), and we have a lot of people who cannot speak from first person experience about many of the core principles of our faith. Neither group, though, appears to be leaving the Church as a result of some specific “sifting” event. What if this event has to do with adding home teaching stats to the recommend interview? Boy howdy… |
My two cents: |
I agree with previous comments that the sifting may be on a personal basis. My MP used to say that everyone will go through their own “Gethsemane” which was a nice way to think about those experiences in our lives that will truly test us and allow us to grow from it or to leave our testimonies and faith behind. That to me, is what they may be speaking about. |
PDoE (14), |
Dan, |
Yes, it is. That’s a great phrase from a great episode. |
Maybe it refers to the rise of the bloggernacle, and bloggers who think most prophetic utterance is mere “good advice.” |
When James shot himself, in October 1991, I quit praying and going to church. I couldn’t be in public long because I couldn’t hold my composure, I was a mess. I got out of the habit of church. Prior to that, I’d looked forward to Sundays. I also used to pray, kneeling, daily, usually twice a day and often with my kids, although not often with Bill, he’s not a pray-er and it was a contention situation. I stopped. Well, the first few months, I knelt and I bitched God out something awful. I sobbed and begged and pleaded and complained. Nothing. No answer. Well, not the answer I wanted, which was, “I want my son back and I want him back right now!” Then, “I want to see my son for one minute and I want to see him now.” Finally, I quit speaking to God. I’m talking now, but it’s different. He always answers my prayers. I should have more faith, but you know, habit is a big deal. I simply got out of the habit. I sure flunked that one. |
annegb, I think it’s safe to say you are someone who can speak in the first person about a lot of important things. I really can’t imagine a trial of the Church that would scare you away. |
No, I’m scared of a lot of things, Dan, no lie! This is all false bravado. For instance, I agonized (okay, that’s a slight exaggeration) over my calling as homemaking leader and it almost drove me away from the church. Seriously, I quit after 6 months, 15 pounds lighter and hating all things homemaking. On a more serious note, a real test that I’ve experienced is the way the church handles sexual abuse cases. I haven’t doubted the gospel or the Book of Mormon, but I’ve thought something was terribly rotten in Denmark. Or my stake. It’s hard to attend sacrament meeting when you know the leadership is mad at you because you’ve reported a sex offender. It’s hard. I’m scared of my shadow, frankly. |
The Elusive Creature has gone through this very time of trial Kimball once spoke of, only to find that his own light may simply not have been enough. As the Elusive Creature slips through the cracks of faith and begins his journey through the darkness of unbelief and hopelessness; he finds this warning to be very true and very vital for an individual’s salvation; although, he found out too late to guide his own life. The Elusive Creature is now lost, blind, drunk with sadness. There seems to be no way back to the days where he thought nothing could defeat him. Now that he is broken and sunk in a sea of endless doubt and fear, the darkness becomes more dense every second, and the light almost extinct. The Elusive Creature can act as if nothing is wrong, smiling to the members around him in Sacrament Meeting, but the emptiness in his heart is like a vicious parasite eating away the core of his soul. Yes, I got lost in the mist of darkness. No sweet fruit for me, not anymore, possibly not ever again. As the flame of my faith fades away into the crippling coldness of spiritual darkness; I would urge all of you who have a testimony: please hold on to it, nourish it, enlarge it. Seek spiritual experiences; please, nourish your spirit. Surround yourself with goodness, scripture study, prayer, service. Don’t let happiness slip through your fingers. This is the message of the Elusive Creature. |
Elusive, you’re not as elusive or unique as you might think. Many of us are faking it. It doesn’t always mean a loss of faith or spirit. I’m concerned by the despair in your voice and my prayer is that you will find hope. Or it will find you. Been there. Truly. |
Dan (#16) What a Rorschach test this is. I’m kinda amused that you automatically assume the trial will be the issue of homosexuality. It’s a very good point but my personal beef is a different issue and I had to force myself to edit my post to be more neutral. (I don’t regret the change at all ; there’s no need to antagonize anyone.) |
Elusive, Hang in there. God lives. He loves you. I have absolutely no doubt of that. With all its imperfections, the church is true. There is hope, even if you do not feel it. Just trust me on this. Even if sometimes I do not act like I have hope. Notwithstanding the topic of this thread, feel free to borrow my tiny little light as long as you want. Annegb, does this name sound less gender-confused? |
PDoE, I’m neutral on whether it will be homosexuality, but I do think that issue will become a trial for a lot of people as they observe happily married gay couples in the future and wonder why our Church would be against those relationships. This is going to clash pretty strongly with a lot of people’s sense of fairness and justice. |
It wasn’t a hypothesis so much as a snide remark I share it now in the name of discussion, so that we might look at it and discuss it like some strange picture on a wall. Reconstruction of the original, un-edited post: |
And here we see the futility of nasty comments; this one seems to have completely killed this conversation. |
I missed that comment, PDOE, but I agree. I think that’s where John Dehlin comes in. |