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The “theology” discussed by Blake Ostler has the advantage of harmonizing information about God found in the scriptures enjoyed by Latter-day Saints, i.e. the Bible (OT and NT), the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. (Another useful question that has surfaced from time to time is whether a “theology” is really necessary or desired in a religion guided by revelation to living prophets rather than organically developed philosophical constructions.) Most Latter-day Saints probably implicitly adhere to a belief in the co-eternal nature of Jesus Christ as the second member of the Godhead. It should be noted that Latter-day Saints believe in the Trinity to the extent that it is in harmony with the Godhead as revealed in LDS scriptures and latter-day revelation — and it is in harmony with the exception of God and Jesus being of one substance. This “homoousios” (same substance) could well be the heresy that renders the creeds an abomination in the sight of Jesus Christ. It is not in the plain language of the Bible but rather follows from the oft-repeated creedalist syllogism meant to bridge the transition between the OT and the presence of the literal Son of God in the NT. Such a syllogism is one reading or interpretation of the text (especially assuming ancient Hebrew rejection of El as the Father of Yahweh) but it is not necessary; other interpretations also follow from the text, interpretations that do not need the aide of a Greek philosophical concept (homoousios) to bridge the gap. Because it is not a necessary reading or interpretation of what is found in the Bible, the use of the creeds as a tool to claim that people do not believe in Jesus Christ at all because they do not confine themselves to a belief in “one substance” is probably more likely the abomination spoken of by Jesus Christ in 1820. Despite rejection of the theory of “one substance”, Latter-day Saints believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ are one in all other aspects. Close reading of the scriptures suggests Jesus’ Godhood in premortal existence, mortal existence, and in the Afterlife, and most Latter-day Saints I’ve met in my life seem to believe in this. The difference, therefore, more likely revolves around “one substance” and “creatio ex nihilo” than around the Atonement per se. The Atonement is just as central to Latter-day Saint belief in Jesus and the doctrines of salvation. But because Latter-day Saints are not constrained in reading the scriptures by creedal classifications or categorizations, a belief in the necessity of the Atonement does not require a belief in “one substance”. |
I agree that Mormonism is eventually going to have to chart its own course on the Atonement. I’m really tired of going hat-in-hand to the Protestants every time we need terminology to talk about God with. We need to quit beggaring our religion off mainline Christianity. The whole “Are Mormons Christian?” debate is a perfect case in point. The God of all humanity has charged us with gathering His people from all the four corners of the earth in preparation for the last days. He personally revealed Himself to our prophet and has charged us with taking His word to all people. And we waste our time bickering with Southern Baptist over whether we count as Christians or not. WHO CARES?!! Get a life. Grow up! You are the one true religion on the face of the planet for crying out loud! You should be acting like the theology that is going to shake the foundations of Christianity, challenge Judaism, and take the Muslim world by storm. And instead we play the resentful teenager crying about how our Protestant mom and dad don’t understand us. It’s pitiful. Over the last year, I’ve really started to get the strong impression that this whole debate is beneath us. We can do better than this. We don’t need Protestant theologians’ permission to be the true Church. Let them gripe about homoousis if they wish. Our task is much greater. Time to move on. |
Jack Chick’s probably our very own DKL. I agree with Seth. But Seth, it’s not that easy when people won’t shut up about it. Let’s take them all out. I’m up for it. :) I would like someone to explain the role of the Savior in my life today, aside from the atonement. I can take advantage of the atonement, and be ever grateful, BUT I need a way to have a personal relationship with Him. I pray to God, ending in His name isn’t enough for me. Do I pray to Him? Do I plead with Jesus, do I expect that He totally empathizes, therefore sympathizes, with me? We talk about Him a lot, of course, but I feel that we don’t take advantage of His true love and power, relying instead on our own works and hoping that God will somehow cut us a little slack. The Apostles talk a lot about Him and His love for us, but they don’t tell us how to do it, how to envision His role in our present lives. Is He watching over us, what? I know, I’m dense. But I wish somebody would spell this out for me. |
Yeah annegb, it gets a bit mixed up for me too. I mean, do we “worship” Jesus? We don’t pray to him. The first thing I think of when I think “God” is God the Father, the one I’ve been praying to all these years. I do have a relationship with the Father. But Jesus? Not really. I mean, I revere him and respect him. Certainly, I place him above any mortal figure in history or scripture in my esteem. I even frankly like him in the stories I read about him. But worship? Beats me. I don’t think the LDS Church really tells you how to worship Jesus, or even if you should be worshiping him. He is taught to be our older brother. So, I guess if you need a relationship with him, that’s the one for Mormons. Yeah, it would be nice if someone spelled this out a bit for us dense folk. |
Blake Ostler has spelled these things out. I really recommend blakeostler.com and for you to read his books. He deals with the issues of identity and prayer head on in his second book. |
Thanks guys – Seth, I think you’ve got a good point. It appears that many Mormons are deeply bothered by accusations that we are not Christian; I think because it plays upon old, old fears of persecution and raises our hackles. Yet we don’t really understand why, and persist, as JNS noted, in maintaining we are Christian based on a disciple model of Christianity. What we should be doing, as I argue, is developing our own theological resources, using our own scripture, our own prophetic tradition to get at these issues in a distinctly Mormon way, rather than leaning on Calvin for our atonement theory. Ostler (among the other thinkers I link to) has begun to do this. I’d like to see more of it. |
He he he. I think John F., is right on with creation ex nihilo. Even if God the Father (and Jesus) are eternally God and even one, not being outside of creation is the big stickler for creedal atonement theory (it seems to me). I think you are right, Matt, that creedal Christian concerns over the Mormon Jesus are more than bigotry. However, the manifestation of that concern in the grass roots is, I believe, generally hate-speech. As to my own particular views of ontology, I think I am more agnostic. I do think that Blake does sidestep this a bit. |
Seth #4 – You’re right Seth. McConkie called seeking a relationship with Christ, rather than the Father, one of the seven deadly heresies. |
Stape, John, I think you are right about ex nihilo creation; for Anselm (and by extension, just about everybody else), everything other than God by definition is creation, and therefore fallen and in need of redemption. ‘One substance’ is therefore a precondition for his atonement theory, but it is also a crucial factor for the juridical form it took. As John says, we don’t need homoousios to have a coherent atonement theory of our own. |
Jota G., McConkie has also been controverted on that point by number of prophets and apostles. OF course we worship Jesus. Those who don’t are simply in a weird conflux of Adam-God and McConkie dogmatism. See here. |
It does seem that the source of the disagreement is rooted in differences over the nature of man and of creation in general. The Mormon understanding of God organizing matter to accomplish the creation is foreign to most Christians. Add to that the Mormon notion that we are no more creations of God than any earthly parents create their offspring and you have the foundation of the divide. The controversies over the nature of Jesus, atonement theory, and diefication all spring out of this. I do have to say that while the I am clearly an adherent to the LDS model of things, I think some of our ideas about the Godhead are a little confused. I can see the need for the Talmage standardization around 1915, but I think that it simplifies some things too much. The hard fast rules that we have about who Jesus is and who God the Father is sometimes require logical gymnastics that are unappealing to me and that I doubt the ancient prophets participated in. |
J. Stapley, Actually, Elder McConkie’s statement was in repudiation of the Adam-God doctrine – “Heresy six: There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship. “The devil keeps this heresy alive as a means of obtaining converts to cultism. It is contrary to the whole plan of salvation set forth in the scriptures, and anyone who has read the Book of Moses, and anyone who has received the temple endowment, has no excuse whatever for being led astray by it. Those who are so ensnared reject the living prophet and close their ears to the apostles of their day. “We will follow those who went before,” they say. And having so determined, they soon are ready to enter polygamous relationships that destroy their souls. We worship the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost; and Adam is their foremost servant, by whom the peopling of our planet was commenced.” |
Jota, that is what is so ironic about that talk. McConkie is adopting parts of the doctrine (no need to worship Jesus) but rejecting it as a body. arJ, I agree that the pat definitions simply do not work in many cases. |
J. Stapley, I agree that the pat definitions simply do not work in many cases. A simple admission that this is the case in either seminary, institute, or Sunday School would have been welcome. Instead we cling so dogmatically to the superficially nice and clean Talmage definitions that we end up doing non-sensical backflips to maintain our grip on simplicity. |
My problem with “you worship a different Jesus” is that it sounds like baby talk, more appropriately applied to the toys in a child’s room than to God. Not a good launching point for serious discussion, even though writing here have overcome that setback. |
Matt B, Very Interesting Post. I spent my 2 years in Russia among either staunch Russian Orthodox or staunch atheists. I actually never once was accused of worshiping a “different jesus” until I ran into some 7th Day Adventists. Is it time for a clear separation of the Mormon semantics for the atonement from others’. I love the idea of strictly adhering to scriptural definitions, however I fear the burning of bridges that can be caused by a militant us/them stance as well as the “sifting” caused by taking away our precious Mormon colloquialisms. Next thing that leaves our dumbing-down speech is “tender mercies”. Talmage wrote a thought-provoking story about a lamp salesman who sold him a new lamp, not by showing him the lack of Talmage’s lamp, but rather complementing Talmage’s and offering to show him a better lamp. When Talmage saw the better lamp, he immediately bought it. I love the transfer to our mission of the church. Is our mission to establish just how different we are or how we are in the same business, but better. As for the relationship with Christ question, I’ve never heard that we worship Christ. We don’t pray to him. However, I think of the experience of Alma the Younger, calling upon the name of Christ for redemption. Christ said that he came to show us the Father. Joseph Smith always preached knowing God, but our Articles of Faith say we need to have Faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ. This is turning into a little paradox in my mind. For my two cents, we worship God the Father as the Great God, author of the plan, and worship Christ in terms of the atonement, as our father in salvation, understanding that he does nothing, save the Father commands. |
This is interesting. This reminds me of a discussion of mysticism in Judaism. The idea of how you know an unknowable god outside of the universe. Personally I think he 4th and 5th century Christians were too caught up in the idea that Christianity had to be monotheistic in nature. thus they did flips to fit Jesus into the idea of being monothesists. Personally I do not think of Mormonism as Monotheistic. It is monoprimacy. One God which is worshipped. I do not think Jesus is co-eternal in the Godhead, any more than I see the Godhead as eternal in that sense. How could he be if at one point he was an intelligence rather than an organized spirit. As well Father has not been co-eternally in the God Head because he also was, if I am to understand Joseph Smith’s doctrine taught in the King Foliett sermon, an intelligence who organized by his father into a spirit. It is just not that simple. In any aspect. |
J. Stapley, not to threadjack, but I don’t think not worshiping Jesus has anything to do with Adam-God. There is nothing about Adam-God as taught by Brigham that suggests we shouldn’t worship Jesus. |
Thanks, Seth, for your validation. When I was a little girl and often attended various Christian churches (sorry, guys, as opposed to LDS churches), I learned a lot about Jesus. They spoke of His love, of His miracles, of His life. I prayed to Him, asking Him to help me stop cussing (I cussed like a truck driver by the time I was eight, but I knew it was wrong). Now, it’s almost wrong to pray to Jesus, as I understand it. We pray to God. I can’t internalize that, “in His name”–I need to speak to the Savior because I truly believe He loves and understands me and my experience. But there isn’t a way within our teachings to do that. And God isn’t as nice or caring. So, yes, we are Christians, but Jesus is a more distant figure, like a loving uncle, rather than an immediately available shoulder to cry on. And God don’t want to hear no whining. I’m not being facetious. It’s a true dilemma that I face. I can’t be the only one. |
John – And I suspect that’s the way many who fling the accusation at Mormons use it; as a simple epithet. Hopefully, though, we can respond in more serious ways. Nasamomdele – I agree that all this means we should develop a more serious Mormon theology, one that relies upon our own definitions and concepts. Jon – I think you’re eexpressing sentiments that most Mormons have. Thanks. |
annegb- One of my favorite talks of all time is Jeffrey Holland’s “The grandeur of God”. The Gist of it is that in order for Jesus to be perfect, he has to be like God in Character and attributes. This means that what you see as good about Christ is also good about God. The relationship is different, I agree. Jesus has walked the Earth and “done the work” here, so to speak. This is important in that we do all things in His name, but he has only done the Father’s will, which means we worship the Father. I don’t think you have to dismiss any closer feelings for your Savior so you can worship the Father, as there are different roles played by each member of the Godhead. It is important to me that I know God’s role and love and respect Him for everything he does, because if Jesus is that nice and caring, God is as well. I hope that helps. |
Things change. Or else the wording changes. I remember President Hinckley saying at conference that he worships Jesus. But over 20 years ago, Bruce R. McConkie said we don’t worship Jesus. He said we worship the Father, in the name of Jesus, by the power of the Holy Ghost. But I think the gist of the Trinity versus Godhead debate is still mainly semantics. President Hinckley has shown that we don’t have to get hung up on which member of the Godhead we are talking about. I believe that Mormon doctrine is actually closer to evangelical/pentecostal doctrine than any other branches of Christianity. Evangelicals believe in spiritual gifts and walking with the Holy Spirit as a close and personal influence in our daily lives. So do we. (They may get some of the technicalities wrong, but I’ll grant that many of them are sincere.) But the blander denominations of Christianity, at least most Protestants, don’t believe in spiritual gifts, and don’t believe in personal revelation. Mainstream protestants seem to have taken the power and miraculousness out of Christianity. They’ve watered it down. They say miracles have ceased. They don’t believe in walking with the Spirit. Some Christians (of both Protestant and Catholic varieity) have also turned the Savior into a “wimp.” I don’t believe in a “wimpy” Jesus. He is tender and loving. But he is not the namby-pamby wimp or doormat that many Christians have made him out to be. So, in a way, I would like to concur that Mormons are not Christian by the definition that mainstream watered-down Protestants use. I don’t want to be a part of that kind of Christianity that denies the possibility of true Godly power and influence in our lives, as plainly described in the Bible. And I don’t want to believe in their “wimpified” Jesus, either. So in essence, the mainstream Christians do have two points. We’re not Christian according to their definition. And we don’t believe in their version of who Jesus is. I think the differences are much more basic and are actually much simpler, than the philosophies of the various “creeds” and the nature or substance of God’s being. What really surprises me is that the Evangelicals/Pentecostals don’t realize how very CLOSE we are to them! Because they (the E/P’s) also denounce the mainstream protestants as cold, un-spiritual, watered-down, and wimpified. |
I don’t know, I went to the pentacostal church and they are way different in their meetings. Not very boring, ever. |
Matt B. (#6): I am in total agreement with this comment, particularly this part: “What we should be doing, as I argue, is developing our own theological resources, using our own scripture, our own prophetic tradition to get at these issues in a distinctly Mormon way, rather than leaning on Calvin for our atonement theory.” I think we too often try to harmonize our theology with other Christian theologies. Because our theology is (at least somewhat) relatively unsystematic it is consequently difficult to pin down what exactly “Mormon theology” is. It would probably be more descriptive to say “Mormon theologies” (For example, the theology I discuss with fellow members of my ward and the more philosophical theology I discuss with fellow LDS students at the school of theology I attend is quite distinct. This may not be a good thing but it is the case). As a corollary to this point, it’s also true that in dialogue with other theologies we often talk past one another because we mean different things when discussing apparently similar concepts. Besides, the uniquely “Mormon” theological resources available to us are, in my opinion, inexhaustibly profound, and we risk not having mined the valuable ore that is there when we singularly insist on viewing our religion through an orthodox Christian lens. Matt discusses Blake Ostler’s attempt to do the above in formulating a uniquely Mormon theory of Atonement, but Blake is not the only one to have done this. Eugene England, W. Cleon Skousen, and more recently Kevin Clawson and Jacob Morgan have all formulated novel theories of Atonement using mostly LDS theological resources to do so. I am writing my Master’s thesis on contemporary Mormon atonement theory and it is fascinating both reading what is out there and discovering how little has been done with so much potential theological ore available. |