69 Comments | leave a comment | RSS 2.0 for this post | trackback |
President McKay was undoubtedly thinking of D&C 89:5. That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good… But he seems to have overlooked verse 7. And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly No distinction there about how it gets to the belly. The language is similar for hot drinks in verse 9. And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly There may still be a distinction to be made, however. I’m pretty sure rum cake is made with rum–alcohol and all. Same stuff in the cake as would be in your glass. I’m not so sure about mocha chocolate (maybe you can get Clark Goble to comment). What goes into the candy is probably not the same as what you would pour into your cup. So maybe it doesn’t count. That said, I would almost prefer getting a coconut chocolate. |
How did the high councilor know what coffee tasted like? |
Personally I eat my coffee crisps with glee. Even though they apparently now do put coffee into it I just do not see it as a significant amount to worry about. I still wonder if Utah has the highest percentage of Hot Choclate consumption. If so how does that jive with the Caffeine Orthodoxy that want Coke and Pepsi products put aside for the “same” reason coffee and tea are. Although earlier this year someone at a donut shop gave me coffee for my hot chocolate and I about chucked when I tasted it so I guess my old desire is now officially kicked. |
Last time I checked, the way each of us decides to live the gospel is between only two people, the Lord and oneself. Let’s not digress to the Law of Moses. Maybe that stake high counselor needs to come off his high horse, no on was forcing him to eat the candy. As for the cake, vanilla extract has more alcohol in it than rum extract which is probably what they used to make the rum cake. Even if they used the real stuff the alcohol is most likely cooked out during the baking process. |
Thanks Tagore for the laugh. My wife loves Coffee, excuse me, Mocha Ice Cream as does a former Bishop’s wife. Seems to me you can take all things to the extreme or take a chill pill and stop being Pharasaic about everything. Of course, I am a spirit of the Law type guy… |
“One of the ironies which is fostered, at times innocently, in the Church, is the feeling we have that the spirit of the law is superior to the letter of the law because for some reason it seems more permissive or less apt to offend others. The reverse is true. The spirit of the law is superior because it demands more of us than the letter of the law. The spirit of the law insists that we do more than merely comply superficially. It means, too, that we must give attention to the things that matter most and still not leave the others undone†(For the Power Is in Them, pp. 46–47). |
So who decides what the spirit of the law is anyway? |
“the visiting high councilor would bring the festivities to a screeching halt” So typical for a high councilor to ruin things. But I’d go with Pt McKay’s wisdom and EAT all the coffee I can. Anyway, when we go to for a temple recommend, we are asked to judge ourselves, so when Bishop asks: Do you live the WW; I always say: Yes….(with my fingers crossed) |
OK, so I check out the recipe for rum cake. Yes, they use real rum (1 cup). Half a cup goes into the cake itself, which is baked for one hour. The other half is added to a boiling glaze, which is immediately removed from the heat and cooled before pouring it on the cake. According to the table found on the following web page, more than half of the alcohol would remain in the cake/glaze after it was fully prepared. http://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/AlcoholCooking.htm And could somebody please enlighten me as to just what the spirit of the law in D&C 89:9 is? Clearly, we abandoned the letter of that law long ago. |
That story about Pres. McKay and the rum cake gets repeated quite a bit, and also the one about him wanting Coke in his cup. The point seems to be that he wasn’t worried about carefully policing the borders of the Word of Wisdom and, by extension, was a lot cooler than the uptight foils he converses with in these stories. There’s also an uncomfortable element there, though, that “I’m the President, and you’re not. I can get away with whatever I choose to.” The stories would be a bit different he it were Heber J. Grant or Joseph F. Smith on the receiving end of his zingers. |
I would have reached over and grabbed one anyways. I always say (imagine a political voice), if elected to the Q12, I will move to eliminate that coffee restriction. Hence you see why I will never have that opportunity. Incidently, I have never had coffee (I was always a tea drinker back in my pre-church days), but it does smell so good. |
11. TStevens I’d vote for you for Q12 membership! I love the smell of coffee in the mornings, which my co-workers enjoy but I can’t. |
What we call the Word of Wisdom is not D&C 89, and it’s current instantiation has been given to us by divine inspiration (by presidents of the Church subsequent to Joseph Smith). We’d be well advised to remember that continuing revelation is in order. (I’ll not comment on the question of whether or not eating coffee is OK, but I just want to point out that when we talk about the “Word of Wisdom”, we are not talking about D&C 89.) |
Even if they used the real stuff the alcohol is most likely cooked out during the baking process. My chemist husband has verified what someone said above…this is not true. A lot of the alcohol still remains. Still ends up being a personal choice, but I think it’s good to at least know what we are dealing with. |
#13. queuno I can’t agree with this. Packer explained how the WoW came to be official doctrine during the conference when the tabernacle was re-dedicated. It was back in 1907 or 1911 aprox, can’t remember now, when the first presidency made the WoW, section 89, official doctrine and clarified that Hot Drinks meant only tea and coffee (they left out, for example, the hot drink from south america knows as ‘mate’). In that conference the first presidency spoke -all three- and the president of the twelve spoke and then a sustaining vote was taking and that’s it -D&C 89 was mandatory for mormons, with hot drinks meaning tea & coffee. If you don’t believe me, I’ll take the time to look up Pt Packers talk explaining this. |
greenfrog (2): I don’t know. Probably the same way our YM’s pres. knows what pot brownies taste like. Gar (7): Good question. I think high councilors do. Just ask them. TStevens: That’s a very compelling platform. Gaining a spot in the Red Chair requires some serious campaigning, and I think your issue could be a real winner. John Mansfield (10): Interesting point. But wouldn’t you agree that there are a lot of members who are too uptight about this kind of thing, and that McKay, in fact, is a lot cooler because of his approach? queuno (13): Continuing revelation is definitely in order, but the Church has wisely backed off of getting into details of the WofW. The statement I quoted from the Handbook is the entire section on the WofW. That and DC 89 are the extent of the Church’s official position. Which seems to me to leave a lot of room open to eating coffee-flavored chocolates in PEC. |
Speaking of pot, there was a story about Elder Talmadge sampling pot while at Harvard to understand the effects of it on his body. I believe he wrote about it in his journal… |
At my old work where I was the only LDS, rum cake was frequently indulged in by my coworkers. The alcohol was definitely not cooked out because the way my boss made it, a cup of rum was poured over the entire cake after baking. As a practicing Mormon, my coworkers expected me not to drink and were really cool with it. I think if I had taken a big piece and said that it was okay to eat it, not drink it, they would have been a bit confused and probably thought that my religion was even sillier than they may have already thought. I’m cool if David O. McKay ate the stuff up, and I don’t fault anyone for doing it, but the WoW must sure look weird to an outsider, eh? |
Chocolate covered espresso beans would probably take that high councilman right over the edge. This kind of strikes me as a funny way to stir things up a little bit – in a way that is (as Douglas Adams would say) “mostly harmless.” |
Devyn, if that Talmage pot-sampling journal entry is available, I’d very much like to read the quote. |
I can verify that the alcohol cooking out belief is not true. If you cook with alcohol it will still be present to some extent at the end of the process. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I always want to try chocolate covered espresso beans, but I cannot bring myself to pay the prices they charge for them. Slightly related story. A friend was participating in a 100 mile race and had chocolate covered espresso beans in a plastic bag in her fanny pack. As the heat of the day wore on she reached behind her and found they were all melted. Not to be deterred she pulled out her goopy, lumpy, and chocolate covered fingers and jammed them into her mouth. Needless to say, the sight of their fellow runner sticking her hand behind her back and then putting wet brown stuff into her mouth created a whole different imagine for them. |
So what about things are are coffee flavored? They contain no coffee molecules whatsoever, but artificial coffee flavor?? |
I can’t stand the smell of coffee let alone the taste. When you accidently grab the coffee jelly-belly it nearly ruins the experience-until you find a grapefruit bean to wash out the taste. I do love coffee cake, though. Is that so wrong? |
Ah Tiramisu….such a great contraband cake! |
If eating alcohol is OK, then that means Jello-shots don’t break the Word of Wisdom. Yipee! Nasamomdele, coffee cake, high in sugar and fat, is actually worse for the body by all accounts than coffee. So yes, that’s wrong! Plexoboy, whenever my friends and co-workers inquire about the peculiarity of the Word of Wisdom, I simply answer that it’s a religion that started in the 19th century, and there are many areas where it retains a 19th century flavor. This aversion to “hot drinks” and interest in temperance are among them. |
I agree with the person who said you should have asked for one first, Tagore. Or just said, “Well, heck, Bishop, give them to me! Don’t throw away delicious coffee candies!” I have an overly relaxed perspective on the WofW, but this is just silly. That would have been a good response, too. “Oh, don’t be silly, George. It’s candy, not meth.” |
This topic sure seems to come up a lot. From a comment I made at FMH a week ago: * WoW interpretation has changed significantly over time. There are a number of very good historical studies of this. BYU professor Thomas Alexander’s book, Mormonism in Transition, is one of the best resources. It covers developments in the church from about 1880 to 1920, which is the time frame in which the interpretation changed. There’s also a very good master’s thesis on the development of the modern approach, which is available online via the BYU library Mormon related papers electronic collection. The upshot is that until the turn of the century, the WoW was interpreted in a variety of different and inconsistent ways. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young themselves drank wine and coffee; Brigham Young encouraged members to grow tobacco and vineyards in Utah, and so on. And really, the first three verses of section 89 say outright — This is not a commandment. It is just good advice. (Really! Read them over.) There was substantial disagreement over which sections, if any, should be enforced. For a while, Lorenzo Snow taught that the most important part of the WoW was the meat language. Around the turn of the century, Joseph F. Smith set out to standardize the application of the WoW. A few other church leaders (including Heber J. Grant) were strongly in favor of enforcing the alcohol/coffee/tea/tobacco provisions, and making the others more-or-less optional. Other leaders disagreed — John A Widstoe, for instance, wanted to make meat an enforced part of the law, and also add white flour to the list. Over a few decades of consistent enforcement under Joseph F. Smith, Heber J. Grant, and J. Reuben Clark (who did a lot of the enforcement), the modern interpretation became widely accepted. Even then, enforcement was not strong until mid century. (There are instructions from church leaders to bishops, saying not to withhold temple recommends unless the person is a really bad public drunk.) The bottom line: The WoW today really is not the same as the set of ideas in Section 89. That’s okay. Some church opponents like to make lots of hay out of this (â€look, Joseph Smith drank coffee!â€), but really, there’s no doctrinal reason why it shouldn’t be valid. Given by one prophet; modified by others. |
Carlos and Tagore – So you believe that all of D&C 89 is considered valid when you answer the Temple Recommend question? Of course you don’t, unless you’re going to start worrying about meat-eating habits. I’m not knocking the commandment we call the “Word of Wisdom”. But by the very fact that there was clarification required in 1907 and 1911 indicates that we have had to rely on continuing revelation subsequent to Joseph Smith. In missions around the world, local authorities have to clarify whether or not certain drinks are OK or not (mate=yes, green tea=no, etc.) We can say that we adhere to portions of D&C 89 as the basis for the commandment we call the “Word of Wisdom”. But it’s still a simple fact that D&C 89 – as laid out – is not the commandment. The section PLUS all of the clarifications MINUS sections we don’t focus on, is what currently constitutes the “Word of Wisdom.” As Kaimi says, more succinctly than I: The bottom line: The WoW today really is not the same as the set of ideas in Section 89. That’s okay. Some church opponents like to make lots of hay out of this (â€look, Joseph Smith drank coffee!â€), but really, there’s no doctrinal reason why it shouldn’t be valid. Given by one prophet; modified by others. Exactly. This is more of a case of continuing revelation. |
“D&C 89 is considered valid when you answer the Temple Recommend question?” No, technically the temple recommend limits the WoW to the four basics which are well known. But surely faithful mormons will live the full WoW? in that you do all the “do’s” which actually outnumber the “don’ts”. As such we shouldn’t say that “we adhere to portions of D&C 89 as the basis for the commandment we call the “Word of Wisdomâ€.” But the church doesn’t police this aspect like it doesn’t police the keeping sunday holy. The highter level faithful mormon will live all the WoW like they live the full Sunday worship thing and won’t watch TV, and never see a MA movie, and read scripture daily etc etc. But this is a voluntary acceptance of this higher law, no one is force to practice all this off course, its by invitation. |
I think we’re just arguing about semantics. If you drink coffee regularly, you can be denied a temple recommend. If you mainline Diet Coke and eat a 14-ounce ribeye every day, you’re in the clear, membership-wise. Your health is an entirely different matter that, like bedroom issues, our leaders don’t generally concern themselves with, either in written or unwritten form. I’m more worried about the idea of what constitutes active membership in the Kingdom. Lesser law, yes. But we should avoid institutionalizing the higher law as a standard for fellowship or for worthiness in having a calling. The temple recommend interview asks if you obey the Word of Wisdom. It’s not asked if you obey the lesser law. It’s not asked if you obey the limited set of basic questions. As we understand it, “The Word of Wisdom” is limited to the four basic questions. The higher law, spelled out in D&C 89 and clarified by subsequent revelation and practice, is an entirely different thing. I wonder what said high councilor would have done if he had been in a recent welfare meeting, where my wife’s (rather large) unzipped purse tipped over and a can of Dr. Pepper rolled out? As far as I’m concerned, he may make a statement about health, but there shouldn’t be an unwritten rule established about “the WoW says you shouldn’t drink that”. |
I so heart Tiramisu. |
queuno: In a temple rec interview we are asked if we obey WoW basics in that we abstain from alcohol, tabaco, tea coffee, (or words to that effect) that is they bring it down to a basic common denominator just for Temple entrace. But you are free to, and should try to live the full WoW -not the basics of it in that temple interview- but that’s up to each individual since its given via advice. Maybe in the millenium they will require the full WoW for temple worship or even sunday worship, but now they don’t. On that hight councilor, for me he was out of line in bring it to the bishops attention. He isn’t there to do that, and the Bishop presides over him in that meeting. If he was concerned he should’ve said it later in private. But there isn’t a manual for high councilors either, so they just do their best I guess. |
Technically, the real question on coffee-flavored candy is whether it contains artifical coffee flavoring (“esthers”), or contains real coffee. Keep in mind that the artificial flavoring is merely a man-made chemical that bears no relation to the actual plant. For instance, there are generally no parts of a strawberry to be found in strawberry-flavored hard candies. Although there may be no coffee in coffee-flavored candy, it seems akin to drinking beer-flavored non-beer, or non-alcoholic beer, such as Malta. See: Why eat or drink something that takes a lot like something we’re not supposed to eat or drink? Seems like dancing close to the edge, to me. As far as eating coffee beans, chocolate covered or not, it’s like eating coffee grounds. The majority of the coffee bean is non-digestible, and the grounds (ie a chewed coffee bean) seem to get easily stuck in your large intestine and cause problems. (Don’t ask how I know that.) |
Pax makes some rocking Tiramisu that I eat heartily every time I get to go in Midtown. I tell you I’d be broke if Pax operated downtown. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta_(soft_drink) Sorry, the editor grunged the URL when it second-guessed me and turned it into a link. |
It did it again, even when I specifically encapsulated it. Sorry. |
“Although there may be no coffee in coffee-flavored candy, it seems akin to drinking beer-flavored non-beer, or non-alcoholic beer, such as Malta” Exactly. There’s no problem with non-alcoholic beer or alcohol fee sparkling apple/grape drink so there shouldn’t be a problem with no-coffee coffee flavoured candy (Wow) Anyway, one can also drink beer, wine, smoke and when asked if you live the WoW just answer ‘Yes’ with your fingers crossed. |
By the way, what’s Tiramisu |
Danithew – here is the quote. It is from Dennis Rowley’s article on Talmage called “Inner Dialogue: James Talmage’s Choice of Science as a Career.” from Dialogue 17:112-130 (1984). This is a journal entry from 1884 while he was at Johns Hopkins: “March 17: I have been engaged some time in the study of the effects of Narcotics upon the system, ie. studying the same theoretically only. Today I found a gentleman who works in the same Lab as I, and who has for 2 years been addicted to the habit of eating Haschich or extract of Cannabis Indica. He was very willing to give me data from his own experience. March 21: We have concluded to try effect of small dose upon ourselves. Of course, such a course is the proper one for the study of the effects of the drug, though I very much disliked the idea of doing such a thing, for as yet, I have never known what it is to be narcoticized either by tobacco, alcohol or any drug…. March 22: This being Saturday, was the day I selected to study the effects of Haschisch. This evening, after work and all was over, I took at 3 doses each an hour after the preceeding – 5 grains solid extract Cannabis Indica. At this writing – midnight – 5 hours since last dose, I have experienced no effect whatsoever. April 5: Took in all 15 grains, no effects. April 6: Sunday – continued my experiment by taking 20 grains of Cannabis Indica and the effect was felt in a not very agreeable way” There you have it – Talmadge took pot and on the sabbath… |
Go Talmadge! |
Devyn – and on April 6th, to boot! Wow. Carlos – So we’re basically agreeing, but taking different routes to get there. |
Just had a thought. Maybe pot is the reason why the apostles never look nervous when giving talks in general conference? |
#41, no I don’t think we agree. I understood you saying that the basic only is commandment? “It’s not asked if you obey the limited set of basic questions” You are. Unless they changed the questions in the last 5 odd years, since I was asking them, they clarify ‘in that you abtain from alcohol…etc’ or similar words, can’t remember exactly now. This means that the church is policing only the basic elements but the entire WoW is the commandment now even if no one is asked whether they obey or not. Similar to Temple attendance, we must do but no one is asked if we do. |
Carlos - I still think we’re arguing over semantics. The problem is with the interpretation of “commandment.” I’d rather stick with “requirement” and “higher law”. The last interview I had (recently) asked if I obeyed the Word of Wisdom. There wasn’t any specification of the particulars — but even if it were, the bishop wouldn’t have asked, “Do you subscribe to this limited/basic set of particulars from the Word of Wisdom?” He asked if I obeyed the Word of Wisdom. No mention of meat, grain, sugar, etc. in the interview. I agree that we should be striving to live the “Word of Wisdom”/higher law. No disagreement there. But our institutional push is for the “Word of Wisdom”/basic requirement (the four basic things) — that’s what we require for convert baptism, what we teach new members and investigators, what we require for temple attendance. Similarly, both “tithing” and “fast offerings” are commandments, but only one is a “requirement” for full fellowship in the kingdom. Anyway, if you’d like, I’ll edit my #13 to say: The requirement we call the Word of Wisdom is not the same as the commandment given in D&C 89, and it’s current instantiation as a requirement has been given to us by divine inspiration, by presidents of the Church subsequent to Joseph Smith. We’d be well advised to remember that continuing revelation is in order. Is that better? |
Kaimi: Thanks for the historical context– both interesting and helpful. And I think you’re right– this does come up a lot. It’s the bloggernacle. What are we supposed to do, discuss things that are actually non-trivial? Devyn: Talmadge using pot as a science experiment. Wow. I can think of a lot of scientific experiments I’d like to try. queuno (28): I don’t think I’m in disagreement with you or Kaimi on that point. |
No, Maybe I’m not clear enough. Let me refrase: There is only one commandment for WoW given in D&C 89; it IS the same commandment as given in sec89 and Temple interview. But for the purposes of Temple entrance members are asked if they obey about 15% of this WoW in that they abstain from 4 things, this because GA’s limit the questions to these 4 basics as a universal common denominator across the church which everyone should and can obey. But to be true to the commandment of the WoW you would obey the full commandment as per section 89. Its more than just semantics here because you are claiming that there are, if I understand you right, two requirements for WoW, one as per temple interview and another different as per sec89. But again, its each person choice to live the full WoW or not. I doubt anyone will miss out on sharing a dinner with Joe Smith in the spirit world after death if they overeat of drink Coke or these coffee tasting candy or McKays cake! |
Either your not reading your own statements, or you’re just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, but your argument just doesn’t make any sense. There is only one commandment for WoW given in D&C 89; it IS the same commandment as given in sec89 and Temple interview. But for the purposes of Temple entrance members are asked if they obey about 15% of this WoW in that they abstain from 4 things, this because GA’s limit the questions to these 4 basics as a universal common denominator across the church which everyone should and can obey. If only 15% of the section 89 is a requirement for the temple, then that 15% constitutes its own “commandment”. Feel free, as you say, to consider Section 89 with its subsequent prophetic clarifications as a higher commandment, but you can’t reject the required 15% as a commandment in its own right (lesser commandment, perhaps, but a commandment none the less). Continuing to call the higher law “the” Word of Wisdom for purposes of full fellowship is what continues the unwritten rules against Coke, etc. Separating the requirement from the higher law is the appropriate distinction. |
“If only 15% of the section 89 is a requirement for the temple, then that 15% constitutes its own “commandmentâ€.” See we do disagree. If only 15% is tested then only 15% of the one commandment is tested. Say it was maths instead of WoW. Only 15% of the syllabus is tested for now, the 85% left you still have to learn and apply but it isn’t tested. But its still the one subject: maths. Same here for WoW. 1 Commandment as per sec89, but to entre the Temple they ask you if you obey this 15% of this one single commandment. Maybe I shouldn’t use ‘higher’ or ‘lesser’ law. It’s one only commandment but the church syllabus only tests that 15% -the four no’s; for now. Still the faithful will one day stop and realize that its 100% that we should obey, even if it isn’t all ‘examined’/tested/asked about during that temple interview. |
Carlos,
The ultimate WoW breaker. :) |
I had Tiramisu again from a a DC-area restaurant recently, and it sure did pick me up. It’s one of my favorite desserts. |
For me it is a toss up between tiramisu and creme brulee |
I would be nothing without extra strength excedrin and Dr. Pepper. One time, years ago, I went to a Special Interest fireside (it’s singles now, I think) and the apple cider had fermented. I knew it, I knew that taste, but I drank it down. Somebody said, “does this taste funny to you.” Me: “Tastes just fine to me.” And we had a happy time. |
I love those desserts with a little zip. Anne – that is a great story about the fireside. Great thing about spiked punch is most Mormons would not notice except for the funny taste… |
All you mormons who drink tiramisu, excedrin, spiked punch, apple cider and Dr.Pepper are all going to Hell! :) |
you can’t drink tiramisu…but then again it does melt in your mouth…mmmmm |
Chocolate is a drug. Therefore, by your own rules, you are drugged up sinners who shall burn in hell. Also if God created all the plants that bear seed, then he created cannabis. If God created it, it is by definition good. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. |
To all this I’ll just add that at our ward Christmas party the bishop described to the ward how much he loves his wife’s family’s method of making hot chocolate. They top it not with marshmallows but with ice cream. He then went on to say that you can’t use coffee ice cream because the ice cream melts and then you’d be drinking coffee. I didn’t have the heart to ask for clarification. |
#56 “Chocolate is a drug”……..yeap, and junkies addicted to chocolate are ‘Chocoholics’….. (sorry, sorry, please forgive me) “If God created it, it is by definition good”, and he created Satan, Bill O’Reilly, Hillary Clinton, Jeff Dahmer, cocain, tabacoo………………..and so on. “you can’t use coffee ice cream because the ice cream melts and then you’d be drinking coffee” brilliant!!:) |
I’ve also discovered cooking wine and what it does to chicken. Yum! The cooking wine is right by the pharmacy and I would bet money the pharmacist thinks I’m drinking it. I don’t like wine to drink, though. Cold beer, you bet :) |
Incidentally, folks, I’d like to publicly state that on this day, I, QueUno, have on one occasion, when I was trying to heal my back following a car accident, purchased and used HGH. I’d like to apologize to Senator Mitchell, Don Fehr, and Bud Selig. I don’t think my HGH usage came up in the TR interview, though. It was prescribed by a doctor, just like my grandfather’s stake president/cardiologist prescribed him a cup of wine a day. |
(/satire) |
Hrm, What was the need for the revisions? Did Joseph Smith say something wrong? Did God? Taking the WoW at its literal, avoid hot drinks – including Hot Chocolate, Hot Tea and Hot Coffee (says nothing about avoiding COLD Tea does it?) and you avoid Strong Drink but Mild Drink (whatever that is) is OK. I read what Kaimi said… “A few other church leaders (including Heber J. Grant) were strongly in favor of enforcing the alcohol/coffee/tea/tobacco provisions, and making the others more-or-less optional.” In favour of? Is this not inspired of the lord? Is this not divine revelation? If the original WoW can be so incorrect that it needs revelation, correction, addition and subtraction, then maybe latter revisions are just as unreliable. I really believe Joseph Smith was onto something. But there just feels to me like there’s something so man made about the latest incarnations. I’ve been strongly considering joining the mormons for a long time, but its things like this that make me wonder. If I joined, I’d take it at its literal meaning, abstain for HOT drinks and drink Mild Beer. |
Tiramisu is one of my all-time favorite desserts…I’m constantly looking for restaurants that serve great tiramisu. In DC I’ve found a few winners, a recent one being Trio just off Dupont which does it well. There’s a little amaretto in their recipe. Best tiramisu I’ve had in a while. |
Simon, God doesn’t change, but his instructions to us can and have changed many times. Please don’t be like the ancient Jewish converts to Christianity who thought that gentile converts needed circumcision because Moses said it was a _perpetual_ covenant, and by golly, they were going to keep on doing it. Also, the sabbath was changed by the early apostles from Saturday to Sunday. That ticked off some traditionalists too, since the Old Testament indicated that the SEVENTH day was a “perpetual” sabbath. Lots of things change in regards as to what is expected of believers. Stone the adulters… okay, now don’t stone them. Don’t eat pork. Okay, now you can. Sacrifice all those bulls, rams, lambs, turtledoves… okay, now no more sacrifices. Even just in Joseph Smith’s day things changed. The Law of Consecration held for a while, then stopped. Then tithing kicked in. For a while, there was “the gathering”… “Okay, everyone to Kirtland..” “Allrighty, now everyone to Missourit”. Oops, “Now everyone to Nauvoo.” Ooops, that didn’t work out.. “Now everyone to Utah.”. Then in the early 1900′s Joseph F. Smith said, “Okay, you converts stay where you’re at, and we’ll build up Zion all over the world. We’ll bring the church to you.” Then in the 1950′s stakes started to be formed outside of the US. So not only was the church taken overseas, the prophet now said to the overseas members “You _ARE_ the church!” Back in Joseph Smith’s day, some black men were ordained to the Priesthood. Then in Brigham Young’s day, they were denied the priesthood. Then in 1978, President Kimball and all the apostles received what they called a very clear and powerful revelation from the Lord that the time had come to give all worthy men, regardless of ethnicity or skin color, the priesthood. Even in my day, in the last 25 years, I’ve seen changes. Different leadership posts have been created then discontinued. “Regional representatives” and “Area representatives” were discontinued. Then “Area Presidencies” were formed. Then they were discontinued in the US, but kept outside of the US. Missions used to be 3 years, then 2 years, then 1.5 years, then changed back to 2 years. Part of the committment necessary to join the church is to sustain/support the CURRENT president as Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, authorized to receive and promulgate the Lord’s will as it pertains to the whole church. Bottom line, is that if you want to implement the “non-mandatory” parts of the WoW like eating meat sparingly, you’re fine in doing so. If you want to go the extra mile, or if you think the “spirit of the law” also requires the abstinence from all forms of caffiene (hot chocolate, caffeinated sodas, etc), then you’re fine in doing so. No one will fault you for avoiding chocolate and avoiding the consumption of meat in the summer. But at this point in time, the current prophet makes it clear that “at a minimum” current saints are expected to avoid both hot coffee and cold coffee, both hot tea and cold tea, and alcoholic beverages, including beer. And avoiding avoiding all forms of tobacco. So sustaining the current prophet, as a prophet, means making a committment to keeping the Word of Wisdom, _as currently taught_, and doing so _as a minimum_. Feel free to discuss these things with your local full-time missionaries, or the ward mission leader, or the ward’s bishop. And blessings upon you for investigating and considering joining the church. |
Can we talk circumcision? |
Absolutely. |
[...] David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism, Gregory Prince and Wm. Robert Wright, p. 23. (Mormon Mentality) This actually has some interesting comments on it where McKay is criticized for this action. But [...] |
[...] Mormon Mentality Thoughts and Asides by Peculiar People Eating Posted by root 2 hours 34 minutes ago (http://www.mormonmentality.org) Powered by mysql 5 middot powered by debian linux my wife loves coffee excuse me mocha ice cream as does a former bishop wife i 39 ll not comment on the question of whether or not eating coffee is ok but i just want the majority of the coffee bean is non Discuss | Bury | News | Mormon Mentality Thoughts and Asides by Peculiar People Eating [...] |
Your blog is cool |