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| Tuesday, June 18, 2013 |
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| Rudolph Giulani or Hillary Clinton? |
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Dec. 12th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
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The Bloggernacle has a lot to say about Mitt Romney – but there is a potential political scenario that I think would pose some interesting questions for Mormons … so I thought (while the potential exists) I’d ask a question to our readers here. Imagine that after the primaries the United States presidential race comes down to Rudolph Giulani as the Republican candidate and Hillary Clinton as the Democratic candidate.  Loading ...If you wish, feel free to express the reasoning for your preference in the comments. |
Can there even be a question? Hillary. |
Rudolph Giuliani would be an utter disaster as a president. |
Sam B., A conversation I had with a friend last weekend is what generated this post. For some reason during the conversation this question occurred to me and I was a bit surprised to realize that I would confidently and with certainty choose to vote for Hillary Clinton over Rudolph Giulani. I generally consider myself to be politically conservative and I’ve never been a huge fan of Hillary – but the comparison helped me get a firmer and clearer perspective on what I respect about her and what I don’t like about Giulani. |
I’ve heard a lot of conservative voters say that they’d rather vote for Hillary in this situation, so that they can retain the anti-abortion card to play in the next election. But I think Rudy would be an utter disaster. |
Hillary Clinton would be an utter disaster as a president. |
Neither strikes me as a particularly good choice but I’m having a hard time understanding what Mr. Giuliani’s qualifications are. He was mayor of a city that was attacked. It turned out that his city wasn’t particularly well-prepared and didn’t correct those mistakes afterwards. I fail to see how he has any support at all. |
arJ, |
I’ll take Hillary’s disaster over Rudy’s. |
I don’t know if Hillary would be exactly a disaster – I think she would have a very strong agenda and the drive to make it happen. Since I don’t agree with many of her views, I probably wouldn’t be too excited about that development. Having said that, I think she is one of the most intelligent, diligent and capable politicians we’ll probably ever see. I would be very interested in seeing a debate between her and Mitt Romney – to see how Mitt would do. I suspect he would do well, but I think that debate would be the best test of his campaign. |
Who are their running mates? |
Susan, excellent question … since we couldn’t know, I was basing this poll on the candidates themselves. Obviously, knowing who the running mates would be could be very significant in making this kind of a decision. |
Wow! Hillary’s winning 64% to 36% in a US mormon blog! amazing. Maybe its to do with Giuliani’s adultery, or double divorce? I wonder. But I am sure that if Obama is Hillary’s running mate then Mormons will overwhelmingly vote for them because, it seems to me, US Mormons are sick of this blacks-priesthood-discrimination issue and want to show the country that they aren’t racists at all? |
Carlos, But US Mormon blogs are not actually very representative of the US Mormon population. US Mormon bloggers tend to be more moderate, and gasp even liberal. There’s a better representation. But don’t think this in any way shape or form shows the real representation of Mormons in America. |
Dan, You burst my bubble |
I would sit this one out (like I did in ’96). A photo yesterday of Nestor Kirchner handing over the presidency of Argentina to Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner reminded me of what I really don’t want for my country. |
Dan, On second thoughts, this is a trend line here and 64% is a landslide figure. From that other post: ” Dan: I’m not sure anymore. Maybe some Mormons will be offended enough to stay home? and hence let Hillary get Utah. But it will be very interesting to watch how this pans out. |
If those were the two candidates, I would have to vote for Al Gore (write-in). Of course, since I live in Utah, my vote for president will make no difference whatsoever. I will vote on that day to oppose or support other, local issues–already understanding that Utah’s electoral votes will go to the Republican, whoever he is. If the democratic candidate is Obama, however, I will do all I can to support him even from here (still realizing that the Republican will carry Utah). |
I would vote for Clinton over Huckabee. Not because Huckabee is an anti-Mormon bigot, but because his fiscal policies would, most likely, be worse than Clinton’s. |
#15 John Argentina is no great example but Kirchner has performed miracles in turning around the argentinian economy since the meltdown of 2001, and one sees this on the streets (and sales figures for me) If his wife continues the trend, well it could only be better for the country -even if some legal issues are strange there. |
I would be very interested in seeing a debate between her and Mitt Romney – to see how Mitt would do. I suspect he would do well, but I think that debate would be the best test of his campaign. Honestly, I think it would be very tough for Romney to debate Senator Clinton. I think he would fall into a patronizing tone and come across as demeaning to Senator Clinton as a woman. |
Im voting for Kang. What a horrible, horrible choice, Kang or Kodos |
Um, what about Senator Clinton’s accomplishments? She married a man who became president, the end. Oh, and she wrote a couple of bestsellers. On the other hand, it cannot be disputed what Mayor Guiliani did for NYC. Crime plummeted, he got the hookers out of Times Square, and turned a billion dollar deficit into a surplus. |
Mephibosheth, Giuliani, on the other hand, inherited a city with momentum, and didn’t manage to ruin it; he was a fine placeholder mayor, whose minor personal lapses didn’t make any national headlines (unless you count California and everywhere in between), etc. etc. Seriously, what has Giuliani done? He was mayor of a big city. Full stop. |
Sam B., Last time I checked Rudy had a law degree, too. And a law practice. Great for a legislator but hardly qualifies one for an executive position. On the other hand, the remarkable changes in NYC during his tenure are a different story, and can hardly be attributed to momentum. On the other hand, I’m not sure Hillary would be where she is today were it not for the one whom she married. |
were it not for the one whom she married. What about the ONE that Rudy married. Oh wait… I’m reminded of a joke that was popular during the Clinton years. Bill and Hillary are at her high school reunion. Hillary introduces Bill to Joe, who is now an auto mechanic, noting that she dated Joe in high school. Afterwards Bill says, “Well aren’t you glad you married me since I’m the President?” “Bill, if I had married Joe, he’d be President.” The point being that even 15 years ago people were aware of her capabilities and ambition. If you laughed at this back then you have to question Mephibosheth’s comments now. |
Mephibosheth, It may not actually have been anything that Giuliani did in New York to lower crime. The real success may have been the drive to remove lead paint from all the windows in poor areas of New York decades before. It’s a fascinating study. And really, you should just ask New Yorkers to find out exactly how good of a leader, or not, he really was. Personally I’d take Mike Bloomberg over Giuliani easily. So much better leader. |
Both strike me as being more than a little dishonest, but Guiliani seems both dishonest and corrupt, and probably a bully. That’s worse. Of the remarkable changes in NYC, many were dramatically started before he became mayor (the lowering of the crime rate, for one) and many more were the result of underlings that he fired when they wanted credit. |
Ditto to Dan–the best thing Giuliani did for New York was to endorse Bloomberg. And Mephibosheth, you didn’t respond to Hillary’s time in the Senate. Frankly, that’s far from nothing, and a whole lot better background for the presidency than being mayor. Even of the great city of New York. |
arj, I don’t doubt her ambition or capability. But I think Guiliani has a proven executive record, so given the choice between the two I would go with him rather than take a chance on Clinton’s potential. Dan, That is the biggest wad of horsecrap that I have ever heard. Katie P., I don’t think we can attribute the slide in crime to sheer momentum. The crime rate across the nation was dropping too, but it was dropping way faster in New York than it was anywhere else. I don’t know enough about NYC politics to know who came up with the so-called “broken window” policies, but I think if crime had gone up during his tenure everyone would be blaming him, and so it’s only fair that we give the mayor some of the credit. I think that’s more realistic than saying it was 1) momentum, or 2) New Yorkers stopped eating paint chips. Anyone else got any theories? Sam B., I don’t see how making laws in any way qualifies one for the Executive branch. When you brought it up before, I glanced at her senate record and didn’t see any red flags, but didn’t exactly see anything to write home about, either. Maybe you could point out what I seem to be missing. |
Mephibosheth, Do you give Bill Clinton credit for the lowering of the national crime rate then? |
arj, Sure. He signed that bill into law that provided federal funding for like 100,000 extra cops or something, if memory serves. I used to suffer from Clinton derangement syndrome but then I woke up one day and realized that with a few exceptions he governed largely as a moderate. And because the Congress was overwhelmingly Republican during his administration, there was less expansion of government during that period than there had been the previous 50 years. |
Mephibosheth, You want executive experience? She was in charge of Bill Clinton’s health care initiative in what, 1993? Yes, it failed, and failed remarkably. Perhaps that indicates that she would be a failure in the executive, or perhaps she learned something from it. I don’t know whether she’s my first choice or not (although she exponentially higher on my list than Giuliani; for that matter, most–though not all–candidates on either ticket top Giuliani for me). But I have to confess I don’t understand the venemous anti-Hillaryism that seems to have held over in some quarters from, what, dislike of her husband 15 years ago? |
And the “broken windows” idea comes, believe it or not, from an article in the Atlantic Monthly 20 or 25 years ago. |
Mephibosheth,
I’ve heard bigger. Can you disprove his theory? He’s got lots of evidence across countries to back his theory up. Take a look at the accompanying graph. Fascinating trend, isn’t it. It raises a few questions regarding free agency too. If lead poisoning at an early age makes us more susceptible to violence later on, how does that affect accountability? |
And in other news, New York is still a pain in the butt to visit. All the areas business travelers and tourists visit may have been cleaned up, but we can’t generally tell… |
Anti-Hillaryism is just as venomous and ugly as anti-Bushism or anti-Reaganism; it’s just that it’s more tolerated because she’s a woman and the “rules of the game” don’t allow her to respond the way a man would. I had to rebuke my family for passing around an email that had as its punch line a joke about photographing Hillary’s death. It came from previous bishops. Is that where we are as a people/church that we consider murdering a former first lady and presidential candidate humor? |
As soon as I saw the title of the thread, I could hear Nibley whispering in my ear:
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I might think about voting for Senator Clinton if her husband hadn’t already been president for eight years, but if he hadn’t, then no one would be thinking of voting for her right now. The base of the Clinton campaign is people who agreed with Bill Clinton that it was a shame that the XXII Amendment prevented him from running for a third term. Any they’ve pulled in who wouldn’t want a third Bill Clinton term, but think a Mrs. Clinton term would be swell, are suckers. |
If those were my choices… Could I just pull the covers up over my head and make it all go away? |
Nathan, You can always cast a write in vote. I’ve thrown my vote away the last two presidential elections. I hope that I don’t have to this time around. |
I may have to re-think my opinion and stated respect for Hillary Clinton. I just saw a video where she was cackling away – only to get shut down by Obama’s retort. Her fake hysterical laughter is hideous … |
So Mark N, are you saying Romney should use his position to help build the kingdom? (Escapes tomatoes thrown by the ‘nacle.) Just kidding. |
So Mark N, are you saying Romney should use his position to help build the kingdom? He might as well, since I’m sure he won’t be getting my vote for President. |
Although I am a democrat, I would have a hard time voting for Hilary. I might vot for Guliani, even though I don’t think he is half as great as he thinks he is. Clinton is my senator and although I resent her presence in NY (as opportunistic), she has been a fine Senator. I just don’t think she will be a great President because she is so very devisive. And untrustworthy. |
I am voting for Obama and volunteering for his campaign here in NY. |
Giuliani is great period. He barely won his first term running against Dinkins but he was overwhelmingly reelected. A Republican picked up the vast majority of votes in 5to1 Democrat city. |
Well, if he’s the Republican candidate, I just might vote for him. Thanks, David. |
If that’s the choice, I’ll just go and shoot myself. |
David – Mussolini made the trains run on time, as the legend goes. We shouldn’t the blinding light of ends distract us from means and principles. Anybody doesn’t like him has a right to their opinion but their opinion is wrong. Welcome to the Bloggernacle… |
Actually New York is a manageable city, so that negates one of your arguments. The firefighters’ radios did not work because Giuliani failed to follow up on the reports from the 1993 World Trade Center bombing that stated that the radios needed to be updated. It was Giuliani’s responsibility to do so. He failed. Scratch that argument now. Giuliani and Kerik are like twins. Giuliani takes millions of dollars from Arabs through his private company. He refuses to talk about that. Hmmm, I wonder why. He cannot run a country, except into the ground. Anne, if you vote for Giuliani, you are voting for the failure of your country. He will be that great of a disaster. |
Dan, According to David, you are entitled to such a harsh opinion, but it is wrong. David does have a point, although it is crudely overbearing. Guiliani did a lot of great things in New York. We can always find something wrong with everyone. If finding those things easily dissuades you from supporting that candidate, my guess is you wouldn’t be voting. Would you ever consider a Republican a plausible candidate? Or is their party affiliation an embedded character flaw too great to overcome? |
