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Loved that last story. I just started visiting teaching an interesting lady (30 years sober) who runs the Addiction Recovery Program here (upstate NY). She does lots of AA stuff and the ARP has been around here only for a year. It was really interesting to hear her talk about the differences. She said they have really only had 2 people stick with the ARP program. I think it would be hard to get motivated to go to the church program because, at least around here, it is really not very anonymous–as a church member, you are going to see people you know there. Anyway–I look forward to learning more from her. Thanks for your side. |
“I said, “I’ve been holding hands with men in the program for ten years and I’ve never had an improper thought. You’re nuts.— All I can say is that locally we have a mens meeting of OA because the guys wanted to have a place where they didn’t get improper thoughts. One of my old partners from my last law firm, his church started a 12 step program for people who wanted to work the steps and get closer to God rather than as a response to any problems they were having. He likes it. We used to recruit lawyers from the bar association’s 12 step program after they had had at least a year of sobriety. Worked well for the firm. I’m glad I finally attended one. I’d sent clients to them for years without having a clue of what was going on, other than judges and disciplinary boards liked them. |
But how can you have an improper thought holding hands on one side with a guy and and a woman on the other side, saying the Serenity Prayer? I did have a problem once in AA because I was too affectionate to an older guy who I liked. I gave him a big hug when I ran into him at DI and boy he was after me after that. I think I handled it badly. After feeling groped several times, I said “NO! No Hugs!” and I think I embarrassed him. I know if I’d just said something quietly, he would have totally stopped. On the other hand, he had to have known what he was doing. Had to. I just gave him the wrong impression. Oh me. |
You very well might not. But if there’s one difference I’ve seen between men and women, it’s that most women will never understand how omnipresent sex is in many men’s minds — especially men who are under great duress as they try to get ahold of some personal problem like addiction. Have pity on us, your weaker brothers afflicted with lusts. |
My husband and I attended addiction recovery programs in Las Vegas and we never ended in the name of Jesus Christ. The ones we attended dealt specifically with pornography addiction and seemed a little hokey. The good thing that came of it was that it was a weekly topic and was up for discussion weekly- rather then feeling like I was nagging if I asked how things were going in that area. It didn’t seem very ‘anon’ when you attended a meeting in your stake, and ran into people in your ward. But it was helpful knowing that there were other women who were struggling supporting their husbands the same way that I was and that they were a safe place to talk out my feelings with someone who understood, but not betraying my husband’s confidence. |
Nathan, You don’t happen to have a membership at that Gold’s Gym in Provo, do you? |
Why, is there someone there notably lustful? (No, I don’t.) |
Honestly, you guys, after you’ve just spent 45 minutes discussing how God has helped you find sobriety and how much your life is screwed up, you’re going to focus on a woman’s hand while you’re saying The Lord’s Prayer? You know, if you’ve been arrested and your life is in the crapper due to alcohol and drugs, probably a womans hand is the last thing on your lustfulness list. Although I found myself quite attracted to a guy’s arms once. |
Oh, one thing that occurred to me is that maybe active Mormons who then find themselves screwed up might not feel comfortable in an AA setting. Maybe the “church” setting feels safer to those people. What a concept, huh?:) |
annegb, I think that the concern for some is that the LDS ARP (or whatever they call it) includes people with pornography addictions. |
Nathan, This is what my little joke was about. |
I’m a moron. Porn never entered my mind. Okay, I no longer object to the hand holdig ban in any way. |
Two thoughts: 1. I know several couples in my ward right now who have adopted through LDSSS, and have nothing but good things to say. A brother I home teach was adopted through LDSSS, and he and his wife are “expecting” their seconds LDSSS child. I can’t speak to annegb’s experiences, but the adopters I know swear by them (multiple people, multiple states, multiple wards). 2. I know two people who have attended addiction recovery through LDSSS. For one, it was an absolute success. For the other, it was horrible. Mostly because they held the meetings in our stake center, which was his ward building, and everyone in the room was from the stake. And this brother was not in a place where he was comfortable with everyone knowing his sin. In his eyes – it was between the bishop and him, and he shouldn’t have to parade his recovery in front of ward members who happened to be there when he came for a meeting (the mental calculus being, “hmm, he’s not here for YM/YW … and the only people in the building are those addicts…”). I think that LDSSS addiction recovery meetings should NOT be held in the person’s home stake center if at all possible (in North Texas, you don’t have to go that far to get to another stake center). Anonymity should be preserved, and I don’t think Church-sponsored sessions concern themselves that well with that. Just my observation, from two brothers I home taught who confided in me. |
But how can you have an improper thought holding hands on one side with a guy and and a woman on the other side, saying the Serenity Prayer? All I can say is that I know a group of guys who had enough trouble they meet at 7:00 a.m. on Saturday to avoid “the skirts.” Not to mention Bill W’s problems with the thirteenth step. LDSSS does a wonderful job as an adoption agency. In other areas it has a harder time finding a stride. Though http://kevinhinckley.com/ is the web page of our gospel doctrine teacher and he also manages the LDSSS 12 step program. I’ve wanted to go, just to see how he handles it, though that seems a bit intrusive. A couple times he has interjected twelve step concepts into lessons at our ward and it has gone very well. http://kevinhinckley.com/Gospel_Doctrine_Classes.html for his recent lessons. |
Annegb: I sympathize with your opinion about people being too “church-centered,” and not enough Christ-centered. I’ve heard local leaders admonish people who bear testimony about the truthfullness of the _church_ without making mention at all about _God_, and they tell them to add in testimony of God and Christ, because without them, the church is nothing. After all, the church is just a box that the gospel comes in, it is not the gospel itself. Back in my evangelical days, we called it “church-ianity versus Christianity.” Please cut some slack for the Molly Mormon and Peter Priesthood types. For many people the church is the center of their cultural and social life, not just their religious life. For them, the church often _is_ their life. |
Queuno: … and he shouldn’t have to parade his recovery in front of ward members who happened to be there when he came for a meeting (the mental calculus being, “hmm, he’s not here for YM/YW … and the only people in the building are those addicts…â€). That’s the problem in my stake too. Too many other things going on in the building at the same time. A better solution would be holding it somewhere OFF of church property, but unfortunately one of the RULES of ARP is that it HAS to be held ON church property. In the ward building were ours is held, they even put up “ARP” signs all over the building pointing to where the meeting is held, and leave the room’s doors open. There’s nothing anonymous or confidential about it. They won’t even have it at the LDSFS (LDS Family Services) offices, nor at the local Facilities Management office building where there are plenty of meeting rooms available. |
They won’t even have it at the LDSFS (LDS Family Services) offices, nor at the local Facilities Management office building where there are plenty of meeting rooms available. In our area it is held at the Bishop’s Storehouse. |
I believe you live in the same metroplex I do, Stephen M, but probably on the other side. On my side, you don’t get to go to the Bishop’s Storehouse if there’s a closer meeting. One of the individuals I mentioned specifically asked to go to the meetings at the Storehouse and it was denied. |
I’ll be Queno. I know absolutely nothing about the administration end of things. I guess I kind of just assumed that they let people just drop in. I’m gathering that you have to get a recommend or an interview or something, you just can’t show up? I’d suggest that the guy try again, go to http://kevinhinckley.com/ and drop him a message using the contact form telling him you heard he moderates a twelve-step program and would like to attend and need directions and times. That should take care of it for a while. Got to admit that there is a lot I don’t know (e.g. I didn’t know that the bar association’s group was a twelve-step program, just that judges liked it. I remember telling a client she had to attend it — “but I’m in a twelve step group where I live” — and, sure enough, I think it made a difference in her case). I downloaded the Church’s manual, but haven’t gotten around to reading it. Guess I ought to some time. So much to read. |
anne,
Yes. Are you kidding? |
Queno, you’re right about the anonymity deal. One reason that I’m very open is that I want to encourage others, validate them and without urging them to have the same openness, let them know they’re not alone. Our meeting is in a small room in a private corner of another stake center. Maybe it’s the high council room. There are four meetings here, so people can go to different buildings than are in their stake. Stephen, you’re right. I’ve heard good things about adoption; other programs struggle. This 12 step program is fledgling and they’re still finding their way. One huge mistake I feel they make is lumping all problems together in one room with their relatives who are struggling to deal with the addictions of the loved one. That’s a pretty dangerous combination. Especially, I would think, if you have someone with a sex addiction problem (that just strikes me odd somehow :) in the same room as a person who was sexually abused. I just can see all kinds of possibilities for disaster. I, of course, being who I am, intend to write them about all my observations and drive them crazy about their shortcomings. It’s always good to have a big non-entity organization to gripe at about something. Gets the frustration out LOL. A total aside, but I’d bet you $25 if we asked them, the Presbyterians would let us use their building for our meetings. They’d even make us keys to get in any time we want and let us use the kitchen! I love those guys. |
a random John, This is what I get for not paying attention to the local news. Frankly, in my gym-going days I always considered the view one of the perks, but… |
The PASG (pornography addiction support groups) in our area are segregated by sex. Many men struggling with sexual addiction issues have difficulty avoiding objectifying women. Part of what makes the segregated PASG meetings “safe” or “more safe” for them is that, during that hour, it is easier to avoid objectifying women in the room because there are no women there. I would add that most nondenominational 12 step meetings for sexual addiction (SA, SAA, SLAA, etc) in our area are also segregated by sex. There is hugging at the end of nondenominational meetings, and in the sex-segregated PASG meetings. For some individuals though, hugging is not healthy, and thus it is important to be sure any hugging is with permission. There are some nondenominational meetings for recovery from sexual addiction that are “coed”, and I know of a handful of LDS PASG meetings that are as well. In our area, ARP and PASG meeting sharing by individuals does not close “in the name of Jesus,” but closes in the more AA manner, “with this I’ll pass” or the like. I was surprised to attend meetings in other areas where the closing of each share was in Jesus’ name. The ARP and PASG meetings are more church-focused, rather than God-focused, when compared to the nondenominational meetings. On the other hand, the ARP and PASG meetings are more God, repentance, forgiveness and redemption oriented than most regular church meetings. As one group leader put it at last year’s ARP SLS conference, “The ARP meetings are sort of like priesthood meeting, but with the spirit there.” I agree with Anne and wonder about wisdom of the combining of different addictions in the same meeting. The jury is still out on that issue as far as I am concerned. I would note that sexual addiction issues have been separated out into the PASG groups for a few years (although sexual/pornography addicts may attend ARP meetings). |
I’ll be Queuno. I know absolutely nothing about the administration end of things. Still scratching my head to know what that means. :) I haven’t had to deal with this on a personal level; I just know from what I’ve heard from two individuals involved in it, you can’t just drop in. Maybe it works in different areas. I did hear that one of the local university institutes runs a PAR program that allows for drop-ins (since there are no singles wards associated with the university, they don’t have a way to check things on an ecclesiastical level). |
In Las Vegas (which is my only experience with this) drop ins were allowed. You were encouraged to attend wherever you felt most comfortable. We did attend in our stake and had been referred to the program by our bishop- but he gave us a sheet that showed times/locations for all the meetings in the valley. Our group did sessions with the spouse three weeks of the month and then the fourth week we split into addict/spouse groups. We didn’t know about the program until our bishop told us about it- but shortly after starting our ward had a 5th Sunday combined meeting about LDSFS and the services they offered and a sheet containing times and locations was given to everyone. |
Thank you, David H. for the ammunition :). Now I can say, “Oh, I noticed hugging (and I did) at the end and beginning of the meeting. How do you feel about that, huh?” |
“I’ll be” Steve said to Queuno. “I know absolutely nothing about the administration end of things and was surprised to find out that it wasn’t as casual and drop in oriented as a usual 12 step program” Sorry I was so terse. |
Gotcha. No, it seems that the Church has some rules. They may not want non-members attending, for instance, I don’t know. And I’ve known some jerks before who would be the type to just go so that they could find out who from Church was there… |
Re: drop-ins refer to the FAQs hyperlink at the bottom of this page with links to the lists of meeting locations and times: http://www.providentliving.org/content/list/0,11664,4177-1,00.html No referral is necessary. A person need not be a Church member or even a potential or former Church member to attend. As I mentioned, though, most of the PASG meetings are sex-segregated. While the FAQs don’t expressly state this, the only real requirement to participate is a desire to stop destructive addictive behavior. In our area, stake presidents and bishops are welcome to attend, although they rarely do. If they come, though, the requirement is that they are treated the same way as everyone else–no titles, first name only, no giving of advice, keep everything confidential and anonymous. Anne, the first time someone comes to a PASG meeting, he sees brethren giving each other hugs (or “abrazos”) at the end of the meeting. We typically just shake the newcomer’s hand, or sometimes ask if he is okay with a hug, and leave it up to him. We do have a couple of brothers who continue to prefer handshakes, which is perfectly fine. This is also fairly consistent with the nondenominational 12-step meetings in the area for recovery from sexual addiction. While there are some brothers who participate in PASG meetings who also participate in nondenominational meetings, there are some who do not, and vice versa. I suspect the same is true of ARP generally. That is, I think there are a number of our brothers and sisters who need recovery meetings but, for whatever reason, only feel “safe” or comfortable in an LDS Church-related setting. I believe ARP and PASG help meet that need. I do not think ARP and PASG are inherently better or worse than the nondenominational recovery meetings. Both types of meetings meet important needs, and I am glad for them. |
I knew a lot of very spiritual people in NA back when I was a missionary. I went to a party for someone who I think was celebrating three clean years. I think that there are a lot of problems with the Foster Program that are state run from what I have heard. As someone said once, the state makes a poor parent. I think it is horrible when you remove a person from an abuse situation and put them in an abuse situation. I have never been in a Foster home myself. I saw a documentary where this girl who may have been mentally retarded was neglected severely by her dad(I think tied to a bed). Then, they were doing all sorts of IQ tests on her and she was showing increase in IQ, but all her practice with the test may have made it invalid. She was so sweet though and touched hearts. After her time was up with a study, the family whom she was living with turned her back into the system. She was put in a home where they abused her when she threw up. They way I remember it, she said she was not going to talk through her mouth. I think she knew some sign language and would sign. She seemed to associate opening her mouth with throwing up. I thought it was terrible that of all people that they could not see to it that she had a very good home to take care of her. She was like an angel and so pure and so dependent on others for their care. I am thinking at the moment that I count my blessings that I was never in Foster Care. Annegb, I think that once you get to know the people there and why they are there that the boundaries will probably come down. It is kind of funny how people used to think that I came from such an ideal background. Well, I did for some of my life. It was so ideal. But I just listened to them never feeling it was right to share what I experienced at the time generally. I have never been to a 12 Step Meeting, but have vented a lot on blogs. Thanks for those who let me do so on their blogs–Annegb and Stephen and Sarebear! |
Check the links below for some fascinating info and pictures about the Big http://aaholygrail.com/3.html http://aaholygrail.com/1.html passing along what a friend found for me. |
I have been active in the ARP program for nearly 3 years. I am also active in NA as I am a drug addict. I recognized after about the 2nd week of ARP that it was not going to get me, or keep me clean, but I kept attending as I felt I needed the gospel in my recovery. We have mixed groups in my area dealing with all addictions. My experience has been that porn addicts and sex addicts rarely get and/or stay clean. Drug addicts and alcoholics only get and stay clean if they attend NA or AA but not by only attending ARP. It seems that the participants are rather transient coming for a week or even a few weeks and not coming back. There is NO anonymity in the program. Church members seem to have a penchant for gossiping and I have seen some real damage done because of it. I do not feel completely hopeless for the program but it is close. |
I have attended 2 other 12 step programs and the ARP programs here in Nevada (but not where you went). I was apprehensive because people from the 1st LDS based program badmouthed some of the things in ARP. I can tell you that I love this program. I don’t think the missionaries understand totally at first unless they are working the steps. But I have always known love from them. I feel the Spirit strongly in the meetings, and we have people not of our faith there as well. It’s wonderful. I think the people running it where you are are off-base. We are more careful about body contact with the opposite sex in the church, but there is nothing wrong in holding hands. I think it’s wonderful actually to mention the name of the God we worship in prayer and know it is through Him that we are pulled from our addiction rather than discuss a higher power. People in recovery in other programs are wonderful and spiritual, and I love them. I learn so much from them. I think the Big Book teaches us to pray for those that we feel misjudge us and realize they are sick as we are. You are still suffering from your childhood and concern of what others think of you. God loves you no matter what. |
I have been involved in both programs for a number of years and have seen the meetings go through changes. It is the best ever right now with many people in different stages of their addictions. I think the comfort level of the group leaders is key to the way the group functions as a whole. Some leaders are not knowledgeable about addiction and some are.. but one thing I can say is that for the first time in my life, I am feeling like there is hope for my addictions. I really do know that Jesus Christ is the only one who can actually change human nature. I am no molly…but it seems that with the right attitude and less judgement, i was able to heal much faster and to feel the spirit. the command that some group leaders have on the scriptures and the inspirational words kept me going from week to week and made it possible for me to get through my weeks one day at a time.. |
I have attended ARP in Scotland, as well as AA. I have found the ARP more helpful because of the spiritual aspect. A lot of people in the AA sem to hate God and prayer, or are very unhappy for one reason or another. ARP strikes me as more positive. Since I’ve joined our small group, four people have gained temple recommends and at least two have been endowed. Seeing a whole bunch of us in temple was a great thing, and everyone looked so happy! I’ve seen some of these people in “dark spaces”, and in happier times, and it does work for some people. The problem we have is the format! |
I think it’s wonderful that you have found recovery in the church program….and that our church is directly addressing the issues surrounding addiction. I still believe that the church falls short when attempting to address social issues, but I, too, know many people who do well in the church’s 12 step groups. I disagree with your basic premise, though, unfavorably comparing AA. Different strokes for different folks. The friends I have in AA are very happy in their recovery, but they couch their progress in different terms, so it might appear, to the religious, to be more negative. Also, I don’t know any true “A’s” who hate God OR prayer. We all know we need those aspects of life to make it. We just don’t follow the rules as to what others expect us to believe God—or prayer–are (is?). And, too, getting a recommend does not happiness or recovery make. It’s a step….maybe a tangible pat on the back that the person seeking a different life has made progress. Viewing it as an end or an indication of happiness defeats the purpose of recovery programs. I know a lot of really unhappy temple recommend holders. And some really awful people who have recommends. Again, recovery can be found in the church’s programs and I’m glad you have found it. But don’t dismiss AA out of hand because it didn’t speak to you. It sure did to me and frankly, that’s where I found God. |
I been attending meeting and yes i dont much like the signs they put up but at least the building is ualually emoty when they do it, I Just drop in do different meeting where ever is easist more me that day and I’ve never has a problem. |
I have been attending the ARP here in Seattle for the past year and a half. Finally making progress in my porn addiction. Mixed meetings which works fine as an addiction can be to anything. Truly inspiring program as all recovery programs are but fully based on the Savior and the Atonement to help us truly come to him and receive the help we need. Our meeting has outside separate entrance to a basement area and anonymity is a fundamental principle in keeping all within the meetings but it has never concerned me what others think as we are all on the path to overcome our weaknesses whatever the might be. In a talk at General Conference one of the speakers related how as a bishop he looked on the congregation and saw each one struggling with something unknown to the rest. It’s our relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ that is most important and makes the difference |
THOM, my heart goes out to you. Different strokes for different folks and you’re absolutely right that our relationship with our God is primary. I think one thing these meetings do right is stress grace, which we as LDS people tend to ignore in favor of working ourselves into eternal life. :) |
I’m attending the LDS support group for co-dependents. I went because I heard that it was for all members of the church. Everyone is co-dependent who has not had a complete transformation- a heart transfusion through Christ. The new book we use is “Healing through Christ”. I feel such love, power to save, and clarity that comes from hearing the truth from God when we read it and use it to repent. Every soul is in need of repentance. My sister’s husband has been put in as Bishop of a ward where 50% are struggling with some addiction. He gives advice but he has no understanding. Many members of the ward are VERY ANGRY with him and my sister. I believe that anyone put in as a Bishop or Stake President would really benefit from working the 12 steps in “Healing through Christ”. Actually everyone would, however a lot of the bad feeling that comes between “active” and “nonactive” members is a simple misunderstanding. God is no respector of persons. He doesn’t view one person as better because they are “active” and another as garbage because he is “inactive”. We are all in the same boat. All of us need a change of heart. Going to church meetings helps because we can take the sacrament but if we don’t do it with a sincere heart it’s like we never went at all. I am grateful that I listened and went to LDS 12 steps. Half of the ladies are there because their children and grandchildren are addicts and these sisters are looking for peace. The other half are like me, we use the program as our repentance steps every week. I want to do it forever. I’m giving the book to all my ssiters because I love them. |