Devyn, aren’t there genetic components to clinical depression? Oops.

Can anyone with a touch more time than I have point Devyn to the myriad Bloggernacle posts about this Utah/anti-depressants issue that have been fought out in the past?

John, I know it has been fought out in the past, but people throw anecdotal data at it. I think that somewhere someone must have done some research that gets to the bottom of it instead of anecdotal reasons.

Maybe this is a contributing factor: The birth rate in Utah is very high. Post partum depression affects A LOT of women. So, you have a baby and feel depressed and get hooked on prescription meds. (Happened to my sister)

I am sure there are a lot of other things that add to it. Like people putting to much on their plate. (church callings, work, family, finishing up school..and and and)

From the study itself:

Although Utah continued to be the
state with the highest prevalence of
antidepressant use, it had one of the lowest
rate increases of any state (2.4%) between
2000 and 2006.

The “Good, Better, Best” talk must have worked. Yeah, that explains it.

I’m gonna have to second what Wm Morris said, without more information about ExpressScripts it means absolutely nothing. Does ExpressScripts include any information on the geographical market share?

Hopefully this isn’t the source of the weirdly durable, in the absence of real data “Utah is the most depression medicated state” meme.

I Googled it and found that a number of apparent references to earlier annual ExpressScripts information releases, here and here. Seems like it all started with a similarly unquestioned reports in 2001 and 2002.

I did find a BYU study and a Deseret News article refuting the idea that Utah consumes anti-depressants at rates greater than the national average.

I’m fairly new to the bloggernacle, so I haven’t been in on a lot of Utah/ anti-depressant conversations.

I can’t help but be embarrassed of the hypocrisy of the church implied in these studies, as John in #4 alluded to. Exactly how much of the studies results can be attributed to church culture is up for debate, but it would be naive to think that the amount is insignificant.

Society tells us that the involvement of alcohol in social situations is expected, and in fact makes the situations more enjoyable. And let’s face it – with all the problems that overuse of alcohol brings, a lot of reasonable people think that it plays a positive role in their life. LDS seem to have found their answer to a social lubricant – a chemical solution to mental and social health problems.

I may be overstating the issue – maybe we’re not that much worse than everyone else on this. But if we truly believed in the spirit of the WOW as it is taught now, we would take a lot less anti-depressants that everyone else.

LL

Doesn’t change the fact that all the articles apparently cite the ExpressScripts reports, which in turn states “percentage of insured people using Express Scripts in each state.”

The US News article that is linked in the original post and the older CBS story and the SL Tribune article all seem to refer back to these meaningless numbers.

Is there any proof at all that Utah uses or has ever used prescription antidepressants at above average rates?

Off-topic, but hey, that is what I do best.

There have been a lot of great conference talks about this, such as Good, Better, Best. I have also noticed an upswing in talks about life balance and chilling out a little when it comes to callings. But for all of those talks, the church has not eliminated meetings or responsibilities. If they want to really make an impact, they need to do more than just talk.

Anybody else find it interesting that the anti-anti-depressant studies were done by BYU and reported in Deseret News?

MAC – check out the link I sent.

dpc – exactly my question – are docs in Utah more likely to write a script for depression? However, I am doing a project at work looking at the size of the depressed population in the US and it is in the 6% range. So at 18% Utah is very high.

LL/tired mormon – of course BYU would be tasked with refuting the data. Unfortunately, as LL points out the analysis by BYU was pretty quick and dirty and, therefore, flawed.

I think DPC is hitting close to one of the factors that the study can’t cover for: “Self-medication” by alcohol. Common wisdom among psychologists these days is that a lot of alcohol use (and abuse) relates directly to untreated depression, so in a state where the dominant cultural religion strongly discourages alcohol use, I would expect (and heartily hope) to see more prescribed antidepressants.

Thanks John – I think that is an interesting finding. Of course, we know antidepressants lead to higher suicide rates in teens.

TOTLN – interesting – isn’t alcohol a depressant though? I would think you would see people self medicating with uppers?

dpc – interesting point. We Americans love our drugs. Someone has to supplement the pharmaceutical companies.

More anecdotal data:

I am a convert to the Church. I am a Hispanic. I never felt consistent depression before I was a member. Since I became a member of the Church, depression is a constant part of my life. I have never taken anti-depressants. Here are some glitches from my life that may explain my increased depression and how it correlates with being a Mormon:

Since I became a member of the church, it is as if a dark cloud would linger over my head reminding me constantly that: I am inadequate; if something has gone wrong in my life, it is because “I didn’t have enough faith that it would be otherwise,” or “I am so imperfect that it is a lesson I need to learn,” or “my situation in this life is contingent on how inadequate I was in the pre-existence, therefore, there are some blessings I am simply not entitled to because I wasn’t good enough.”

I have to bow my head and accept racist/unfair remarks that Church leaders (Prophets and Apostles) have made, because Church leaders are the “mouthpieces of God,” therefore, whatever they say is how God feels about me. I cannot oppose any of these views because I would be opposing God and therefore I would be a heretic apostate.

I bear a curse due to my Hispanic heritage, due to the wrongdoings of some ancestors I never even knew existed. I am a bearer of the “lesser” blessing of Manasseh, according to my patriarchal blessing. I am not considered for any leadership Church callings, because there is always a Caucasian counterpart that would do the job better than me. I am Hispanic, therefore I have, to a certain extent, the “lamanite curse:” I am dark and loathsome, and therefore I am not reliable.

I pay full tithing, yet I have had many financial problems and at one point I had to live of my car, eat one McDonalds 99 cent hamburger three times a day. This probably means that I don’t “faithfully” pay my tithing, or once again, “I needed to learn something,” or “material blessings are not for me because I wasn’t good enough in the pre-existence.”

I cannot express any of these feelings in public, because that would be apostasy or in the case of disagreeing with Church leaders it would be “speaking against the Lord’s anointed,” therefore I have to swallow them and put a smile on my face.

My family became members of the church thanks in part to the pressuring of a numbers-hungry missionary. They got baptized without ever having a testimony of the Church, now they are inactive. Because they have “made covenants with God” and have not kept them, they are living in sin. I won’t be able to be sealed to them in a ceremony in the temple; therefore, I will not be allowed to remain with them as a family in the next life.

I am single and last week I was again rejected by a woman from my ward to go out for a lunch date (or any type of date for that matter). It is numbing because this is basically my dating life for the last 10 years. This means chances are I will never be able to marry in the temple. Therefore the uncertainty lingers over my head that I will be an eternal single “ministering angel,” ministering to those that attained a “superior glory” because they got married.

As for the good, better, best talk… well, I am clearly out of the scope of those three terms. Since I will be lonely in the afterlife, even if I am “perfect” enough for the “Celestial Kingdom,” it seems pointless to try to get there. Therefore, sometimes I think gathering what is left of my money, purchasing a gun and blowing my brains is not that terrible of an idea. Loneliness may be better in the “Telestial Kindom,” than in the “Celestial Kingdom,” where I would have to witness and minister to all the people there with “superior glory,” thus increasing my unhappiness.

And such is my Mormon life.

MAC – Express scripts only included states for which they had a large enough sample to be relevant. They do cover 15% of the US population so it is not an insignficant amount of the country. In addition, I would disagree that there is no proof. This data clearly says that for Expressscripts customers, Utahns take anti-depressants at a much higher rate than customers from other states. That is a data point in and of itself and, likely, however, not definitive of a trend.

As for the 6% rate that is a one year incidence rate, while the prevalence rate is nearer to 15%. I did not want to get too complex, but there you have it.

Dang. My last paragraph is in response to the previous paragraph, which is a quote from MAC’s #28.

So what. When a chapter of Mothers Against Driving While on Prozac forms in my neighborhood, I’ll be concerned. Not before.

Funny, I just so happen to be starting a Fathers Against Utah Moms Having Cell-Phone Conversations While Backing Up Their Toyota Sequoias chapter here.

I think there is more to the alcohol prohibition than the physical safety of others. Driving high on pot has been shown to be relatively safe – should we be allowed to smoke a doobie every once in a while?

This makes as much sense as saying that if we truly believed the WOW, we would take less Tylenol than everyone else.

It sounds like you are saying that emotional and self-worth issues should be afforded the same “thumbs-up” access to drugs as physical pain is given in the WOW. I’m not talking about obvious chemical imbalances here. Many doctors WILL NOT HESITATE to medicate their patients if emotions issues are brought up in a visit.

I guess it comes down to if you believe a component of the WOW is avoiding addictive substances that alter our state of mind, because I think that a strong case could be made that some anti-depressant use would fall into that category. Personally, I don’t have a problem with people taking anti-depressants at all, just as I don’t have a problem with people drinking a glass of wine after dinner. (Even though I’ll continue to abstain from alcohol until the church changes it’s stance.) Both are perfectly healthy when consumed with careful moderation.

LL – I tend to disagree with that. The FDA has given a suicidality black box warning to all antidepressants used to treat teens. The data may not be absolute but certainly are trending enough to suggest that there is a link. Enough that FDA has acted.

#27 Elusive, that is one of the most profound things I’ve ever read anywhere. And saddest. I might disagree with you, dpc. She has a point.

Are you saying you think people in general are depressed and stressed out? Actually, one of my (many)pyschics told me time is going very fast these days and that’s a way of everything coming together.

I’m depressed and I live in Utah. I think I’d be less depressed in New York or New Jersey. Maybe because I could go to downtown New York once a month and scream out loud and nobody would notice.

I spoke with Bookslinger and a lady who was waiting tables at Little America’s brunch on this subject in the last month. Both agreed that it’s a lot different in other states. “It” in my conversation with Bookslinger being the church and “it” with the non-Mormon waitress (who’d lived here for 30 years) basic society. She made the comment about how people just go crazy over a person having a cup of coffee. “It’s just a cup of coffee!” She laughed.

I’m with both of them. Well, I haven’t really lived as a Mormon outside of Utah, but it’s darn hard here, especially if you’re a bit different.

Utah’s high use of thyroid medicine could be contributed to the downwinder’s thing–nuclear fallout is for real.

I don’t know stats but I know a lot of people on antidepressants. My own depression is probably less related to environmental issues and more to uh…trying to sound intelligent here, my mind is blank….hard wiring?

But like #1 said, we’ve done this subject.

annegb:

I have members of my family who are Hispanic Mormons who do not suffer from depression. I have other family members who suffer from depression and bipolar disorder. Some of them belong to religions other than Mormonism. It’s easy to point the finger at Mormonism, but depression is a lot more complicated than that. Mormonism may be a contributing factor (and to the extent that Elusive’s depression is caused by it, I feel deep sorrow for him), but there are other factors at work as well, such as chemical imbalances, genes, pessimistic outlook in general, etc.

Blaming Mormonism while failing to look at other factors is short-sighted and may possible inhibit recovery from depression. Feel free to disagree with me on that, as it is only my (possibly wrong) opinion.

But I’ve also found that life in general is pretty disappointing. Sure you have good moments, but you have to slog through a lot of negative experiences while you hope for the next good thing.

UH,

Elusive is joining us from the DAMU boards for fun and enjoyment today. I would rec deleting the post to be honest.

Everyone knows that DAMUites are the Debbie Downers of the Bloggernacle. We should welcome their refreshing remarks and possible play some kind of muted trumpet noise whenever they post something.

Elusive, If you’re not already on this side of the country, please move East of the Mississippi river and discuss those issues with a priesthood leader at the stake level.

People in MA work themselves to death, while in the South they bore themselves to death. I can’t figure out why the depression rate would be so much higher.

No. People in the South may look bored, but it’s really that we’re just secretly glad we don’t live in MA. It’s wonderful to live in a part of the country, for instance, where we actually can help decide elections. People migrate southward for new opportunity. We’ve learned to be mellow and have Yankees doing our bidding.

Then again, I’m speaking more about Texas and less about the South.

I’ve never taken medication, but I have association with many who do. Mental illness is no joke. The people I know who have mental illness get it from their family. It runs in families. Once again, I am talking about people I personally know. Three suicides in one family in the last 20 years. Well educated, successful people. When they move into severe depression medication helps but its a crap shoot trying to find the right medicine, it takes time.

For those of you who joke about this I want to let you know there is nothing funny about it.

I know that some GA take medication. Not long ago a Bishop took his life when the pressures of life overcame him. Apparently, when the depression gets severe the thinking is that everyone would be better off without them and so they do the right thing and end life with their own hand.

There are all kinds of mental illnesses I’ve described on kind. I watched a fine sister die a month ago because she got to a place where she thought it was best to end things because she hurt so bad and wanted to spare her family the pain she was causing them. Very active fine lady.

Just to add, in case the “no joking matter” comment was addressed in part to my pot joke –

I’ve been taking a generic Wellbutrin for close to four years. It probably saved my life.

Maybe, if the data are indicative of an overall practice, anti-depressants are over-prescribed in Utah. However, it may be possible that more people are actually getting treatment for their mental illness there, which is a GOOD thing.

ahem.
Why do you people insist on making this a capital case?

Elusive,
I have a href=”http://mormonmd.wordpress.com/2008/01/13/depression-a-disordered-mind-body-and-soul/”>some reading that I hope you might find helpful.

Elusive – I think many have addressed your comments. I would agree that your post is littered with false doctrine. If you throw out the false doctrine, that would make your life easier. Then combine that with not giving a damn about what some other well meaning misinformed fools tell you and you will be on the way to more happiness. Finally, move East. I hope that you will find some happiness in your life.

Doc – what do mean a “capital case”?

Fair point Bookslinger, however, it is certainly interesting that Utah’s rates are so high. However, it could be multitude of factors as have been laid out in various comments. We also know that antidepressants are used in Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, General Anxiety Disorder, Seasonal Affective Disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and a host of other depression and anxiety related disorders. So either the people in Utah are being better managed and treated by physicians or there are higher rates of the disorders. The data don’t tell us that.

Have any of these studies controlled for Mormon/Non-Mormon populations in Utah? Maybe its all the non-mormons who are depressed from living on the “outside” in Mormon-dominated Utah.

That said, the only times I’ve really felt depressed in my life where when I lived in Utah, so maybe there’s something to it…

Devyn,
I mean the idea that treating depression or diagnosing it means “something’s wrong” That is the attitude I see over and over and over again and it betrays an ignorance of the causes and “blame” for depression. Please realize all this harping does is drive the problem underground. Then people don’t get help, hit the bottle, commit suicide etc. Nobody seems to consider the effect pointing fingers will have on the problem itself. Ann is exactly right, celebrate treating depression, don’t stigmatize it.

Just a comment in response to Elusive. First,I can confirm that bigotry towards Hispanics and Native Americans does exist in pockets of the Mormon church, especially in certain small Mormon communities. This bigotry has been justified by some Mormons by using the Book of Mormon (personal experience). Luckily, this is a bias that is dying out, but it is still holding out in a few places. Second, if you are already feeling insecure, it is really hard to read Nephi in the Book of Mormon, and not get really sick of all the “white and delightsome” and “dark and loathsome” phrases used to describe the Nephites and the Lamanites. I just insert “white and pastey” and “dark and beautiful” whenever I read those phrases. I do agree with MAC that Hispanic does not equal Lamanite curse, but that belief is still alive and well in certain communities (in fact my brother-in-law refers to Hispanics as Lamanites). Regardless of whether the Lamanite curse refers to Hispanics or not, the dark and loathsome passages are still troubling. Personally, I think that those words are Nephi’s words. Incidentally, if Nephi’s people did not mix with the Lamanites due to their bigotry, that simply means Nephi’s descendants were utterly destroyed rather than having a few survive due to mixing with the Lamanites. I wonder if the curse is for both the Nephites and the Lamanites. And finally, if you are of the tribe of Manasseh, it is easy to get really tired of the “Ephraim is the most blessed tribe” Sunday School discussions.
Despite all of these problems that do exist in certain pockets of the church, I do agree with the others that those problems are false doctrine. There are many church leaders out there who are of the tribe Manasseh. You should not be passed up for a leadership position because you are of the tribe Manasseh, but I know there are Mormon communities where this happens. I also I know of a certain Mormon community that had been very clearly chewed out by the visiting General Authority during Stake Conference for their bigotry towards Native Americans and Hispanics. I can only hope that this tongue lashing will extend to your stake soon. Just be prepared when members of your stake start muttering that the General Authority was not inspired on that day.

Finally, just a comment to MAC, are you northern New Mexican, or have you been listening to northern New Mexicans? Most northern New Mexicans are really proud of their genealogy, and will tell you at at length about their Basque, French and Spanish ancestors-but most also have a line or two they know little about. If that line is recent enough and you manage to find a picture of the mystery ancestor, that person often will look exactly like a Pueblo Indian. If you want to start a fight with certain northern New Mexicans, just suggest that since great-great grandma looked like a Taos Pueblo Indian, plus she was fluent in Tiwa and all her friends were Pueblo Indian, then just maybe she might have been a Pueblo Indian. Trust me, fireworks are destined to erupt. I am always amazed that northern New Mexicans are able to believe that despite living 400 plus years in close proximity to Pueblo Indians, that not a single one of them ended up with a drop of Pueblo blood.

Lynne,

First, not to threadjack, I know that racism exists in and out of the Church. I was just commenting that Elusive’s comments sound inauthentic to my sometimes tin ear. If I am wrong I am wrong.

I can only partially claim northern New Mexican, of the Rio Grand variety (not those Texans out in Tucumcari or those Mormons in Kirtland). I have been reading about the crypto-jewish influences in northern New Mexican catholic practices, very interesting. We have a friend who’s mom and aunts, from Penasco, had their marriages arraigned and that was in the 40′s, it is truly a different place. I have to admit that just mentioning the word Tiwa makes my mouth water, makes me think of feast days and pinon smoke.

I wonder, though, if we are missing the “good news” the gospel is supposed to bring when we discuss how depressed we feel by certain aspects of Mormon life.

If we believe that Jesus saves, that He loves us all, and that we cannot be perfect in this life, why are we depressed? What erroneous message are we taking from our meetings and church activity?

I know those are more like “Should we kill the puppy or should we love little dogs” stupid people questions, but perhaps if we just redirected our thinking slightly, just slightly, we might be able to lift our spirits.

I’m not arguing positive thinking as a cure-all for depression. I think it’s certainly a worthwhile concept and one we should use more, although it’s pretty hard for me to do when I’m in the depths of that despair that hits me periodically. But if I said, “My laundry is done, I smiled at a friend, I paid my tithing and have food in the pantry. I’m doing the very best I can and God loves me for it” instead of “My house is a mess and I need to lose ten pounds and I haven’t read the Book of Mormon in two weeks and I hate my neighbor…” maybe I wouldn’t be so down.

Negative, comparing thinking has a lot to do with the depression among Mormons, IMHO. Not that I am the very model of positive thinking.

dpc,
Ironic or true, but drug induced? Or perhaps it’s a product of working on what it takes, with the help of counselors, spiritual advisors, and doctors, to be happy? Sadly, the last one is dismissed out of hand because we all KNOW depression has to have an external social cause. (While I do think culture is a small part of the mosaic, even then I don’t see railing on it fixing anything.)

This is what I can’t stand, the condemning of the culture that someone lives in as a cause depression and therefore evil. Come on, it’s way more complex than that. While it may help you feel self righteous and superior, it does NOTHING for those suffering.

Anne – thanks for your comment. That is how I feel. The gospel is not to depress us. Sometimes things in it (or people) frustrate me, but it is not the Gospel. I like your approach – see the good things in it and do what we can to eliminate the bad.

Lynne,

Sorry, this is becoming a total threadjack.

My grandmother used to say that she knew which kids had been initiated into the penitentes moradas by whether or not they took their shirts off when playing basketball, to hide the scars from self-flagellation.

There was a historical biography recently published, and I have lost the reference, which detail a spanish girl growing up on the Rio Puerco, near Cabezon, and part of it included her interactions with the Mormon settlers there. I think it was published by UNM.

Have you read about the Los Lunas decalogue? A must lookup for any one interested in New Mexico history and mormonism.

And in case you didn’t click through…

Mormon women not more depressed than national average

I think there are legitimate grounds to think that Church activity brings a mixed emotional bag. There are great blessings, true, but also a great deal of pressure (both from within and without) and pockets of prejudice against numerous groups (gays, Hispanics, singles, etc.). But I think that it is unlikely that we’ll ever agree to what extent membership/activity in the Church is a cure for/cause of depression. What is more frightening to me is that some of the depressed in Utah are not Mormons, but need anti-depressants because they live among so many Mormons. Looks like we don’t make such good neighbors.

Does anyone factor in that anti-depressants are used for more than depression?

Prozac and other anti-depressants are actually used pretty regularly on ADHD patients. And ADD kids are more likely to get medicated than adults. Utah has more kids…

I’d be interested in seeing the statistical comparison of medications for ADHD in Utah as compared to elsewhere before I’d make any conclusions on depression.

Cgutta,
I’ll simplify it for you. When Mormons need help, they get help. People who would angrily denounce Mormonism based on medication seem to be saying it is bad to get help. This is wrong.

I apologize if I seem a little on edge. This undying subject really, really sets me off. I need to go meditate and practice breathing.

I think I just chalk it up to the fact that Mormons are trying hard to improve themselves and that with their eternal perspective, might sometimes be more honest about their problems and be trying to fix them.

I can’t believe, for instance, there’s any less pressure to fit an ideal in Utah than there is in North Texas. I just think there may be less denial in Utah on that matter, and if takes some AD medication to help with that, I’m OK with it.

Mormons are NOT more depressed than anyone else. On the contrary, data show very clearly that active Latter-day Saints have lower risk of depression and suicide. For details see http://www.blackoasis.us/kevin.htm in addition to the articles referenced above by others.

Elusive,
You remind me of some people who grow up in the church, and who were fed a lot of false-doctrine in the Young Men’s/Young Women’s program.

(I realize you’re male, but) there are women in the Single Adult program of the church who act as if they were taught in YW that the Lord was going to hand them a husband on a silver platter, as if they were _owed_ a husband, and they were ticked that they weren’t married by their late 20′s. They blame it on the men, they blame it on the church, they blame it on the Lord.

I don’t know what it is, and I’ve never read the YM/YW manuals, but I can’t imagine that the church is formally teaching false doctrine to the kids in the manuals. If it’s going on, it must be added in by the YM/YW teachers/advisors. As an adult convert, sometimes listening to people who grew up in the church, it seems like some of them grew up in a different church. Fortunately, not all the “lifers” spout false doctrine.

Not having grown up in the church, I don’t know what’s taught to the youth. My guess is that a lot of it is so simplified or dumbed-down, that it gets turned into false doctrine. As I understand it, the YM/YW manuals are not actually given to the kids. It’s just the adults who use them to prepare lessons.

I just re-read your first comment here on this , and I can see how you picked up some of those ideas, but many of those ideas about doctrine are just wrong. Either you or your teachers really twisted or misinterpreted some scriptures to come up with those ideas. Things are not as absolute as you indicated.

For instance, if people don’t get sealed in this life, that’s what temple work is for. Moreover, if God can provide spouses in order to exalt all the people who died before they turned 8 years old, then God can provide spouses to adults who die in the church without having had a chance to marry. Or, as the GA’s often say : “Those who remain single through no fault of their own will not be denied any blessings.” The only people who seem to be ruled out (which is what Section 132 sometimes is interpreted to mean by “rejecting” the temple sealing covenant) are the ones who reject legitimate opportunities to marry a worthy compatible person.

Another parallel I think I see in your comments and between some people I hear complain in Single Adults, is that you and they don’t realize how much a turn-off a complaining attitude or depressed attitude is to people. It could be that you got rejected for lunch dates and leadership positions because of your attitude, not because you’re Hispanic.

Here in Indiana, some older rank-and-file members sometimes still talk about curse of Cain, or curse of Ham stuff. But I’ve never heard or seen racist attitudes towards any individuals. I never heard negative remarks about inter-racial dating or marriage among members towards those engaging in inter-racial dating or marriage.

I’ve _never_ heard talk about Lamanites or modern Native Americans being cursed. In the end of the Book of Mormon the Lamanites were the more righteous ones, and were allowed to live, while it was the wicked Nephites that were allowed to be wiped out by the Lamanites.

I still think you’d like it better in the Eastern half of the country, but you also need to forget the false-doctrine you learned in YM/YW, or heard gossiped about by members. Unless you can read it in post-correlation church-produced written material, or hear it preached by a current prophet/apostle at general conference, it ain’t necessarily true, even if someone says it over the pulpit.

Bookslinger, thanks for your comments.

Although I never claimed that my complaints reflected “official doctrine” of the Church, I think the idea of simply dismissing them as “false doctrines” when I can clearly see how they affect the way some of my leaders act is of no help. I can dismiss as false anything that I don’t like, but I still have to live with the attitudes against me.

“Another parallel I think I see in your comments and between some people I hear complain in Single Adults, is that you and they don’t realize how much a turn-off a complaining attitude or depressed attitude is to people. It could be that you got rejected for lunch dates and leadership positions because of your attitude, not because you’re Hispanic.”

Yeah, I am not that stupid. I don’t go asking women out by saying “Hi, I am a doomed loser, would you like to go out for lunch?” LOL. This is why I post these type of posts as “Elusive” (clearly not my actual name). In real life, I am the perfect Mormon poster boy. I am nice, smiley, clean shaven, well dressed, participative in church lessons, etc etc etc. You would NEVER know from the outside the feelings I often harbor due to Church doctrines (whether they are true or false can trigger endless debates called…. the bloggernacle).

as for your post:
“Descendents of Lehi are to inherit much greater blessings than the majority of LDS who are of _gentile_ bloodlines, who were adopted into the tribe of Ephraim.”

Late Bruce R McConkie (a general authority and an apostle) would strongly disagree with you, and he wrote quite authoritatively on the subject. In his usual tone “this is a fact because it is a fact.” And I am not sure if you have noticed, but, McConkie (unfortunately if you may) is the source for a tremendous influence on how members of the church interpret and practice doctrines.

Mr Boyd K. Packer did state that we should not marry outside of our race in a speech delivered at BYU (a long time ago in the 70′s), but he is by no means repentant of his statements and many people still harbor his apprehension.

I can come up with endless examples, but some here will simply shout “DAMU DAMU DAMU DAMU DAMU!!!!!” So, I will not enlarge this threadjack.

With my initial comments, I just wanted to share anecdotal data to explain why some, and I don’t know statistically how many, but some for sure feel sad about going to Church, and how it becomes a factor in their depression or damaged self-image. So that hopefully… some would listen to them and show a particle of empathy, instead of simply saying…”oh they are apostate” or “oh they got everything wrong, nothing in the Church is like that anyways.” This denial simply perpetuates the feeling of hopelessness, and IT IS REAL, believe me at least this much, it is real.

“I can dismiss as false anything that I don’t like, but I still have to live with the attitudes against me.”

Thanks for putting it that way. That goes a long way to helping me understand. Seriously, that sentence gave me a big “aha!” moment. You’re right. Perception is reality. If others in the church let false doctrines influence how they interract with you, those interactions are real, regardless of the validity of their beliefs.

“In real life, I am the perfect Mormon poster boy. I am nice, smiley, clean shaven, well dressed, participative in church lessons, etc etc etc.”

Okay. I’ll take your word for that, and give you the benefit of the doubt there.

“You would NEVER know from the outside the feelings I often harbor due to Church doctrines…”

Here’s where I might disagree. Maybe not in your particular situation, but for people I know who might be like you. The “feelings [you] harbor” get broadcast out as “vibes” very powerfully. It’s in a million little nuances, tone of voice, gestures, and spiritual feelings that are broadcast continuously. _Especially_ depression. Depression is extremely hard to cover over.

I’ll admit that I thought you might be from DAMU too. But I will say that even if we do take you at face value, please resolve your conflicts and issues, becaase if you don’t, you’re headed in that direction, and you’ll find yourself in the DAMU or ex-mo category before long. I think I have some standing to say that because I left the church (1987), requested name removal (1991), and have been on the road back for 5.5 years now (since mid 2002). The “congnitive dissonance” you are experiencing will either cause you to lose your testimony, or to leave the church, or both.

(Note, you don’t have to lose your testimony to leave the church. Plenty of people, me included, have left the church, knowing full well that the gospel is true, and that God’s authority resides in the church. It’s just all those “dang #@$% mormons” who can make it intolerable to stay in. But the Lord made me an offer I couldn’t refuse, and let me know I had to come back in spite of the ones who are #$%^ jerks. And then, after coming back, I realized the jerks are the minority, at least where I’m at, so now I can deal with it.)

I wasn’t aware of anything that McConkie said that was being used as a basis for discrimination against Hispanics or Native Americans, only those of African descent, which he later countered with his “forget all we said before on the matter” talk. (That wasn’t a full apology or full admission of error, but at least allowed people to go forward.)

Are you saying McConkie preached (something that can be used as) discrimination against Hispanic/Native-Americans, or are you saying that what he said about blacks was/is being used against Hispanics/Native-Americans?

Next topic: I would have to agree _somewhat_ with Packer, that one should at least _look_ first among one’s own ethnic group for dating and marriage, but also feel free to ignore skin color and ethnicity if they then choose. You also have to remember that such things about “dating/marrying in your own race” have not been spoken by GA’s since the early 80′s. I joined the church in 1982, and saw some inter-racial (black/caucasian) couples, and did NOT hear any negative talk behind their backs. And since I’ve been back, since 2002, I still haven’t heard talk about inter-racial couples in the church.

I’ve read the historical statements by past church leaders about cursed-race and cursed-skin talk in regards to those of African descent. But seriously, I have NOT ever read any talk about _present day_ (since 1830 at least) Native-Americans (or Hispanics) carrying any curses forward from Book of Mormon times. I’ve only read and heard about _promises of blessings_ made to today’s Native-Americans and Hispanics that have carried forward from Book of Mormon times. Maybe this is due to being east of the Mississippi, and I just haven’t heard what goes on out west. (Also note that I’m in favor of legal controlled immigration {my grandfather was from Poland}, and I am against illegal immigration, and I’m very much against _uncontrolled_ and _excessive_ illegal immigration.)

In other words, my impression has always been that us pastey-skinned Mormons of European origin are supposed to suck up to (ie, serve) the Native-Americans and Hispanics, both Mormons _and_ non-Mormons. That’s also the impression I get from 2nd Nephi about the descendents of Lehi tearing through the land like young lions with their prey and none can deliver. 2nd Nephi sure gives me the impression that the Lord is on the side of those young lions, ie, the latter-day descendents of Lehi (even if they are only partly descended, not 100% “full-blooded Lehites”).

What you’re feeling about discrimination for being Hispanic reminds me of the discrimination I felt for being single back in 1986/1987 after I got off my mission. You’re right, it stings and makes it hard to sit in church on Sunday, if you feel that people are merely “tolerating” your presence instead of welcoming you.

Well, screw ‘em. Enjoy the gospel. Enjoy church. Drink in what’s good, ignore the bad. Tell someone to their face if they offend you, as per Matthew 18:15-17, and DC 42:88-89. There’s always going to be a-holes in the church.

I’m just wondering if Elusive is going to go postal on his ward.

Annegb: I was visiting a ward in Illinois, on a fast-and-testimony sunday, and a 30-ish woman read her exit letter from the pulpit and then walked out. She didn’t say explicitly what the deal was, but accused people in the ward of harboring “hate and fear” and making it intolerable for her.

Thanks Michelle,

I do need to do some service, I usually volunteer to help junior high kids that struggle with math, but haven’t done that this year.

“Have you talked to your bishop? He could have helped you so you wouldn’t have had to live in your car or eat the 99 cent hamburgers.”

This was a long time ago. I did talk to my bishop before the situation got that bad, so as to seek help to prevent it from going that bad… he said there was nothing he could do for me. Once I was sunk in misery, I didn’t talk to him anymore. Yeah, I guess I could have begged him for food… but I didn’t. But that’s a thing of the past, and many bishops have come and gone since then.

Annegb,

I am not leaving the ward yet. I want to have a family really bad, and if being a member of the Church signifies giving up having a family, then I will leave the Church. I have met non-member women who are interested in me and would like to be with me, but I had the silly “temple marriage” dream too stuck in my head back in those days so I told them that I couldn’t have a relationship with non-mormons. They were not interested at all in learning about the church, so… But I want a family. Mormon women seem to run from me like if I was some sort of leprosy (not to mention their parents).

I don’t think I could be married to a non-member and continue to go to church, just to have to now carry the stigma that my marriage “is not eternal,” etc, etc, etc. Therefore I will most likely be gone from the Church, and will simply keep its memory as a growing stage in my life.

But otherwise, I don’t have any feelings of leaving the Church. It is just tough when you are not living the “ideal.” It is depressing, no matter how many people and how many arguments deny this truth: not being an ideal Mormon is depressing, that’s all there is to it.

I am not homicidal either, nor suicidal. I fear death and I also fear the suffering of others, so these are things that I avoid at all cost.

In 2001 and prior to Sep 11, I participated in a study at BYU about doctor’s assessments to prescribe antidepressants. I was given money to go to 3 doctors appointments, and I made one appointment at BYU.

Although I didn’t have any depression, I answered an average of 3 questions before I was prescribed an antidepressant. This happened for all appointments. The study concluded that the average assessment is 3-4 questions. And if answered correctly, 100% of the doctors prescribed anti-depressants. We were not allowed to publish our findings through BYU.

In fact, there are some studies that were used to support the conclusion that general practice docs should not be allowed to prescribe Prozac….

UT, 18.4.
KY, 17.3.
AR, 17.2.
ME, 17.2.
LA, 17.1.
IN, 16.8.
MO, 16.7.
NH, 16.7.
WV, 16.6.
OK, 16.5.
TN, 16.0.
AL, 16.4.

What is fun is to look at smaller locuses. There is a growing trend among some doctors to prescribe every woman over 40 with mood stabilizers and serotonin uptake inhibitors. The spread is somewhat viral.

Unfortunately what it goes to show is that people ought not to allow the free prescription of such drugs. Unless you believe that all women are mental as they grow older.

/sigh (still remembering an ethics conference with some doctors in Texas on the point, which came to the wrong consensus. Rather than generating support to stop the practice, the docs involved all decided it was a good idea).

To those who are aware that there is depression in UT, and that there are several factors in the Church, including discrimination and doctrines (not that they are false or misinterpreted, but simply the nature of those doctrines) that can cause some members to be sad… thank you. Thank you for your empathy and thank you for caring. I am sure there is at least one person in every ward who is struggling with feelings of sadness in the Church, and no, they are not apostates who will walk away any minute… for those we should pray and reach out to them.

Elusive, I for one believe the following things:

1. There is racism in the Church ranks.
2. There is depression among LDS members due to unrealistic social pressures and expectations.

It’s just that I don’t agree with the overwrought and hysterical way you are yelling about it here. It’s a complex subject.

Just for your own information, these subjects have been debated in the Mormon blogging community multiple times, from multiple angles, with multiple conclusions.

So don’t pretend that you have any sort of clear picture of what everyone here thinks about these issues. We are more diverse in our opinions than you think. We just don’t tend to respond well to one-sided emotional rants.

Elusive, your statement about Caucasions never seeing racism is one of absolute complete ignorance.

I’m starting to think you would only be happy if we all agreed to leave the church over the issue of depression.

My question for you now is, how can you be part of the solution?

Seth – nice answer that I agree with 100%

Elusive – many have addressed your questions in detail and tried to provide constructive ideas (thanks Bookslinger for all the patience and well thought out responses). I think your mischaracterization of the stream was unwarranted as others have pointed out. We are all trying to become better Saints and people.

MAC – I still think that the paper I pulled and put a link in combined with this expresscript data suggest that antidepressant usage in Utah (for whatever reasons) are higher. As some point out this is not necessarily a bad thing nor does it suggest depression rates are higher in Utah, but it certainly suggests something different occurs in Utah vs states like NY and NJ.

The question of how to interpret the higher anti-depressant use, and the attending confusion over the interpretation thereof, is similar to the “DNA proves the Book of Mormon wrong” hubbub from a couple of years ago. The science/measurement is one thing, but the interpretation is another thing entirely (and much trickier).

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