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I might add that there is not an incredible amount of NEW stuff in the Book of Mormon. It no doubt expounds many prior-known doctrines. I knew a guy in Russia named George. He was an IT guy, as well as a self-proclaimed academic. We taught many discussions and he liked all of the doctrines, but would not join the church. I left that area, only to return a few months later. I met up with George again. He had found a man who professed to have deciphered the Nephite record just as Joseph Smith had. George studied this man’s work and was interested in starting a new religion based on his own interpretation of the Nephite record. It was fascinating to me that it the Book of Mormon was not enough for George- far to simple. He needed to re-write it. |
Just an odd thing - when I started posting (on my own blog) alphabetized lists of words that appeared in the Book of Mormon texts, my Google Ad-Sense started bring up ads for apocalyptic literature. It made me wonder if I should be looking at the book in a different way. |
The Book of Mormon is not primarily about restoring lost doctrine or about philosophy. It is about redefining the reader’s world view. It’s about rewriting world history with God at the center. The Bible attempts the same thing. But the fact that it is so geographically limited to Palestine weakens its argument that it is a book describing the heart of world history. The existence of the Book of Mormon strengthens the Bible’s claim immensely. Traditional Christians ought to be grateful for the Book of Mormon. In the end, that book will be what rehabilitates the Bible. |
Jeff, how do you include the books of Moses and Abraham in your analysis of Joseph? Certainly they have a higher concentration of mystic content. Kolob? The war in heaven? Moses being harassed by Satan? I’d also say that Nephi has his share of visions and somewhat mystic content. |
Actually, things such as the liahona and gazelem; events like the vision/conversion of Alma the Younger, the histronics of the Ammon conversions, the manifestations in Helaman 5; and the visiting angels, visions, and dreams all have a mystical edge to them. |
Oh, there definitely is mystic content in the Book of Mormon, and even more mystical content in later revelations like Moses and Abraham. But another unique aspect of Joseph’s thought (if we think it’s his, if not, then we can say True Religion) is his placing of equal importance on the temporal. For instance, the Book of Mormon says God operates both spiritually and temporally. D&C teaches that the spirit and the body must be reunited and if separated, “cannot receive a fullness of joy”. This is not typical mysticism. Most mystics yearned to leave their bodies and material attachments. Certainly there are what we could call mystical elements (though I would probably just call them “spiritual” and leave it at that) in much of what Joseph promulgated, but the overall impression you get if you compare his output to Swedenborg, or even Catholic Saints like St. John of the Cross or Therese of Avalon, is how earthy and concrete it is overall. |
Great post — a lot to think about in this one. |
Another difference between Joseph and the mystics is how he pined for revelation to be more distributed among the membership. Joseph wanted those around him to be experiencing the same things he was, and it seemed like he was frequently frustrated when they couldn’t, for one reason or another. I don’t know of any mystic trying so hard to cultivate his or her own gifts among their followers, and I think Joseph might have seen that goal as a key to helping ease the burden of loneliness he felt in his calling. |
There are mystic readings of the Book of Mormon (or any other text for that matter) but I don’t see anything in the Book of Mormon that clearly is mystical. |
I’m inclined to agree that the Book of Mormon isn’t usefully described as mysticism. Of course, all this doesn’t prove Smith wasn’t a fraud. It only proves he wasn’t a mystic. No, it doesn’t prove that. It proves only that with respect to the Book of Mormon, he wasn’t a mystic. One cannot read D&C 76, D&C 88, D&C 93, or the Book of Moses without encountering mysticism in abundance. (I like, especially, the trees’ souls referred to in Moses 3:9.) His failure to adopt the mystic role limits much of his appeal, because, as Bushman writes, Joseph Smith insisted on anchoring his prophetic output in the real world. This is true with respect to the Book of Mormon. It seems wildly inconsistent with the more mystical aspects of other scripture he produced. |
D&C 76 isn’t terribly mystic unless one expands the meaning of mystic all out of proportion. D&C 88 and 93 certainly are much more open to be mystic or at least neoPlatonic readings. (Note that of course one can be a Platonist without being a mystic - something I think far too many mystics forget) However D&C 88 & 93 alone aren’t enough to portray Joseph as a mystic. You need some clarity in how he read them. |
“D&C 88 and 93…you need some clarity in how to read them” And Joseph himself did not provide that clarity in any of the writings that I’ve seen, nor has any other prophet. Just as you move into the mystical realm with the interconnectedness of spirit, light, intelligence and truth, Joseph pulls us back with the materialism of D&C 131:7. You realize there is much in 88 & 93 to learn but it is hard to get a handle on it. |
“…in how he read them”. Sorry |
The bigger problem, Larry, is that interconnectiveness is not sufficient to designate something as mystic. Rather there is a certain experience in experiencing everything as One that is a key part. While Joseph was all about experiencing the divine he emphasized not the numinous experience but intelligence conveyed in the experience. To such a degree that he discounted ‘contentless’ experiences. As you note you just don’t find in Joseph’s writings the same focus that one finds in say Emerson. That’s not to say there aren’t elements in common. There of course are. But are they sufficient to label someone mystic? |
If hidden mystery accessible only through divine mind-opening influence isn’t the realm of the mystic, perhaps we should define “mystic.” |
greenfrog, I think you are forgetting something about Joseph Smith and Mormonism when you read that passage. Unlike the mystics, Joseph Smith didn’t think they were unknowable or undefined spiritual illuminations. Once you start paying attention to what Joseph Smith revealed about the mysteries, you suddenly find he considered them concrete truths. For an obvious example you have the Temple where it might be symbolic, but it isn’t beyond our own Earthly experiences. That is what sets him apart from typical mystics. If you must insist, he turned mysticism on its head. Once you understand a mystery, then it will no longer be a mystery. He said it best, I believe, in his KFD when he stated the best way to know ourselves is to know God. Yet, in mysticism the ideal is to forget yourself to better understand God. As for the Book of Moses, Abraham, and some places in D&C, I am not impressed with those readings as pure mysticism. In fact, a lot of it can be read in light of theoretical physics and even sometimes science. |
danithew (2), one of my mission presidents thought that the books of Alma through 3 Nephi 11 were a prophecy about the last days, and that if you read the chapters in reverse, chiastically, if you will, that you got how the second coming would come about. The way I think of Kabbalah (though I doubt Madonna does much of this) is using the Hebrew text to count the Hebrew letters out to find additional revelations buried in the texts (called “gematria”). Just as it is possible (though I don’t think easily) to read the Book of Mormon mystically, it’s possible to read it Kabbalistically. nasamomdele (1) and Seth (3) I think that is the main purpose of the Book of Mormon. At least, if you believe what the text itself claims is its mission, namely to to convince everyone that Jesus is Lord of the whole earth. I think it’s why there isn’t much new there. In fact, the less new the better, if it’s supposed to affirm the Bible. It’s my own private theory to explain why there’s so much King James language in there, ripped out of the Bible in many cases word for word. The translator (God? A Celestial committee of linguists? Joseph?) deliberately wanted it to resemble the Bible as much as possible, in order for it to be a most effective and more easily received witness to the Bible. greenfrog (15) we do need to define mystic. But I think whatever aspects of Joseph Smith’s revelations we might dig up that have mystical content, overall, I think his thinking is not. It’s always grounded. I mean, he has a revelation about the heavenly city, but then before you know it, he locates it in Jackson County. Swedenborg would have stopped with the architectural plans. Joseph wanted to build it. |
Since you mention Ezekiel in your post, I think it might be fair to also talk about the book of Revelation as an example of mystical literature. I only say that because I want to make a couple of jumps here. There is definitely supposed to be a connection between Lehi’s/Nephi’s vision and the book of Revelation. One gets the impression, from the text, that the book of Revelation picks up in a place where Lehi’s/Nephi’s vision leaves off. It could be interesting to discuss whether apocalyptic literature = mysticism literature or not and if so, whether apocalyptic/mystical literature is supposed to be so ethereal in the first place. Nephi’s vision (1 Nephi 14:23-25) points to the idea that John’s book of Revelation was supposed to be plain to understanding (like the Book of Mormon):
Based on what these verses are saying, Nephi’s/Lehi’s vision, as it is recorded in the Book of Mormon, may better represent what apocalyptic/mystical literature is supposed to be or what they would preferably be - something that is profound, prophetic (in the sense of actually prophesying the future) but still plain and understandable to the reader. In addition to those characteristics, it’s almost hard to imagine something a scripture student could want more. |
I riffed on this a little a year or two ago. |
Greenfrog (#15), the difference is that Joseph Smith emphasized linguistic communication - that is communication expressible in terms of propositions. The mystic typically doesn’t with the key being ineffable experience. Mormons might talk about ineffable experiences but it’s generally cast as simply a linguistic limitation. That is they don’t have the vocabulary to talk about it. Sort of like a 15th century monk coming away from a nuclear engineer showing what he does. So there is a huge difference between the mystic and their limitations and the more pragmatic limitations I think one finds in Mormonism. I do think part of the problem is in defining mysticism. It’s such a vague and nebulous term that means different things to different people. My point is that Joseph Smith and even D&C 88 & 93 can easily be understood in much more traditional materialistic and propositional senses. Even if one adopts an Idealism (in the metaphysical sense) one need not be a mystic. Jeff, gematria is part of Kabbalism but gematria only works for them in association with mystic experiences. This is one element of mysticism in which an endless interrogation of texts rupture them and allow the mystic new knowledge. Now some might argue that this is how to deal with Joseph’s comment about information flow. However I think the way this is understood by the mystic and by Joseph is quite different. For the mystic it’s ultimately knowledge that unfolds because of the unity in all things and a kind of ascent (or for the Kabbalist descent) to higher levels or reality that are more unified. For Joseph it is much more communication between two beings. Ontologically for Joseph it’s all about communication the way you and I are communicating even if the information and methods are slightly different. But one has to acknowledge that the Kabbalist allows for mystic knowledge of practical matters. One should also note that while gematria is important in Kabbalism it’s hardly the be all and end of all Kabbalistic methods. Danithew, I’m a big proponent of comparing Nephi’s vision with ancient Jewish apocalypses and pseudopigrapha. Certainly the merkabah texts were taken mystically in light of neoPlatonism. One argument for a Mormon is that this was due to apostasy as neoPlatonism and the move from God as person to God as absolute took hold in Judaism. I personally think the reality is a little more complex. The problem is that even John’s and Nephi’s visions are very symbolic. So we have images with multiple meanings and an interrogation being given. There might be propositional knowledge communicated but it is done in a secondary form. The question for whether this is mystical is in terms of how the vision is taken. For Nephi and John the emphasis appears to be in interpreting the images. For the mystic the emphasis is a kind of descent within consciousness to higher levels of consciousness. Nothing is to be interpreted either literally or even allegorically but ultimately as higher levels of ideas. (Thus the warning about when one sees water about not exclaiming one sees water) I’d simply note that Joseph never interprets things mystically. The ascent is taken quite literally and the move to God’s throne isn’t a move to some more abstract abstraction. Certainly nothing akin to Keter in Kabbalism let alone the En-Sof. Rather we have allegories often presented by beings Joseph takes quite literally. Once again the question becomes how to interpret the meaning of mystic. I’ll fully concede that a lot of texts the Mormon apologist turns to are best interpreted mystically. (Say 2 Enoch, The Gospel of Philip, or others) However note how Mormons tend to read these. Then ask why they read them this way. One simply doesn’t see an emphasis on higher levels of reality or consciousness within Mormonism. There is a stubborn literalness to it with a constant emphasis on the material. Now of course mysticism isn’t properly opposed to materialsm. After all Plotinus was talking about nature. As was Emerson. But how they do this is just quite opposed to Mormon thought. Mormons used allegory but always to move towards literal anthropology or history and never as a move towards more general statements of consciousness or reality. If one definis mysticism one must do it in such a way that it doesn’t encompass all religion and one must make clear what it’s opposition is. That is what it is to be a non-mystic. |
On the subject of Ezekiel, at least in the first chapter, he was simply using common symbols of the time to communicate that God is not bound to a tract of land. I wouldn’t call that mystical. But I agree, a definition of how you are using the term “mystic” would help clarify your position. |
Interesting discussion. And yes, definitions are all important. FWIW, I started with Nibley’s discussion of Prophet and Mystics in the World and the Prophets, and changed when I read Mark Kolko’s Sunstone Essay “Mormonism and Mysticism.” He looks at eight characteristics of mystic experience that he finds developed in LDS scripture or Joseph’s experiences. Not that I think Joseph Smith was a just another mystic. Back at San Jose State, I wrote a long comparison and contrast of Smith and his mystic contemporary, Emerson. I think that Joseph’s experiences bridge the poles of numinous and mystic experience, which makes him something else. He makes at-one-ment between the divergence poles of experience. Ninian’s Smart’s description of what happens when such bridging happens seems to me to describe the essential distinctiveness of the LDS view of God. Where the mystics find a oneness with an impersonal God, those who report numinous experience report a sense of vast distance separating them from a personal God. With Joseph Smith, the distance from the Numinous closes, and the impersonal of the mystic’s “Oneless” resolves into a Personal diety, and it all demonstrates in a distinctive kind of experience that Ninian Smart describes as “a close embrace with the other.” I put a three part essay on this topic on the Meridian Magazine online, which can be found under articles. Kevin Christensen |
Nibley’s use is problematic and polemical. It’s been a long time since I read Kolko’s essay. I seem to recall disagreeing with him. The problem with the approach you outline is that all interpersonal relations become this if one takes Levinas and others seriously. That is our encounter with The Other qua other has these characteristics. But in that case what is mysticism? |
Hm, thanks for material to think about further. I readily agree that Joseph sketches in different colors and contours than Meister Ekhart and Theresa de Avila and St John of the Cross, but I wonder whether that’s because his perception was truly, fundamentally different, or whether it’s because of the glosses we impose on his words and the cultural context of which he was a part. D&C 88’s articulation of the light of Christ being in and through and manifested in all things is hard for me to comprehend in any way that is not mystic: a perception of an underlying and unifying reality that is more than inert matter organized into utility by an order-preferring deity. The orbits of the planets are, themselves, a manifestation of God? That kind of statement seems consistent with everything I’ve experienced in meditation and moments of grace. But I don’t see that kind of mysticism as necessarily “other worldly,” though some of it certainly drifts in that direction. Perhaps it’s my own LDS training, but I’ve always found such rejection of the dual world to be a kind of self-induced blindness. I find more value in the Zen practice that is intensely *right here, right now* oriented, even though Zen practice leads to satori — “mystical” perception of the unity of all in form and emptiness. (I’m reminded of the Zen story of a monk asking the master to describe enlightenment. The two of them were carrying bundles of sticks up a hill to the monastery. The master said, “this,” and he put down his bundle of sticks. The monk, suddenly, understood and attained enlightenment. Then he asked the Master, what do I do now that I understand?” And the Master said, “this,” and picked up his bundle of sticks and resumed walking up the hill.) Joseph, to my view, was an eminently this-world kind of person who discovered the way to see into the world of mysticism — the world of the mind and consciousness. That activity enables vision states. Most of Joseph’s revelations seem, to me, to seldom go beyond the normal consciousness of wisdom. Some go further into vision states, and he tends to characterize those states with language such as that I highlighted from D&C 76, about the eyes of understanding opening. He used similar language to describe the First Vision. But there are states that are deeper than visions, which I think are, functionally, a level of lucid dreaming. Those deeper states seem like the sort of thing that is described in the Book of Moses (leaving Moses with one of the best lines in all scripture: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.), and are very accurately captured by the descriptions of underlying nonduality articulated in D&C 88, and in 93 to a lesser extent. Anyway, thanks for a thought-provoking discussion. |
[...] from what was originally intended to be a comment in response to Clark’s interesting thoughts here where he wrote among other things:“I’d simply note that Joseph never interprets things [...] |
Much of this conversation is above my head; however, I believe that Joseph Smith was given the gift of being able to sense the spirit world. I, too, have that gift and never realized that everybody didn’t have it till this year. My sister says she has never had that experience. To me, it’s natural, a given. There’s nothing mystical about it to me. I know there’s more than this finite world. I believe this is apparent in his writings. The Book of Mormon is scripture and different. My sister, for example, has an unwavering faith in scripture. I have faith, but I realize that you have to take into account the fallibility of the translator. |
Fer cryin’ out loud. MM has turned into another navel-gazing blog. |
How does Joseph’s flagship religious tract, Book of Mormon, compare to the works of famous mystics like William Blake, Swedenborg, the Bagavad Gita, the Kaballah, or even Nostradamus? As mystical literature, “…the Book of Mormon is very disappointing…” I am not sure that you have read the Book of Mormon, or Blake, Swedenborg, the Bagavad Gita, the Kaballah, or Nostradamus or you would not be making such foolish statements. Harold Bloom in his The American Religion states that the genius of Joseph Smith’s religion making was a return to Abrahamic Judaism. I am no expert on Blake, Swedenborg, or the Bagavad Gita, but I can talk with some knowledge of Kaballah and the Book of Mormon. The book of Mormon os a very Kaballistic document, using many of the same literary styles and metaphors that can be found of the Sephir Yetzirah, The Book Bahir and The Thirteen Petalled Rose. As for fantasy, when you can read the Book of Mormon like a Jew (Nephi’s admonition) you will see fantasy throughout the Book of Mormon, but I would rather more accurately characterize them as spiritual experiences, in and out of the body, from start to finish. And, I guess I will have to shread my Old Testament because it is full of stories that on the surface do not make the casual reader feel good. But then wait I better keep it for the “ethereal” stories in Isaiah and Ezekiel. (I guess the Pearl of Great Price may fall into the mystical text category to if Isaiah and Ezekiel do.) The only thing foolish and scandalous, are the lack of scholarship and understanding of mysticism I have read in below. Oh and for future reference there is no such thing as “the Kaballah, it is Kaballah, and translated simplistically means revelation for G_d’s lips to the hearers ears. And I would recommend that you read section 76 of Doctrines and Covenants and compare it with the The Thirteen Petaled Rose. Cultural Mormons (some like Bushman and Elswoth) will find that limiting Joseph to the physical, naturalistic world leads to a secular path that removes the very special nature of Joseph Smith’s religion making that Harold Bloom so respectively recognized as Prophetic. |
Umm. I’ve read all those and I don’t see the similar rhetorical styles. Could you give explicit examples? |
It also shows the remarkable chutzpah of Joseph Smith. If he didn’t produce the Book of Mormon the way he claimed he did, then he was either very stupid, or incredibly bold. As Ellsworth writes in another context, Joseph was always swinging for the fences. Interesting in that we tend to dismiss leaders like this today (like bishops and stake presidents). We love the bishops who will maintain our ward status quo and introduce some incremental, obvious changes or themes, but we become uncomfortable with leaders who shake things up, call non-obvious people to important positions, challenge our comfortable lifestyles. |
“turned into another navel-gazing blog”? Naval gazing is part of the job description of being a blogger. No offense, you guys, but I’m kind of sick of Rough Stone Rolling LOL. Just chalk it up to my lack of intellect. |
I have no problem with Rough Stone Rolling. I’ve skimmed it, but haven’t read it cover-to-cover yet. That book is shaking some people up. After I referred to RSR, one straight-arrow type guy told me Bushman was an apostate, and then he threatened to tell the stake president that I was apostate for giving any credence to Bushman or RSR. But yeah, when you see the words “hemeneutics,” “exegis” or “soteriology” you’ve stumbled upon navel-gazers. I’ve now added “numinous” to the list. |
You know what? Crap like that makes my blood boil. Somebody talks to me like that, I’m going to take their arm and say, “Let’s go together, Moron. I’ll be happy for you to rat me out.” |
[...] Mentality: “Joseph Smith as the anti-Mystic“: If you’re going to invent a new scripture, the Book of Mormon is exactly the opposite [...] |
While I agree that Joseph is the penultimate mystical non-mystic; what would we say of some of the authors within Joseph’s writings? Were Lehi and Nephi mystics? Lehi had a vision akin to the Ascension of Isaiah text, where he sees the Messiah descend with the 12 and receives a book to read. Both Lehi and Nephi have a vision of the Tree of Life - a form of ascension rite IMO. Would Abraham’s vision in the BoA, or Moses’ vision be mystical? I would suggest that Joseph, the pragmatic applied scientist, took the mystical experiences of the past, and brought them down to earth for us to practically understand and use. |
The question once again Gerald is what constitutes mysticism. Typically one distinguishes visions and prophecy from mysticism. If we conflate them as essentially the same then that seems to water down the meaning and utility of mysticism as a term. |
[...] talk on personal revelation, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Dan Ellsworth wrote something on this thread I really liked that was related to this issue, so I decided to quote him. And I openly cited the [...] |
[...] Mormon Mentality - Thoughts and Asides by Peculiar People » A Shameless Publicity Stunt and Qu… [...] |
[...] Joseph by this point had already received quite a bit of polishing — he had dictated the entire Book of Mormon, plus close to half of the revelations that would eventually end up in the Doctrine and Covenants. Yet even so, I see a difference between Joseph’s style here and that found in D&C 128 some 10 years later. Joseph’s writing in his 1832 ‘History’ tends to plod along, winding through long, long sentences. D&C 128 has a lighter, clearer style, and there is a sense of structure and purpose, and even of joy — that Joseph knows where he’s going with all this, that he’s excited about it, and that each new strand he brings up gets woven into the overall tapestry. Even when he goes off on that ecstatic flight at the end, he does so for a purpose and — as noted above — he brings it back to his original topic and weaves it into the tapestry as well (cf. Jeff Bennion’s excellent post over at Mormon Mentality on Joseph Smith not being a “mystic”). [...] |
[...] statistics, when I last consulted them, don’t seem to have jumped appreciably. As I argued here, if he had confined the subject of his revelations to the immaterial realms, it would be easier to [...] |