26 Comments | leave a comment | RSS 2.0 for this post | trackback |
One of the points I didn’t make when Matt B posted his Pew report is that it probably masks considerable differences between the religious experiences and practices of LDS people in places where they are in the majority compared to places where they are not. There are also regional cultural differences that members will absorb, so these will interact in interesting ways. I really thought the effect of being such a minority when I lived in the East would make it a good place to raise kids. The ones I saw seemed remarkably well-adjusted and also effective missionaries, both during their full-time service as well as before and after. But most of the objective research says rates of inactivity are considerably higher the smaller proportion of the population your faith is. |
Having spent 18 years in Utah, and now 14 years in the Southeast, give me the East Coast any day. Not. Even. Close. By the way, how close is Washington (Seattle specifically) to your West Coast model? |
life among the Mormons… was not for me and [I] hope not to go back So much for the celestial kingdom, eh? |
Fortunately, the Celestial Kingdom will be filled with non-Mormons. |
Patrick, Sometimes I have to throw my hands up and say that very phrase. esodhiambo, I think your model is pretty accurate. I think it also reflects some level of political/establishment characteristics. |
Jeff–re: inactivity: I think when you have a small percentage of members in an area, it is kind of like a crucible–the ones who survive it come out strong, but many many “are burned” or become inactive. This is just my gut/anecdotal experience, not statistics. Randy–I have no direct experience with Washington or Oregon, but I would readily admit to an imperfect model! I would guess there are pockets of East Coast-like experiences on the West Coast and vice versa. Patrick–yup nasamomdele–how so? Tell me more… |
ESO, I think you’re exactly right. The models, at least in my limited experience, have some general accuracy (there are always exceptions to the rule, of course), though they do not literally map on to the geography described. |
I grew up in N. California. My experience was far closer to the “East Coast” experience than the “West Coast” one. I was the only Mormon in my grade through Junior High. I think there were 5 boys in my grade in high school (out of a class of 900) that were LDS. I think the better grouping would be to distinguish between high-concentration LDS community and low-concentration. While you are more likely to find high-concentration communities in the west, it is the exception not the norm. Utah, and parts of Idaho, Wyoming, Arizona, and Nevada would probably be the states were there are large numbers of high-concentration communities. While there are a lot of Mormons in California, there are so many people that the concentration is usually diluted to have what you call the “west coast” church experience. |
Actually, I joined the Church in 1967 in San Diego, California, just before starting high school, and I would say that the majority of your ‘East Coast’ points applied to me: o We had maybe a dozen or so Mormons (if that many) in a high school of 2600 students. This was all true in spite of the fact that there were about 50,000 Mormons in San Diego County at the time. ..bruce.. |
You’ve got that right. I once ran the numbers and estimated that the ratio of non-Mormons to Mormons in the Celestial Kingdom will be on the order of 10,000:1 (“Mormons” being defined as people who were actually baptized into the LDS Church in their mortal state since 1830). Here’s my analysis. ..bruce.. |
As a young woman, I swore I would not raise my family in Utah. I ended up marrying a BYU professor. Within the past two weeks, my youngest son has said he will never live in Utah because there are too many Mormons here. My oldest daughter (already married) has decided she does not want to raise her family here. Guess what–I understand where they’re coming from. If I had it to do over again, Bruce Young would have been a professor in Boston or Beijing, and that’s where we would’ve raised our family. I honestly do not think Utah has been good for my children. This is not to say it’s bad for everyone, but for my particular children with their particular challenges, I wish I had raised them someplace else. But maybe that’s just because we’re in hell week right now trying to get learning disabled child #4 through term #3, and it’s all happening in Utah. And Daylight Savings Time starts Sunday. I wish I lived in Arizona or Hawaii. |
I am of the view that the individual child, parents, ward etc play more a role in retaining youth then what region of the country they grow up in. |
My experience of growing up in small town Utah mimics what you wrote ESO – except I did not have to worry about a prom dress, although my friends and I did a few transvestite dates where we wore dresses and the girls were the “boys”. We certainly got some weird looks in Provo. Nonetheless, while I enjoyed growing up there, I shall not live there again (unless hell freezes over, which is possible). I enjoy living in a more diverse environment – not only religiously, but politically and ethnically. |
Growing up in Southern California, it’s easier for youth to direct their teen angst away from the Church, because there are so many other strong voices and influences. There, a teen’s angst and/or rebellion can easily be directed at society in general, whereas in Utah, it feels like there is only one influence (and institution) to rebel against. That strikes me as a bad situation to be in. |
We raised our children in Washington State, about 60 miles north of Seattle, during the 80s and 90s. It definitely fit your east coast model, though there are more church members there now. It took 45 minutes to drive from one side of the ward bounderies to the other. I, myself, grew up in Utah (50s & 60s), but my husband grew up in Chicago. If we had the choice to make all over again (as to where we would live), I wouldn’t change a thing. |
My teen years were spent alternately west, east, west, and you’ve pretty well captured my experience. Even in small town Northern California where there wasn’t an overabundance of Mormons, at least people knew what Mormonism was, and we weren’t the freaks we were in the east. There’s no question I will choose to remain in the west unless I’m dragged away against my will — but I think that has more to do with a strong personal craving for roots (mine happen to be in the west) and very little to do with choosing Mormon Majority over mormon minority. |
Dan Ellsworth–that is a great point–if kids must rebel (and most must, at least a little), better to do it against organized sports or Republicans, rather than their Mia Maid advisor. |
Dan, those were almost exactly the words out of my wife’s mouth when we made the decision in the fall of 1987 to move from Utah to California. We had been married a little over a year — 2nd marriage for both of us, with (9!) nine (9!) kids between the two of us — My own impetus was much less profound. We were attending a football game at Timpview High, where Sandra’s oldest daughter went to school. While we were sitting in the stands before the game, with people still coming in, four young teenage girls filed past, all looking like young Farrah Fawcett clones (i.e., with the classic FF hairdo and wearing near-similar outfits). I turned to Sandra and said, “We need to move away from here.” We’ve never regretted it. The problem with Utah (IMHO) is not that “Utah Mormons” are somehow different; some of the finest, best members of this Church that I know live in Utah. It’s that the culture gets mixed up with the Church and the Gospel, and some folks get a bit wacko. My good friend Bob Trammel — a former bishop who lives in El Paso — cribbed a line from “Hello, Dolly” to describe it: “Mormons are like horse manure. Spread them around, and things flourish and grow. Heap them up in one spot, and they stink.” ..bruce.. |
Oops — I somehow forget to finish that first paragraph. Here it is again: Dan, those were almost exactly the words out of my wife’s mouth when we made the decision in the fall of 1987 to move from Utah to California. We had been married a little over a year — 2nd marriage for both of us, with (9!) nine (9!) kids between the two of us — when we made the decision to leave Utah (where I had lived for about 2 years while teaching at BYU, and where Sandra had been for about 14 years). I was able to line up work in Santa Cruz, California, and we moved to Soquel — or, more accurately, to the foothills of the Santa Cruz Mountains, just east of Soquel. The kids absolutely loved the move. |
bfwebster, I love the Soquel/Capitola area. I had a good friend living in Soquel for a while, and it was my favorite place to visit. |
Seattle proper is more like the east coast model. The suburbs range from east coast model to west coast model and in between. I grew up on an island near Seattle and found it a perfect mix of the good parts of each model. I now live in one of the suburbs. The experience for the youth in our stake, covering two suburban cities, is closer to eastcoast in my city and closer to west coast in the other. |
I grew up in the Northwest but my experience actually follows your East Coast model to the T, so I beg to differ. While I agree that it’s easy to confuse the culture with the church in areas with a higher concentration of members I don’t think that’s at all unique to Mormons. I believe that occurs with any religious group. And I have to admit that even though the experience my kids are having growing up in Provo is completely different from that I had growing up in Western Oregon, living here has been good for my kids so far. Their experience has also been much more diverse than mine was. Go figure. |
I have lived in the East all of my life and have no family ties to the west. In the small ward where I grew up it seemed there was a big time prejudice toward “Utah Mormons”. As a youth I over heard several conversations from different adults about those ignorant, judgmental, self-righteous, holier-than-thou people from Utah. So it is no surprise that I took these same views (never mind the fact that I didn’t even KNOW anyone from Utah). When I finished hs and went onto college (still in the east) I began to cross paths with those “terrible” Utah Mormons, those people who had lived in Utah all of their lives. I was amazed, the more I met and the more I worked with various individuals from different parts of Utah I found them to be some of the nicest, articulate, smart, talented (i swear almost everyone I came in contact with could play some sort of instrument or sing) and TOLERANT (yes, tolerant!) people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. Now I live in a branch where there are several homegrown Utahans and I must say the branch would be nothing without their willingness to sacrifice and support. Plus they seem to have a better grasp on exactly how the church (the organizational part) works. I feel like lots of adults have issues and all kinds of philosophical reasons why they chose not to live in Utah. But for whatever reason, Utah produces some top notch kids. Maybe my experience is just an anomaly? It is something that has puzzled me over the years. |
And then you have that third world country better known as southern Utah. |
I’m definitely an east coast person … but having lived in Utah for a period of years (though not living there currently), I see upsides/downsides to both east coast and west coast experiences. The one thing I am not qualified to talk about (yet) is the experience of raising a child in either part of the country. I’ve become more appreciative of pioneer heritage – realizing that many of my ancestors were among those first settling Utah. So I don’t think it’s right for me to be entirely critical of Utah culture. Also, some of the things I would have criticized about Utah twenty years ago just aren’t the same anymore. One of the blessings about United States is it’s geographic sprawl – that we can have such diverse regional cultures encompassed by one country. Having had the experience of living in a very small country (Israel) I think I appreciate that more than I would have otherwise. |
I was raised “East Coast” by parents who strove to retain their “Utah” roots at every turn. My wife was raised “Utah” by parents of “East Coast” mentality. I chose to flee both and live in North Texas. I think my children are better off for it. I know I am. |