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Oh I don’t know … after using the KJV for this long in life, I’m kind of sentimental about it. |
agreed, change it |
Ummmm I am having a tough time reading and understanding this long blog…. Could you put this in KJV format so I could understand it better…:) |
The NRSV is my preferred Bible. The NIV is that preferred by most conservative evangelical groups; its translation was prompted by theological dissatisfaction with the RSV’s version of such prooftexts as Isaiah 7:14, and it has actually faced criticism over passages like that, or its reconcilation of the contradictory visions of Paul in Acts 9 and 22. |
You have my bow. |
My only concern is would the poetic witing style be completetly gone? Otherwise, amen! |
I say we all just learn Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. However, I realize not everyone thinks that is a realistic endeavor. I use the NRSV (Oxford Annotated Ed.) for personal reading (I really detest the NIV). I think it is useful and worthwhile to be more than just a little familiar with the KJV translation, its manner of expression, and its idioms, however, since it is the style of language used and quoted in the BofM (another reason I think the Church might prefer the KJV, though that’s just my own speculation) and in the personal writings of some important past historical figures. |
OK I have my boss reading here now and he has a question on the RSV Bible, he would like to know “What is the source of the text used in the new versions? Are they revisions of the KJV or did they go back to older texts in Hebrew and/or Greek.” |
Suggestion: If anyone wants to get inexpensive paper-back copies of these, go to American Bible Society, http://www.Bibles.com and There are several “parallel Bibles” published, with 2 or 4 translations side by side. You can get them at http://www.amazon.com for a significant savings than if you buy them from the publisher, usually Zondervan or IBS or Thomas. DKL: I forget why, but I checked out the ESV and didn’t like it for some reason. The KJV NT isn’t that bad, but I had to use a parallel Bible (KJV, NIV, NLT, NASB) to get through the OT. The KJV translators just weren’t as good with Hebrew as they were with Greek. One translation that does keep a nice poetic and elegent “read” to it is the Jerusalem Bible. That was my first Bible back in the 70’s. Having a working knowledge of some of these is a good counter to those who accuse the church of changing the Book of Mormon. Look at what Christian scholars have done with the Bible! They’ve changed it, or at least changed what it means. \And they still can’t agree on the correct/best English translation. Gar: Look at the introductions. They usually say what source texts they used. All the major ones use the Hebrew/Greek as sources. |
Can DKL get an amen? AMEN! |
I really like reading the original edition of the Book of Mormon. I prefer that kind of formatting for my scripture. I find that we focus too much on one particular verse or another in the current format instead of the larger text or context. I’ll have to consider reading some of these other versions of the Bible. |
Thou wretch! The Bloggernacle revileth thee! |
Well Bookslinger… I was kind of hoping I would not have to go purchase one, on the off chance we would never accept it as “correct”, and that it would just be made known unto me here… |
Gar, |
Personally, I would like a red-word Bible…. |
and then maybe we could redo the manuals too! amen to this idea–who has the ear of the GAs to pass this along? if members around the world can read their bibles in modern japanese etc, why should we be stuck with shakespearean english? |
The KJV is in the same language as the BoM. It’s the Bible Joseph Smith used. It’s not always the easiest to read, but it makes readers think a bit more, and isn’t that the point? To actually think and study the Bible? Plus, it’s beautiful language. |
My favorite is the Jerusalem Bible although I can’t get straight it’s relation to the French Jerusalem Bible which came first. It’s a Catholic translation but captures poetry very well. My next favorite is the NASB although it’s a bit too beholden to higher criticism and does some weird verse renumbering in places. It’s also Catholic and it’s a bit more apparent in some places. I always check against a KJV just because so much jargon in our other standard works comes from it. |
I worked in a small independent bookstore for ten years, and I would often pull a different version of the Bible off the shelf to read on a break. I particularly liked the NIV, but all of them were enlightening, in one way or another. Certainly, there is nothing to prevent Church members from using these other Bibles as references in their scripture study. Which version or edition is the “official” LDS tome doesn’t really make much difference to me personally. However, for sheer poetry, the KJV is unsurpassed. It was in my reading of (and listening to my mother read) I Corinthians that I fell in love with words and language. Nothing describes life more accuarately than “..now we see through a glass, darkly…”, nor the hope of Eternity better than “…then shall I know even as also I am known.” (see I Corinthians 13:12 KJV) |
English,in ancient times, was considered a common lnaguage compared to Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. Nevertheless, the attempt and, finally, the success of translating it made it possible for even a plowboy to read it. I find that I pay more attention to the text because it is written in a style I am not used to, yet read often enough becomes easier in the long run. I like the KJV mostly because its old language gives it a unique and sacred feel. Modern day English tends to take away from that.Joseph Smith’s translations use the same style as the KJV. Perhaps God prefers that style, too. |
You’ve read all of these versions of the Bible cover to cover? Hats off to you, sir; I find it hard to read the prophets at all. I thoroughly agree with your point — the KJV is completely out of date. If we believe, like Mitt Romney, that the Bible is the word of God, holding onto a poor translation separates us from hearing God’s actual words. |
I think the church should just get out of the Bible production business completely. For every language except English they have not yet entered into the business. I hope all of the rumors that they are producing a LDS Spanish version of the Bible are just that, rumors. As for the Topical Guide, I agree that it is o.k.. However can we all agree that footnoting say “wash” as “TG Washing” is just plain useless and should be removed? (I just randomly opened to 2 Chronicles 4:6 and found that particular gem, they are on every page). The problem with the summaries is that they tend to pigeon hole LDS into thinking that’s what the chapter means. Take the most egregious example I can think of, Isaiah 14. The summary reads the chapter typologically and eschatologically. The problem is that the chapter itself almost certainly refers to events in Isaiah’s lifetime, otherwise the details of the chapter don’t make sense. In fact, look at footnote 12c and you will see that the footnote basically says the chapter summary is incomplete at best, misleading at worst. However, most lazy people will just read the summary and then ignore anything in the chapter that would contradict the summary. Better to just let the lazy remain stupid and ignorant:) It’s funny you should bring this up. I have been teaching seminary this year (OT). At this point I am sick of the blank stares of the students after having read the KJV. Class pretty much goes like this 1) Read a passage, 2) Ask if anyone understands it, 3) No one does, 4) I attempt to parse out the KJV but it is mind numbing, and so I 5) Just read the passage again in the NRSV. Lather, rinse, repeat. I was asked if I wanted to teach NT next year. Teaching Paul from the KJV appeals to me like getting dental work done by someone having a seizure. I said I would love to teach if I can use something other than the KJV, as in someones buy enough cheap copies of a good translation to put in each student’s hands (basically that means spending $5-6 a student). Any predictions? |
Danithew, try reading some other bibles. If people can quit smoking, surely you can quit the KJV. matt b, I read the NRSV most of the time also, because it’s available as the text of the New Interpretters Bible and The Oxford Study Bible. And you’re right that the NIV is more strongly associated with evangelicals than other bibles. Ronan, joshua madson, tiredmormon, I’m glad we agree. mmiles, there’s nothing inately poetic about Jacobean English. In fact, the KJV regularly destroys the poetic structure of the underlying Hebrew, because it’s translators didn’t know enough about Hebrew to recognize it and therefore took to measures to preserve it in their translations. In this sense, the translations made in the past 20 years are substantially more poetic than the ham fisted KJV crap. As far as the “poetic quality of the language,” I’ll grant that there are brief moments of clarity and brilliance. Most of these are just a few verses, an none of them extend beyond a couple dozen verses. The reason why the KJV appears defensible is that it is eminantly quotable in spite of the fact that it’s very nearly unreadable. So the question is a simple one: do you want a Bible you can quote, or a bible you can read? The Yellow Dart, anon, PHolland, I disagree that the style of the Book of Mormon language is similar to Jacobean English. If you take any 20 verses from the Book of Mormon (verses that don’t quote the Old Testament) and compare them to any 20 verses from the King James Bible, you’ll recognize a profound difference in style. The Book of Mormon text is heavy-handed, 19th century ecclesiastical speech. It’s what people thought scripture was supposed to sound like thanks to the influence of the King James Bible, but at its root the language of the Book of Mormon is no more different from ours than the language of Nathanial Hawthorne or Washington Irving. Regarding the fact that the bible passages in the Book of Mormon are derivative from the KJV, I do think that may cause a concern about switching among the leadership. I don’t think that it’s a valid one. The New Testament quotes the Septuigent, but we still use a Bible whose Old Testament is based on the Mesoretic Text. Besides, there’s no reason not to update the Book of Mormon. When they translate the Book of Mormon into other languages, do they take care to ensure that the biblical quotations match the preferred bible? Gar, the Greek for the New Testament of the RSV was altogether different from that of the KJV. Thanks to scholarship of Westcott and Hort, they relied more heavily on Alexandrian texts. The New Testament text used by the KJV translators is evolved from the Greek New Testament put together by Erasmus, which he put together in quite a hurry and ended up being fairly low quality. Moreover, it is based heavily on the Byzantine Texts, and the scholarly consensus for the past 150 years is that the Alexandrian texts are more reliable. Joshua Clark’s book Why the King James Version? goes into the Westcott/Hort theory in some detail, and it has the best laymen’s explanation of their work that I’ve read. I recommend it for anyone interested in learning more about the New Testament. Clark basically ends up arguing that the New Testament text is so fundamentally unreliable that there’s no real sense in departing from traditional renderings in favor of what amounts to scholarly guesswork. Clark is right that the textual basis for the New Testament is an ontological fiction, but I don’t share his lawyer’s distrust for academia. Plus, my feeling is that the traditional renderings are more influenced by 3rd and 4th century superstition than by truth. Bookslinger and Clark, I agree that the Jerusalem Bible is top notch. The New Jerusalem Bible (which is really just a revision of the Jerusalem Bible, in spite of it’s apocalyptic-sounding name) is even better. The study bible edition has terrific introductions and notes. I don’t include it in my list, because it’s predominantly associated with Catholics. Bookslinger, I don’t personally think that the ESV is outstanding. It’s a high quality translation, but doesn’t have much to recommend it beyond the fact that it’s not the NRSV. As I mention, the Revised English Bible is my favorite. The NRSV is a very close second, and the New Jerusalem Bible is a very respectable third. I like the RSV, and I have fairly bland feelings about the ESV, and the other Bibles I list all have something about them that irritates me, though I could live with them as an alternative to the KJV. Dan, I agree with you that reading the facsimile of the Book of Mormon 1st edition is very different from the numbered-verse format. The difference illustrates the profound impact that the formatting and word-grouping have on a text. I’d love to see the next version of the Book of Mormon have actual paragraphs with verses shown as superscripts. Just a light-hearted example of the formatting impact: In the facsimile Book of Mormon, the sentence “my father lived in a tent” is just buried in a paragraph. In the modern edition, it’s on its own line, which lends it artificial emphasis. After reading the facsimile edition, I laugh when I hear missionaries try to extract doctrinal meaning from Orson Pratt’s choice to make that single sentence into its own verse, and our choice to format the text to emphasize the verse unit. ESO and CatherineWO, I’d like to see more bible options in general available in the LDS format. I already own 35+ translations of the bible. The reason I want to see it in the LDS study bible is because I find that the resources it provides are very helpful to scripture study. PHolland, my ancient language skills aren’t up to the task of translating. I did take ancient Greek in college, but only because it gave the same foreign language credits as other foreign languages without a lab. Less work, same credit. I don’t know why everyone doesn’t study ancient languages. John Hamer, I went through a phase where I collected and read bibles (I had to do something with my free time before there was blogging). In the process, I read the entire Bible more times than I actually counted. Maybe in the teens. Somewhere in my basement I have an entire box of notes I took on the Book of Isaiah, reading it repeatedly in different translations alongside as many different commentaries as I could find at the BYU library. The funny thing about it was that I did all of my studying and reading after I’d become an atheist. |
I think we use the KJV because it retains the use of the terms “celestial”, “telestial” and “terestrial” and some other words which are felt to be important in LDS doctrine and have gained cultural significance. Also, there are some mistranslations that elderly LDS rely on for Doctrinal justification, such as Rev 1:6 . Lastly, I think there would be an oucry if we moved away from the free KJV (copyright wise) to an owned entity like the NRSV or ESV, and further an outcry if we didn’t move to the JST, so I think the church is holding to what is has for a compound of reasons, and is simply not pushing any single translation as having significance. |
I suppose I should mention BYU’s New Testament translation project, led by John Hall. At a talk at a conference I attended he described this very exciting and overwhelming project. He describes some of the issues touched on by DKL. And a few more. There are some who believe that if you just know enough Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc., you can render the sense of the phrase perfectly. The basic problem is that it’s impossible to separate our theological biases from the work of translation. So wouldn’t it be neat if we could do a translation of the Bible that’s informed by what we know but in a way that is still true to the meaning of the texts? We don’t want to distort the meaning, but there is a lot of light that the scriptures can shed on our doctrine. Not as a way to prove that we’re right to the rest of the world, but to deepen our own understanding. For example, John Hall says the passage in John (KJV) that reads, “if you love me keep my commandments” he could render it better as “if you love him, stand watch as a sentry awaiting his every instruction.” In other words, it is about being ready to receive continuing revelation, but the Church of England’s theological biases would never allow the phrase to be rendered that way, even though it’s a perfectly reasonable translation. Hall isn’t saying they deliberately buried this meaning; more probably it didn’t even occur to them. But Hall believes his translation is more correct. Another example is John 1:1 where the word arche is rendered “in the beginning” but could just as well have been rendered “at the head of the counsel” Another problem is we now know a lot more about the textual variants which have now been systematically studied and compiled. From the earliest to latest we have papyrus manuscripts, and then parchment unicals and parchment miniscules. Very few of them are complete, but there is overlap. Hall, following J. Reuben Clark, is a fan of the Bezae codex from the fifth century. These are minutae that might not interest all, but the point is that many older Bible translations (and even some recent ones) don’t take this into account. The King James was actually mostly translated from the Jerome’s Latin Vulgate, and relied heavily on earlier English Bibles as well, so my impression is that the KJV was more a derivative work than a genuinely new translation. The shame is even some newer translations don’t incorporate as much as they could of this new understandings of the variants and the work of establishing a critical text of the New Testament. I do point out that John Hall isn’t saying this Bible will replace the KJV as our official bible, but should provide a helpful additional text for members to consult. I was happy to see that the John Hall’s presentation on this subject that I attended is now online here: http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2007_As_Far_As_It_Is_Translated_Correctly.html There is another report on this online, but from a participants’ notes that haven’t been reviewed by Hall, so make allowance for transcription and other errors: For me, I love the KJV and am happy to continue using it, but I consult a number of other translations as well. My favorite is probably the French Chouraqui translation, maybe sometime soon I’ll post some of the parts of that translation I really enjoyed. For those who want to compare translations, there is a great resource online called http://www.biblegateway.com where you can consult a large number of English and Foreign-language Bible translations, including the NIV and NASB. (Though not the RSV or NRSV). But I am really excited to see what comes out of this New Testament Commentary. The first volumes are due out this year. |
DKL– Maybe all those of us studying Greek and Hebrew should abandon it for the study of Jacobean English, since the KJV is what we are stuck with.:) |
Oh sure, first the Bible, then a revised BofM, soon we all slide down the slippery slope until we all use common, even casual, language in prayer. “Please let your will be done.” |
I think we use the KJV because it retains the use of the terms “celestial”, “telestial” and “terestrial” Whoa, hold on there Matt. I don’t think you’ll find “telestial” in the Bible. Up until a certain phone company adopted the term, it was almost completely exclusive to Mormonism. |
In my opinion, the only place the KJV excels regarding poetry is that it tends to be a literal translation. As such, the rhythms of the Hebrew poetry tend to be preserved. Unfortunately, that slight advantage is completely offset by the KJV newspaper-column formatting. So very wrong! |
While it is true that the Book of Mormon is not completely written in the same style as the KJV, as I wrote earlier, it is written in a style that seems close to it, although probably easier to understand. My grandmother was not well-educated and read a Bible translated in her language. I suspect it may have been a Catholic Bible. I also know that she never had the opportunity to read the Book of Mormon because the translation she could read was not published until long after her death. My grandmother was a faithful member of the Church despite her lack of understanding of the gospel as those of us who are more educated understand it. Her faith is what held her, simple as it was. Perhaps my grandmother’s example helps me understand what is most important about learning the gospel. It is to live it as we learn it and the Spirit will teach us and testify of the truth to us. |
DKL,
That’s a perfect example of how the formatting changes the intent and meaning of particular verses. The “tent” verse disappears in a paragraph as just a simple description of the situation. I don’t know how most members would take to a switch to the original (or paragraphed) formatting. It is denser and weightier. You’ve got to pay closer attention to what you are reading. The longer chapters feel more daunting. I just like that it is uncluttered, that I have a version of the Book of Mormon that has no extra items beyond the text itself. I like being able to focus solely on Mormon’s compilation and not its connections to this or that text in the Bible. |
I had no idea mormons argued about which version of the Bible to use. I find this humorous. |
Lauren - I didn’t seen this as an argument at all. It’s probably the most civil discourse of any of the current threads. The only Bible the church publishes is the KJV, but fundamentally there is nothing wrong with consulting other translations, since we “believe the Bible to be the word of God as long as it is translated correctly.” |
So if our own ideas inform our translation, then who do you suppose should do the translation of Song of Solomon? Depending on who tranlates that book, it could get really interesting. |
DKL, I have other translations of the Bible in the house. I also can get around in the Hebrew Bible, which is a blessing. I wish I had studied koine Greek by now. That’s still something I want to do. I’d like to see the Church develop a system of some sort for teaching it’s members Old Testament Hebrew and New Testament Greek. I think it would be worthwhile - especially since we encourage our members to make a lifelong study of the scriptures. With the seminary and university system being what it is - and all the encouragement we give to get more education - it’s probably not all that irrational to encourage people to go that extra step. So I guess what I’m saying is the whole “get the best translation” business is not going far enough. |
By the way, I like the story of Joseph and Asenath as well. It’s great reading and quite inspirational. I have no idea what basis (beyond marginal) it has in reality. |
I suppose I should mention BYU’s New Testament translation project, led by John Hall. I am sure that all an sundry will disagree, but I don’t think this is a good idea. First, doing something like this entirely in house is a bad idea. One of the most popular critiques of the NET Bible is that it was done in house by the Dallas Theological Seminary. The problem with doing this is that you tend to get inbred ideas and biases by having a tight knit group of people working on this. By contrast the NRSV was produced by Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, and at least one Jew working in council. The chance of getting weird translations or biases through a group like that is pretty slim (though still possible). Second, I am worried that people get chosen for projects like that because they are “Good Mormons” and not because they are well qualified. I am sure that someone will want to jump in and testify as to how everyone on the team is top notch, well-qualified, etc. The problem is that Mormons, especially on matters religious, tend to publish in the Mormon publishing ghetto, not in peer reviewed outlets. While peer review is no guarantee of quality, it does raise the likelihood of quality. Because Mormons don’t do this it is harder to know what well qualified means. Third, I just hope this doesn’t become the de facto work for Mormons to consult on all things New Testament. People tend to make the association of “Made By Mormons” = “Inspired” = “I should read that” = “Everything else is crap.” |
When I say argument, I don’t mean a nasty fight… I just mean a conversation about which version of the Bible “the Church” should use. I’m not Mormon, but I do believe in using the KJV. I believe it is the inerrant word of God… I found this because of my King James Version Google alert. |
Thanks for stopping by, Lauren. |
Thanks DKL - this is great, I really appreciate it. I agree entirely that there are other versions of the Bible that are more clear. |
Wasn’t BYU NT Translation project much more about doing an LDS styled Anchor Bible commentary? Each volume in the Anchor Bible Commentary series had its own translation emphasizing the issues the author sees in the text. My understanding is that the LDS commentary project isn’t doing too well though. If it got off the ground and was done in a very academic style while bringing up LDS theology it would be very valuable. I’m just dubious about it happening. |
Lauren, The KJV is the version that is used by the body of the church. The KJV is taught in Sunday school and seminary. When the central authorities of the church cite to biblical verse, they cite the KJV. I’m not certain of the history, but I believe this has been the case since the establishment of the church. There is, however, no prohibition against studying other legitimate translations or referencing them in church lessons. There is no significant discussion within the church about changing the “official” version, nor is there any clamor from the body of the chruch for a change. We here in the bloggernacle just like to show how studious we are in talking about all the various versions of the Bible we have read. We also like to flatter ourselves into thinking that what we post here will have an impact beyond our periodic rants. That said, I also find this discussion interesting. I barely have enough time to study the standard scriptures, let alone embark on delving into all the various iterations. Maybe some day I will have more time, then I will be as enlightened as DKL. For now, I’ll probably buy an NRSV, since I generally respect DKL’s literary opinion, and give it a read along with my KJV. |
Thanks Lauren, |
PHolland, Careful reading of both the KJV and the BoM will show that they are not that similar. The BoM has a subset of KJV vocabulary but that is about it. The language is substantially simpler. The KJV is a mess and makes the bible inaccessible. I bought a NSRV last year for New Testament study. My comprehension was immeasurably enhanced. I case you’re thinking, “Well he’s just stupid and doesn’t have the vocabulary to comprehend the KJV,” I have a few responses. First, you’d be making my point for me. One should not need to have an amazing vocabulary to have access to the gospel. Second, if it is so clear, why aren’t conference talks given in KJV English? Third, do you think that Christ preached in some antiquated vernacular? Do you think the people that heard him had to scratch their heads and wonder at his choice of words? Assuming that he preached in modern (for his time) language then doesn’t it make sense to read his words in language that is currently in active use? Finally, I have a fairly large vocabulary and reasonably reading comprehension skills. Not to toot my own horn, but I’ve gotten perfect scores on the English sections of standardized tests. If I am missing out when reading the KJV then 99% of the population is as well. |
Matt W, the KJV uses the word Telestial exactly as many times as it uses chocolate. The solution to the copyright issue is twofold: (a) introduce the alternate translation as an additional choice, so that the KJV is still available, and (b) make the alternative translation available at a slightly high cost to pass on the cost of the copyright. The church doesn’t make a heck of a lot of money off of it’s scriptures. The deluxe leather-bound study scriptures are the cheapest high-quality scriptures I’ve ever seen — by a mile! A small additional charge to cover licensing would be altogether fair, and it would speed adoption as owning the alternative translation became a status symbol. We’ll never move to the JST. First of all, it would further distances us from the rest of christianity, both in their perceptions and in reality. Second, adopting the JST would be a major doctrinal shift. The JST was never complete, and Joseph Smith was continually revising it to match his evolving theology. Before 1838, he was systematically clarifying all biblical references that could imply plurality of Gods so that they were unambiguously singular. After 1838, he began systematically reversing the earlier revisions. This is what is meant when the church euphemistically indicates that he never finished it. It is in an incomplete state that is theologically inconsistent and represents at best a cross-section of Joseph Smith’s theological development. Furthermore, let’s keep in mind also that the JST is not doctrine. It is not scripture. It is not revealed truth. It is a study guide. The considered opinion of a man who’s personal judgements about the scriptures we have reason to trust. That’s the official position of the church, that’s what the scholarship supports, and we mustn’t pretend anything more. Jeff Bennion, I don’t think that a BYU translation is a good idea. Such a translation would quickly become known as a non-Christian bible. The advantage of using a Bible with a strong brand recognition (like the RSV or NRSV or KJV) is that there is no risk of it becoming known as “the Mormon version of the Bible.” If ever a bible that we used become known as that, it would make it much harder to communicate our beliefs to the rest of the world. And, frankly, I just don’t have much confidence in BYU as a center of scholarship. The KJV is not a translation of the Vulgate. It is a translation of texts of the original language (the Hebrew Bible plus what became known as Textus Receptus, a modified version of the later editions of Erasmus’s greek New Testament), though it departs from these where needed to meet the expectations created by previous versions of the Bible, primary among which was the Vulgate, but also earlier English translations. It must be understood that translating the Bible into English was itself a very controversial undertaking, and that a primary (unspoken) goal of the translators was to ensure that the content of the translation itself was as uncontroversial as possible. mmiles, I think studying Jacobean English is a terrific idea! Especially given how easy it is to understand good Jacobean English. And there’s a wealth of really great English literature from that period, including John Ford, John Fletcher, and the most popular plays of Ben Johnson. If you want to read good Jacobean English, that’s your ticket. Plus, if you’re familiar with Shakespeare (a thorough-going Elizabethan, even if his last few plays extended into the reign of James I), you’ll quickly see many of the differences of the Jacobean era. Steven B, one of the advantages of the RSV that I neglected to mention is this: it preserves the thee/thou/thy/thine usage in for 2nd person pronouns tat refer to deity. PHolland, I agree that reading, studying, and pondering is key. The Church Handbook of Instructions instructs bishops to recommend prayer over alternative translations. But there’s a limit to how much pondering can mitigate language that fails to communicate. If there were not, I could choose to pick up a Swahili version of the bible to pray and ponder over. I’ve addressed the JST issue in my response to Matt W, above. Lauren, the problem is that we Mormons don’t discuss which version of the Bible to use very often. Instead, the KJV is generally taken to be the definitive Bible, rather than one that was chosen for practical reasons (reasons that were very good at the time). In my household as a child, I was raised to view other versions of the Bible with distrust. I know many Mormons today who view other versions of the Bible with distrust. Some people actually do prefer the KJV, and I respect that. My opinion is that we benefit from having more openness to different translations. Thanks for participating. I’m glad you found us. Dan Ellsworth, I think there are some great books in the Apocrypha. My favorite is Tobit. I told a story from Tobit to illustrate a doctrinal point at my missionary farewell. Word got back to me a few years later that I’d quoted the Koran. That’s how Mormons are. danithew, I think that’s an outstanding idea. I think that church-sponsored Greek or Hebrew study groups would be tremendous. David Clark, I agree with you on every count. A Mormon version of the Bible would quickly be ghettoized, and I don’t believe BYU is up to the task. |
Jesus didn’t speak to his followers in some strange language. He spoke in their common language so they could understand the clearest. |
To those who have complained about the modern versification (I believe it was Orson Pratt, not Orson Hyde, who did that) and unreadability of the Book of Mormon, I should also mention Grant Hardy’s Reader’s Edition of the Book of Mormon. It has little unobtrusive verse markers and has formatted the text the way more modern translations do. I’ve been reading it and enjoy it. I read the 1st edition Book of Mormon, but there are legibility issues with it, so I think Hardy’s edition is better if you’re just interested in readbility. And DKL, I misspoke when I referred to Hall’s work at BYU as a translation project. It’s a Commentary which will discuss the various ways to render the text and also the various variants. Someone asked him if they would come out with their own New Testament and he categorically ruled it out. I doubt the Church will undertake it. I hung around after his talk and someone asked him if he thought there was a better translation, and he said we should do what Joseph Smith was doing, and said we all should do, which is to learn to read it in the original languages. He seemed to think this was within the grasp of most Church members. So there’s something I guess I should put on my list! Another study help I like is Strong’s Lexicon. It’s great to consult on a computer version because you click around and see all the places a particular Greek or Hebrew word is used in the Bible and how it is rendered in the KJV (or other) translations. |
Jota G: We here in the bloggernacle just like to show how studious we are in talking about all the various versions of the Bible we have read. We also like to flatter ourselves into thinking that what we post here will have an impact beyond our periodic rants. My, my. |
DKL, Can you explain the difference between the Catholic version of the NRSV and the Standard. Why does the Catholic have the Maccabees and other titles like Judith and Tobit? |
Dan, there’s a very good entry on the apocrypha in the LDS Bible Dictionary. Here’s what I have to add: There are Old Testament books that the orthodox christian churches canonized, even though the Jews never recognized them as scriptures. These are the books that are being referred to when people use the term apocrypha (though people do use the term apocrypha in different senses). When Protestantism became more established and institutionalized in Europe, the basis for every decision ever made by orthodox Christian churches (principally, the Catholic Church) came under question. Until the late 17th century, all complete Bible translations into English century contained the apocryphal books of the Catholic Church — including the KJV, which was originally published with a full compliment of the Catholic apocryphal books. Protestant churches had a strong incentive to differentiate themselves from orthodox churches, and questioning the validity of decisions of canonicity was a primary method of differentiation. By 1599, versions of the Geneva Bible began to appear without the apocrypha. In 1666, the apocrypha was dropped from the official printings of the KJV. By the 18th century, it had become a scriptural sideshow outside of Catholicism. Orthodox churches consider the books labeled apocrypha by protestants to be on an equal footing with the books whose canonicity is not disputed by protestants. So that they don’t conceive of two separate canons, one of which is more reliable than the other. As such, in a Catholic bible, the apocryphal books are interspersed with the other books of the Old Testament, and not placed in their own section as they are in protestant Bibles. Does that answer your question? |
DKL, I know. Truth hurts. I did throw you a bone: “For now, I’ll probably buy an NRSV, since I generally respect DKL’s literary opinion, and give it a read along with my KJV.” |
Take it with a grain of salt. I’m on my way to a multi-stake boy scout encampment. That my add color to my bitter commentary. |
DKL, Thanks for that answer. Would you recommend that particular version to someone like me who has not delved into a non-KJV Bible? |
Just a note - in regards to the New Testament, I really like the J.B. Phillips translation. It reads very well, in a plain respectful style that can be quite moving all the same. Here’s an example of how Matthew 1:18-21 reads:
Here’s the translation of 1 Corinthians 15:29 (which we might happen to care about):
I should add that it was Don Norton, an English professor at BYU, who suggested (to a class) that we give this translation a try. I really liked/respected him as a professor and wasn’t disappointed with his suggestion either. |
A random John When I lived in Saudi Arabia a friend of the family told us of an Arab who read the Book of Mormon in Arabic. He loved the BoM in Arabic and commented that the language of the BoM was beautiful. he loved it so much that he got his other Arab friends to read the Book of Mormon. These guys were Muslims. What is interesting to me is that the Isaiah chapters of the Book of Mormon is not the same word for word as the Bible translation (Isaiah 48 to 1 Nephi 20)and is probably clearer in meaning. My simple comment had more to do with the difference in the English used in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon to the way we speak American English. I realize such simplification of the comparison makes for huge errors. The idea is that the language is very different from what is spoken today. I leave the discussion or debate of translation to those who have a more scholarly opinion on the difficulty of reading scripture translated by those who may not have been the best translators, who made mistakes, and who may have also been deviant, and who may not have had a Urim and Thummim to help them. They also had to translate from other translations which, to me, only creates a larger problem. Joseph Smith used the Urim and Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon in a short period of time. One translator carefully monitored by God. Would that we had such a person to translate the Bible years before? A perfect score in English or a lack of English skills as my grandmother had doesn’t make a difference in the long run. Either way both of you manage to know the doctrines taught in the Bible. Perhaps that contrast is enough to show us that reading the scriptures is what is more important despite the frustration with the language, and by reading the scripture we will glean from them what we need to know to return to God. DKL My point is that we have other scriptures and a modern day prophet and apostles to teach us what we should glean from the scriptures we read in the Bible. I suppose that if we had all of the original documents written by those who kept the records as instructed by the Lord, the Lord would have the Bible retranslated. As it is, the only part he wanted corrected, which is canonized, is Matthew 24. The Lord didn’t seem concerned by anything else. The Bible is important and our LDS scriptures are rooted in the Bible. I don’t think, though, that we hold up any scripture the same way as some believers might hold them up—as a symbol of their faith and belief. Nevertheless, the Bible is the common scripture of all Christians and I think this is why the Church continues to use the older English translation, the King James Version. Much of the doctrines we teach are found there. It seems that despite it’s difficult reading we were able to get from it the important teachings necessary for eternal life. If so, then reading the KJV must not have been as difficult to understand, just cumbersome reading. |
PHolland, You contradict yourself: A perfect score in English or a lack of English skills as my grandmother had doesn’t make a difference in the long run. and then to DKL: I wouldn’t pick up a Bible written in Swahili and tempt God by praying to him to help me understand the scriptures in a language I don’t know. Yet reading the KJV is reading the Bible in a language that is not your primary language. I would guess that I read KJV English only slightly better than I read my Portuguese Book of Mormon. Reading the KJV is the rough equivalent of reading the Bible in a second language. Why insist on holding fast to an artificial barrier to comprehension? Nobody is suggesting burning or banning the KJV, just having people study a Bible written in their own language. |
DKL, I agree with you on the KJV, especially the New Testament. I find Romans completely unintelligible in the KJV, and out of desperation I picked up the NIV and then said to myself, “oh, NOW I know what Paul was saying and why Romans is so important.” However, I think you may want to consider that it is important for Latter-day Saints to read the KJV because some of the language from the KJV is in temple ceremonies and “rings true” to people during temple ceremonies because it reminds them of things they have read in the standard works. Having said that, I encourage my progeny to read the KJV and also my favorite Bible in the world, the Zondervan Archeological Study Bible (NIV version). I think you can really begin understanding the Bible better through two versions, not just the KJV. |
DKL, You said this earlier The Church Handbook of Instructions instructs bishops to recommend prayer over alternative translations. Did you read this in the current handbook of instructions? I can only get my hands on the 1998 version, and it just says the KJV is the official Bible in English, nothing about prayer. The reason I ask is because as I said earlier that I was trying to get something more readable in the hands of my students in seminary. If that’s the position in the most current CHI, then the position is even more severe than the 1998 version and I should just throw in the towel on this one. |
David, I’m referring to the old CHI that |