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Oh I don’t know … after using the KJV for this long in life, I’m kind of sentimental about it. |
agreed, change it |
Ummmm I am having a tough time reading and understanding this long blog…. Could you put this in KJV format so I could understand it better…:) |
The NRSV is my preferred Bible. The NIV is that preferred by most conservative evangelical groups; its translation was prompted by theological dissatisfaction with the RSV’s version of such prooftexts as Isaiah 7:14, and it has actually faced criticism over passages like that, or its reconcilation of the contradictory visions of Paul in Acts 9 and 22. |
You have my bow. |
My only concern is would the poetic witing style be completetly gone? Otherwise, amen! |
I say we all just learn Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. However, I realize not everyone thinks that is a realistic endeavor. I use the NRSV (Oxford Annotated Ed.) for personal reading (I really detest the NIV). I think it is useful and worthwhile to be more than just a little familiar with the KJV translation, its manner of expression, and its idioms, however, since it is the style of language used and quoted in the BofM (another reason I think the Church might prefer the KJV, though that’s just my own speculation) and in the personal writings of some important past historical figures. |
OK I have my boss reading here now and he has a question on the RSV Bible, he would like to know “What is the source of the text used in the new versions? Are they revisions of the KJV or did they go back to older texts in Hebrew and/or Greek.” |
Suggestion: If anyone wants to get inexpensive paper-back copies of these, go to American Bible Society, http://www.Bibles.com and There are several “parallel Bibles” published, with 2 or 4 translations side by side. You can get them at http://www.amazon.com for a significant savings than if you buy them from the publisher, usually Zondervan or IBS or Thomas. DKL: I forget why, but I checked out the ESV and didn’t like it for some reason. The KJV NT isn’t that bad, but I had to use a parallel Bible (KJV, NIV, NLT, NASB) to get through the OT. The KJV translators just weren’t as good with Hebrew as they were with Greek. One translation that does keep a nice poetic and elegent “read” to it is the Jerusalem Bible. That was my first Bible back in the 70’s. Having a working knowledge of some of these is a good counter to those who accuse the church of changing the Book of Mormon. Look at what Christian scholars have done with the Bible! They’ve changed it, or at least changed what it means. \And they still can’t agree on the correct/best English translation. Gar: Look at the introductions. They usually say what source texts they used. All the major ones use the Hebrew/Greek as sources. |
Can DKL get an amen? AMEN! |
I really like reading the original edition of the Book of Mormon. I prefer that kind of formatting for my scripture. I find that we focus too much on one particular verse or another in the current format instead of the larger text or context. I’ll have to consider reading some of these other versions of the Bible. |
Thou wretch! The Bloggernacle revileth thee! |
Well Bookslinger… I was kind of hoping I would not have to go purchase one, on the off chance we would never accept it as “correct”, and that it would just be made known unto me here… |
Gar, |
Personally, I would like a red-word Bible…. |
and then maybe we could redo the manuals too! amen to this idea–who has the ear of the GAs to pass this along? if members around the world can read their bibles in modern japanese etc, why should we be stuck with shakespearean english? |
The KJV is in the same language as the BoM. It’s the Bible Joseph Smith used. It’s not always the easiest to read, but it makes readers think a bit more, and isn’t that the point? To actually think and study the Bible? Plus, it’s beautiful language. |
My favorite is the Jerusalem Bible although I can’t get straight it’s relation to the French Jerusalem Bible which came first. It’s a Catholic translation but captures poetry very well. My next favorite is the NASB although it’s a bit too beholden to higher criticism and does some weird verse renumbering in places. It’s also Catholic and it’s a bit more apparent in some places. I always check against a KJV just because so much jargon in our other standard works comes from it. |
I worked in a small independent bookstore for ten years, and I would often pull a different version of the Bible off the shelf to read on a break. I particularly liked the NIV, but all of them were enlightening, in one way or another. Certainly, there is nothing to prevent Church members from using these other Bibles as references in their scripture study. Which version or edition is the “official” LDS tome doesn’t really make much difference to me personally. However, for sheer poetry, the KJV is unsurpassed. It was in my reading of (and listening to my mother read) I Corinthians that I fell in love with words and language. Nothing describes life more accuarately than “..now we see through a glass, darkly…”, nor the hope of Eternity better than “…then shall I know even as also I am known.” (see I Corinthians 13:12 KJV) |
English,in ancient times, was considered a common lnaguage compared to Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. Nevertheless, the attempt and, finally, the success of translating it made it possible for even a plowboy to read it. I find that I pay more attention to the text because it is written in a style I am not used to, yet read often enough becomes easier in the long run. I like the KJV mostly because its old language gives it a unique and sacred feel. Modern day English tends to take away from that.Joseph Smith’s translations use the same style as the KJV. Perhaps God prefers that style, too. |
You’ve read all of these versions of the Bible cover to cover? Hats off to you, sir; I find it hard to read the prophets at all. I thoroughly agree with your point — the KJV is completely out of date. If we believe, like Mitt Romney, that the Bible is the word of God, holding onto a poor translation separates us from hearing God’s actual words. |
I think the church should just get out of the Bible production business completely. For every language except English they have not yet entered into the business. I hope all of the rumors that they are producing a LDS Spanish version of the Bible are just that, rumors. As for the Topical Guide, I agree that it is o.k.. However can we all agree that footnoting say “wash” as “TG Washing” is just plain useless and should be removed? (I just randomly opened to 2 Chronicles 4:6 and found that particular gem, they are on every page). The problem with the summaries is that they tend to pigeon hole LDS into thinking that’s what the chapter means. Take the most egregious example I can think of, Isaiah 14. The summary reads the chapter typologically and eschatologically. The problem is that the chapter itself almost certainly refers to events in Isaiah’s lifetime, otherwise the details of the chapter don’t make sense. In fact, look at footnote 12c and you will see that the footnote basically says the chapter summary is incomplete at best, misleading at worst. However, most lazy people will just read the summary and then ignore anything in the chapter that would contradict the summary. Better to just let the lazy remain stupid and ignorant:) It’s funny you should bring this up. I have been teaching seminary this year (OT). At this point I am sick of the blank stares of the students after having read the KJV. Class pretty much goes like this 1) Read a passage, 2) Ask if anyone understands it, 3) No one does, 4) I attempt to parse out the KJV but it is mind numbing, and so I 5) Just read the passage again in the NRSV. Lather, rinse, repeat. I was asked if I wanted to teach NT next year. Teaching Paul from the KJV appeals to me like getting dental work done by someone having a seizure. I said I would love to teach if I can use something other than the KJV, as in someones buy enough cheap copies of a good translation to put in each student’s hands (basically that means spending $5-6 a student). Any predictions? |
Danithew, try reading some other bibles. If people can quit smoking, surely you can quit the KJV. matt b, I read the NRSV most of the time also, because it’s available as the text of the New Interpretters Bible and The Oxford Study Bible. And you’re right that the NIV is more strongly associated with evangelicals than other bibles. Ronan, joshua madson, tiredmormon, I’m glad we agree. mmiles, there’s nothing inately poetic about Jacobean English. In fact, the KJV regularly destroys the poetic structure of the underlying Hebrew, because it’s translators didn’t know enough about Hebrew to recognize it and therefore took to measures to preserve it in their translations. In this sense, the translations made in the past 20 years are substantially more poetic than the ham fisted KJV crap. As far as the “poetic quality of the language,” I’ll grant that there are brief moments of clarity and brilliance. Most of these are just a few verses, an none of them extend beyond a couple dozen verses. The reason why the KJV appears defensible is that it is eminantly quotable in spite of the fact that it’s very nearly unreadable. So the question is a simple one: do you want a Bible you can quote, or a bible you can read? The Yellow Dart, anon, PHolland, I disagree that the style of the Book of Mormon language is similar to Jacobean English. If you take any 20 verses from the Book of Mormon (verses that don’t quote the Old Testament) and compare them to any 20 verses from the King James Bible, you’ll recognize a profound difference in style. The Book of Mormon text is heavy-handed, 19th century ecclesiastical speech. It’s what people thought scripture was supposed to sound like thanks to the influence of the King James Bible, but at its root the language of the Book of Mormon is no more different from ours than the language of Nathanial Hawthorne or Washington Irving. Regarding the fact that the bible passages in the Book of Mormon are derivative from the KJV, I do think that may cause a concern about switching among the leadership. I don’t think that it’s a valid one. The New Testament quotes the Septuigent, but we still use a Bible whose Old Testament is based on the Mesoretic Text. Besides, there’s no reason not to update the Book of Mormon. When they translate the Book of Mormon into other languages, do they take care to ensure that the biblical quotations match the preferred bible? Gar, the Greek for the New Testament of the RSV was altogether different from that of the KJV. Thanks to scholarship of Westcott and Hort, they relied more heavily on Alexandrian texts. The New Testament text used by the KJV translators is evolved from the Greek New Testament put together by Erasmus, which he put together in quite a hurry and ended up being fairly low quality. Moreover, it is based heavily on the Byzantine Texts, and the scholarly consensus for the past 150 years is that the Alexandrian texts are more reliable. Joshua Clark’s book Why the King James Version? goes into the Westcott/Hort theory in some detail, and it has the best laymen’s explanation of their work that I’ve read. I recommend it for anyone interested in learning more about the New Testament. Clark basically ends up arguing that the New Testament text is so fundamentally unreliable that there’s no real sense in departing from traditional renderings in favor of what amounts to scholarly guesswork. Clark is right that the textual basis for the New Testament is an ontological fiction, but I don’t share his lawyer’s distrust for academia. Plus, my feeling is that the traditional renderings are more influenced by 3rd and 4th century superstition than by truth. Bookslinger and Clark, I agree that the Jerusalem Bible is top notch. The New Jerusalem Bible (which is really just a revision of the Jerusalem Bible, in spite of it’s apocalyptic-sounding name) is even better. The study bible edition has terrific introductions and notes. I don’t include it in my list, because it’s predominantly associated with Catholics. Bookslinger, I don’t personally think that the ESV is outstanding. It’s a high quality translation, but doesn’t have much to recommend it beyond the fact that it’s not the NRSV. As I mention, the Revised English Bible is my favorite. The NRSV is a very close second, and the New Jerusalem Bible is a very respectable third. I like the RSV, and I have fairly bland feelings about the ESV, and the other Bibles I list all have something about them that irritates me, though I could live with them as an alternative to the KJV. Dan, I agree with you that reading the facsimile of the Book of Mormon 1st edition is very different from the numbered-verse format. The difference illustrates the profound impact that the formatting and word-grouping have on a text. I’d love to see the next version of the Book of Mormon have actual paragraphs with verses shown as superscripts. Just a light-hearted example of the formatting impact: In the facsimile Book of Mormon, the sentence “my father lived in a tent” is just buried in a paragraph. In the modern edition, it’s on its own line, which lends it artificial emphasis. After reading the facsimile edition, I laugh when I hear missionaries try to extract doctrinal meaning from Orson Pratt’s choice to make that single sentence into its own verse, and our choice to format the text to emphasize the verse unit. ESO and CatherineWO, I’d like to see more bible options in general available in the LDS format. I already own 35+ translations of the bible. The reason I want to see it in the LDS study bible is because I find that the resources it provides are very helpful to scripture study. PHolland, my ancient language skills aren’t up to the task of translating. I did take ancient Greek in college, but only because it gave the same foreign language credits as other foreign languages without a lab. Less work, same credit. I don’t know why everyone doesn’t study ancient languages. John Hamer, I went through a phase where I collected and read bibles (I had to do something with my free time before there was blogging). In the process, I read the entire Bible more times than I actually counted. Maybe in the teens. Somewhere in my basement I have an entire box of notes I took on the Book of Isaiah, reading it repeatedly in different translations alongside as many different commentaries as I could find at the BYU library. The funny thing about it was that I did all of my studying and reading after I’d become an atheist. |
I think we use the KJV because it retains the use of the terms “celestial”, “telestial” and “terestrial” and some other words which are felt to be important in LDS doctrine and have gained cultural significance. Also, there are some mistranslations that elderly LDS rely on for Doctrinal justification, such as Rev 1:6 . Lastly, I think there would be an oucry if we moved away from the free KJV (copyright wise) to an owned entity like the NRSV or ESV, and further an outcry if we didn’t move to the JST, so I think the church is holding to what is has for a compound of reasons, and is simply not pushing any single translation as having significance. |
I suppose I should mention BYU’s New Testament translation project, led by John Hall. At a talk at a conference I attended he described this very exciting and overwhelming project. He describes some of the issues touched on by DKL. And a few more. There are some who believe that if you just know enough Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc., you can render the sense of the phrase perfectly. The basic problem is that it’s impossible to separate our theological biases from the work of translation. So wouldn’t it be neat if we could do a translation of the Bible that’s informed by what we know but in a way that is still true to the meaning of the texts? We don’t want to distort the meaning, but there is a lot of light that the scriptures can shed on our doctrine. Not as a way to prove that we’re right to the rest of the world, but to deepen our own understanding. For example, John Hall says the passage in John (KJV) that reads, “if you love me keep my commandments” he could render it better as “if you love him, stand watch as a sentry awaiting his every instruction.” In other words, it is about being ready to receive continuing revelation, but the Church of England’s theological biases would never allow the phrase to be rendered that way, even though it’s a perfectly reasonable translation. Hall isn’t saying they deliberately buried this meaning; more probably it didn’t even occur to them. But Hall believes his translation is more correct. Another example is John 1:1 where the word arche is rendered “in the beginning” but could just as well have been rendered “at the head of the counsel” Another problem is we now know a lot more about the textual variants which have now been systematically studied and compiled. From the earliest to latest we have papyrus manuscripts, and then parchment unicals and parchment miniscules. Very few of them are complete, but there is overlap. Hall, following J. Reuben Clark, is a fan of the Bezae codex from the fifth century. These are minutae that might not interest all, but the point is that many older Bible translations (and even some recent ones) don’t take this into account. The King James was actually mostly translated from the Jerome’s Latin Vulgate, and relied heavily on earlier English Bibles as well, so my impression is that the KJV was more a derivative work than a genuinely new translation. The shame is even some newer translations don’t incorporate as much as they could of this new understandings of the variants and the work of establishing a critical text of the New Testament. I do point out that John Hall isn’t saying this Bible will replace the KJV as our official bible, but should provide a helpful additional text for members to consult. I was happy to see that the John Hall’s presentation on this subject that I attended is now online here: http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2007_As_Far_As_It_Is_Translated_Correctly.html There is another report on this online, but from a participants’ notes that haven’t been reviewed by Hall, so make allowance for transcription and other errors: For me, I love the KJV and am happy to continue using it, but I consult a number of other translations as well. My favorite is probably the French Chouraqui translation, maybe sometime soon I’ll post some of the parts of that translation I really enjoyed. For those who want to compare translations, there is a great resource online called http://www.biblegateway.com where you can consult a large number of English and Foreign-language Bible translations, including the NIV and NASB. (Though not the RSV or NRSV). But I am really excited to see what comes out of this New Testament Commentary. The first volumes are due out this year. |
DKL– Maybe all those of us studying Greek and Hebrew should abandon it for the study of Jacobean English, since the KJV is what we are stuck with.:) |
Oh sure, first the Bible, then a revised BofM, soon we all slide down the slippery slope until we all use common, even casual, language in prayer. “Please let your will be done.” |
I think we use the KJV because it retains the use of the terms “celestial”, “telestial” and “terestrial” Whoa, hold on there Matt. I don’t think you’ll find “telestial” in the Bible. Up until a certain phone company adopted the term, it was almost completely exclusive to Mormonism. |
In my opinion, the only place the KJV excels regarding poetry is that it tends to be a literal translation. As such, the rhythms of the Hebrew poetry tend to be preserved. Unfortunately, that slight advantage is completely offset by the KJV newspaper-column formatting. So very wrong! |
While it is true that the Book of Mormon is not completely written in the same style as the KJV, as I wrote earlier, it is written in a style that seems close to it, although probably easier to understand. My grandmother was not well-educated and read a Bible translated in her language. I suspect it may have been a Catholic Bible. I also know that she never had the opportunity to read the Book of Mormon because the translation she could read was not published until long after her death. My grandmother was a faithful member of the Church despite her lack of understanding of the gospel as those of us who are more educated understand it. Her faith is what held her, simple as it was. Perhaps my grandmother’s example helps me understand what is most important about learning the gospel. It is to live it as we learn it and the Spirit will teach us and testify of the truth to us. |
DKL,
That’s a perfect example of how the formatting changes the intent and meaning of particular verses. The “tent” verse disappears in a paragraph as just a simple description of the situation. I don’t know how most members would take to a switch to the original (or paragraphed) formatting. It is denser and weightier. You’ve got to pay closer attention to what you are reading. The longer chapters feel more daunting. I just like that it is uncluttered, that I have a version of the Book of Mormon that has no extra items beyond the text itself. I like being able to focus solely on Mormon’s compilation and not its connections to this or that text in the Bible. |
I had no idea mormons argued about which version of the Bible to use. I find this humorous. |
Lauren - I didn’t seen this as an argument at all. It’s probably the most civil discourse of any of the current threads. The only Bible the church publishes is the KJV, but fundamentally there is nothing wrong with consulting other translations, since we “believe the Bible to be the word of God as long as it is translated correctly.” |
So if our own ideas inform our translation, then who do you suppose should do the translation of Song of Solomon? Depending on who tranlates that book, it could get really interesting. |
DKL, I have other translations of the Bible in the house. I also can get around in the Hebrew Bible, which is a blessing. I wish I had studied koine Greek by now. That’s still something I want to do. I’d like to see the Church develop a system of some sort for teaching it’s members Old Testament Hebrew and New Testament Greek. I think it would be worthwhile - especially since we encourage our members to make a lifelong study of the scriptures. With the seminary and university system being what it is - and all the encouragement we give to get more education - it’s probably not all that irrational to encourage people to go that extra step. So I guess what I’m saying is the whole “get the best translation” business is not going far enough. |
By the way, I like the story of Joseph and Asenath as well. It’s great reading and quite inspirational. I have no idea what basis (beyond marginal) it has in reality. |
I suppose I should mention BYU’s New Testament translation project, led by John Hall. I am sure that all an sundry will disagree, but I don’t think this is a good idea. First, doing something like this entirely in house is a bad idea. One of the most popular critiques of the NET Bible is that it was done in house by the Dallas Theological Seminary. The problem with doing this is that you tend to get inbred ideas and biases by having a tight knit group of people working on this. By contrast the NRSV was produced by Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, and at least one Jew working in council. The chance of getting weird translations or biases through a group like that is pretty slim (though still possible). Second, I am worried that people get chosen for projects like that because they are “Good Mormons” and not because they are well qualified. I am sure that someone will want to jump in and testify as to how everyone on the team is top notch, well-qualified, etc. The problem is that Mormons, especially on matters religious, tend to publish in the Mormon publishing ghetto, not in peer reviewed outlets. While peer review is no guarantee of quality, it does raise the likelihood of quality. Because Mormons don’t do this it is harder to know what well qualified means. Third, I just hope this doesn’t become the de facto work for Mormons to consult on all things New Testament. People tend to make the association of “Made By Mormons” = “Inspired” = “I should read that” = “Everything else is crap.” |
When I say argument, I don’t mean a nasty fight… I just mean a conversation about which version of the Bible “the Church” should use. I’m not Mormon, but I do believe in using the KJV. I believe it is the inerrant word of God… I found this because of my King James Version Google alert. |
Thanks for stopping by, Lauren. |
Thanks DKL - this is great, I really appreciate it. I agree entirely that there are other versions of the Bible that are more clear. |
Wasn’t BYU NT Translation project much more about doing an LDS styled Anchor Bible commentary? Each volume in the Anchor Bible Commentary series had its own translation emphasizing the issues the author sees in the text. My understanding is that the LDS commentary project isn’t doing too well though. If it got off the ground and was done in a very academic style while bringing up LDS theology it would be very valuable. I’m just dubious about it happening. |
Lauren, The KJV is the version that is used by the body of the church. The KJV is taught in Sunday school and seminary. When the central authorities of the church cite to biblical verse, they cite the KJV. I’m not certain of the history, but I believe this has been the case since the establishment of the church. There is, however, no prohibition against studying other legitimate translations or referencing them in church lessons. There is no significant discussion within the church about changing the “official” version, nor is there any clamor from the body of the chruch for a change. We here in the bloggernacle just like to show how studious we are in talking about all the various versions of the Bible we have read. We also like to flatter ourselves into thinking that what we post here will have an impact beyond our periodic rants. That said, I also find this discussion interesting. I barely have enough time to study the standard scriptures, let alone embark on delving into all the various iterations. Maybe some day I will have more time, then I will be as enlightened as DKL. For now, I’ll probably buy an NRSV, since I generally respect DKL’s literary opinion, and give it a read along with my KJV. |
Thanks Lauren, |
PHolland, Careful reading of both the KJV and the BoM will show that they are not that similar. The BoM has a subset of KJV vocabulary but that is about it. The language is substantially simpler. The KJV is a mess and makes the bible inaccessible. I bought a NSRV last year for New Testament study. My comprehension was immeasurably enhanced. I case you’re thinking, “Well he’s just stupid and doesn’t have the vocabulary to comprehend the KJV,” I have a few responses. First, you’d be making my point for me. One should not need to have an amazing vocabulary to have access to the gospel. Second, if it is so clear, why aren’t conference talks given in KJV English? Third, do you think that Christ preached in some antiquated vernacular? Do you think the people that heard him had to scratch their heads and wonder at his choice of words? Assuming that he preached in modern (for his time) language then doesn’t it make sense to read his words in language that is currently in active use? Finally, I have a fairly large vocabulary and reasonably reading comprehension skills. Not to toot my own horn, but I’ve gotten perfect scores on the English sections of standardized tests. If I am missing out when reading the KJV then 99% of the population is as well. |
Matt W, the KJV uses the word Telestial exactly as many times as it uses chocolate. The solution to the copyright issue is twofold: (a) introduce the alternate translation as an additional choice, so that the KJV is still available, and (b) make the alternative translation available at a slightly high cost to pass on the cost of the copyright. The church doesn’t make a heck of a lot of money off of it’s scriptures. The deluxe leather-bound study scriptures are the cheapest high-quality scriptures I’ve ever seen — by a mile! A small additional charge to cover licensing would be altogether fair, and it would speed adoption as owning the alternative translation became a status symbol. We’ll never move to the JST. First of all, it would further distances us from the rest of christianity, both in their perceptions and in reality. Second, adopting the JST would be a major doctrinal shift. The JST was never complete, and Joseph Smith was continually revising it to match his evolving theology. Before 1838, he was systematically clarifying all biblical references that could imply plurality of Gods so that they were unambiguously singular. After 1838, he began systematically reversing the earlier revisions. This is what is meant when the church euphemistically indicates that he never finished it. It is in an incomplete state that is theologically inconsistent and represents at best a cross-section of Joseph Smith’s theological development. Furthermore, let’s keep in mind also that the JST is not doctrine. It is not scripture. It is not revealed truth. It is a study guide. The considered opinion of a man who’s personal judgements about the scriptures we have reason to trust. That’s the official position of the church, that’s what the scholarship supports, and we mustn’t pretend anything more. Jeff Bennion, I don’t think that a BYU translation is a good idea. Such a translation would quickly become known as a non-Christian bible. The advantage of using a Bible with a strong brand recognition (like the RSV or NRSV or KJV) is that there is no risk of it becoming known as “the Mormon version of the Bible.” If ever a bible that we used become known as that, it would make it much harder to communicate our beliefs to the rest of the world. And, frankly, I just don’t have much confidence in BYU as a center of scholarship. The KJV is not a translation of the Vulgate. It is a translation of texts of the original language (the Hebrew Bible plus what became known as Textus Receptus, a modified version of the later editions of Erasmus’s greek New Testament), though it departs from these where needed to meet the expectations created by previous versions of the Bible, primary among which was the Vulgate, but also earlier English translations. It must be understood that translating the Bible into English was itself a very controversial undertaking, and that a primary (unspoken) goal of the translators was to ensure that the content of the translation itself was as uncontroversial as possible. mmiles, I think studying Jacobean English is a terrific idea! Especially given how easy it is to understand good Jacobean English. And there’s a wealth of really great English literature from that period, including John Ford, John Fletcher, and the most popular plays of Ben Johnson. If you want to read good Jacobean English, that’s your ticket. Plus, if you’re familiar with Shakespeare (a thorough-going Elizabethan, even if his last few plays extended into the reign of James I), you’ll quickly see many of the differences of the Jacobean era. Steven B, one of the advantages of the RSV that I neglected to mention is this: it preserves the thee/thou/thy/thine usage in for 2nd person pronouns tat refer to deity. PHolland, I agree that reading, studying, and pondering is key. The Church Handbook of Instructions instructs bishops to recommend prayer over alternative translations. But there’s a limit to how much pondering can mitigate language that fails to communicate. If there were not, I could choose to pick up a Swahili version of the bible to pray and ponder over. I’ve addressed the JST issue in my response to Matt W, above. Lauren, the problem is that we Mormons don’t discuss which version of the Bible to use very often. Instead, the KJV is generally taken to be the definitive Bible, rather than one that was chosen for practical reasons (reasons that were very good at the time). In my household as a child, I was raised to view other versions of the Bible with distrust. I know many Mormons today who view other versions of the Bible with distrust. Some people actually do prefer the KJV, and I respect that. My opinion is that we benefit from having more openness to different translations. Thanks for participating. I’m glad you found us. Dan Ellsworth, I think there are some great books in the Apocrypha. My favorite is Tobit. I told a story from Tobit to illustrate a doctrinal point at my missionary farewell. Word got back to me a few years later that I’d quoted the Koran. That’s how Mormons are. danithew, I think that’s an outstanding idea. I think that church-sponsored Greek or Hebrew study groups would be tremendous. David Clark, I agree with you on every count. A Mormon version of the Bible would quickly be ghettoized, and I don’t believe BYU is up to the task. |
Jesus didn’t speak to his followers in some strange language. He spoke in their common language so they could understand the clearest. |
To those who have complained about the modern versification (I believe it was Orson Pratt, not Orson Hyde, who did that) and unreadability of the Book of Mormon, I should also mention Grant Hardy’s Reader’s Edition of the Book of Mormon. It has little unobtrusive verse markers and has formatted the text the way more modern translations do. I’ve been reading it and enjoy it. I read the 1st edition Book of Mormon, but there are legibility issues with it, so I think Hardy’s edition is better if you’re just interested in readbility. And DKL, I misspoke when I referred to Hall’s work at BYU as a translation project. It’s a Commentary which will discuss the various ways to render the text and also the various variants. Someone asked him if they would come out with their own New Testament and he categorically ruled it out. I doubt the Church will undertake it. I hung around after his talk and someone asked him if he thought there was a better translation, and he said we should do what Joseph Smith was doing, and said we all should do, which is to learn to read it in the original languages. He seemed to think this was within the grasp of most Church members. So there’s something I guess I should put on my list! Another study help I like is Strong’s Lexicon. It’s great to consult on a computer version because you click around and see all the places a particular Greek or Hebrew word is used in the Bible and how it is rendered in the KJV (or other) translations. |
Jota G: We here in the bloggernacle just like to show how studious we are in talking about all the various versions of the Bible we have read. We also like to flatter ourselves into thinking that what we post here will have an impact beyond our periodic rants. My, my. |
DKL, Can you explain the difference between the Catholic version of the NRSV and the Standard. Why does the Catholic have the Maccabees and other titles like Judith and Tobit? |
Dan, there’s a very good entry on the apocrypha in the LDS Bible Dictionary. Here’s what I have to add: There are Old Testament books that the orthodox christian churches canonized, even though the Jews never recognized them as scriptures. These are the books that are being referred to when people use the term apocrypha (though people do use the term apocrypha in different senses). When Protestantism became more established and institutionalized in Europe, the basis for every decision ever made by orthodox Christian churches (principally, the Catholic Church) came under question. Until the late 17th century, all complete Bible translations into English century contained the apocryphal books of the Catholic Church — including the KJV, which was originally published with a full compliment of the Catholic apocryphal books. Protestant churches had a strong incentive to differentiate themselves from orthodox churches, and questioning the validity of decisions of canonicity was a primary method of differentiation. By 1599, versions of the Geneva Bible began to appear without the apocrypha. In 1666, the apocrypha was dropped from the official printings of the KJV. By the 18th century, it had become a scriptural sideshow outside of Catholicism. Orthodox churches consider the books labeled apocrypha by protestants to be on an equal footing with the books whose canonicity is not disputed by protestants. So that they don’t conceive of two separate canons, one of which is more reliable than the other. As such, in a Catholic bible, the apocryphal books are interspersed with the other books of the Old Testament, and not placed in their own section as they are in protestant Bibles. Does that answer your question? |
DKL, I know. Truth hurts. I did throw you a bone: “For now, I’ll probably buy an NRSV, since I generally respect DKL’s literary opinion, and give it a read along with my KJV.” |
Take it with a grain of salt. I’m on my way to a multi-stake boy scout encampment. That my add color to my bitter commentary. |
DKL, Thanks for that answer. Would you recommend that particular version to someone like me who has not delved into a non-KJV Bible? |
Just a note - in regards to the New Testament, I really like the J.B. Phillips translation. It reads very well, in a plain respectful style that can be quite moving all the same. Here’s an example of how Matthew 1:18-21 reads:
Here’s the translation of 1 Corinthians 15:29 (which we might happen to care about):
I should add that it was Don Norton, an English professor at BYU, who suggested (to a class) that we give this translation a try. I really liked/respected him as a professor and wasn’t disappointed with his suggestion either. |
A random John When I lived in Saudi Arabia a friend of the family told us of an Arab who read the Book of Mormon in Arabic. He loved the BoM in Arabic and commented that the language of the BoM was beautiful. he loved it so much that he got his other Arab friends to read the Book of Mormon. These guys were Muslims. What is interesting to me is that the Isaiah chapters of the Book of Mormon is not the same word for word as the Bible translation (Isaiah 48 to 1 Nephi 20)and is probably clearer in meaning. My simple comment had more to do with the difference in the English used in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon to the way we speak American English. I realize such simplification of the comparison makes for huge errors. The idea is that the language is very different from what is spoken today. I leave the discussion or debate of translation to those who have a more scholarly opinion on the difficulty of reading scripture translated by those who may not have been the best translators, who made mistakes, and who may have also been deviant, and who may not have had a Urim and Thummim to help them. They also had to translate from other translations which, to me, only creates a larger problem. Joseph Smith used the Urim and Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon in a short period of time. One translator carefully monitored by God. Would that we had such a person to translate the Bible years before? A perfect score in English or a lack of English skills as my grandmother had doesn’t make a difference in the long run. Either way both of you manage to know the doctrines taught in the Bible. Perhaps that contrast is enough to show us that reading the scriptures is what is more important despite the frustration with the language, and by reading the scripture we will glean from them what we need to know to return to God. DKL My point is that we have other scriptures and a modern day prophet and apostles to teach us what we should glean from the scriptures we read in the Bible. I suppose that if we had all of the original documents written by those who kept the records as instructed by the Lord, the Lord would have the Bible retranslated. As it is, the only part he wanted corrected, which is canonized, is Matthew 24. The Lord didn’t seem concerned by anything else. The Bible is important and our LDS scriptures are rooted in the Bible. I don’t think, though, that we hold up any scripture the same way as some believers might hold them up—as a symbol of their faith and belief. Nevertheless, the Bible is the common scripture of all Christians and I think this is why the Church continues to use the older English translation, the King James Version. Much of the doctrines we teach are found there. It seems that despite it’s difficult reading we were able to get from it the important teachings necessary for eternal life. If so, then reading the KJV must not have been as difficult to understand, just cumbersome reading. |
PHolland, You contradict yourself: A perfect score in English or a lack of English skills as my grandmother had doesn’t make a difference in the long run. and then to DKL: I wouldn’t pick up a Bible written in Swahili and tempt God by praying to him to help me understand the scriptures in a language I don’t know. Yet reading the KJV is reading the Bible in a language that is not your primary language. I would guess that I read KJV English only slightly better than I read my Portuguese Book of Mormon. Reading the KJV is the rough equivalent of reading the Bible in a second language. Why insist on holding fast to an artificial barrier to comprehension? Nobody is suggesting burning or banning the KJV, just having people study a Bible written in their own language. |
DKL, I agree with you on the KJV, especially the New Testament. I find Romans completely unintelligible in the KJV, and out of desperation I picked up the NIV and then said to myself, “oh, NOW I know what Paul was saying and why Romans is so important.” However, I think you may want to consider that it is important for Latter-day Saints to read the KJV because some of the language from the KJV is in temple ceremonies and “rings true” to people during temple ceremonies because it reminds them of things they have read in the standard works. Having said that, I encourage my progeny to read the KJV and also my favorite Bible in the world, the Zondervan Archeological Study Bible (NIV version). I think you can really begin understanding the Bible better through two versions, not just the KJV. |
DKL, You said this earlier The Church Handbook of Instructions instructs bishops to recommend prayer over alternative translations. Did you read this in the current handbook of instructions? I can only get my hands on the 1998 version, and it just says the KJV is the official Bible in English, nothing about prayer. The reason I ask is because as I said earlier that I was trying to get something more readable in the hands of my students in seminary. If that’s the position in the most current CHI, then the position is even more severe than the 1998 version and I should just throw in the towel on this one. |
David, I’m referring to the old CHI that you can find on the web. I’m pleased to hear that the new one doesn’t take such a hard line. |
Devyn S. and a random John, I’m pleased that we agree. I’ve actually been overwhelmed by how receptive commenters have been to the notion of using an different translation from the KJV. I seriously thought that this post would create another firestorm. Clark, I’m skeptical as well. I find the Catholic and Jewish scholarship to be the most consistently high quality. It’s not that Mormon scholars aren’t capable of doing very good scholarship — Robert Matthews, for example, has written some really terrific stuff. The problem is that LDS scriptural scholarship is always quite limited in scope and always intermingled with with faith-promoting, anti-scholarship. Jota G, no offense taken. Apparently, I seem much more pedantic and ambitious when I blog than I do in real life. But I also caught your nice words as well. Jeff Bennion, you’re right that the facsimile versions of the Book of Mormon aren’t up to modern print standards. Printers back then certainly were capable of turning out high quality print. Perhaps the original Book of Mormon was not up to snuff because it was printed in a small-town newspaper office. Thanks for recommending Grant Hardy’s version of the Book of Mormon. I’ll pick up a copy. Dan, the New Revised Standard Version is top-notch. You can buy as just a bible text, but it’s much better to buy it in a study bible format. If you can find The New Interpreters Bible, it has really outstanding chapter introductions and commentary. The New Oxford Annotated Bible is also very good. Both of these study Bibles come in versions using the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible. PHolland, there were no actual original documents for the Bible. These are oral traditions that were transcribed some time after the creators past away. Chances are that they were transcribed differently by different people at different times, and unified and normalized at some later time in order to resolve differences. My guess is that apostles would wince at the notion that they teach us what to glean from the scriptures. I view them as wanting us to search out truth on our own as much as we can. Geoff B, I agree with you that there is a prevailing superstition about the nature of the KJV. My guess is that, at this point, the superstitions are more a result of the KJV’s privileged status than vice versa. And you’re definitely right that reading multiple good translations is better than reading any one translations. I’d submit, however, that you’ll get more out of reading both the NIV and the NRSV than either one. Moreover, you’d get more out of reading both of these than reading either with the KJV, which is a uniquely weak offering as a Bible. |
DKL, great post (sorry I’m getting here late), and amen to everything said. I agree with you that the (N)RSV is probably the best, but as far as the Hebrew Bible is concerned, there are some maddening interpretive moves. I would say I like the JPS better, but it has a different set of maddening interpretive moves (and, of course, there’s no NT). Some people like Everett Fox’s translations, but these are also problematic. And the NIV is a disaster (but not compared to the KJV). So I agree that the best option we have is the (N)RSV. And great point about the NT’s use of the Septuagint where the KJV uses the MT. I second the recommendation of Grant Hardy’s Reader’s Edition of the Book of Mormon. I don’t agree with much of his formatting and what he counts as poetry, but it’s much, much more engaging than the current formatting. He includes footnotes that are actually of literary importance. I had hoped that the Doubleday version of the Book of Mormon would have been formatted according to modern convention, but no such luck. My spouse read the Reader’s Edition also and was amazed at the difference it makes to clap eyes on a new format, and one that is structured in a way that makes sense. Finally, (and sorry so long) I’d like to disagree (mostly, but not totally, to play devil’s advocate) with the idea that we should teach Hebrew and Greek as a Church. I think that there’s too much of an assumption that with a semester or a year of Hebrew one is authorized to read, make sense of, and comment intelligently on the Hebrew Bible. I think it takes much more than that. And Greek is the same (only I think Greek is understood generally to be much more complicated than Hebrew). I think we’d be overrun with members armed with enough knowledge to be very dangerous in their exegesis. |
jupiterschild, thanks for checking in. I agree with you about the JPS Tanach. The 1985 JPS is my favorite Old Testament. If we could use that for the Old Testament and the (N)RSV for the New Testament, that would be ideal (even if it were a bit hard to explain). I’m not a huge fan of Fox’s translations, myself. My favorite Torah is Friedman’s. |
Alter has some great translations, I assume his Torah is pretty good. I have read his version of 1 & 2 Samuel which he titles “The David Story.” If you are looking for a close literary reading, Alter is hard to beat. I spent a week longer than I should have on 1 & 2 Samuel in seminary, mainly because Alter made the books so engaging. His commentary was pretty good too. I am sure on my recommendation CES is going to rush out copies of “The David Story” for the next time seminary goes through the OT. Hah! |
DKL, |
David Clark, I like Alter. I have both his Torah and his 1 & 2 Samuel translations, and they’re quite a good read. That said, I’m a bit dubious of Alter’s effort to understand the Biblical narrative as something that is carefully designed to tell a specific story. The stories in the Old Testament feel to me as though they’ve been conjoined rather haphazardly. Alter’s notion of a text that painstakingly combines different elements at different places in the narrative in order to create the optimal impact strikes me as anachronistic. It’s the sort of thing that someone would do nowadays, because modern technology has developed to a point in the past couple decades where it is quite easy to do. Not that I don’t find his approach illuminating at times. I just think that he takes it a bit too seriously. Though, it does dovetail nicely with the LDS approach to the scriptures as a unified narrative. cj douglass, I wasn’t familiar with that version of the bible at all. I own and have read small parts of The Living Bible, which I never really took seriously since it’s just a paraphrase of the American Standard Version. I’d stopped collecting Bibles by the time the New Living Translation was published in 1996, and once I owned 35+ translations of the Bible, those ended up being pretty much the only ones that I read. Well, there’s the exception of the ESV, which caught my attention because it was conceived of as an alternative to the NRSV. And there’s the exception of the Alter translations of the Torah and 1 & 2 Samuel, which I picked up on the recommendation of my ward’s gospel doctrine teacher. And there’s the exception of the Friedman translation, which a Jewish friend gave me as a gift. At any rate, I’m going to go out and buy a copy of the New Living Translation on Monday to check it out and correct this lacuna in my biblical knowledge. Thanks for bringing this transaltion to my attention. |
DKL, I agree that Alter does take it too far at times. He’s also a little too full of himself and too dismissive of the efforts of others. He teaches at Berkeley, what else could one expect? Anyway, I think his approach does offer two things: 1) As you said he does fit in nicely with the LDS approach to scripture. If a naive LDS person wanted to know more about Biblical criticism I would offer up Alter as a nice way of entering that world and 2) He does offer a counterbalance to the prevailing scholarly tendency to break everything down into smaller and smaller units. I agree he sees too much unity, but at some level it does make sense to analyze the larger story units, which is where Alter excels. |
I love the idea of studying the bible in the original languages as well as the German translation (isn’t that the one Joseph Smith said was his favorite?). My New Testament Gospels teacher at BYU (Gaye Strathearn) turned me on to trying to do the original languages. I read my Russian Synodal translation bible better than I do my KJV. Regarding the Russian translation, I just found out from WIKI: “The translation of the Old Testament is based on the Jewish Masoretic Text while that of the New Testament is based on the Greek printed editions of that time. This decision was grounded on Filaret’s 1834 note “On the need of the Russian Church for a translation of the whole Bible from the original texts to the modern Russian language”. The permission to use the Masoretic Text as preserved by the Jews (rather than relying on the Septuagint and/or the Church Slavonic translations as preserved by the Christians) was granted to Filaret by the Synod in 1862.” Pretty cool. |
For devotional reading, my favorite translation is the New Jerusalem Bible, especially for the New Testament. If find that it has all the majesty of the KJV and is well-formatted. Since Danithew shared Matthew 1:18-21 from the Phillips translation, I’ll do the same with the NJB:
It has footnotes to indicate that the “divorce her informally” is a paraphrase for what could be translated literally as “to put her away from him privately.” Footnotes also describe what a betrothal was (it’s not quite the same as an engagement as we use the term today, and who knows what the KJV’s “espoused” means) and what the meaning of the word “Jesus” is. And here’s 1 Corinthians 15:29:
I like many of the modern translations; all have advantages and disadvantages. The only popular one I dislike is the NIV — it’s written at about a sixth-grade level, has evident theological biases and basically comes across to me as being dumbed down. The updated version, the TNIV, is significantly improved, however. The changes from the NIV involve more than making it gender neutral. For study purposes, I like the NET Bible quite a bit. More accurately, I like its footnotes. There may be some biases in the translation (as in all translations), but at least in the NET translation the translators defend why they chose the words they did. |
I just found out that the New Jerusalem Bible (as I noted also my favorite) is available online. |
I didn’t realize there were followup comments to the second comment I made… I apologize. Devyn S. Yes, my church does use the KJV. We don’t believe that any other version is the inerrant word of God. Versions, such as the NIV, RSV, etc. have very obvious errors. I am well aware that people believe there are “errors” in the KJV, but they can all be refuted. The errors come from the reader, not the text. |
Lauren, I took a look at your blog. Lots of cute pictures and it’s obvious you have some wonderful values. I’m not sure why you would think that errors come from a reader (in the KJV) and not in the text. Personally, I love the KJV. But I know it has translation errors. God allows everyone to make mistakes and he doesn’t suddenly arrest that problem in regards to the Bible (or any other book for that matter, scriptural or otherwise). If humans are involved in any kind of effort, including recording or translating scripture, there will be mistakes. That’s just the way it is. |
Danithew, Psalm 138:2 says, “…for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.” I say that the errors come from the reader because people read the Bible with a “critical eye,” so to speak. They think that they are right, regardless of what the Bible says, and are willing to go to great lengths to make the Bible “fit” what they think. Whenever I have the opportunity to speak to people who believe these things, I always ask, “Do you believe the Bible is true?” You know what they say? “Some of it.” To which I reply, “How do you know which parts?” They never come right out and say it, but the general gist goes something like this: “I don’t believe that God would do something like that, so I just believe that in the translating of the Bible, something was lost.” I think it’s interesting that there really is no strict criteria to judge whether a portion of the Bible is true or not… they could at least say it wasn’t in the “original” Hebrew or Greek, or they could say, those words are in italics so they really should be excluded (WHICH I DON’T BELIEVE). At least they would be giving some answer other than their feelings. Anyways… I believe that we have such an awesome, capable God, that he is able to preserve his word. It doesn’t matter how many times the Bible has been translated, don’t you think God has the ability to keep it perfect? I certainly believe that God has that much power. The “Bible” (I realize that it wasn’t called the Bible until it was compiled into one book, so I’m using this term pretty loosely here) was written by men who were inspired by God (2 Peter 1:21). Why could the Bible not be translated perfectly by men? |
What I’m curious about is why the King James Bible itself is the inerrant word of God. This strikes me as a very curious view. What’s so special about King James? Why not Jerome’s translation into Latin? Jerome was certainly much holier than King James or his translators. And what of people who don’t read English? Did God hang them out to dry? Or is there a perfect Bible in every language? And what of those who lived before the publication of the King James Bible? Given that the text of The Illiad is better preserved than the so-called text of the New Testament, does this mean that Zeus does a better job of preserving his word than Jesus? Not only that, but using quotes from the Bible to prop up the authority of the Bible is circular reasoning. Most scriptures in most religions assure their readers of how perfect they are. There’s nothing special about the Bible in this regard. When people ask me what parts of the Bible I believe, I tell them that I believe the parts that suit my prejudice. This sounds outrageous, but it’s actually what everybody does. Some people simply ignore passages that make us uncomfortable. Others utilize devices and conventions to contrive a some explanation to make patently ridiculous assertions less unpalatable. For example, most people are comfortable saying that if God appeared to you and told you to kill your kid, you should seek professional help instead of trying to kill your kid. Yet Abraham’s psychotic trip up the mountain is hailed in 3 religions as an act of great faith! Here’s a quote by Bertrand Russell that I’ve often referred to in similar contexts:
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DKL, At least you’re honest when you tell people which portions of the Bible you believe. I can appreciate that. I think there are far more important issues to “square away” before focusing on the Bible version issue. For instance, when I’m talking to people, I want to make sure they have trusted Jesus Christ as their Savior before I try to show them which Bible I believe. I would rather someone die and spend eternity in heaven because they have trusted Jesus’ finished work on the cross than have them miss heaven but use the “right” Bible. |
I just bought the NRSV Bible and found it to be far more illuminating than the KJV. But that’s just me. |
Lauren quoted the following verses:
Lauren, I can see that you’re interpreting these verses to say that the Biblical text will be protected from mis-translation. I just want to say to you that it’s very possible to read these verses as talking about the virtue/power of the word of God without actually saying anything about whether God would allow his words to be mis-translated, corrupted, etc. It’s a very possible reading of these verses. One thing I’m wondering as well is how you come to the conclusion that the KJV is inerrant - as none of these verses (or any others, that I know of) identify the KJV as God’s choice. (I am not being sarcastic by the way - or merely trying to be argumentative. I just feel like these are questions that need to be asked.) I also wonder if you are of the opinion that there are ‘errant’ versions or translations of the Bible or are all Bible translations inerrant? If in your view there _are_ both errant and inerrant versions of the Bible, how would a person know the difference? I’d also have to come back around again to asking why the KJV is the correct/inerrant version. I say all of this as a true fan of the KJV. It’s the Bible translation I’ve read most of my life and overall I’m fine with it. But I don’t think of it (or of any scripture, for that matter) as inerrant. Personally, I think the idea of inerrancy is very problematic - both logically and even doctrinally. |
Dan, I’m glad to hear that you went out and purchased a good translation and that you like it. Wouldn’t it be great if you could get a translation that good in an LDS study bible? The church wouldn’t have to abandon the KJV, it would just have to offer an additional version, and all the hard-core KJV types could still keep theirs. |
DKL, Well, what’s the copyright on the “study” parts of the LDS bible? Could someone take the time to create a NRSV of the Bible with all the cross references found in the current LDS KJV Bible and not get sued? I don’t think it would be a very profitable venture if it is not approved by church leaders, though. |
Lauren, Beautifully spoken (#73). I agree with you to a great degree. I think much of the error can come from the reader. The most important thing with reading the scriptures is the perspective. Reading from the position that Jesus is your savior allows unquestionably for more insight into what the dialogue refers to as well as allows the spirit to work in the interpretation. The Word of God is inner-ant, indeed, but I think the Word of God is not found in words written by man, lest man then be considered God. For me, the spirit is the key to scripture. And DKL, |
Nasamomdele, I thought Mormon’s believed the following: “As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be.” (Snow, Lorenzo) So… why wouldn’t Mormons believe that man could produce something inerrant. L |
Ah, though man may be, he hardly is. |
Not exactly sure what you mean above. |
nasamomdele, I take the Russell quote to be inerrant truth. Lauren, I’m not exactly sure what nasmomdele means either. But here’s my answer to your question: We Mormons believe something like the Lorenzo Snow couplet, but it’s among the more obscure doctrines of our church — as opposed to the more central ones like love God, love your neighbor, and proclaim the gospel. But basically, we take the couplet to be a restatement of Christ’s New Testament promise that we can inherit all that God has. We take that promise literally. Also more central than the belief expressed by that couplet is the core belief that mortal man is the enemy of God, because, as Paul said, no man is without sin. But we have hope in Christ’s atonement, which is infinite and can cleanse us of our sins. Mormons look at sins as unfortunate mistakes that arise as part of learning (without Christ’s atonement, they’d be unfortunate mistakes that doom us). By God’s grace and mercy, He teaches us and we can learn and progress without being condemned for the imperfections that make it necessary for us to learn in the first place. This kind of learning takes an awful long time, which brings us to the Mormon belief in eternal progression. In a nutshell, eternal progression means that if the we are to realize Christ’s promise that we can inherit everything that God has, it won’t happen during our sojourn on this earth as mortals. So there is no infallible man (well, Christ was, but he was God and man and all that). |
Lauren, The usual defense for the Lorenzo Snow couplet is John 5:19, which reads:
If taken literally, Jesus does nothing but what he sees his Father doing. That includes everything. The belief then is that the Father acted as a Savior on another world in another time. My own personal view? I don’t think enough has been revealed to state affirmatively anything of this sort, and I’ll wait patiently until more is revealed. |
I forgot that Mormon’s believe in “continuous revelation.” I believe that God gave us the Bible, and that’s it. He doesn’t randomly speak to men. I am not (nor have I ever been) Mormon (but I’ve actually been into one of the annual Mormon conferences in SLC. VERY interesting.). So, I don’t believe that man is like God or God is like man. Jesus Christ (John 10:30 “I and my Father are one”) was God manifest in the flesh. He put on flesh so that he could die for us. SIDE QUESTION: What do Mormon’s believe the gospel is? |
Lauren, the core of the gospel is Jesus’s atonement and resurrection. What’s interesting is that Dan and I gave such different answers to you question about the couplet. I tried to explain why we believe that mortals can become like God. Danithew tried to explain why we believe that God once was like mortals. And though both of us appealed to the Bible to explain the couplet, you responded by saying that you don’t believe in continuing revelation. Regarding, “I don’t believe that man is like God or God is like man.” Surely, you overstate your opinion here. The Bible tells us that God created us in his image:
(Genesis 1:26-27, NRSV) |
Lauren, Assuming I understand what you are asking, the best (and most official) definition of what Mormons consider the gospel to be is found in the Book of Mormon 3 Nephi 27:13-21. The author here (Mormon) is recording the words of Jesus Christ when he visited his disciples on the American continent, so the person speaking is Jesus. That should be enough context to understand what is going on in that passage. |
Lauren,
Being a literal believer in the Bible, can you please show me where it states that “God gave us the Bible?” Huh, and I appealed to the Bible to answer the question, not to “modern revelation.” |
To be more clear: We do believe that as God is, man may become- becoming perfected is the purpose of the resurrection and redemption- the purpose of the grace of God. It follows that becoming perfected and spotless is to become as God is. That’s as far as I take that doctrine. I don’t think man can produce something inerrant, because man is so imperfect now: subject to biases, pride, and temptations. I would say that even the words we use are imperfect to describe the Gospel. That is the reason I agree with you on your point that errors in the KJV are often errors in reading. I would add to that- errors in putting ink to paper- in writing. The word of God is inerrant, but the means He has of putting the word in our hands are far from perfect, despite how much integrity and purity they possess. Mistakes are inevitable because on Earth, we cannot be perfect. |
The reason I said something about “continuing revelation” is because Dan said something about “more being revealed.” I don’t believe there is anything else left to be revealed (in the sense that you do) |
Great post! I’ve been studying different translations quite a bit. For the Old Testament, I have come to favor the NJPS (New edition by Jewish Publication Society) because it is scholarly, from Hebrew sources, and relatively uninfluenced by fundamentalist motives (particularly by typical Christian theological motives). For the New Testament I am undecided, but I have used a few and find the variety useful. Actually, and I hate to say this, but the New World Translation (the Jehovah’s Witnesses version) is fairly good in MANY respects, while in other ways it shows severe bias. But if you know where the bias is, it is easy to see through. But after much study, I fear the reason the Church sticks to the KJV is two-fold. One reason being good, the other questionable. First, the consideration of the JST. Adapting the JST footnotes to make sense in a non-KJV Bible would be an interpretive task, requiring prophetic intervention — but haven’t we all been waiting for a Prophet to come along and finish the “Inspired version of the Bible” anyway? I think this is a good reason, though, as I’d hate to see Joseph’s edits lost or corrupted through arbitrary application within a different text. The second and more significant reason, and the questionable one, is that by switching to a different version which is strong enough to endure, in other words, an accepted scholarly translation in modern English, a house of cards would begin to fall which would eventually destroy a few pet doctrines of the Church. The comparison between the two versions, and their chapter headings, footnotes, etc., would become a whirlwind of curiosity and criticism in the new edition, adding to the doctrinal pitfalls already extant in the current KJV now printed by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. (the Church’s holding company) Basically, it would give us a ton of new material to argue about. And I don’t think the general authorities of the Church would see that as a good thing. |