What about asking parents? Isn’t the church’s focus right now on the family? Why don’t they recommend that these girls go ask their parents what kind of outfit they should be wearing? It seems to me that that is what parents are there for. No need, necessarily, to go to Father in Heaven. He assigned two people to watch over and care for each of these children, the mother and the father.

ESO – I am amazed sometimes at the stupid things that are done in meetings like this. That is so offensive and humiliating that they would take time to focus on this instead of doctrinal teachings. I suspect you are correct that the boys would get a lesson on some doctrine or other…

If the situation took place in real life, I wonder what the YW leader would have done, had the girls claimed to receive an answer to their prayers, that they should wear string bikinis? LOL!

Dan–good point about parents.

Michelle–I agree, that was the point. I just wish that they had challenged the girls to take an issue of concern (like tithing, or TSM being a true prophet, or “is the BoM true?”) and study and pray about it. Then the girls would have had the same revelation experience, but about an important issue, instead of one that is so trivial.

Nick–It had not occurred to me that this was a manufactured segment–it was presented as a true experience in a real unit.

Soggy Cheerios and Devyn–I hear you

Jota–maybe so, but frankly treating people with respect is a whole flight of stairs up from “Dear Heavenly Father: can’t I wear a bikini?”

I had a completely different reaction!

First of all I was very, very impressed by the meeting overall. I thought all the talks were very doctrinal and could as easily have been given in general sessions of conference.

I also thought the video presentation was wonderful. To begin with I think the question of modesty is a very persistent question young women struggle with, and therefore not at all out of place in a meeting especially for them. I was ecstatic that the presentation did not give us “the answer” about what kind of bathing suit would be modest, but focused on the process the young women went through to understand the principle of modesty and how that would manifest itself in their choice of a bathing suit. The example to leaders of not spouting off their own favorite bathing suit standard, but instead encouraging the young women to gain a testimony of a principle and pray about applying that in their life, was fanstastic.

I see your point, but at the same time I am considering the option that a) In the “For Strength of Youth” it tells them what they should be wearing. B) any revelation is better than no revelation and C) they are young women who don’t have the slightest idea..actually they do have some idea as how to pray, search and study out things, but what a great issue this is. Modesty. The prophets already have told them what is modest and what is not. Sometimes it is about the conviction that they receive on the issue that is important.

I know that there are plenty of us on this sight that have disagreed with a prophet or two and have had to find our own revelation on certain issues. Isn’t that what the gospel is about?

This issue is fabulous for them to search out. That is exactly what I would do as a parent with my child. I would encourage them to find the answer on their own. What a great way to learn.

Fair enough bbell, Gina, and Tim J–I just wish they had been involved in wrestling with an IMPORTANT question.

Sunshine–I submit that, according to our ideals of modesty, NO bathing suit is modest. Whether or not someone can see your belly button, or simply see the clear outline of it underneath your one-piece is moot. Bathing suits are inherently revealing. (And generally frivolous).

ESO I agree completely! I don’t like swimming suits, I, in fact, wear board shorts and a tankini top that does not come above my hips. They are too revealing to me, but my point was the modesty issue and actually figuring out how they feel about the guidelines given to them. What an awesome subject to search out.

I think modesty is an important topic for the youth, but there is already a guideline in the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet. It is better to gain your own testimony of it than to just be told what to do, but I think ESO’s questions are very valid (esp 3 and 7). Still, there’s something unsettling about the boys getting the porn/masturbation talks and the girls getting the modesty talks.

Mathew, girls need the same talk the boys do. It isn’t one sex that has the tendencies to look at porn. Okay, now this is going to be one of those, I heard from the grape vine things, but it seems that there are more and more women connected to lesbian porn, like 3 out of 4 women look at it. So, i think it needs to be addressed on both sides.

When I had my interview with the stake president before going to get my endowments, he went over the basic information about garments which we had already gotten in the temple-prep class, but he wanted to review it with me. When reviewing instances where it would be appropriate to remove them, he gave the example of swimming. He said something along the lines of “If you want to lay on the beach in your bikini, then lay on the beach in your bikini. Remove your garments.” I should have asked him if it meant that it was OK to wear a bikini, but I didn’t want to embarrass him. So whether it was a bikini endorsement or not, I can’t help but think that it really just shows how important this is in the grand scheme of things. I’ll worry about it more when I start to hear such comments regarding thongs. :)

I’m with Dan, and Maralise and Devyn, and almost everybody, I guess. I just don’t see this as a huge dilemma.
I’ve always been irritated when we start talking about modest dress in Relief Society and somebody makes the ((hugely self-righteous, in my opinion)that they never let their little girls wear sleeveless tops or bikinis.

Gag a maggot.

We start them out instilling shame and guilt practically from day one as we put more emphasis on form than substance.

I’ve seen sexually precocious girls dressed from head to toe and modest little girls in a bikini. It’s more a state of mind.

Not that I love when my grown girls boobs are hanging out. :) just sayin’

In answer to question 6–If this was the Aaronic Priesthood Meeting, would the segment be about a doctrinal issue instead of clothing?i> No, they would get something similar. It is interesting to me that girls seem to get so much counsel on clothing, and boys seems to be so much counsel on porn. These issues seem to be related, albiet, gender-specific messages both relating to the Law of Chastity.

Besides, I’m not sure how much doctrine teens can handle at their level of maturity. It is probably an age-appropriate message, and I like the idea that we can get our own answers, and that the brethren don’t need to spell out everything for us.

Kaimi,

Not with ya man. Most normal people don’t look all that great naked. There’s a reason most people have sex in the dark.

I haven’t read most of the comments so forgive me if I’m repeating…

But, please tell me that God has bigger things to worry about than showing belly button/no belly button, how many inches of thigh, etc is appropriate in a swim suit. Please tell me that we, as a church, have more important issues to talk about than a swimsuit. I mean, really, who cares? If one feel comfy wearing a certain swimsuit and someone else feels more comfy in another, then, by all means, go with your conscience and good judgement. I really can’t see bothering the Lord with something so petty and small and unimportant. I guess I respect the Lord’s time too much to go to him with such trivial questions. My Catholic husband mostly likes the church but thinks we are nuts with micromanaging minutia points. And when I see topics like this taught from the pulpit, I have a hard time trying to change his mind.

I didn’t see the YW conference, but frankly, to me it sounds great. If we empower YW to govern themselves, there will be no further lessons on clothing.

and yay to annegb.

There are huge pressures on our young women to become overtly sexual at earlier and earlier ages. I think it is completely appropriate for the conventional, secular wisdom on lack of modestly to be challenged from the pulpit. I know that there are young women out there who appreciate that their desire to not be sexualized is being validated and noticed.

A real question is, what is the reason for wanting to wear a bikini. I don’t know many YM who wouldn’t take pause at being instructed to only wear speedo type swimsuits (as is sometimes done in France for hygiene reasons). So why do YW feel the need to wear a bikini when, in most cases, you couldn’t bribe the YM to wear bikini briefs in public?

Is wearing a bikini an issue of salvation? Of course not. Are there a whole handful of issues and corollaries, that would impact our path to salvation, tied up in how we perceive our bodies and how we present them to others? I think so.

Lulubelle, #30

For every one 80 year grandma flouncing around topless on the beach in Côte d’Azur there are 50 judges in India willing to imprison George Clooney for kissing someone in public. Every culture has norms and taboos and saying that the Europeans are more enlightened about it is a silly trope. Besides, if you think that the French attitudes about personal appearance and sexuality are healthy and of good report, you weren’t paying very close attention while you were there.

Well, my last post came across a lot stronger than I meant it. Sorry, I’m not meaning to offend, simply trying to state my viewpoint.

MAC,

I am certainly not advocating that our youth go prancing on the beaches topless. However, I certainly don’t believe that of all the serious temptations out there and serious topics that can be discussed, what type of bathing suit shouldn’t even make the list. And doesn’t the Lord have bigger fish to fry than worrying about that? If our youth are taught general morals and good behavior, I guess I don’t see too many of them being tempted to frolick topless and in a g-string on a San Diego beach.

I would have felt spiritually OK as a young man with the Beehives and Laurels wearing two-pieces.

For whatever that’s worth.

Oops. Should have been ironic “quotation marks” around “spiritually OK.”

Am I the only one who’s never heard of anything called a “tankini”?

Mac,

I served my mission in France. One of the branches in which I served was right on the beach, and one P-Day the branch planned a beach party — they planned it on P-Day so the four of us Elders could come along. When we arrived, about half the women in the branch, including the Branch President’s wife and teenage daughter all went topless.

Us four young Americans were, to say the least, totally bewildered by this, and my poor little greeny companion from Provo who was only a month out of the MTC could not take it. In the best French he could muster he asked the Branch President to ask the woman to please get dressed. The BP responded with a laugh and said, “Elder, in France, we are comfortable in our skin.” None of the topless woman or girls put their tops on.

And, oh yea, every kid from the age of about nine and under spent the day buck naked.

To the original author,

Fantastic blog! Thank you. I certainly agree that there are more important issues out there that could / should have been tackled before swim sits. I’ve only lived on three continents, and I agree that the narrow topic of swim suits was culturally influenced.

None the less, the overall principle is terribly important, and I’m thrilled to see this topic being pushed. I’m not talking about swim suits and modesty now, I’m talking about studying out questions on our own and finding our own answers via study and prayer. This I can not applaud loudly enough. (It’s just too bad they didn’t choose a better issue.)

Guy Noir (#44) and various other commenters,

I just don’t get it. Rather than telling a bunch of girls what to wear a young women’s leader tells them to figure it out for themselves. An anonymous blogger poses a bunch of questions implying this was a bad idea and, amazingly, expresses dissatisfaction that a bright line rule wasn’t given. Commenters began debating whether girls ought to wear bikinis. You then complain about leaders looking for opportunities to dictate, taking away the thinking and decision making ability. It boggles the mind.

Bryan…ha ha ha..I don’t care what the young women wear. I wear a tankini because I have no desire to show off the “child marks”. Haha..no gasp from me. My whole point, and sorry for the confusion, was I love to encourage the youth to come to their own conclusion on whatever the subject matter is, clothing, school, marriage, mission, whatever, just ask the Lord and he will give you an answer. It is awesome to search things out. It makes for a good foundation when you have a deeper question that needs answered. That’s all.. still haha!

For those still wondering, A tankini is like a one-piece swim suit, but allows a gap for the belly button. Is is a 2-piece swim suit, but generally more modest than a traditional bikini. Essentially it is a combo “tank-top” crossed with a “bikini”–hence “tankini.”

I know all you women complain about talks over and over about clothing. For the boys, they obsess about porn, porn, and porn (mixed in with the m* word, which can happen after viewing porn.) I sympathize with you women, but they guys keep hearing the same messages too. And remember, not every guy views porn.

I guess the bloggernacle is the place to talk about other things, but then again, everyone here is obsessing about clothing, so I guess the GA’s must be onto something…. :)

Mormonism seems to attract & hold people who prefer a highly-scripted, highly-structured faith, people who ‘think outside the box’ need not apply for anything more than a casual relationship. The focus on details is one of many witnesses of this.

ESO (#56),

Thanks for the clarification. I’m happy with my choice of swimwear too. I recognize you are mostly just venting in your post.

Guy Noir (#55),

The benighted souls who have more than a casual relationship with Mormonism will struggle on–no doubt, I’m sure, due to their inability to think outside the box. With the help of more evolved creatures enlightening us with fresh, highly original criticisms (the opposite of highly-scripted natch) some few of us may manage to break out of the stiffling social conventions that prevent us from flying free. You know, kind of like the boys in Dead Poets Society. That scene at the end when they stood up and recited Whitman–that was awesome. With your trenchant observations you are kind of like the Robin Williams of the bloggernacle.

At least what I was referring to about healthy body images is that the French and others see the body as a body, not everything equating to sexual. They see a “breast” and not everyone gapes and stares. It’s just part of the body. I think that’s kind of healthy.

Since we are living in the US and we view bodies differently, it would actually be illegal to frolick topless on a San Diego beach (well, there’s a nude beach somewhere in that vicinity but not sure where). We can debate that issue on another thread.

And I stand by my statement: I could care less if a woman wears a bikini or a one-piece. Whatever you’re most comfortable in… Not sure why we have to go to God to ask such a trivial question. Gosh, should I ask God if I should wear the black strappy heels or the gold ones, too?

JC,

It isn’t a small portion, it exceeds rates reported in most, if not all, western countries (anorexia is mostly a a western, as in non-oriental, euro-centric health issue).

Lulubelle,

I just don’t agree that “the French and others see the body as a body, not everything equating to sexual.” It is an overly romantic and incorrect perception of what is going on.

But if you do subscribe to this line of thought, wouldn’t you be thrilled if your daughters stripped naked for their Saturday beach excursions during their exchange year in Europe? Wouldn’t that indicate that they have transcended their American-culture induced, stifling prudishness?

Lulubelle #59,

I totally agree with you. That’s probably one reason this whole bathing suit deal WASN’T dictated by the leadership. And that’s why the guidelines of the Church on the subject are general, at best. Not a big deal.

Let the French be French.

By & with their obsessive attention to DETAILS, LDS leaders trivialize the important parts of Christ’s gospel.

In Morland, love is a subset of obedience; in the rest of Christian thought, it’s the other way around.

JC,

I isn’t any less conclusive than the idea that since the French women go topless on the beach, the French are less obsessed with cleavage, butts, and the like.

The fact that European society is more open about sexuality and nudity in public doesn’t necessarily follow that it is healthier or more enlightened.

Mac, you’re the one who said “I would disagree that, collectively, the French’s relationship with the body is healthier than the American. Simply because they are less puritan? I don’t buy it.”

You offered no proof for this statement other than your opinion. When you posit something like this, you are the one with the responsibility to back it up with facts. So far I haven’t seen any.

You also argued that “public nudity, even in the absence of sexual arousal, [could still be] sexual behavior.”

I think Bryan is right; you’ve tipped your hand to your own difficulty in thinking of the unclothed body in anything but a sexual way. I think this is sad, but it is typical of many Americans. So with all due respect, you may not be the most authoritative commentator on French attitudes toward the body. Apparently Bryan has been there and has personal experience, so I would consider him and the French branch president he quoted more trustworthy on whether the French collectively have a healthier attitude toward the body than Americans do.

Personally, I have heard countless non-Americans from numerous countries mock the United States’ hypocritical swing toward neo-Puritanical hysteria that’s been in lock step with the flood of pornography also in the US. Seems to me the place is completely out of balance on this issue and it’s causing huge damage to countless lives. No other country seems to be as worked up over it as the Americans are. So maybe we really could learn something from the French.

And “if my daughters stripped naked for their Saturday beach excursions during their exchange year in Europe”, it would be fine with me. It would indeed indicate that “they have transcended their American-culture induced, stifling prudishness.” They are faithful to the gospel, know what real morality and modesty are, they don’t obsess over hem lengths, and I trust them to make their own decisions.

MAC: Thrilled to know that you got to see some boobs on the Mish

BRYAN: why is it that you turn this story into something sexual? From all of your comments, it seems that you are unable to separate the unclothed human body from sexuality.

MAC: You implied it yourself when you included the fact that one of the Elders was sensationalized by the event.

BRYAN: No. Wrong. Go back and read it again. I never said any of us were sensationalized by the event. YOU read that into my comments all by your self. Here’s what I said:

“Us four young Americans were, to say the least, totally bewildered by this, and my poor little greeny companion from Provo who was only a month out of the MTC could not take it.”

Nobody was sensationalized or aroused in the least. We found it culturally jarring and we thought at the time that they were being immoral and immodest. (I’ve since learned that it’s a cultural thing, not a moral or modest thing.) But we did not have to run and hide so the members would not see a bulge in our pants. In fact, it was remarkably nonsexual.

MAC: I don’t want to say that the unclothed human body cannot be separated from sexuality.

BRYAN: Good. Glad to hear it.

MAC: I would say that you would have a real hard time making the argument that displaying the unclothed human body to the opposite sex, in public, can be completely separated from sexuality.

BRYAN: I would say that this is a very cultural based statement. For most Americans, you are dead right. But please allow for the possibility that your view point is not THE ONLY view point, and people on other parts of the world may think otherwise, and this does not mean they are wrong.

JC,

You are right, it is an opinion. I never suggested it wasn’t. I also served a mission in France. I have my own French topless beach stories, I work for a French company and have lived in several different departments of France outside the admittedly myopic existence of a LDS mission.

But to say that “No other country seems to be as worked up over it as the Americans are” is a little naive. Try most of Asia, large swaths of Africa, most of Latin America … Pretty much everywhere except parts of Western Europe, their colonies and some tribal regions, maybe parts of Brazil. All-in-all a minority.

Bryan,

Nobody said the French are less or more healthy or enlightened.

Yes, someone did. Check out comment #30.

I don’t think that modesty can be excused as an American issue, culturally specific and of no consequence or issue to our youth. It is not isolated from the type of media/entertainment one sees, the attitudes and activities of ones social circle, or any number of other things that will pull an adolescent into activities that will either benefit them or end up having long term negative effects. It isn’t trivial and it is a concern of the Church leaders who are directing the youth programs of the Church.

P.S. I agree with you Mac that modesty is not just an American issue and it is of serious consequence to our youth. But if modesty is not a completely cultural construct that depends totally on circumstances and context, how do you explain the fact that a one-piece bathing suit which any YW leader would approve as “modest” today would have gotten its wearer arrested for indecent exposure 100 years ago?

JC,

No evidence, just experience from traveling widely and living overseas. But I could probably dig up an example outside the US for example that you give of “the witch hunts or the same level of paranoia or fear that seems to have grown up around this issue in the United States over the past 20 years.”

I don’t believe that the US is at the extreme end of the spectrum.

I do know that there are many cultural practices,both inside and outside the US, which make living gospel basics difficult for our youth. I think that basic modesty is one of the things that should be addressed. Along the spectrum, from wearing burka to nudity, drawing the line at one piece bathing suits is a wise decision.

Mac: “drawing the line at one piece bathing suits is a wise decision.”

Why?

MAC,

Just so you know… there are many one-piece suits out there that are more immodest than some bikinis. I wouldn’t draw that line in the sand for anyone. It shouldn’t be an issue– wear what feels comfortable to you based on where you’re at (I wouldn’t advocate wearing any swimsuit in Suadi, nor would I advocate going topless in San Diego, but in Brazil going topless is an option if one feels like it).

Bryan,

I understand and agree with you that modesty has a definition that encompasses more than physical appearance/dress. But this post is about the YW conference, and how swim suits were addressed.

And I don’t buy in to the cultural relativism/noble savege argument that because something is culturally acceptable somewhere, that it must be ok or even more authentic, for those inside that culture or out.

MAC: And I don’t buy in to the cultural relativism/noble savage argument that because something is culturally acceptable somewhere, that it must be ok or even more authentic, for those inside that culture or out.

BRYAN: Yes, we already knew that about you. Your culture is the only correct culture. Everyone else is a savage.

Guy Noir, Private Eye, apparently there’s no detail of our blog that is too trivial for you to bring your inconsiderable powers to bear upon. If you’re so convinced that women’s swimsuits are a matter for women, then what are you doing here? And how do you pretend to know the sex of the poster or the commenter? I piss on you and your descendants.

Bryan, 87

If you are going to go all ad hominem on me, all I’m gonna say is that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Mac, would you answer my question in #88 please.

JC, #93

I don’t think that the wisdom of a decision can be evidenced prior to the impact being known. If I tack a little “IMO” on the end of that statement?

“Other countries may be quite conservative, of course, but nobody else seems to have the witch hunts or the same level of paranoia or fear that seems to have grown up around this issue in the United States over the past 20 years.”

Where is your evidence that the US has entered an age of ultra-puritanism?

Lulubelle,

:-)

It’s April and there is still a lot of snow on the ground where I live, and a foot of ice on the lakes. What I would not give to jump in a lake of warm water with nothing on but my birthday suit!

Bryan, #94

sen•sa•tion•al – producing or designed to produce a startling effect, strong reaction, intense interest, etc., esp. by exaggerated, superficial, or lurid elements:

ad hominem (ad hominems)- an attempt to argue against an opponent’s idea by discrediting the opponent himself

Cultural relativism – is the principle that one’s beliefs and activities should be interpreted in terms of one’s own culture.

Noble savage – establishing exotic humans as morally superior

With all due respect, if you are gonna attack my person, there are a lot bigger faults to point out than my attitudes about modesty.

Bryan,

MAC,

There’s only one way to solve this.

A Dance-Off!

Bryan,

“I view you as being without credit. I no longer really care what you have to say” “Apparently you and those who think exacltly (sp) like you are the only people who know what they are talking about.”

Perfect.

Seth R.,

I’m in, as long as we choose a series of ethno-culturally appropriate dance styles.

I can’t dance with a guy who is so insecure that he needs to make himself feel better by pointing out typos. Jeesh, man. You really are arrogant, aren’t you.

“Expressions of pride and arrogance are nothing more then a cover up for feelings of self inadequacies.”– Marin J. Ashton.

Sorry Seth. All bets are off. I’m outa here — of to find a place to go skinny dipping. Thanks for a great blog, everyone else!

Opinionated: Your son sounds very self righteous when he “feels sorry for her” because… ? she doesn’t dress to his standard. Hmmm. Let me think about that one. Doesn’t sit well. Granted, I don’t like looking at anyone inappropriately dressed for the occassion, what ever that might be. But is he the one to know how one should dress according to their divine nature? Says who?

Seth: Thanks for the great laugh. I needed it on a Friday very unexciting day at work.

Bryan: Enjoy the skinny dip! I think I’ll be doing the same after my daughter goes to bed. Yeah!!!! Haven’t done that in a while (too long).

“2–If we make a whole segment about this, are we somehow amplifying the importance of the issue?”

You mean it isn’t the absolute most important issue facing LDS young women today? I thought it was. The last time I saw the instructions for what to bring to girls camp for my daughters there were several pages about “modesty in dress” and a short list at the end about what to actually bring to camp. I could only conclude that basic survival itself was not nearly so important as covering up. We wouldn’t want any of the girls to see any part of the other girls now would we? I’m surprised we haven’t adopted mandatory facial scarves.

“5–In a world-wide Church, is this a universal issue?”

I certainly hope not. But, what would the church be if didn’t export goofy American concepts of modesty and everything else?

“6–If this was the Aaronic Priesthood Meeting, would the segment be about a doctrinal issue instead of clothing?”

Doubtful, it would more likely focus on masturbation under some silly euphamism. We can’t have our boys growing up with anything but an inferior submissive attitude either. How would we maintain control and authority and abuse over them if we didn’t do that, to both the boys and the girls?

Lulubelle – you are missing the point. No he doesn’t feel sorry for her because she doesn’t dress modestly. He feels sorry for her because there are a variety of commandments she chooses not to keep because she just “doesn’t get it.” He has grown up with this girl and they sat in the same sunbeam class, primary program, standards night, youth fireside etc.

He feels bad that somehow, she hasn’t prayed (like in the video montage) and gotten her own testimony. Granted, he doesn’t know the level of her testimony and my point to him was that it isn’t his business, but his point is that if she had a testimony of her divine nature, her value, her role on earth, she would would probably keep a few more of the commandments.

Bryan – I agree with you that our lessons to youth need to go a little deeper and help them understand the bigger picture. But occasionally we do need to break it down to something simple…something little they can do today and can feel good about.

Opinionated: occasionally we do need to break it down to something simple…something little they can do today and can feel good about.

Bryan: Yup! Totally agree! When it comes to things like swim suits, hem lines, length of shorts, sleeveless dresses, etc. I just don’t see myself telling my kids to pray about it. I’ll give them my opinion, sure. And I’ll also council them that they most likely already know what kind of clothing to wear.

So far, with my own daughter who’s nine years old, none of this had been an issue. I know, I know… wait ’till she’s a teenager. But to date, she has shown a desire to be modest and to wear modest clothing. And I don’t think her mother or I have ever had to tell her to pray about it. Lemme think… Nope.

Like I said… teach them what kind of person to be, and the little things like what to wear will follow.

…And this is probably my last post of the day…

Bryan: I agree with your comments. I, too, try to teach my daughter how to dress appropriately and to wear clothes that flatter. The other day she comes out to the pool wearing a swimsuit that was just way too small. I didn’t need to preach about her divine nature. For the most part, we just gravitate to appropriate clothes. But I do let her wear sleeveless tops and two-piece swimsuits. I see dressing provacativey and inappropriately entirely seperate from tank top/no tank top.

Opinionated: where on earth might you suppose your son got the judgmental attitude….
Couldn’t be… No it couldn’t … or… Could it?

Oh come on Guy. Why be coy? I know you’re dying to say it.

The evil, ruthless, judgmental, petty, small-minded, white-shirt-wearing, marriage-ruining, band of old white men in the Church Office Building of course!

I mean, just look at them up there… with their dress codes, and their Handbook of Instructions, and their Honor Code… It’s obvious to anyone right?

Don’t hold back. I’m really looking forward to hearing you “stick it to the man” for about gazillionth time in the last three months.

Guy, the only person being simple-minded and judgmental here is you. There’s something feeble, and a little contemptible your behavior.

I could do what you’re doing anywhere. When I go to pick up my daughters from school, I could walk around and listen to other people’s conversations and sling the same generic insults that you’re offering here.

To a group of people talking about the Red Sox game: “Come on, people. Only Boston morons would waste time talking about something as trivial as baseball!”

To a group of peolpe talking about a sale on kids clothing at the mall: “You all are clearly spending way too much time contemplating how to dress your kids. You’re clearly too interested in outward appearances if you spend this much time talking about something so trivial.”

To a group of people talking about tuna casserole recipes: “Come on people! We’re talking about tuna casserole here! Who cares if you add cream of chicken and someone else uses cream of mushroom soup. How much time have you been discussing this?!?!”

If you actually mattered, people everywhere might have some day bemoaned the perpetuation of your genetic pattern among our species.

Guy Noir, if anyone is playing Simon Says, it’s you. Simon says this anti-Mormon thing, and you jump right in line. Simon says that anti-Mormon thing, and you jump right in line.

Maybe you wouldn’t be so worthy of contempt if Mormons hadn’t already heard exactly what you have to say over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in the exact same tired and repetitive “aren’t-I-so-clever” tone.

I’ll tell you what: You come back when you have something original to say against Mormonism, and then we’ll talk.

I told you guys… Ignore him. Every time you respond, it feeds his ego. I’ve dealt with him ad-nauseum before, and it all came to not. The ONLY way to shut him up is to give zero heed to what he has to say. No matter how much logic you use, no matter how much you throw his own words back at him, no matter how angrily you tell him off — all of it just feeds his ‘noir’ soul and encourages him to keep spewing his hatred.

Do yourself a favor. Pretend he does not exist.

So,

They called a completely new General Young Woman’s presidency in the morning session of conference today. Musta been because of that swim suit video, I bet!

:-)

LULUBELLE: I do let [my daughter] wear sleeveless tops and two-piece swimsuits. I see dressing provocatively and inappropriately entirely separate from tank top/no tank top.

BRYAN: Agree. Someone above (don’t feel like finding it) mentioned they’ve seen immodest people in one piece suits, and modest people in bikinis. This is a hard idea (at least for me) to put into words. Doing my best……

I love to people watch. Every other spring we go to Disney World and we always spend a day at one of the water parks. It’s a hoot to sit in the shade on a lawn chair and just watch the masses as they heard past, all in swim suits. My humble conclusion: Modesty has less to do with how much skin is showing, and more to do with how people try to draw attention to themselves. It’s in the walk… do they swagger and strut? Do they swing their hips? It’s in the talk…. Do they shout and argue in public? Do they holler to their friends who are 50 yards and 60 people away? Do they cuss and swear? It’s in their face…. do they sport a permanent scowl, like they are mad at the world? You get the idea.

For the most part, gratefully, the answer is “No” to all of the above. Most people are just there to enjoy the day, have fun in the water, and try to do so without drawing attention to themselves or to their family and friends. But not always. And, sadly, it’s usually the Americans who are the worst offenders at making themselves sorely self evident using the tactics mentioned above, and the Europeans who do the best at blending into the background.

And, I’ve noticed, the kind of swim suit a person wears has very little, if anything, to do with how they act.

“…man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.” (1st Samuel 16:7) ‘nuf said?

I ‘double dog dare’ any Ubers – NaziMos – TBMs to discredit or minimize that…

I liked it better when we were talking about swim suits and church videos and modesty. This is why I kicked Guy off my own forum – he single handedly turned it into a Mormons vs. Anti-Mormons forum.

Maybe I’m kicking a dead horse here by trying to keep this thread going, but if not, I have a question for all of you…

I was recently reminded that in the opening scene of the Disney movie PollyAnna which was released in 1960, there is a brief scene of a group of boys skinny dipping in a pond, with a shot of a boy swinging naked from a rope and dropping into the water.

Q: What do you think would be the response from the Christian Right if Disney were to release a movie today with a similar scene?

Q: What has changed between now and 1960 that would make this scene acceptable in 1960 but taboo in 2008?

Back then, and perhaps as recently as 20 years ago, skinny dipping was a right of passage. Now a scout leader would get in a lot of trouble if he knew his scouts were skinny dipping and didn’t put a stop to it. I’m not sure why this is. Perhaps it is the sexualization of our culture that has turned something innocent into something with the appearance of evil. I think there used to be less worry about being nekked in front of members of your same gender. Not sure what caused this change – fear of homosexuality? I really have no idea. I also don’t know whether I think this is a good or a bad thing.

Hard to believe in 1990 too.

I don’t think there was a 50-mile backpacking trip during which that I didn’t go skinny-dipping (late 80′s, early 90′s). I clearly remember one time shedding our backpacks after a long day’s hike and running for the lake, stripping as we went, one of those “last one in the water’s a rotten…” As we approached the water someone noticed people on the other side of the lake (we were in a very seculded area and didn’t expect to see anyone). When reference was made to the other people, someone shouted, “oh well, we can only lose by comparison!” We all laughed and kept running into the water.

Jota G #138 & BBell #134,

I was an active scout in the 80′s. But… how did I miss out on all of this? I feel very let down by my leaders!

Two summers ago I took a group of teachers and priests camping into the remote woods of northern Minnesota. Two of the boys went skinny dipping every day, and none of the leaders, least of all myself, did anything to stop them.

When we got home one their mother’s sought me out to apologize on her son’s behalf. She was clearly mortified and would not listen to me try and tell her that it was just not a big deal. I thought about telling her I only wished I could have joined them w/o fear of reprisal from the church and the BSA, but I stopped short.

Jota G:

“unfortunately”? are you sure about that?

Seriously,

5 naked dudes from behind from a distance jumping off a cliff. The picture was up for a couple of weeks until one of the moms took it down. You had to look really close to see that they were nekkid. Their swim trunks were in their hands

[begin sarcasm] I hope they all repented and abstained from the sacrament for a few weeks for being so immodest. I mean, really, how could they be so pornographic? [/end sarcasm]

In all seriousness, I do think it’s sad that we have become so caught up in this hysteria over the human body which, as we might recall, was created in His image. Going back up 145 comments to the original blog, I guess I am of the mind frame that a lesson to all the Young Women that it’s a good idea to pray about what kind of swim suit to wear may only add this these negative emotions.

Teach kids to think for themselves and to find their own answers. Absolutely. In the mean time, anyone want to soak in the buff with me at Diamond Fork Hot Springs this weekend? I think I’ll catch a Saturday morning session at the temple and then head up.

Gur Noir, Private Eye: Oh, and be sure to include the Beatitudes and Christ’s nearly identical preaching from Matthew 23 in your appraisal of the “b.s.” found in the Bible!! GO GUY GO!!!!

Since I’ve already specifically indicted Jesus for inciting centuries of virulent anti-Semitism, I can’t imagine why you’d think I’ll shy away from impugning the value of the Beatitudes.

Even so, you’re misreading the beatitudes. He’s not saying “look inside instead of looking outside.” He’s saying, “Go further than outside appearances, and focus on what’s in your heart as well.” This, by the way, is consistent with what I said when I said that what’s in your heart manifests itself in works.

Gur Noir, Private Eye: things in Morland have deteriorated – degenerated to the point where your POV is now the predominant one.

Say what you will about my degenerate position, you’re still unable to get on the better side of this argument.

(Not that I expect your continued and repeated argumentative losses to persuade you to come back into Jesus’s true church. It’s evident to me that you didn’t leave the church for rational reasons.)

I’m sure he’ll be thrilled. Banned by those evils Mormons for “speaking truth to power.” What a hero.

It’s like an obnoxious fly..full of crap and spewing garbage.

It was the mental picture of Bryan soaking nekkid in Diamond Fork Hot Springs that caused him to flee.

I’m a “First Amendment Freak”. I think when ppl put up a forum for comments, all comments (save those that defame/libel, etc) should be ‘welcome’.
If we start censoring ppls opinions, (I’m afraid) ‘There is no end’.
Lawyerly likes might be familiar with justice Douglas’ opinions re the First Amendment; try Spence v. Washington, Garrison v. Louisiana. For citizen activist types, try State ex rel Wallen v. Noe.
that said, I do believe that the LDS church’s (especially apolos) sayings (and views) have become much too legalistic. Unfortunately, this brings individuals to the point where they (I experienced this for myself, I KNOW) begin to justify harming & hurtful conduct / decisions-choices. Example: Hofmann.

In contrast, consider D&C 42:27 (one of the LDS scriptures I treasure): “Thou shalt not speak evil of thy neighbor, nor do him any harm.” … there’s just no picking that apart, is there?
I wish is was the standard of & enforced by LDS, Inc. today….(not just Lip Service)

Guy, wtf?

Two things here:

First, here’s the first amendment on freedom of speech:

Congress shall make no law… abridging the freedom of speech.

Let’s be perfectly clear: Mormon Mentality is not Congress.

Unless by “First Amendment Freak” you mean “someone who has a freakishly stupid notion of the First Amendment,” I don’t understand how you can call yourself a “First Amendment Freak.”

Second, we have not censored, edited, or otherwise tampered with any of your comments.

It’s obvious that you know less about freedom of speech than you know about Mormonism.

Random John (156) – I like the metaphor of the dinner party. So, is DKL’s response in 157 justified, given he’s the host of the party and is responding to what would appear to be, given the incoherence of his arguments, a guest who has overindulged in the table’s adult beverages? I think so.

Nasamomdele (154) – Now that was funny.

DKL (157) – How do you do those cool block quote things?

Guy,

You are nickel and diming and two centsing people to death here. At the rate you are going you are going to owe enough tithing that the Church will be able to buy all the offending YW one piece bathing suits.

Guy, I don’t begrudge you the expression of your opinions. I just don’t think they have any merit. My “freedom of speech” rights permit me to say so. You’ve yet to say anything to persuade me otherwise, and I’m guessing that others here feel the same way. You are truly a glutton for punishment.

Guy,

If we can’t reasonably-logically discuss

LOL! You’ve done neither, so it appears that we can’t.

Guy, so what wold you say is the purpose and proper structure of organized religion?

Every religion seeks to guide its membership in proper behaviors and norms, according to its belief system. There is no religion that is without values in these subjects, whether explicitly or implicitly through culture.

Such an assertion as you have made may be valid, but does not single out LDS as you might like. It necessarily must debase the value of every religious coin, and the scriptural and traditional foundations of religions, which are loaded with moral and ethical frameworks, including dress and grooming standards.

Guy, your comment #126 does not paint a picture of the LDS faith. It paints the picture of one wacky individual. What authority did that individual have to make a comment? And unless you’ve been worshiping with LDS for the past few months, you can’t reasonably say whether core essentials are getting less and less attention.

I’ve been in 4 wards in 4 years and only one of those wards had a focus on superficial things that you speak of. The rest were open and welcoming to most anything, as long as love, service, and accountability existed.

Of all the things I think we can glean from each other in proper discussion is the fact that we can ask “why?” to authoritative decisions. We can and ought to seek for reasoning and testimony. We ought not to throw the first punches in berating authority or turning from authority in a sort of act of condemnation. Every person deserves respectful dialogue, even those who seem to be guiding us a way we don’t agree with.

Less than one ward’s full congregation.

q: (a crude attempt at humor here, te he)
you Don’t mean ‘grin and bare it’ … or do you?

ah, the seemingly endless imaginations – “minds” of punsters….

Queuno,

My 7-year-old has this issue. She gets very nervous if her sun dress sleeves are too short. We haven’t made a big deal about things, we’ve taught generally about modesty. She is the one that has put the extra restrictions on herself.

We generally reteach the principle but tell her that if it makes her feel uncomfortable, then its fine to wear something else. I’m not going to discourage excessive modesty.

Grow up, Guy Noir, Private Eye. You’re the only one straining at gnats here. Everyone else is having a decent conversation and express their opinions. The fact that you find it trivial is, itself, more trivial than any opinion expressed here about swim suits.

After losing every argument that you’ve started here, you seem to be sticking around simply because it frustrates you that your opinions are banal, poorly stated, and un-compelling.

Once again, I piss on you and your descendants.

Guy, your comment #176 was insulting- a personal invective. Hypocrite. Your Christianity is very hateful and vengeful, my friend.

I have this mental picture of DKL inside the castle on “Monte Pyton and the Holy Grail” shouting at Guy, “I fart in your general direction…”

I’m laughing, and joining in.

Man, I google for Mormon girls in tankinis, and all I get is this blog post…

I’m wondering if Guy Noir should head back to Lake Webegon. Maybe some Powdermilk Bisquits would help.

Also, exactly how does one “frolic” and why can it only be done when not fully clothed?

ESO, if you’re still reading, I love this post! Thanks for putting it up.

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I should wear a speedo at the lake.

Do you mind if I quote a few of your posts as long as I provide credit and sources back to your blog? My blog site is in the very same niche as yours and my visitors would certainly benefit from some of the information you provide here. Please let me know if this okay with you. Thanks a lot!