all valid points & questions. In my years, the basics didn’t come thru because of the distractions.
In Morland, ppl are taught that the ‘plain & precious parts’ of Christ’s gospel were lost from the Bible. so, why look there? I flatter myself to think that I independently found these things thru the haze/ smoke & mirrors of the LDS presentation… Is that Totally unreasonable?
After many, many years of correlated talks & lessons, Tons of ambiguities & equivocation(s), and fluid approaches to what I thought were (gasp) fundamental subjects (birth control, cremation, others) I just had to give up.
“I couldn’t see the forest for the trees”
(It took a vicious divorce done by a “TBM” spouse to knock me out of the Nazi-Mormon mode.)
I’d be first to admit you may have ‘beat me’ time or age-wise(I’m early 60’s), but that isn’t exactly relevant, is it?

Again you fail to engage with the points being made, but I’ll respond to you regardless.

You can change the definition of meat all you want. I’ve already been where you’re going.

I’ve taught more than one lesson on the concept that the lists of commandments we obsess over are crap. The word of wisdom’s own text demeans it if you read it carefully. I’ve been saying for years that most of the commandments we worry so much about are training wheels and the real commandment is to become like Christ through serving others and developing true charity. If you have real Christ-like love as your motivation you are not only not going to be breaking trivial commandments but you’re going to be actively doing good in the world.

After one lesson the Bishop came up to me afterwards. I was somewhat concerned that he was going to contradict what I had said about commandments and LDS culture (note that it isn’t LDS doctrine I was attacking.) He did just the opposite.

If you want to see a conference talk with a similar theme (though without the word “crap” go look up Elder Oak’s “On Becoming” from a few years ago.

If you need more evidence of speaking about love, I was able to speak on Easter Sunday this year. I concluded my comments by reading all of I Cor 13, which I think nobody can get enough of.

So yes Guy, there are people teaching lessons on exactly the stuff you’re harping about. Lessons that cause people to engage with multiple accounts of the first vision. Lessons that ask people why our correlated materials are ahistorical. Lessons that call our obsession with little commandments crap and encourage us to see the big picture and develop love.

The question (which you keep refusing to address directly) is why is it that in a volunteer based church you weren’t the one teaching these lessons for the past 40 years? Did you want someone else to spoon-feed this to you? You failed yourself and your fellow saints if you saw this as a need and you ran away rather than take active steps to stand up for what you thought was important.

Was it fear of rejection that silenced you? Was it confusing LDS culture with the Christ’s gospel? What was it that shut your mouth? You certainly don’t have a problem opening it here!

In my humble estimation, the real ‘meat’ of Christ’s gospel is the lengths we are sometimes challenged to go to in order to live the Basics, which I count as Love for God & neighbor; especially when dealing with an obnoxious neighbor; a bully boss or teacher for your children; the soccer coach who thinks Only about tallying wins… (How about the scout troop that’s an Eagle factory, focused on numbers but not the participants?)

Remember the law of carnal commandments? simple stuff, in my estimation (although some didn’t like/didn’t conform)
Christ said: ‘A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another.’

Do ‘modesty’, the word of wisdom, earrings-tattoos, white shirts, coca cola come close to the commandments to Love?
let me know, O.K.?
Where Else could the meat be? I don’t have a clue…

It’s not that. It’s more a question of intellectual substance and follow through. I’m fine with the fact that your arguments start out weak, because part of the purpose of joining an argument is to test and strengthen arguments. The problem is that when your arguments get effectively rebutted, you do two things: (a) you fail to answer the rebuttals, and (b) you pretend that your argument still carries the same weight as those who have rebutted your points. You can’t have it both ways, and I wonder how smart you are based on your mistaken supposal that you can.

An illustrative argument that comes to mind is the one that you had with Arnold Layne about torture. You put forth your reasons for believing that the US was practicing torture. Arnold Layne rebutted your arguments in a way that arguably refuted them. Rather than answer Arnold Layne’s rebuttal or reformulate your argument, you simply continue to assert your position as though it still deserves the same consideration as the arguments that you haven’t answered. And when Arnold Layne concludes based on this that you’re a Moron, you say, “Well you’re just calling names now,” when he’s actually done far more argumentatively than you have.

So there’s this major problem with the fact that you don’t recognize that people are entitled to hold you in contempt for failing to answer their arguments and still pretending that you’re position should be treated with respect.

You’re never happy are you? It’s either too much milk (what you were complaining about above) or distracting meat (what seems to upset you now). You seem to be moving the target each time you have difficulty responding to the points others make.

I’m sorry that you’ve had experiences that have led you to feel that all LDS lessons are terrible. I’m even more sorry that once you began to feel that way you didn’t take active steps to make the lessons you participated in better.