PDOE,

Fascinating. This was my first feelings upon hearing of what was going on, which is why I couldn’t hop on the support wagon on Guy Murray’s blog. I think the state overreacted, but I also think that they were doing very reprehensible things in that compound and did not deserve any real protection.

He certainly chastened the Hebrews.

Indeed, the Holocaust was a doozy.

Despite pernicious notions to the contrary, there is limited utility in assuming that when terrible things happen, a divinely-sanctioned chastening is in progress.

Wow. The Holocaust has been invoked only three comments in. Is that some kind of record?

Which is why no people should ever assume they’re doing God’s work. That’s why I said that questioning was such an important part of being God’s tools.

I am absolutely NOT claiming that what is happening at the YFZ ranch is God’s will. I’m just thinking that it might be and taking that thought further into what it means to do God’s will in any situation. You will all note that I said it may be necessary, not is necessary.

I also said that knowing when and being willing to stop was important. Yeah, some people could take this “God’s Tool” idea as a reason to run rampant over anyone they don’t like but it’s not like that’s new. Joseph Smith had something to say about men who get a little bit of authority and then go on power-trips.

Proud Daughter of Eve-Great post. I’m a descendant of polygamists also but I never saw the Warren Jeffs “plight” as an extension of the religious freedoms fight of our fore bearers in the 19th century. Not the same at all to me for some of the reasons you’ve mentioned and others that I don’t really want to go into on a public forum like this. There’s several reasons I won’t jump on Guy Murray’s bandwagon either, and you highlighted them for me too.

The Holocaust has been invoked only three comments in. Is that some kind of record?

I don’t know, but you might be surprised how often it comes up when Hebrews and chastening are mentioned in the same breath. As a matter of fact, a missionary (from Germany no less) just the other day told me about how a great member of his home ward (an American living in Germany no less) gave a talk on just this subject–the Lord chastening the Jews via the Third Reich. I remember being told this in my priests quorum as well many moons ago. Hard to be believe, but for some reason the idea is remarkably prevalent in Mormon circles.

Disorienting feeling …

Don’t worry–this too shall pass ;)

Yes, Dan, I agree. The Holocaust does make it difficult to talk about the Lord chastening his people, not least because there are many who believe the Holocaust is part and parcel of His promise to do so; While the faithful should no doubt be aware that the Lord does indeed chasten his people, I suspect that outside observers tend to dramatically overestimate the occurrence of “Laban moments” in other people’s lives.

Wow. Exactly three comments and we’re into Godwin’s Law territory.

The D&C (and maybe the BoM too) says that the Lord “uses the wicked to punish the wicked.” And we know from the BoM and D&C that sometimes “the innocent suffer so that the wicked may be justly punished”. So just because someone suffers, doesn’t mean they are wicked.

So just because the Nazi’s were wicked, doesn’t mean the Lord was NOT using them for some purpose. We don’t know the Lord’s purposes in the Holocaust. We can only guess. One guess, for one partial purpose is the post-war creation of the state of Israel. Without the Holocaust, it is unlikely that the modern state of Israel would have been created in 1948. But that’s just a guess, and even correct, would be only a partial answer.

The Assyrians were a wicked nation when they conquered the Northern Kingdom.

The Babylonians were a wicked nation when they conquered Judah.

The Romans were a wicked nation when they conquered Palestine.

The Nazis/German government were wicked when they wiped out about 90% of Europe’s Jews.

To categorically state that the Lord couldn’t have been using the Nazis as part of His overall plan is just plain unsupported.

I don’t know of any definitive statements by modern prophets about the spiritual reasons of the Holocaust. We just don’t know for sure.

And though “being Jewish/Hebrew” was one of the outward “reasons” given by the Nazis for why they were slaughtered, (they were also alleged to be child molesters, and to have kidnapped/sacrificed gentile children and drank their blood, and to have “ruined” the German economy, to have been a filthy/loathsome people, etc., etc.). Jews were marginalized and demonized and made sub-human to the point where the average german citizen wanted them dead, or at least didn’t mind if they were killed off, and “got what they deserved.”

Kind of reminds me of the demonization of the Branch Davidians and FLDS. So when they were finally slaughtered/kidnapped, all the “good germans” say “Yeah, they probably deserved it, look at what they did.” And, “gee, our government wouldn’t lie about things that serious!”

The German gov’t demonized the Jews for YEARS, and eventually those repeated lies sank into the public consciousness.

And the “root causes” of why Hitler and the Nazis focused on Jews goes much deeper. Other reasoning goes like this: Hitler needed a scapegoat. He needed someone to blame for Germany’s condition. He needed an identifiable group against whom he could turn popular opinion, and use the issue to unite the German people under him. He needed a “Hegelian Dialectic”, ie, a “problem” for which his National Socialism, and for which putting him in power, would be “the answer.” “The Jewish Problem” was a common phrase.

Gypsies, homosexuals, and slavs were other targeted groups of the Nazis, and made to appear sub-human for the purpose of accumulating and solidifying Hitler’s power.

Again, the Hegelian Dialectic: create problems for which YOU are the solution, and for which YOU need more power given you from the people to solve. Do that, and the people willingly give you power. (Reminds me of the nanny state. “We need the gov’t to take care of us!”)

There are many more postulates one could make, but I’ve already trod too far into political incorrectness here.

I’m Jewish on my father’s side. I have a 2nd cousin (if he’s still living) who has his concentration camp serial number still tatooed on his forearm. My dad and grandfather had relatives who didn’t make it out. (My dad was born here, and my grandfather was born in Poland.)

So I feel for this issue as much as anyone. And I’ve often pondered what the Lord’s purposes were for the Holocaust.

For interesting takes on the Holocaust, by a Jew, check out the book “The Indestructable Jews” by Max I. Dimont.

I don’t know. Some of the mothers I saw interviewed seemed “very much with it”, almost contemptuous of the interviewer. What we often call “brainwashing”, you might also call “complete and utter devotion to a cause”.

Take out the polygamy and abuse. Is there anything that wrong about separating oneself from the world and creating your own society? Don’t we allow for that in this country? (Not that I advocate it, but I’m sympathetic to people having that right.)

I do think that we’ve seen the model for what could happen should the world continue to drift away from our Church’s standards, and people deem us a danger to society. What will save us is the fact that the Church has chosen to integrate with society, rather than completely separate.

queno: A query; at what point does the Church stop its integration with society? At some time the line must be drawn, and society will still continue away from Church Standards, more than likely. Thus, separation will logically occur,no? Do we avert this by seeking safety in further melding? Also, more than a few “Mainstream Christians” not only deny the LDS Church is Christian, but also make very little distinction between LDS & FLDS. “Do you believe that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God?” The answer makes it all one & the same to many Gentiles. Is SLC whistling past the graveyard in regard to this incident?

Queuno,

You said: “(What’s the net Church growth in Orange County or San Diego? + or -? Our ward has new CA move-ins every month. This is a case of a migration fueled by economic concerns, not social, but it’s an archetype, I think.)”

We left Orange County for both economic and social reasons. What’s interesting is that the economic conditions were the cause of the social denigration that prompted us to leave. As it became expensive to live in Orange County, the social values of the community changed as well. Money became even more important because you had to be more focused on it in order to make ends meet. With this, the community has fallen into the BOM pride cycle. People have gotten lifted up in the pride of their costly apparel and possessions (has anyone seen Real Housewives of Orange County – they live in the city where we lived). We had great friends in Orange County and a wonderful ward filled with wonderful, humble people, but you could see the influence of the pride cycle in the schools, amongst the youth and in the community. We didn’t want to be there for the inevitable fall (both economic and social).

Kimball accomplished a great deal in his own right, but one of his final legacies (aided and abetted by Hinckley when he was running things at the end) was to prepare the way for Benson’s ministry. Simply put, Benson’s push on the Book of Mormon wasn’t possible without Kimball’s emphasis on lengthening our stride.

From a PR perspective, I think that Hinckley taught us to all think more openly about society and relations with our neighbors, and I think that the stage is set for Monson to blow the doors open, so to speak. Just think how amazing it was that Hinckley was on Larry King and 60 Minutes — that was revolutionary. Now we hear that Elders Ballard and Cook (and before that Eyring and others) have been visiting with editorial boards around the country and we don’t really give it a second thought.