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	<title>Comments on: New twist in FLDS raid</title>
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	<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/04/18/new-twist-in-flds-raid.htm</link>
	<description>Thoughts and Asides by Peculiar People</description>
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		<title>By: Ben There</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/04/18/new-twist-in-flds-raid.htm/comment-page-1#comment-84006</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben There</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 10:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=798#comment-84006</guid>
		<description>aRJ and others:

Before repeating the age-old stories of 14 and 15 year olds marrying old men, being fed misinformation, and frightening them, I&#039;d like to suggest a few items to add to your reading list.

First off are the comments by &quot;FLDS Mother&quot; and &quot;Not a Lost Boy&quot; on Connor Boyack&#039;s post on the FLDS Raid Petition, located at http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/flds-petition-conclusion#comment-54741 and http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/flds-petition-conclusion#comment-54752 along with subsequent comments by said posters.

Next, take a look at the official bishop&#039;s list of households on the YFZ Ranch.  This list was confiscated by the Texas Rangers during the raid and entered into evidence in the hearings in mid-April.  Notice, no 14 or 15 or 16 year old brides.  Most of the 17 and 18 year old wives are monogamous wives of young men in their teens and twenties.  Notice also the large number of teenage males.  So much for baby brides and legions of lost boys.  While I hate that these people&#039;s family relationships and names are now widely available, I think this will actually help the FLDS people.  Grab the bishop&#039;s list at http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/BishopsList.pdf .

Next, read some of the posts by a former FLDS member who was disfellowshipped (as a result of sin, which he confesses on the blog) has his wife and children &quot;taken away&quot;, and yet he is posting a blog that is favorable toward the church that he still loves.  http://fldsview.blogspot.com.

Also, some of you might enjoy hearing the song written by Warren Jeffs, called &quot;Yearning for Zion&quot; (the namesake of the ranch).  Grab this partial MP3 of it, while you can: http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/DS/Warren_Jeffs_Searching_For_Zion.mp3

You can choose to believe or disbelieve, but for whatever it&#039;s worth, you ought to at least have both sides of the story. 

I, for one, am happy to see that the FLDS, after trying so hard to be quiet and private and not bother anyone, are coming out to tell their story, rather than letting a handful of disaffected former members-cum-novelists tell it for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>aRJ and others:</p>
<p>Before repeating the age-old stories of 14 and 15 year olds marrying old men, being fed misinformation, and frightening them, I&#8217;d like to suggest a few items to add to your reading list.</p>
<p>First off are the comments by &#8220;FLDS Mother&#8221; and &#8220;Not a Lost Boy&#8221; on Connor Boyack&#8217;s post on the FLDS Raid Petition, located at <a href="http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/flds-petition-conclusion#comment-54741" rel="nofollow">http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/flds-petition-conclusion#comment-54741</a> and <a href="http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/flds-petition-conclusion#comment-54752" rel="nofollow">http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/flds-petition-conclusion#comment-54752</a> along with subsequent comments by said posters.</p>
<p>Next, take a look at the official bishop&#8217;s list of households on the YFZ Ranch.  This list was confiscated by the Texas Rangers during the raid and entered into evidence in the hearings in mid-April.  Notice, no 14 or 15 or 16 year old brides.  Most of the 17 and 18 year old wives are monogamous wives of young men in their teens and twenties.  Notice also the large number of teenage males.  So much for baby brides and legions of lost boys.  While I hate that these people&#8217;s family relationships and names are now widely available, I think this will actually help the FLDS people.  Grab the bishop&#8217;s list at <a href="http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/BishopsList.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/BishopsList.pdf</a> .</p>
<p>Next, read some of the posts by a former FLDS member who was disfellowshipped (as a result of sin, which he confesses on the blog) has his wife and children &#8220;taken away&#8221;, and yet he is posting a blog that is favorable toward the church that he still loves.  <a href="http://fldsview.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://fldsview.blogspot.com</a>.</p>
<p>Also, some of you might enjoy hearing the song written by Warren Jeffs, called &#8220;Yearning for Zion&#8221; (the namesake of the ranch).  Grab this partial MP3 of it, while you can: <a href="http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/DS/Warren_Jeffs_Searching_For_Zion.mp3" rel="nofollow">http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/DS/Warren_Jeffs_Searching_For_Zion.mp3</a></p>
<p>You can choose to believe or disbelieve, but for whatever it&#8217;s worth, you ought to at least have both sides of the story. </p>
<p>I, for one, am happy to see that the FLDS, after trying so hard to be quiet and private and not bother anyone, are coming out to tell their story, rather than letting a handful of disaffected former members-cum-novelists tell it for them.</p>
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		<title>By: queuno</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/04/18/new-twist-in-flds-raid.htm/comment-page-1#comment-83972</link>
		<dc:creator>queuno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 05:46:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=798#comment-83972</guid>
		<description>Given that 18-year-olds and 19-year-olds are considered teenagers, what&#039;s the teen pregnancy rate at BYU?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given that 18-year-olds and 19-year-olds are considered teenagers, what&#8217;s the teen pregnancy rate at BYU?</p>
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		<title>By: a random John</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/04/18/new-twist-in-flds-raid.htm/comment-page-1#comment-83965</link>
		<dc:creator>a random John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 02:32:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=798#comment-83965</guid>
		<description>kathy,

There&#039;s blame to go around for this debacle.  If the FLDS community would cooperate with authorities and report abuses when they happen rather than try to manage such things internally if at all then it wouldn&#039;t have reached this point.  The deliberate decision of the community to isolate itself is seen by outsiders as an effort to also isolate victims and make investigation impossible.

I think most people think that putting 14, 15, and 16 year olds into &quot;spiritual marriages&quot; is not wholesome at all.  Especially when these girls have no factual knowledge of the outside world.  They&#039;ve been fed misinformation in order to scare them into remaining in the group.  If the choice is to follow the example of all those around you or face expulsion and damnation, what can we expect them to do?  What form of agency is this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kathy,</p>
<p>There&#8217;s blame to go around for this debacle.  If the FLDS community would cooperate with authorities and report abuses when they happen rather than try to manage such things internally if at all then it wouldn&#8217;t have reached this point.  The deliberate decision of the community to isolate itself is seen by outsiders as an effort to also isolate victims and make investigation impossible.</p>
<p>I think most people think that putting 14, 15, and 16 year olds into &#8220;spiritual marriages&#8221; is not wholesome at all.  Especially when these girls have no factual knowledge of the outside world.  They&#8217;ve been fed misinformation in order to scare them into remaining in the group.  If the choice is to follow the example of all those around you or face expulsion and damnation, what can we expect them to do?  What form of agency is this?</p>
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		<title>By: kathy</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/04/18/new-twist-in-flds-raid.htm/comment-page-1#comment-83961</link>
		<dc:creator>kathy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 00:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=798#comment-83961</guid>
		<description>&quot;Any excuse is good enough for a bully&quot;...
I don&#039;t think there are too many people who lead a more wholesome life than these people. Secular society should take a really close look at their own short comings before Lynching these innocent people. So much hate so much babbling about pedophiles. The people who yell the loudest about evil polygamous men seem to not care at all about the real suffering that the innocent women and children are enduring. For what ? To make the vindictive Flora Jessop happy and rich ? I can&#039;t see anything being accomplished by this except for a very bad precedent taking away the Constitutional rights of everyone in the country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Any excuse is good enough for a bully&#8221;&#8230;<br />
I don&#8217;t think there are too many people who lead a more wholesome life than these people. Secular society should take a really close look at their own short comings before Lynching these innocent people. So much hate so much babbling about pedophiles. The people who yell the loudest about evil polygamous men seem to not care at all about the real suffering that the innocent women and children are enduring. For what ? To make the vindictive Flora Jessop happy and rich ? I can&#8217;t see anything being accomplished by this except for a very bad precedent taking away the Constitutional rights of everyone in the country.</p>
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		<title>By: queuno</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/04/18/new-twist-in-flds-raid.htm/comment-page-1#comment-83224</link>
		<dc:creator>queuno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:04:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=798#comment-83224</guid>
		<description>No more pregnancies than you find in the average Dallas ISD high school...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No more pregnancies than you find in the average Dallas ISD high school&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ben There</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/04/18/new-twist-in-flds-raid.htm/comment-page-1#comment-83215</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben There</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:30:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=798#comment-83215</guid>
		<description>My belief from the start has been that the call was a hoax.  I believe that I will be proven correct.  This Rozie woman called Flora Jessop many times.  Flora has 30-40 hours of conversations with her.  Flora may be behind the hoax, though.  My internal jury is still out on that one.  

Notice how the state&#039;s case of &quot;numerous pregnant 13 year olds&quot; wound up actually being &quot;five pregnant under-18 year olds&quot;.  16 is the marriageable age.  Not unlikely that there will be a few 16-18 year olds pregnant, now is it???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My belief from the start has been that the call was a hoax.  I believe that I will be proven correct.  This Rozie woman called Flora Jessop many times.  Flora has 30-40 hours of conversations with her.  Flora may be behind the hoax, though.  My internal jury is still out on that one.  </p>
<p>Notice how the state&#8217;s case of &#8220;numerous pregnant 13 year olds&#8221; wound up actually being &#8220;five pregnant under-18 year olds&#8221;.  16 is the marriageable age.  Not unlikely that there will be a few 16-18 year olds pregnant, now is it???</p>
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		<title>By: danithew</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/04/18/new-twist-in-flds-raid.htm/comment-page-1#comment-82791</link>
		<dc:creator>danithew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 01:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=798#comment-82791</guid>
		<description>Guy Noir, I&#039;m not sure what you are aiming at in my previous comment.  I suspect you simply misread what I wrote.  I didn&#039;t use the word &#039;objectivity&#039; anywhere and I wasn&#039;t writing a criticism of journalists or about the topic of journalism.

Since you brought up the topic, I&#039;ll just say that you are correct in saying that everyone has a bias.  The issue that concerns me (in regards to what is going on between the FLDS and the Texas authorities) is whether the parties involved are honest or dishonest in nature.  Or I could put it in other words - some people attempt to be objective, fair, just, etc. while others act in complete disregard to such values.  

I think in this case, both the FLDS leadership &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; the Texas authorities have been dishonest and unjust - just not in the same way.  What isn&#039;t entirely clear yet is which side is worse.  It&#039;s a very complicated scenario and it may take awhile before the dust clears.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guy Noir, I&#8217;m not sure what you are aiming at in my previous comment.  I suspect you simply misread what I wrote.  I didn&#8217;t use the word &#8216;objectivity&#8217; anywhere and I wasn&#8217;t writing a criticism of journalists or about the topic of journalism.</p>
<p>Since you brought up the topic, I&#8217;ll just say that you are correct in saying that everyone has a bias.  The issue that concerns me (in regards to what is going on between the FLDS and the Texas authorities) is whether the parties involved are honest or dishonest in nature.  Or I could put it in other words &#8211; some people attempt to be objective, fair, just, etc. while others act in complete disregard to such values.  </p>
<p>I think in this case, both the FLDS leadership <i>and</i> the Texas authorities have been dishonest and unjust &#8211; just not in the same way.  What isn&#8217;t entirely clear yet is which side is worse.  It&#8217;s a very complicated scenario and it may take awhile before the dust clears.</p>
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		<title>By: Guy Noir, Private Eye</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/04/18/new-twist-in-flds-raid.htm/comment-page-1#comment-82769</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy Noir, Private Eye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:34:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=798#comment-82769</guid>
		<description>ah...aren&#039;t all ppl &#039;biased&#039; by their personal histories, education, etc.?

do you know someone/anyone who puts those completely aside when doing their job? HOW could that be???

being realistic suggests that we KNOW that others have different backgrounds &amp; therefore perspectives about things, doesn&#039;t it?

what boss would hire someone without the savvy to do the job WITH the skills, education, background they bring to the position/profession-occupation?  
Just who would that be???

I don&#039;t think readers/audiences are as dumb as you&#039;re suggesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ah&#8230;aren&#8217;t all ppl &#8216;biased&#8217; by their personal histories, education, etc.?</p>
<p>do you know someone/anyone who puts those completely aside when doing their job? HOW could that be???</p>
<p>being realistic suggests that we KNOW that others have different backgrounds &amp; therefore perspectives about things, doesn&#8217;t it?</p>
<p>what boss would hire someone without the savvy to do the job WITH the skills, education, background they bring to the position/profession-occupation?<br />
Just who would that be???</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think readers/audiences are as dumb as you&#8217;re suggesting.</p>
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		<title>By: job's friend</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/04/18/new-twist-in-flds-raid.htm/comment-page-1#comment-82766</link>
		<dc:creator>job's friend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:16:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=798#comment-82766</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s fine an dandy Guy, but the journalists/judges etc doesn&#039;t preface their remarks as, &quot;from my biased point of view&quot;.

They draft their stories and opinions in a way that makes it appear as fact. So pointing out that people are indeed biased is a valid thing. The retort, &quot;but everybody is biased&quot; does not excuse biases which are so blatant as to overlook certain facts and misrepresent a case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s fine an dandy Guy, but the journalists/judges etc doesn&#8217;t preface their remarks as, &#8220;from my biased point of view&#8221;.</p>
<p>They draft their stories and opinions in a way that makes it appear as fact. So pointing out that people are indeed biased is a valid thing. The retort, &#8220;but everybody is biased&#8221; does not excuse biases which are so blatant as to overlook certain facts and misrepresent a case.</p>
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		<title>By: Guy Noir, Private Eye</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/04/18/new-twist-in-flds-raid.htm/comment-page-1#comment-82760</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy Noir, Private Eye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=798#comment-82760</guid>
		<description>(I should say that ppl gave me the &#039;BIASED&#039;  raspberry-epithet..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(I should say that ppl gave me the &#8216;BIASED&#8217;  raspberry-epithet..</p>
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