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I thought the Sunstone article they linked to was very illuminating. My impression of the documentary was the producers felt like Mormonism was pretty cool if you could hack it, but can be brutal if you can’t. (Let me add here that I mostly liked the documentary overall, so take my comments in that context please.) So to hear Whitney say that she thought it was an example of radical religious commitment made her take on things make a lot more sense. Like Ellsworth, after studying up on him some more, it seemed like Tal Bachman was just as intolerant and unbalanced when has was a Mormon as when he wasn’t. I remember being puzzled when Margaret Toscano talked about how outraged she was when all these men were shaking her hand and telling her that they really liked her and appreciated her. “But you are excommunicating me!,” she says, in her interview. People can be forgiven if they mistakenly believe that at that disciplinary council she WAS excommunicated. But she wasn’t. My recollection was correct. You have to go to the unedited transcripts on pbs.org and read that Margaret Toscano was NOT excommunicated during that disciplinary council where everyone was so friendly. In fact, it wasn’t until ten years later that she left the Church, upon her own request. There is only so much you can do with editing and squeezing things in, but this left the wrong impression, I think. I also think this is another example of how new media can change things around. In the audiovisual media, they say something was “in the can” when it was complete and ready for broadcast/theatrical release. And when I worked in journalism at the University, we would say we put the paper “to bed” when it was finished and ready to send off to the printer. But thanks to the Internet, blogs, YouTube, and so on, nothing is ever put to bed. Nothing is in the can. It just keeps going, getting added to, commented upon, repurposed, remixed, and so on. Whitney can give us her “Director’s Cut” (which I’ll be very interested to watch), but on Northern Lights Rex Goode (and the other two commenters whose perspective never got aired) have given us the “Cut Participants” Cut, which adds yet another dimension, another facet, to “The Mormons”. On and on it goes. |
I’m also interested to see the Director’s Cut. |
You have to go to the unedited transcripts on pbs.org and read that Margaret Toscano was NOT excommunicated during that disciplinary council where everyone was so friendly. In fact, it wasn’t until ten years later that she left the Church, upon her own request. There is only so much you can do with editing and squeezing things in, but this left the wrong impression, I think. You’re mistaken. She was actually excommunicated; she didn’t leave on her own. From the transcript: “I was excommunicated in the year 2000. I was actually threatened with excommunication seven years before, which would be 1993, which was the famous September Six [the excommunication and disfellowshipping of six Mormon academics] and all of that. I was one of the first to be threatened with excommunications in the summer of 1993. … I received a letter from my stake president at the time. In this letter, I was told that I was not allowed to speak, discuss, publish, write about anything to do with church history or church doctrine or they would hold a court on me. Those things that they had asked me not to speak about were women in the priesthood and the Mormon idea or the Mormon concept of the Heavenly Mother. …” |
My impression of the documentary was the producers felt like Mormonism was pretty cool if you could hack it, but can be brutal if you can’t. That may be, in one sentence, the most truthful statement I can find that describes how most *members* and *converts* think about the Church, especially as it relates to culture. |
Dan E., I am interested in your comment and would like you to expand it. If this a threadjack, then start a new thread or email me. You said that your experiences with the atonement in the context of LDS church activity keep you in. Does that mean that other churches cannot provide you with atonement related expierences, eventhough they can provide you with everything else as you mentioned? What is unique about LDS activity as it specifically relates to the atonement? And why can’t you get that in another church? |
Too bad The Mormons wasn’t a full 24 episode season worth of documentary… |
I can understand the folks at Northern Lights dissappointment in not being included. FWIW, I did not feel particularly represented by the homeschooling CO family or the family whose mom died in childbirth. Every documentary is in fact an editorial, and ought not be thought as comprehensive. I liked THE MORMONS well enough, but it can’t have been EVERYTHING. I realize gayness is a hot topic, but it seems there are some others that are, in fact, bigger issues for more people in the Church. Like being hetero and single–that cuts a lot of people. My single sister was just telling me yesterday she was not Celestial material–she does not qualify as a single person. Sure, she was joking about it, but it is a major issue for many many more Mormons than homosexuality (and, of course, it is the issue that includes many gay Mormons–being (forced to be ) single in a family church. |
tiredmormon (5), You raise a vary good question. I believe it’s possible for people to experience the power of the Atonement in any number of churches, or outside of church altogether. I have seen a lot of examples of this. |
Yes, my memory is a bit muddled queno #3, but here is what I *was* remembering: |
By the time she was actually exed, she didn’t have much attachment or belief in it. Except that she hadn’t stopped writing about it or attacking it. She didn’t get excommunicated just because she was angry. In fact, the Church is more than willing to let people alone when they are hurt and angry and want to be left alone. But when you’re still taking positions of advocacy against the Church, no degree of deliberate separation should replace formal discipline. Any accounts from her are incredibly one-sided, because the Church won’t respond or tell their story. Take it with a grain of salt. (As you can tell, I don’t have a lot of respect for St. Margaret. I’m a closet fascist, I guess. I do have a family case of an unjust excommunication — and the First Presidency overturned it. I have more faith in a stake presidency and a high council than I do in the one-sided testimony of one who admitted she wouldn’t follow the counsel of her leaders.) |
It actually sounds like she may have avoided the court for some time- possibly due to her self-identifying as inactive. I see in her testimony the downfall of taking one issue and running with it. She couldn’t and wouldn’t let it go, regardless of what gaps there were in the doctrine she developed- she had to be the voice, the one to preach it. I get the feeling that if she really cared about girls and women in the Church, she wouldn’t have taken it so far and sought some way to use her intellect to support the Church instead of attack. ESO, you make a very good point about the single adults. I think the documentary was created for the non-LDS audience, and therefore it might not strike a hot enough chord. If they really dug, they might find that it often strikes one of the hottest chords in the Church. |
One of the three paramount reasons for holding a disciplinary hearing is to protect the good name of the Church. The disaffected forget that, as an institution, we’re more than willing to just leave them alone, if they’ll do the same. It seemed that it was a huge deal in 2000. Now, in 2008, a lot of people haven’t even heard of MT anymore, and I suspect that in a generation, she’ll be little more than a footnote and Bloggernacle darling. And maybe that’s how it should be. I was at BYU in the 1990s during the period when English and Anthropology had so many problems and were losing professors (in fact, an extended family member was marginally caught up in the periphery). And I never could understand how such supremely intelligent and gifted people could have botched their employment like they did. In both of my academic departments, there was writing and research and classroom conversations that went WAY beyond anything the deposed were saying, but we did it respectfully and our professors made sure that they took care of the basic things first to protect their employment. MT would have done great in my department — in fact, we read literature from artists that was more bold and more shocking than anything she said, and wrote term papers and had classroom discussions that would have made her seem conservative. She could have pursued 90% of what she wanted to pursue, but she just had to cross a certain line. It made her famous for a generation, I guess. |
There is certainly a lot of variety among the children of men. I have respect for those who come into this world with “baggage”, we all do to some extent, but many seem to carry a disproportional amount and yet have a testimony of the restoration and learn to rely on the Lord. |
For me, one of the great things of the atonement is that He understands my pain, my frustrations, and my trials, and despite it not making sense, despite it seeming contradictory at times, despite the trials caused by others’ mistakes and foibles, that in the end He has suffered for all those things. He understands, and appreciates, that I try to continue on when it seems pointless, or when it seems like I’m giving up an awful lot just to go on faith … It’s been said before — and I whole-heartedly believe it — that the Lord desperately wants us to seek and search and dig. He just doesn’t want us losing perspective over what we find and He doesn’t want us tearing down the Church with our misguided perspective. |
Dan E., Thanks for answering. For the record I was just curious, I meant no offense. |